C.P. Addition: Death date of Maud de Holand, wife of Waleran de Luxembourg, Count of Ligny and Saint Pol
Douglas Richardson
Waleran de Luxembourg, Count of Ligny and Saint-Pol, died at Ivois
Castle in Chiny 19 April 1415, and was buried in the church of Notre
Dame in that town. In May 1415 his widow, Bonne de Bar, then styled
Countess of Ligny and Saint-Pol, lady of Nogent-le-Rotrou, Gravelines,
and Nanteuil, took legal action to obtain the assignment of 6,000
livres of rent which was granted to her by her contract of marriage
dated 1393. In Feb. 1419, on the order of Jean, Duke of Brabant, she
was granted 3,000 livres in dower, to be drawn on the seigneuries of
Pernes, Valhuon, Lisbourg, Orville, Ruminghem, Bourbourg, Tingry, and
other places. On 23 Jan. 1423/4 Louis, cardinal-duc de Bar, confirmed
the village of Dun-sur-Meuse in Lorraine to his sister, Bonne de Bar,
Countess of Ligny and Saint-Pol for the term of her life. Countess
Bonne died in 1436.
Prior to his marriage to Bonne de Bar, Count Waleran married (1st) at
Windsor, Berkshire in Easter week, 1380 Maud (or Mahaut) de Holand,
Lady Courtenay, widow of Hugh de Courtenay, Knt., 3rd Lord Courtenay,
of Sutton Courtenay, Berkshire and Waddesdon, Buckinghamshire [see
Complete Peerage 4 (1916): 325 (sub Devon)], and daughter of Thomas de
Holand, K.G., Earl of Kent, by Joan of Kent (nicknamed Fair Maid of
Kent), daughter of Edmund of Woodstock, Earl of Kent. Maud de Holand
was the half-sister of King Richard II of England.
There is abundant evidence which proves the marriage of Maud de Holand
and Count Waleran de Luxembourg. For example, an account of their
wedding in 1380 "celebrated with a great crowd of trumpeters and
actors" may be found in Preest, Chronica maiora of Thomas Walsingham,
1376–1422 (2005): 104, which may be viewed at the following weblink:
Among other pieces of evidence, I find that Maud, Countess of Ligny
and Saint-Pol, was directly called “sister” by King Richard II of
England in 1390 [see Rymer, Fœdera 7 (1728): 675, which item may be
viewed at the following weblink: http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k934866.image.r=rymer.f692.langEN].
Elsewhere, [Maud], Countess of St. Paul [sic] is likewise styled
“king’s sister” in Cal. Patent Rolls, 1388–1392 (1902): 313, which
item may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/r2v4/body/Richard2vol4page0313.pdf
Curiously Pere Anselme identifies Maud, the first wife of Waleran de
Luxembourg as “Mahaud de Roeux” rather than "Maud (or Mahaud) de
Holand" [see Anselme, Histoire généalogique et chronologique de la
Maison Royale de France, 3 (1728): 724 (sub Ligny), which may be
viewed at the following weblink:
Anselme did not give his source for the name of Maud, wife of Waleran
de Luxembourg. As such, it has been a puzzle to me where he obtained
the name "Mahaud de Roeux" as being the wife of Count Waleran.
Recently, however, I located what maybe the source of Anselme's
statement.
The exact date of death of Maud de Holand, wife of Count Waleran, is
unknown. However, contemporary English records indicate that she was
buried at Westminster Abbey 23 April 1392. A more exact indication of
her date of death may be obtained from a newly located document
published in Cartulaire de l’Hotel-de-Ville de Boulogne-sur-Mer
(Mémoires de la Société académique de l’Arrondissement de Boulogne-sur-
Mer 13) (1882–6): 216, which may be viewed at the following weblink:
The document consists of a brief abstract of a charter dated 13 April
1392 issued by Waleran de Luxembourg, Count of Ligny and Saint-Pol,
seigneur of Fiennes, by which Count Waleran founded a perpetual chapel
in the church of Notre-Dame in the church of Boulogne-sur-Mer for the
health of his soul and that of his deceased wife, "Mahaut de Reus."
