Ancestry of Shah Ismael I of Persia
Frank H. Johansen
xxxxxxxxxxx
1. Ismael I, Shah of Persia, d. 1524
2. Haydar Safavi, Sultan, d. 1488
3. Halima Begun
6. Uzun Hasan, Khan of the Aq-Qoyunliu, d. 1478
7. Theodroa Komnena
14. Ionannes IV, Emperor of Trapenzunt 1429, d. 1459
15. A Turkish Lady
28. Alexios IV, Emperor of Trapezunt 1417, d. 1429
29. Tehodora Kantakuzene, d.1426
56. Manuel III, Emperor of Trapezunt 1390, b. 1364, d. 1417
57. Gulkhan Eudokia of Georgia or Anna Philanthropene
112. Alexios III, Emperor of Trapezunt, b. 1338, d. 1390
113. Theodora Kantakuzene
224. Basileios, Emperor of Trapenzunt, 1332, d. 1340
225. Eirene
448. Alexios II, Emperor of Trapezunt, b. 1283, d. 1330
449. Djuadjak of Samatzhke
896. Ioannes II, Emperor of Trapezunt, b. 1262/3, d. 1297
897. Eudokia Palailogina, d. 1301/2
898. Bekha Jaqueli ata, Beg of Samatzkhe
899. ?
1792. Manuel I, Emperor of Trapezunt, b. 1218, d. 1263
1793. Eirene Syrikaina
1794. Michael VIII, Emperor of Byzantz, b. 1224/5, d. 1282
1795. Tehodora Dukaina Batatzaina, b. 1240, d. 1303
3584. Alexios I, Emperor of Trapezunt, b. 1182, d. 1222
3585. Theodora Azuchina
3588. Andronikos Dukas Komnenos Palaiologos (!), Gov. of Thessalonica,
d. after 1246
3589. Theodora Palailogina
3590. Ioannes Batatzes, b. 1215, d. ?
3591. Eudokia Angelina
7168. Manuel Komnenos, b. before 1152, d. after 1185
7169. N.N. of Georgia
7180. Isaakios Dukas Batatzes, d. 1261
7181. ?
14336. Andronikos I Komnenos, Emperor of Byzantz, b. 1123/4, d. 1185
14337. N. Palaiologa
14338. David IV, King of Georgia
14339. ?
14360. Basileios Batatzes, Duke of Thrace, d. 1193
14361. N. Angelina
28672. Isaakios Komnenos, b. ca. 1093, d. after 1152
28673. ?
28722. Isaakios Angelos, Military Governor of Cilicia
28723. ?
57334, 114890. Alexios I Komnenos, Emperor of Byzantz, b. 1048/57, d.
1118
57335, 114891. Eirene Dukaina, b. 1066, d. 1123
57444. Konstantinos Angelos, Admiral of Sicilia, d. ca. 1166
57445. Theodora Komnena, b. 1096
114688. Ioannes Komnenos, b. 1015, d. 1067
114689. Anna Dalassene of Italy
114690. Andronikos Dukas, d. 1077
114691. Maria of Bulgaria, d. after 1089
114890. =57334.
114891. =57335.
229376. Manuel Komnenos, d. 1020
229377. ?
229378. Alexios Charon, Prefect of Italy
229379. ?
229380. Ioannes Dukas, d. 1088
229381. Eirene Pegonitissa
229382. Trajan, Prince of Bulgaria
229383. ?
458760. Andronikos Dukas, living 1020
458761. ?
458764. Ivan Vladislav, Tsar of the Bulgarians, d. 1018
458765. Marija
917528. Aaron of Western Bulgaria, d. 987/8
917529. ?
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
When I've only used Paul Theroff's genfiles, there probably are a lot of blancs to fill in here...... Could there possibly be a chance of a link back to great old Charlie somewhere? And what about the connections to the Georgian Kings?
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
In Paul's file on the Byzantine families, I've found several connections
to muslim and other asian families:
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3.3.3.1.Ioannes Komnenos Tzelepes, a Mohamedan and a noted scholar;
m.1st 1131 a dau.of Leon, Lord of the Mountains; m.2d 1140 a dau.of Sultan
Mas'ud of Rum.
3.3.3.1.1.Isaakios Komnenos, d.under torture
3.3.3.1.2.Suleiman Shah, may have had descendants, who were Moslems
xxxxxxxxxx
(Underlined)
1.2.3.1.Alexios II, Emp in Trapezunt 1297-1330 (1283-1330); m.1300 Djiadjak,
dau.of Bekha Jaqueli ata, Beg of Samatzkhe
1.2.3.1.1.Andronikos III, Emp in Trapezunt 1330-2, murdered 1332; m.