Count Waleran's wife, Maud de Holand, was buried just ten days after
this document was issued. As such, it would appear that Countess Maud
died shortly before 13 April 1392.
As stated above, we see here that Count Waleran refers to his wife as
"Mahaut de Reus," rather than "Maud de Holand." In England, she
surely would have been known as Maud de Holand or Lady Courtenay or
Countess of Saint-Pol. If anyone knows the explanation of the
appelation "de Reus," I'd certainly appreciate hearing their comments
here on the newsgroup.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Peter Stewart
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> Waleran de Luxembourg, Count of Ligny and Saint-Pol, died at Ivois
> Castle in Chiny 19 April 1415, and was buried in the church of Notre
> Dame in that town.
Most authorities give 19 August as the date of his death, including
Claude Bonnabelle in 'Étude sur les seigneurs de Ligny de la maison de
Luxembourg' - I have also seen 19 March, though I can't recall where.
Do you have a primary source for 19 April?
<snip>
> Curiously Pere Anselme identifies Maud, the first wife of Waleran de
> Luxembourg as “Mahaud de Roeux” rather than "Maud (or Mahaud) de
> Holand" [see Anselme, Histoire généalogique et chronologique de la
> Maison Royale de France, 3 (1728): 724 (sub Ligny), which may be
> viewed at the following weblink:
>
> http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k76035h.image.r=Histoire+de+la+M...
>
> Anselme did not give his source for the name of Maud, wife of Waleran
> de Luxembourg. As such, it has been a puzzle to me where he obtained
> the name "Mahaud de Roeux" as being the wife of Count Waleran.
> Recently, however, I located what maybe the source of Anselme's
> statement.
>
> The exact date of death of Maud de Holand, wife of Count Waleran, is
> unknown. However, contemporary English records indicate that she was
> buried at Westminster Abbey 23 April 1392. A more exact indication of
> her date of death may be obtained from a newly located document
> published in Cartulaire de l’Hotel-de-Ville de Boulogne-sur-Mer
> (Mémoires de la Société académique de l’Arrondissement de Boulogne-sur-
> Mer 13) (1882–6): 216, which may be viewed at the following weblink:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=TeoTAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA469&dq=Lyonnel+Fie...
The citation is incorrect - 'Cartulaire de l'Hotel de Ville...' ends
on p. 88 of the issue and the extract of Waleran's charter on p. 216
is in 'Cartulaire de l’église abbatiale Notre-Dame de Boulogne-sur-
Mer, ordre de Saint-Augustin, 1067–1567', edited by Daniel Haigneré.
As for "newly located", Haigneré explicitly quoted the extract from
the Preuves of Duchesne's _Histoire généalogique de la maison de Bar-
le-Duc_ (1631), so it has been on the record for centuries.
> The document consists of a brief abstract of a charter dated 13 April
> 1392 issued by Waleran de Luxembourg, Count of Ligny and Saint-Pol,
> seigneur of Fiennes, by which Count Waleran founded a perpetual chapel
> in the church of Notre-Dame in the church of Boulogne-sur-Mer for the
> health of his soul and that of his deceased wife, "Mahaut de Reus."
> Count Waleran's wife, Maud de Holand, was buried just ten days after
> this document was issued. As such, it would appear that Countess Maud
> died shortly before 13 April 1392.
>
> As stated above, we see here that Count Waleran refers to his wife as
> "Mahaut de Reus," rather than "Maud de Holand." In England, she
> surely would have been known as Maud de Holand or Lady Courtenay or
> Countess of Saint-Pol. If anyone knows the explanation of the
> appelation "de Reus," I'd certainly appreciate hearing their comments
> here on the newsgroup.
After her marriage Maud was dame of Roussy - this had belonged to
Waleran's cadet branch of the Luxembourg family since 1270.