NN
1.2.3.1.1.1.[illegitimate]Manuel II, Emp of Trapezunt for 8 months
in 1332; b.1323/4, murdered 1333
1.2.3.1.2.Basileios, Emp in Trapezunt 1332-40, poisoned 1340; m.1st
1335 Eiren Palaiologina, Empress of Trapezunt 1340-1; m.2d, bigamously,
Eirene, a lady from Trapezunt, who was the mother of his kids
1.2.3.1.2.1.Alexeios Megas Komnenos (1337-ca 1349)
1.2.3.1.2.2.Alexeios III, Emp in Trapezunt 1349-90; (1338-1390); m.1351
Theodora Kantukuzene
1.2.3.1.2.2.1.Basileios Megas Komnenos (1358-1377)
1.2.3.1.2.2.2.Manuel III, Emp in Trapezunt 1390-1416; (1364-1417);
m.1st 1377
Gulkhan=Eudokia, dau.of King David VII of Georgia; m.2d 1395 Anna Philanthropene
1.2.3.1.2.2.2.1.Alexios IV, Emp in Trapezunt 1417-29, murdered 1429;
m.1395 Theodora Kantakuzene (d.1426)
1.2.3.1.2.2.2.1.1.Ioannes IV, Emp in Trapezunt 1429-59, had to pay
tribute to Sultan Mohammed II, d.1460; m.1st ca 1426 a dau.of King Alexander
of Iberia; m.2d before 1438 a Turkish lady
1.2.3.1.2.2.2.1.1.1.Theodora Megale Komnene, d.after 1478; m.1458 Uzun
Hasan khan Aqqeyunlu
1.2.3.1.2.2.2.1.2.Skantarios Megas Komnenos, d.1454/9; m.1437 <aria
Gattilusia, who was taken into the harem of Sultan Mohammed II in
1461
1.2.3.1.2.2.2.1.2.1.Alexios Megas Komnenos, b.1454, beheaded 1463
1.2.3.1.2.2.2.1.3.David, Emp in Trapezunt 1459-61, beheaded 1463; m.1st
1429 Maria, dau.of Pr Alexios of Gothia; m.2d before 1447 Helene
Kantakuzene
1.2.3.1.2.2.2.1.3.1.,2,and 3.--3 sons, named Basileios, Manuel and
Georgios, who were beheaded in 1463
1.2.3.1.2.2.2.1.3.4.Anna Megale Komnene (1447-after 1463); m.1462 Zagan
Paya
1.2.3.1.2.2.2.1.3.5.a dau., m.Mamia de Gourie, from Georgia
1.2.3.1.2.2.2.1.4.Maria Megale Komnene, d.of the Plague 1439; m.1427
Emperor Ioannes VIII of Byzantium
1.2.3.1.2.2.2.1.5.Theodora Megale Komnene; m.ca 1422 Osman beg Kara
Iluk, Khan of Aqqoyunlu
1.2.3.1.2.2.3.Eudokia Megale Komnene; m.1st 1379 Ta Jeddin, emir
of Limnia (d.1386); m.2d Konstantinos Dragas, a Serb
1.2.3.1.2.2.4.Maria Megale Komnene; m.Suleiman beg, Emir of Chalybia
1.2.3.1.2.2.5.a dau., m.Mutakharten, Emir of Erzincan
1.2.3.1.2.2.6.Anna Megale Komnene (1357-after 1406); m.1367 King Bagrat
V of Georgia 1.2.3.1.2.2.7.[illegitimate]Andronikos Megas Komnenos, b.1355,
d.after being thrown from a tower 1376
1.2.3.1.2.2.8.[illegitimate]Ioannes Megas Komnenos
1.2.3.1.2.3.Maria Megale Komnene (1328-1408); m.1352 Fahreddin Kutlug
beg, Khan of Aqqoyunlu
1.2.3.1.2.4.Theodora Megale Komnene; m.after 29 Aug 1358 Hajj-Omar,
Emir of Chalybia
1.2.3.1.3.Michael Azachutlus Komnenos, murdered by his brother Andronikos
1330
1.2.3.1.4.Georgios Achpugas Komnenos, mureder by his brother Andronikos
1330
1.2.3.1.5.Anna Anachutlu Komnene, a nun, became Empress in Trapezunt
1341-2, strangled to death 1342
1.2.3.1.6.Eudokia Komnene, may have m.Adil beg ibn Yakub Kandaride
xxxxxxxxxxxx
1.8.[illegitimate]Euphrosyne=Eirene; m.1266 Nogaj Chan, of the Golden
Horde (d.1293)
1.9.[illegitimate]Maria Palaiologina; m.1265 Ilchan of Iran; m.2d the
Turkish Pr Charbanden
xxxxxxxxxxxx
How much is actually known of these connections. Did they have any descendants, any (famous) descendants living today?
FHJ
William Addams Reitwiesner
You do realize that your message was cross-posted, accidently I hope, to a
collection of newsgroups where it was irrelevant and off-topic. I have
corrected this error.
You realize that your message was also posted in both cleartext and in
HTML. I trust you will correct this error in the future.
"Frank H. Johansen" <frank.j...@hm.telia.no> wrote:
>Here's what I've found on the ancestry of Shah Isamel I of Persia:
>
>xxxxxxxxxxx
>
>1. Ismael I, Shah of Persia, d. 1524
>
>2. Haydar Safavi, Sultan, d. 1488
>3. Halima Begun
>
>6. Uzun Hasan, Khan of the Aq-Qoyunliu, d. 1478
>7. Theodroa Komnena
>
>14. Ionannes IV, Emperor of Trapenzunt 1429, d. 1459
>15. A Turkish Lady
>
>28. Alexios IV, Emperor of Trapezunt 1417, d. 1429
>29. Tehodora Kantakuzene, d.1426
>
>56. Manuel III, Emperor of Trapezunt 1390, b. 1364, d. 1417
>57. Gulkhan Eudokia of Georgia or Anna Philanthropene
57 could *not* be Anna Philanthropene (check the chronology). Alexios IV
was born during Manuel III's marriage to Gulkhan/Eudokia. The question is
whether Alexios IV was legitimate or not. Cyrille Toumanoff, *Manuel de
Genealogie et de Chronologie pour l'histoire de la Caucasie Chretienne*
[Roma: Edizione Aquila, 1976], at 113.15 (p. 507) says that 57 was
Gulkhan-Khatun/Eudocia, and provides her ancestry starting at 22.13 (on p.
126).
58. Theodoros Kantakouzene [Schwennicke III:197]
>112. Alexios III, Emperor of Trapezunt, b. 1338, d. 1390
>113. Theodora Kantakuzene
>
>224. Basileios, Emperor of Trapenzunt, 1332, d. 1340
>225. Eirene
226. Nikephoros Kantakouzene, sebastocrator [Schwennicke III:197]
>448. Alexios II, Emperor of Trapezunt, b. 1283, d. 1330
>449. Djuadjak of Samatzhke
>
>896. Ioannes II, Emperor of Trapezunt, b. 1262/3, d. 1297
>897. Eudokia Palailogina, d. 1301/2
>898. Bekha Jaqueli ata, Beg of Samatzkhe
"Ata beg" was his title. See Toumanoff at 38.10 (p. 205) for him and his
ancestry.
>1792. Manuel I, Emperor of Trapezunt, b. 1218, d. 1263
>1793. Eirene Syrikaina
>1794. Michael VIII, Emperor of Byzantz, b. 1224/5, d. 1282
>1795. Tehodora Dukaina Batatzaina, b. 1240, d. 1303
>
>3584. Alexios I, Emperor of Trapezunt, b. 1182, d. 1222
>3585. Theodora Azuchina
>3588. Andronikos Dukas Komnenos Palaiologos (!), Gov. of Thessalonica,
>d. after 1246
>3589. Theodora Palailogina
>3590. Ioannes Batatzes, b. 1215, d. ?
>3591. Eudokia Angelina
>
>7168. Manuel Komnenos, b. before 1152, d. after 1185
>7169. N.N. of Georgia
7178. Alexios Komnenos Palaiolos, d. 1201-4 [Schwennicke III:198]
7179. Eirene Angelina
>7180. Isaakios Dukas Batatzes, d. 1261
>7181. ?
7182. Ioannes Komnenos Angelos [Schwennicke II:179]
>14336. Andronikos I Komnenos, Emperor of Byzantz, b. 1123/4, d. 1185
>14337. N. Palaiologa
>14338. David IV, King of Georgia
>14339. ?
14358. Emperor Alexios III [Schwennicke II:179]
14359. Euphrosyne Dukaina Kamaterina
William Addams Reitwiesner
wr...@erols.com
"Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc."
Leo van de Pas
>When I've only used Paul Theroff's genfiles, there probably are a lot of
>blancs to fill in here...... Could there possibly be a chance of a link
>back to great old Charlie somewhere? And what about the connections to
>the Georgian Kings?