Peter Stewart
John
> On Oct 21, 1:19 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
>
> > Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> > Waleran de Luxembourg, Count of Ligny and Saint-Pol, died at Ivois
> > Castle in Chiny 19 April 1415, and was buried in the church of Notre
> > Dame in that town.
>
> Most authorities give 19 August as the date of his death, including
> Claude Bonnabelle in 'Étude sur les seigneurs de Ligny de la maison de
> Luxembourg' - I have also seen 19 March, though I can't recall where.
> Do you have a primary source for 19 April?
>
>
FWIW (not necessarily very much), the latest version of the Luxemburg
table in ESNF (vol. 1.2, table 231) gives the death date as 22 April
1415 and the place of death as Château d'Yvoy (rather than "Ivois
Castle"). Schwennicke gives a long list of sources for the table as a
whole, but the source for this particular info cannot be readily
identified. The earlier edition of ESNF (6:128) gave the death date
as 19 March.
Douglas Richardson
On Oct 20, 4:49 pm, Peter Stewart <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:
< > Waleran de Luxembourg, Count of Ligny and Saint-Pol, died at Ivois
< > Castle in Chiny 19 April 1415, and was buried in the church of
Notre
< > Dame in that town.
<
< Most authorities give 19 August as the date of his death, including
< Claude Bonnabelle in 'Étude sur les seigneurs de Ligny de la maison
de
< Luxembourg' - I have also seen 19 March, though I can't recall
where.
< Do you have a primary source for 19 April?
Thank you for your comments.
Secondary sources vary as to the death date of Count Waleran de
Luxembourg. It probably depends on what contemporary record was used
by any particular author. I believe I used a chronicle as my source
for his death date. The chronicle could well be right (or wrong),
depending on other contemporary sources. I'll check on the matter
again tomorrow and see what I find.
< The citation is incorrect - 'Cartulaire de l'Hotel de Ville...' ends
< on p. 88 of the issue and the extract of Waleran's charter on p. 216
< is in 'Cartulaire de l’église abbatiale Notre-Dame de Boulogne-sur-
< Mer, ordre de Saint-Augustin, 1067–1567', edited by Daniel Haigneré.
Thank you for the correct citation. I suspected I had the wrong title
of the publication. I checked the title page of this volume not once
but three times to make sure that this volume contained the Cartulaire
de l’Hotel-de-Ville de Boulogne-sur-Mer, which of course it does. As
you know, most English periodicals will contain a table of contents if
the journal in question contains more than one section. There was no
table of contents for this journal.
< As for "newly located", Haigneré explicitly quoted the extract from
< the Preuves of Duchesne's _Histoire généalogique de la maison de
Bar-
> le-Duc_ (1631), so it has been on the record for centuries.
Newly located means new to me and Complete Peerage, not the entire
world. In the crazy world of genealogy, the English don't talk to
the French who don't talk to the Germans who don't talk to the
Spanish.... and so forth. Something can be well known in sources in
one country but unknown in another. An example of this is the burial
date and place of Maud de Holand taken from English records. The
French sources seems to be oblivious to this information, which is
certainly no surprise.
As far as it goes, I still don't have an exact death date for Bonne de
Bar, 2nd wife of Waleran de Luxembourg. I assume somewhere there is a
contemporary source which gives it.
'
< > As stated above, we see here that Count Waleran refers to his wife
as
< > "Mahaut de Reus," rather than "Maud de Holand." In England, she
< > surely would have been known as Maud de Holand or Lady Courtenay
or
< > Countess of Saint-Pol. If anyone knows the explanation of the
< > appelation "de Reus," I'd certainly appreciate hearing their
comments
< > here on the newsgroup.
<
< After her marriage Maud was dame of Roussy - this had belonged to
< Waleran's cadet branch of the Luxembourg family since 1270.
Yes, I'm aware that the Luxembourg family held Roussy, but I'm not
sure that Roussy is intended by Reus. Do you have an example of Maud
de Holand being styled "dame of Roussy?" If so, please state your
reference(s). I had thought of the possibility that Roussy was the
place intended, and you may well be right. However, it is also
possible that an English locality named Reus is intended and that this
was her place of birth. Maud's step-father, for example, was known
as Edward of Woodstock, Woodstock being his place of birth.
DR
Peter Stewart
<snip>
> As stated above, we see here that Count Waleran refers to his wife as
> "Mahaut de Reus," rather than "Maud de Holand." In England, she
> surely would have been known as Maud de Holand or Lady Courtenay or
> Countess of Saint-Pol.
Froissart said that the English went on calling her "madame de
Courtenay" even after she had become the countess of Saint-Pol.
Alex Maxwell Findlater
> > The exact date of death of Maud de Holand, wife of Count Waleran, is
> > unknown. However, contemporary English records indicate that she was
> > buried at Westminster Abbey 23 April 1392. A more exact indication of
> > her date of death may be obtained from a newly located document
> > published in Cartulaire de l’Hotel-de-Ville de Boulogne-sur-Mer
> > (Mémoires de la Société académique de l’Arrondissement de Boulogne-sur-
> > Mer 13) (1882–6): 216, which may be viewed at the following weblink:
>
> >http://books.google.com/books?id=TeoTAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA469&dq=Lyonnel+Fie...
>
in Mémoires de la Société académique de l'arrondissement de
Boulogne ..., Volume 1 By Société académique de l'arrondissement by M
R Platrier, the secretaire annuel, starting on p 77 and going on past
p 88, but with no charters. Incidentally the table of contents is at
the back of the book, as is common in many French books.
Peter Stewart
"Alex Maxwell Findlater" <maxwellf...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9a67dd5f-e6a9-4a0a...@t20g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
> >http://books.google.com/books?id=TeoTAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA469&dq=Lyonnel+Fie...
>
> There seems something wrong with this link, as it brings up a lecture
> in Mémoires de la Société académique de l'arrondissement de
> Boulogne ..., Volume 1 By Société académique de l'arrondissement by M
> R Platrier, the secretaire annuel, starting on p 77 and going on past
> p 88, but with no charters.
It might be better to try the Gallica version at
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5629382p.image.r=M%C3%A9moires+de+la+Soci%C3%A9t%C3%A9+acad%C3%A9mique+de+Boulogne-sur-Mer.langEN.f218.pagination
Peter Stewart
Douglas Richardson
I checked online last night and pulled up various secondary sources
regarding the death date of Waleran de Luxembourg, Count of Ligny and
Saint-Pol. The first four sources I examined gave different death
dates for Count Waleran, these dates being 1414, April 1415, 9 April
1415, and 19 April 1415. Several sources stated in agreement that
Count Waleran left a will dated 15 April 1415. Mémoires de la Société
des Lettres, Sciences et Arts de Bar-le-Duc 2 (1872): 141 further
stated that in May 1415 Waleran's widow, Bonne, then styled Countess
of Ligny and Saint-Pol, lady of Nogent-le-Rotrou, Gravelines, and
Nanteuil, took legal action to obtain the assignment of 6,000 livres
of rent which was granted to her by her contract of marriage dated
1393. If the dates of Count Waleran's will and his widow's legal
action are correctly dated, then Count Waleran would necessarily have
to have died sometime between 15 April 1415 and May 1415.
Mémoires de la Société des Lettres, Sciences et Arts de Bar-le-Duc 2
(1872): 141 may be viewed at the following weblink:
Only two secondary works actually gave their source for Count
Waleran's death date, it being same source: Chronicles of Enguerrand
de Monstrelet. As such, I pulled up an English language version of
Monstrelet and quickly found the desired passage. It may be viewed at
the following weblink:
Monstrelet specifically states that Count Waleran fell ill in the
castle of Yvoix in Chiny on 9th April 1415 and "about twelve days
after, he departed this life" Assuming Monstrelet has his facts
correct, this would place Count Waleran's death as 21 April 1415.
That date would fall between the date of Count Waleran's will and the
legal action of his widow, Bonne. So that is good.