>
Charlemagne 742-814
I
Louis the Pious, 778-840
I
Lothar I, Emperor, 795-855
I
Ludwig II, Emperor, 825-875
I
Ermengard, 853-896
I
Guille/Wille de Provence, 878-
I
Rudolf II, King of Burgundy
I
Aelis/Adelheid of Burgundy 931-999
I
Otto II Holy Roman Emperor 955-983
I
Mathilde of Saxony
I
Richeza de Lorraine
I
Richeza/Ryksa of Poland 1018-1052
I
Laslo I, King of Hungary, 1044-1095
I
Eirene/Piroska of Hungary
I
Theodora Komnena 1116-
I
NN Anemas
I
NN Angelos
I
Ioannes Komnenos Angelos
I
Eudoka Angelina
1222-
I
Theodora Dukaina Komnena
1240-1303
I
Eudokia Palaiologina
I
Alexios II
Emperor in Trapezunt
1283-1330
I
Basileios Megas Komnenos
Emperor in Trapezunt
I
Alexios III
Emperor in Trapezunt
1338-1390
I
Manuel III
Emperor in Trapezunt
1364-1417
I
Alexios IV
Emperor in Trapezunt
1382-1429
I
Ioannes IV
Emperor in Trapezunt
1403-1460
I
Theodora Megale Komnena
I
Haydar Safavi
Sultan
I
Ismael I
Shah of Persia
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
** Leo van de Pas ** Centraal Bureau http://www.cbg.nl
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Home Page : http://www.iinet.net.au/~leovdpas/genealogics.html
Frank H. Johansen
William Addams Reitwiesner wrote:
> You do realize that your message was cross-posted, accidently I hope, to a
> collection of newsgroups where it was irrelevant and off-topic. I have
> corrected this error.
>
> You realize that your message was also posted in both cleartext and in
> HTML. I trust you will correct this error in the future.
Sorry, and sorry! In my newsreader (Netscape Messenger) I can only see the
regular text, with no HTML. But I do recall getting a question about HTML when
I posted it. I don't remember what I answered though..... I was in a hurry,
and just clicked the "OK" button...........
Thanks for the info!
FHJ
Frank H. Johansen
Well, well, look at that!
Now we can add a vast number of Persians and others in the Middle East to the
list of Charlemagnes descendants!
Thaks for the info, Leo!
FHJ
D. Spencer Hines
Rott just can't resist the impulse to chastise someone when he sees the
opportunity.
A nettlesome character indeed.
Thank you for your most interesting post, Frank. I was not inconvenienced
in the least.
D. Spencer Hines
--
"Well, that's what I mean. You know, if all the people who are named
...deny it....That's all, I mean, I expect them to come looking into it and
interview you and everything, uh, but I just think that if everybody's on
record denying it you've got no problem.....I wonder if I'm going to be
blown out of the water with this. I don't see how they can...if they don't,
if they don't have pictures."
Governor Bill Clinton --- Telephonic Advice to Gennifer Flowers [1991]
William Addams Reitwiesner wrote in message
<34e1862a...@news.erols.com>...
Richard Borthwick
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Home Page : http://www.iinet.net.au/~leovdpas/genealogics.html
>
>
but it is commonly thought that she was dau. of Boso king of Burgundy by an
unknown 1st wife and not by his 2nd wife Ermengarde dau. of Louis II. Willa
is not given as a daughter of Boso and Ermengarde by K F Werner in "Die
Nachkommen Karls des Grossen" in W Braunfels (General ed) *Karl der Grosse:
Lebenswerk und Nachleben* Band V (1965). [ES III/4:736, II:189 corrected in
III/1 in the Correction section at the end; E Hlawitschka "Die
Thronkandidaturen von 1002 und 1024. etc" in K Schmid (ed). *Reich und
Kirche vor dem Institurstreit* (Thorbecke, Sigmaringen, 1985) 55].
Leo van de Pas
Dear Richard, can you check the additional possibility?
The Guille/Wille link comes out of Caroli Magni Progenies, by
Siegfried Rosch, published in 1977 as well as Europaische Stammt.
by Prince von Isenburg.
Thanks.
Leo van de Pas
>>Charlemagne 742-814
>> I
>>Louis the Pious, 778-840
>> I.................................................
>>Lothar I, Emperor, 795-855 Gisla de France 819-874
>> I I
>>Ludwig II, Emperor, 825-875 Ingeltrud of Friaul 837-874
>> I I
>>Ermengard, 853-896 Haduwig von Babenberg
>> I I
>>Guille/Wille de Provence, 878- Heinrich I the Fowler, Emperor 876-936
>> I I
>>Rudolf II, King of Burgundy Otto I, Emperor 912-973
>> I I
>>Aelis/Adelheid of Burgundy 931-999 Otto II, Emperor 955-983
>> I I
>>Otto II Holy Roman Emperor 955-983=I
Todd A. Farmerie
Richard Borthwick wrote:
>
> At 03:38 AM 11/02/98 -0800, you wrote:
> >
> >>When I've only used Paul Theroff's genfiles, there probably are a lot of
> >>blancs to fill in here...... Could there possibly be a chance of a link
> >>back to great old Charlie somewhere? And what about the connections to
> >>the Georgian Kings?
> >>
> > I
> >Louis the Pious, 778-840
> >Lothar I, Emperor, 795-855
> >Ludwig II, Emperor, 825-875
> > I
> > I
> >Guille/Wille de Provence, 878-
> >Rudolf II, King of Burgundy
> >Aelis/Adelheid of Burgundy 931-999
> >Otto II Holy Roman Emperor 955-983
> >Mathilde of Saxony
> > I
> >Richeza de Lorraine
> > I
> >Richeza/Ryksa of Poland 1018-1052
> > I
> >Laslo I, King of Hungary, 1044-1095
> > I
[snip]
> The mother of Rudolf II of Burgundy was Willa whose origins are uncertain,
> but it is commonly thought that she was dau. of Boso king of Burgundy by an
> unknown 1st wife and not by his 2nd wife Ermengarde dau. of Louis II. Willa
> is not given as a daughter of Boso and Ermengarde by K F Werner in "Die
> Nachkommen Karls des Grossen" in W Braunfels (General ed) *Karl der Grosse:
> Lebenswerk und Nachleben* Band V (1965). [ES III/4:736, II:189 corrected in
> III/1 in the Correction section at the end; E Hlawitschka "Die
> Thronkandidaturen von 1002 und 1024. etc" in K Schmid (ed). *Reich und
> Kirche vor dem Institurstreit* (Thorbecke, Sigmaringen, 1985) 55].
Two alternatives descents from Charlemagne have been proposed, one
through a daughter of Pepin of Italy (ancestor of Vermandois) to the
mother of Otto, Duke of Saxony (discussed here a year or so ago), and
one through a sister of Berenger I of Italy to Hedwig, Otto's wife
(discussed in Settipani and in the recent Keats-Rohan TAG article on
Poppa).
taf
Stewart Baldwin
leov...@iinet.net.au (Leo van de Pas) wrote:
>>When I've only used Paul Theroff's genfiles, there probably are a lot of
>>blancs to fill in here...... Could there possibly be a chance of a link
>>back to great old Charlie somewhere? And what about the connections to
>>the Georgian Kings?
>>
>Charlemagne 742-814
> I
>Louis the Pious, 778-840
[numerous geberations omitted]
>Theodora Megale Komnena
> I
>Haydar Safavi
>Sultan
> I
>Ismael I
>Shah of Persia
Those interested in this line should check out the article "The
Descendants of Theodora Comnena of Trebizond" by M. L. Bierbrier,
which appeared in the lates issue (vol. 11, pp. 232-54) of "The
Genealogist" (which arrived in my mailbox a week or so ago). 139
descendants are given in the first seven generations, with a "to be
continued" at the end which indicates that more is to come.
Stewart Baldwin
Frank H. Johansen
> Those interested in this line should check out the article "The
> Descendants of Theodora Comnena of Trebizond" by M. L. Bierbrier,
> which appeared in the lates issue (vol. 11, pp. 232-54) of "The
> Genealogist" (which arrived in my mailbox a week or so ago). 139
> descendants are given in the first seven generations, with a "to be
> continued" at the end which indicates that more is to come.
And for those of us that don't get it in the mailbox..........? Could
you.......?
FHJ
William Addams Reitwiesner
leov...@iinet.net.au (Leo van de Pas) wrote:
>
>>When I've only used Paul Theroff's genfiles, there probably are a lot of
>>blancs to fill in here...... Could there possibly be a chance of a link
>>back to great old Charlie somewhere? And what about the connections to
>>the Georgian Kings?
>>
>Charlemagne 742-814
> I
>Louis the Pious, 778-840
> I
>Lothar I, Emperor, 795-855
> I
>Ludwig II, Emperor, 825-875
> I
>Ermengard, 853-896
> I
>Guille/Wille de Provence, 878-
> I
>Rudolf II, King of Burgundy
> I
>Aelis/Adelheid of Burgundy 931-999
> I
>Otto II Holy Roman Emperor 955-983
> I
>Mathilde of Saxony
> I
>Richeza de Lorraine
> I
>Richeza/Ryksa of Poland 1018-1052
> I
>Laslo I, King of Hungary, 1044-1095
> I
>Eirene/Piroska of Hungary
> I
This part here doesn't work: Theodora's descendants can't be traced more
than a couple of generations. See M. L. Bierbrier, "Modern descendants of
Byzantine families", in *Genealogists' Magazine*, vol. 20, no. 3 (September
1980), pp. 85-96, at p. 87 (col. 174).
>Theodora Komnena 1116-
> I
>NN Anemas
> I
>NN Angelos
> I
>Ioannes Komnenos Angelos
> I
>Eudoka Angelina
>1222-
From Eudokia down the line is OK, but her origin and connection (if any) to
the main line of the Angelos family, is unknown. See. for example, Lindsay
L. Brook, "The Byzantine ancestry of H.R.H. Prince Charles, Prince of
Wales", in *The Genealogist* [APSG], vol. 2, no. 1 (Spring 1981), pp. 3-51,
at number 26 (p. 8). Note 23, on p. 39, points out that it's
chronologically impossible for Eudokia to be a daughter of Ioannes.