Strangely, however, none of the secondary sources I've consulted give
this death date [21 April 1415], even though two sources cite
Monstrelet as their source for Count Waleran's death date. I believe
Monstrelet is correct, but the most reliable sources and Complete
Peerage give 19 April 1415. Comments are invited.
Douglas Richardson
For "If the dates of Count Waleran's will and his widow's legal action
are correctly dated," read "If the dates of Count Waleran's will and
his widow's legal
action are correctly stated,"
DR
Peter Stewart
"Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:165ed0bc-9ce2-4ddf...@j2g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
<snip>
> Monstrelet specifically states that Count Waleran fell ill in the
> castle of Yvoix in Chiny on 9th April 1415 and "about twelve days
> after, he departed this life" Assuming Monstrelet has his facts
> correct, this would place Count Waleran's death as 21 April 1415.
> That date would fall between the date of Count Waleran's will and
> the legal action of his widow, Bonne. So that is good.
According to the edition of Monstrelet by Louis Douët d'Arcq, vol. 3 p. 67,
Waleran fell ill at Yvois on 10 April 1415 and died around 12 days later
("Le Xe jour d'avril, l'an dessusdit mil quatre cens et quinze, Walerant,
conte de Saint Pol et de Ligny, soy disant encores connestable de France,
acoucha malade dedens le chastel de Yvvis...et environ douze jours après
fina sa vie"). The editor noted a variant copy reading 9 April instead of
10 - so from this source all we can say is that Waleran reportedly died ca
21/22 April 1415. However, for such a prominent person there are most likely
to be other records.
> Strangely, however, none of the secondary sources I've consulted give
> this death date [21 April 1415], even though two sources cite
> Monstrelet as their source for Count Waleran's death date. I believe
> Monstrelet is correct, but the most reliable sources and Complete
> Peerage give 19 April 1415. Comments are invited.
They are probably taking this information from Art de vérifier les dates.
There is also considerable confusion in secondary works about the dates of
his second marriage and the death of his widow Bonne de Bar.
According to Calmet in Histoire de Lorraine, vol. 1 col. ccxcviii, Bonne was
married to Waleran on 2 June 1400, made her will in 1436 and died around
that time.
The year of her death may be correct, but not the year of her marriage. 29
September 1392 is sometimes given for this, following Duchesne's Histoire
généalogique de la maison de Bar-le-Duc (1631), Preuves p. 66, where he
gives an extract noting that the wedding was celebrated during the feast of
Saint Michael in that year ("La nopce de Monsr. de Ligny et de Madame sa
femme de firent durant la feste de Saint-Michiel").
However, other authorities (including Vincent Servais in Annales historiques
du Barrois and Philippe Smyttère in Les ducs de Bar, ou seigneurs et dames
de Cassel de la maison ducale de Bar) settle on May 1393 for some reason.
But from another source the wedding appears to have taken place at
Saint-Mihiel in Verdun some five or six years later that that, see
Inventaire-sommaire des Archives départementales antérieures à 1790: Meuse,
vol. 1 p. 266 (1398/99): "Mariage de Bonne de Bar avec le comte de Ligny;
les noces se font à Saint-Mihiel".
Harrau in Histoire de Gravelines, Bulletin de l'Union Faulconnier, Société
historique de Dunkerque 3 (1900) p. 246 said that Bonne died ca 1402 but
this is clearly wrong as she was living in 1430 when she was named in the
will of her brother Louis, cardinal de Bar. Calmet seems to have been right
about the year of her own will, see Inventaire des titres enlevés de la
Mothe (1634) in Recueil de documents sur l'histoire de Lorraine 1 (1857), p.
65 no. 9: "Deux coppies du testament de Bonne de Bar, comtesse de Ligny.
L'an 1436."
She died on 12 February according to the obit she had arranged at
Saint-Mihiel in Verdun, "Bonne de Bar, contesse de Liney et de Saint-Pol,
donna pour son anniversaire quarente francs", see Les nécrologes de l'abbaye
de Saint-Mihiel, edited by Charles Aimard in Mémoires de la Société des
lettres, sciences et arts de Bar-le-Duc 44 (1922-1923), p. 53.