>Theodora Megale Komnena
> I
>Haydar Safavi
>Sultan
> I
>Ismael I
>Shah of Persia
>
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>** Leo van de Pas ** Centraal Bureau http://www.cbg.nl
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Home Page : http://www.iinet.net.au/~leovdpas/genealogics.html
>
>
William Addams Reitwiesner
"Frank H. Johansen" <frank.j...@hm.telia.no> wrote:
>Here's what I've found on the ancestry of Shah Isamel I of Persia:
>
>xxxxxxxxxxx
>
>1. Ismael I, Shah of Persia, d. 1524
<bandwidth snip>
>How much is actually known of these connections. Did they have any
>descendants, any (famous) descendants living today?
See M. L. Bierbrier, "Sources for the study of Persian and Indian Royal
genealogies", in *The Genealogist* [APSG], vol. 3, no. 2 (Fall 1982), pp.
204-227. In spite of its title, it's actually an examination of the
descendants of Ismail I through Persia, India, Afghanistan, and so on, down
to the 20th (Christian) Century.
The connection between the Safavis and the Beys of Tunis, presented in
*Burke's Royal Families of the World*, vol. II [London: Burke's, 1980], p.
142 and p. 225, is dismissed by Bierbrier on p. 209.
Portculis
>> which appeared in the latest issue (vol. 11, pp. 232-54) of "The
>> Genealogist" (which arrived in my mailbox a week or so ago). 139
>> descendants are given in the first seven generations, with a "to be
>> continued" at the end which indicates that more is to come.
>
>And for those of us that don't get it in the mailbox..........? Could
>you.......?
>
>FHJ
The subscription to The Genealogist is not much, and if you are interested in
this newsgroup, you should invest in it. The info is under copyright.
The Bierbrier article is long and continuing.
FYI:
For subscriptions from v. 11 on, contact
The Genealogist
Picton Press
PO Box 250
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The rate is $25 for one year [two issues plus index] or $45 for two years.
For back-issues of v.1-10, contact:
Neil D. Thompson
255 North 200 West
Salt Lake City, UT 84103
I believe the rate is still $25 per year, or $200.00 for the whole 10 v. set,
including a forthcoming comprehensive index.
Be respectful of the (basically unpaid) effort the editors put into the various
journals we all use and cite so frequently.
Richard Borthwick
At 11:51 PM 11/02/98 +0800, you wrote:
>Dear Richard, can you check the additional possibility?
>The Guille/Wille link comes out of Caroli Magni Progenies, by
>Siegfried Rosch, published in 1977 as well as Europaische Stammt.
>by Prince von Isenburg.
>Thanks.
>Leo van de Pas
I have not come accross the speculation that Haduich the mother of Henry the
Fowler came, on her mother's side, from the Friuli. Ingeltrud get a guernsey
from Werner with roughly the dates you give her. No marriage is indicated
but then neither is she indicated as having become a nun. If we argue from
silence it is most unlikely that she did not marry. I presume her alleged
husband was Heinrich, marchio Francorum & dux Austrasiorum who d. 28 Aug
886. ES III/54 certainly makes Haduich his daughter. While I think this
right [for the reasons given by A Friese in *Studien zur
Herrschaftsgeschichte des fraenkischen Adels* (Klett-Kotta, Stuttgart, 1979)
pp 103, 109-114] others may not be so persuaded. Friese does not mention
Ingeltrud or the Friuli possibility (neither does ES for that matter). None
of this is particularly helpful and I have no access (as far as I know) to
the arguments in favour of Ingeltrud as Haduich's mother (or any against it
for that matter). I append a discussion from early last year which may
interest you.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At 05:49 PM 9/04/97 +0100, you wrote:
>William Addams Reitwiesner wrote:
>>
>> "Todd A. Farmerie" <ta...@po.cwru.edu> wrote:
>>
>> >James C. Woodard wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Is there any concensus on the ascent of Hedwige wife of Otto?
>> >
>> >No. Actually, Stuart, for once, provides a reasonable review of the
>> >situation (although when it comes to showing the descent, he selects the
>> >same old bull). There seems to be a general concensus that the name
>> >Henry was brought to the family through Hedwige, but beyond that
>> >nothing. What can be rejected is the claim that she was daughter of
>> >Arnulf of Germany. This, unfortunately, was revived by Sheppard in
>> >Ancestral Roots (6th and 7th) crediting Stimmel, but of the sources he
>> >cites, Moriarty, Brandenburg, Winkhaus and Isenburg (the ones I have
>> >available) say nothing of the sort. Stuart himself states that one of
>> >the remaining does not contain the descent, while the sole remaining
>> >source, Saillot, cannot stand above the others, even if it does have the
>> >descent (which I somehow doubt).
>> >
>> >What is in ES?
>>
>> The Schwennicke edition of ES, Band I, Tafel 3, says, about Heinrich's
>> parents:
>>
>> Otto, HERZOG VON SACHSEN (880), GRAF IN SUED-THUERINGEN (874),
>> +30.XI.912; oo 869 Hathui, +(906).
>>
>> Nothing more.
>>
>> William Addams Reitwiesner
>> wr...@erols.com
>
>There is quite a lot of german research into this. The current
>consensus (as summarised by E.Hlawitschka, in Rheinische
>Vierteljarhrblatter, 1974, p141ff) is that she was a daughter
>of Margrave Henry who died at paris against the Normans 28.8.886 (he
>also often appears with other titles: Duke of the Austrasians, is
>one of them). Her mother was (according to the same author) was
>probably a grand-daughter of St.Ida (d.c.820) and the Saxon Count
>Egbert (flor. 809-11).
>
>Matt
>
Schwennicke in ES III/1:54 supports the filiation for Hedwig/Haduich/Hadui
reported by Matt. See also Alfred Friese *Studien zur Herrschaftsgeschichte
des fraenkischen Adels* (Klett-Cotta, Stuttgart, 1979) 109-14. I have not
found a discussion of this in English.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>Charlemagne 742-814
>>> I
>>>Louis the Pious, 778-840
>>> I.................................................
>>>Lothar I, Emperor, 795-855 Gisla de France 819-874
>>> I I
>>>Ludwig II, Emperor, 825-875 Ingeltrud of Friaul 837-874
>>> I I
>>>Ermengard, 853-896 Haduwig von Babenberg
>>> I I
>>>Guille/Wille de Provence, 878- Heinrich I the Fowler, Emperor 876-936
>>> I I
>>>Rudolf II, King of Burgundy Otto I, Emperor 912-973
>>> I I
>>>Aelis/Adelheid of Burgundy 931-999 Otto II, Emperor 955-983
>>> I I
>>>Otto II Holy Roman Emperor 955-983=I
>>> I
>>>Mathilde of Saxony
>>> I
>>>Richeza de Lorraine
>>> I
>>>Richeza/Ryksa of Poland 1018-1052
>>> I
>>>Laslo I, King of Hungary, 1044-1095
>>> I
>>>Eirene/Piroska of Hungary
>>> I
>>>Theodora Komnena 1116-
>>> I
>>>NN Anemas
>>> I
>>>NN Angelos
>>> I
>>>Ioannes Komnenos Angelos
>>> I
>>>Eudoka Angelina
>>>1222-
>>>Ismael I
>>>Shah of Persia
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>** Leo van de Pas ** Centraal Bureau http://www.cbg.nl
>>>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>Home Page : http://www.iinet.net.au/~leovdpas/genealogics.html
>>>
>>>
Edward Pawlicki
William Addams Reitwiesner wrote:
> <snip>
> See M. L. Bierbrier, "Sources for the study of Persian and Indian Royal
> genealogies", in *The Genealogist* [APSG], vol. 3, no. 2 (Fall 1982), pp.
> 204-227. In spite of its title, it's actually an examination of the
> descendants of Ismail I through Persia, India, Afghanistan, and so on, down
> to the 20th (Christian) Century.
>
> The connection between the Safavis and the Beys of Tunis, presented in
> *Burke's Royal Families of the World*, vol. II [London: Burke's, 1980], p.
> 142 and p. 225, is dismissed by Bierbrier on p. 209.
Has Mr Bierbrier published anything in book form? It's hard for me to get some
periodicals (mail to Australia is slow).
Ed
Leda E. Behseresht
Frank H. Johansen wrote:
>
> Leo van de Pas wrote:
>
> > >When I've only used Paul Theroff's genfiles, there probably are a lot of
> > >blancs to fill in here...... Could there possibly be a chance of a link
> > >back to great old Charlie somewhere? And what about the connections to
> > >the Georgian Kings?
> > >
> > Charlemagne 742-814
> > I
[snip]
> > Ismael I
> > Shah of Persia
>
> Well, well, look at that!
>
> Now we can add a vast number of Persians and others in the Middle East to the
> list of Charlemagnes descendants!
>
> Thaks for the info, Leo!
>
> FHJ
I just subscribed and found this thread.
Mr. Johansen makes a comment of having Persian descendants of
Charlemagne.
I'm descended from American colonists on my mother's side of the family
and my father immigrated to America from Iran in the late 1950's.
My mother's family has been connected to Charlemagne (the old fashion
way) and it would be great (but HIGHLY unlikely) to connect my father's.
So, Mr Johansen, you've already found one Persian descended from
Charlemagne.
--
Leda E. Behseresht
mailto:leda_b@sw_bell.net
Frank H. Johansen
Leda E. Behseresht wrote:
Yes, this just prooves that the descendants of Charlemagne is not only found in
Europe, Australia and the Americas, but worlwide! The (traceable) descendants of
Shah Ismael (and Charlemagne) probably include persons in North Africa (the Rulers
of Tunisia probably among them!), the Middle East, Central Asia, the Indian
Peninsula (the varioud Maharajas, the Aga Khan), etc. It's quite a fantastic
thought, isn't it!?