It would be worth knowing what dates and sources Georges Poull gave in La
maison souveraine et ducale de Bar (Nancy, 1994), which I haven't seen -
does anyone have access to a copy?
Peter Stewart
Douglas Richardson
Checking around for further contemporary records of the 1415 death of
Waleran de Luxembourg, Count of Ligny and Saint-Pol, I've located a
contemporary chronicler allegedly named Pierrre de Fenin, which work
covers the events in France and Burgundy which occured in the reigns
of King Charles VI et Charles VII (1407-1427). According to an
internet source, these "mémoires" are written in dialect of Picardy,
and have wrongly been ascribed to Pierre de Fenin (died 1433) "ecuyer
et pannetier de Charles VI." They were taken from MS. no. 10319.3 in
the Bibliothèque nationale in Paris.
I found the "Mémoires de Pierre de Fenin" publlished in Choix de
Chroniques et Mémoires sur l'Histoire de France (1835): 546, et seq.
They may be viewed at the following weblink:
The record of the death of Waleran de Luxembourg is found on page
558. It reads as follows:
Year: 1415
"En suite ce comte demeura à Ivuy tout le caresme, et là tenoit ses
gens avec lui. On environ quinze jours après Pasques, it lui print
une maladie, dont il mourut. Il fut entrerré dans la grande église de
Ivuy ..."
The author states that Count Waleran fell ill "about" the 15th day
after Easter in 1415, from which illness he died. That date would be
15th April 1415. The author does not state the Count Waleran died on
April 15th, only that he fell ill on that date. Monstrelet dates the
onset of Count Waleran's last illness as April 9th or 10th, and states
he died about twelve days afterwards. If we follow use Monstrelet's
statement, then the Fenin material would suggest that Count Waleran
fell ill on April 15th and died on 27 April 1415. Thus, the death
date is slightly off from Monstrelet but certainly in the same week.
However, to be specific, Fenin's comments do not preclude Count
Waleran from having died on 15th April. He says only that he fell ill
on 15th April. It is Monstrelet who says the illness lasted 12 days.
Elsewhere I found on the internet an alleged picture of Count Waleran
and his wife, Maud de Holand, which may be viewed at the following
weblink:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Waleran_maud.jpg
This comes from a wikipedia biography of Count Waleran which may be
viewed at the following weblink:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wal%C3%A9ran_III_de_Luxembourg-Ligny
So we may not know the exact dates of death of Count Waleran and his
two wives, Maud and Bonne, but we at least know what Count Waleran and
Maud looked like. I'm sure Leo van Pas will like that!
Peter Stewart
"Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:80cc761d-8182-4858...@p26g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
<snip>
> I found the "Mémoires de Pierre de Fenin" publlished in Choix de
> Chroniques et Mémoires sur l'Histoire de France (1835): 546, et seq.
> They may be viewed at the following weblink:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=9_U5AAAAQAAJ&pg=PA558&dq=Chronique+Waleran+Comte+1415&hl=en&ei=FArBTMmIJIaPnwfc6YjrCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&sqi=2&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false
>
> The record of the death of Waleran de Luxembourg is found on page
> 558. It reads as follows:
>
> Year: 1415
It is actually placed under the year 1414, at the end (i.e. Easter style,
recounting events that began in Lent).
There is a new edition of Pierre de Fénin's chronicle (which may have been
used as a source by Monstrelet) in _Mémoires des règnes de Charles VI et
Charles VI, 1407-1425, edited by Nathalie Desgrugillers-Billard
(Clermont-Ferrand, 2009). I haven't seen this - perhaps at this point she
noted some other source/s for the date of Waleran's death.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
"Peter Stewart" <pss...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:i9t3g1$j19$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
The source for 19 April 1415 turns out to be an excellent one - this is Jean
Le Fevre, seigneur of Saint-Remy (died 1468), who was king-of-arms of the
order of the Golden Fleece of which Valeran was a knight. No doubt the order
kept accurate records of its knights' obits.
He copied from the chronicle of Enguerrand Monstrelet, but added a precise
date for the death of Valeran, "Le XIXe jour d'avril, mil IIIIe et XV,
mourut en la ville d'Ivix, en la duchie de Luxembourg, le conte Walleran,
conte de Ligny et de Saint-Pol, soy-disant encores connestable de France".
Peter Stewart
Derek Howard
> "Peter Stewart" <pss...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
>
> news:i9t3g1$j19$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
>
>
>
>
> > [cross-post removed]
>
> >news:80cc761d-8182-4858...@p26g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
>
> > <snip>
>
> >> I found the "Mémoires de Pierre de Fenin" publlished in Choix de
> >> Chroniques et Mémoires sur l'Histoire de France (1835): 546, et seq.
> >> They may be viewed at the following weblink:
>
>
> >> The record of the death of Waleran de Luxembourg is found on page
> >> 558. It reads as follows:
>
> >> Year: 1415
>
> > It is actually placed under the year 1414, at the end (i.e. Easter style,
> > recounting events that began in Lent).
>
> > There is a new edition of Pierre de Fénin's chronicle (which may have been
> > used as a source by Monstrelet) in _Mémoires des règnes de Charles VI et
> > Charles VI, 1407-1425, edited by Nathalie Desgrugillers-Billard
> > (Clermont-Ferrand, 2009). I haven't seen this - perhaps at this point she
> > noted some other source/s for the date of Waleran's death.
>
> The source for 19 April 1415 turns out to be an excellent one - this is Jean
> Le Fevre, seigneur of Saint-Remy (died 1468), who was king-of-arms of the
> order of the Golden Fleece of which Valeran was a knight. No doubt the order
> kept accurate records of its knights' obits.
>
> He copied from the chronicle of Enguerrand Monstrelet, but added a precise
> date for the death of Valeran, "Le XIXe jour d'avril, mil IIIIe et XV,
> mourut en la ville d'Ivix, en la duchie de Luxembourg, le conte Walleran,
> conte de Ligny et de Saint-Pol, soy-disant encores connestable de France".
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
However, Waleran was not a knight of the Golden Fleece and Le Fevre,
who was writing in the 1460s, generally sound, is far from without
error. In 1415 Le Fevre was a young pursuivant, apparently with the
English during the Agincourt campaign. The Order of the Golden Fleece
was not established till 1430. If we are to attribute validity to Le
Fevre's statement it must surely be on the grounds that he knew
intimately those other members of the Luxembourg family who were later
Knights of the Golden Fleece, in particular his contemporary Jean de
Luxembourg the son of Waleran.
Derek Howard
Peter Stewart
"Derek Howard" <dho...@skynet.be> wrote in message
news:f9c183eb-0265-4855...@j18g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 23, 4:14 am, "Peter Stewart" <pss...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> "Peter Stewart" <pss...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
> > Jean
> > Le Fevre, seigneur of Saint-Remy (died 1468), who was king-of-arms of
> > the
> > order of the Golden Fleece of which Valeran was a knight. No doubt the
> > order
> > kept accurate records of its knights' obits.
> >
> > He copied from the chronicle of Enguerrand Monstrelet, but added a
> > precise
> > date for the death of Valeran, "Le XIXe jour d'avril, mil IIIIe et XV,
> > mourut en la ville d'Ivix, en la duchie de Luxembourg, le conte
> > Walleran,
> > conte de Ligny et de Saint-Pol, soy-disant encores connestable de
> > France".
> >
> Peter Stewart
>
> who was writing in the 1460s, generally sound, is far from without
> error. In 1415 Le Fevre was a young pursuivant, apparently with the
> English during the Agincourt campaign. The Order of the Golden Fleece
> was not established till 1430. If we are to attribute validity to Le
> Fevre's statement it must surely be on the grounds that he knew
> intimately those other members of the Luxembourg family who were later
> Knights of the Golden Fleece, in particular his contemporary Jean de
> Luxembourg the son of Waleran.
Thanks Derek - doubly wrong on my part, since Valeran was not a knight of
the Golden Fleece and could not have been anyway...
As for the reliability of Le Fevre on this point, do you know of instances
where he followed Monstrelet but then introduced error in his specific
amendments/additions?
I wonder if historians have actually taken the date from him anyway - I've
not seen him cited for this, and surely there must be obituaries where
Valeran's death is recorded, though I haven't yet found one in print.
Peter Stewart
Douglas Richardson
Thank you for your erudite comments regarding the death date of
Waleran de Luxembourg, Count of Ligny and Saint-Pol.
I've done some additional digging regarding this matter and have
located references to Count Waleran in Nicolas Vignier, Histoire de la
Maison de Luxembourg (1619). The work by Vignier may be viewed at the
following weblink:
On page 705, Vignier states: "Lequel comte trespassa le 9. d' Avril
1415. & la dite comtesse 1461." No sources are cited for this
statement.
On pages 597-598, Vignier gives an abstract of the will of Waleran de
Luxembourg. He specifically states the will was made in the year 1415
"le 15. iour d'Auril, iceluy estant malade, etc."
Presuming Vignier has correctly dated the will, it would appear that
Count Waleran was living 15 April 1415, he then being ill. This date
would be in harmony with both Monstrelet and Jean Le Fevre both of
whom indicate that Count Waleran died shortly after 15th April.
Peter Stewart
> Dear Peter and Derek ~
>
> Thank you for your erudite comments regarding the death date of
> Waleran de Luxembourg, Count of Ligny and Saint-Pol.
>
> I've done some additional digging regarding this matter and have
> located references to Count Waleran in Nicolas Vignier, Histoire de la
> Maison de Luxembourg (1619). The work by Vignier may be viewed at the
> following weblink:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=l-wOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PT590&dq=Waleran+Comte+1415&hl=en&ei=9hrCTNvCM4KbnAf0ufn1CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CEwQ6AEwCDhQ#v=snippet&q=1414&f=false
>
> On page 705, Vignier states: "Lequel comte trespassa le 9. d' Avril
> 1415. & la dite comtesse 1461." No sources are cited for this
> statement.
It would be more accurate to say "On page 705, Vignier is quoted as
stating..."
Nicholas Vigner (or Vignier) died in 1596 - the notes in the edition of 1619
that you found were by Nicholas Georges Pavillon, and the italics in note
(n) on pp. 704-705 indicate quotations. Vigner relied heavily in this part
of his work on *Trait� des nobles et des vertus dont ils sont form�s* by
Fran�ois de L'Alou�te (1577).
> On pages 597-598, Vignier gives an abstract of the will of Waleran de
> Luxembourg. He specifically states the will was made in the year 1415
> "le 15. iour d'Auril, iceluy estant malade, etc."
>
> Presuming Vignier has correctly dated the will, it would appear that
> Count Waleran was living 15 April 1415, he then being ill. This date
> would be in harmony with both Monstrelet and Jean Le Fevre both of
> whom indicate that Count Waleran died shortly after 15th April.
Why would you presume Vigner had correctly dated the will when he said that
Waleran died six days beforehand?
This is yet another of the many secondary works that do not provide a
verifiable source for the date of Waleran's death.
By the way, Bonne de Bar almost certainly did not survive until 1461. Her
will was dated 1436 and she died on 12 February, most likely in the same
year (Annunciation or Easter style, 1437 new style). The last we hear of her
apart from that is when she went to live in Metz in 1433 according to the
chronicle of Jacques d'Esch ("Et en l'an mil IIIIc et XXXIII dame Bonne,
fille du duc Roubert de Bair que fuit seconde femme de sgr. Wallerant conte
de Liney en Berrois et conte de St. Poul en Piquardie, laquelle n'avoit nulz
enffens, et fist semblabement qu'elle olt une maxon en Metz et l'ameublait
et se si venoit embaitre quant boin li sembloit").
Peter Stewart