Regards
FHJ
John Lerwill
Frank H. Johansen wrote:
>Yes, this just prooves that the descendants of Charlemagne is not only
found in
>Europe, Australia and the Americas, but worlwide! The (traceable)
descendants of
>Shah Ismael (and Charlemagne) probably include persons in North Africa
(the >Rulers of Tunisia probably among them!), the Middle East, Central
Asia, the Indian
>Peninsula (the varioud Maharajas, the Aga Khan), etc. It's quite a fantastic
>thought, isn't it!?
>
Frank must surely be making a very good point. But almost as an aside, I
see that "the Aga Khan" is included here (quite validly) - but "from the
Indian Peninsula". The male ancestry of to-day's Aga Khan is not,
technically, from that "Peninsula" at all, though the former Aga Khan III
(d.1957) was associated with it for many years. The ancestry is claimed
back through the Fatimid Khaliphat to Prophet MOHAMMED of course, through
his daughter Fatima and the Shi'ite founder, Ali. The title "Aga Khan" is a
secular one, only received from the then Shah of Persia in the 19th c.
The male line, as I understand it, from the Nizari Ismaili tradition (other
traditions argue against some claims), begins as follows:
'Abd-al-Muttalib
__________|_____
| |
'Abdullah 'Abu Talib
| |
Mohammed 570-632 |
m. Khadija |
| |
Fatima m......................Ali ibn Talib (4th Khalif, & 1st Shi'ite
Imam) k. 661
|_______________________________________
| |
Hussein k. 680 at Kerbala Hassan k.669
| (elder son of 'Ali)
Zayn al-Abidin d. 712
|
Mohammad al-Baqir d.736
|
Ja'far as-Sadiq d. 765
|________________________
| |
Ismail d.764 Musa d.799
| (& his line held to be true Imamate successors
Mohammed ibn Ismail d.808 according to "Twelver" Shi'ites of Iran etc.)
|
Wafi Ahmad d.827
|
Taqi Mohammed d.893
|
Radi-u-din 'Abdullah d.901
|
Al-Mahdi d.933 (1st Fatimid Khalif, Egypt)
!
Al-Qa'im d.935
|
Al-Mansur d.952
|
Al-Muizz d.975
|
Al-Aziz d.996
|
Al-Hakim bi Amri Allah k.1020
|
Al-Zahir d.1035 (the Lebanese Druze community emanate from this time)
|
Al-Mustansir bi Allah d.1094
|_______________________________________
| |
Nizar d.1095 (last Nizar-Ismaili Fatimid Khalif) al-Musta'li
d.1101
| (Fatimid Khalifat cont'd)
There follows the long period
at Alamut & in Persia until the 19th c.
......to to-day's Aga Khan (I have the
remainder of the claimed male descent
should anyone be interested)
John Lerwill, London, England
***************************************************************************
For Devon History and also Research help, please see my webpage
at: http://members.tripod.com/~lerhistory/
Frank H. Johansen
John Lerwill wrote:
> Frank H. Johansen wrote:
>
> >Yes, this just prooves that the descendants of Charlemagne is not only
> found in
> >Europe, Australia and the Americas, but worlwide! The (traceable)
> descendants of
> >Shah Ismael (and Charlemagne) probably include persons in North Africa
> (the >Rulers of Tunisia probably among them!), the Middle East, Central
> Asia, the Indian
> >Peninsula (the varioud Maharajas, the Aga Khan), etc. It's quite a fantastic
> >thought, isn't it!?
> >
>
> Frank must surely be making a very good point. But almost as an aside, I
> see that "the Aga Khan" is included here (quite validly) - but "from the
> Indian Peninsula". The male ancestry of to-day's Aga Khan is not,
> technically, from that "Peninsula" at all, though the former Aga Khan III
> (d.1957) was associated with it for many years. The ancestry is claimed
> back through the Fatimid Khaliphat to Prophet MOHAMMED of course, through
> his daughter Fatima and the Shi'ite founder, Ali. The title "Aga Khan" is a
> secular one, only received from the then Shah of Persia in the 19th c.
Thanks very much for the info. Do you think you also please could post the descendance
from Nizar (ibn al-Mustansir) to the Aga Khan, and also the descendance from Shah
Ismael I ?
Regards
Frank H. Johansen
Alan B. Wilson
I was intrigued by the submission by Frank H. Johnson on Wed., 11
Feb. 1998, on the ancestry of Ismael I, and by the question about possible
linkages to Charlemagne. I have followed with interest the subsequent
submissions in this thread.
I have compiled a selective ancestry which, after several
generations, diverges from the line which I have seen discussed. The
sixteenth generation of this selective ancestry includes twelve persons,
each of whom has, I believe, a Carolingian descent.
I'll follow up this post with skeletal listings of the Carolingian
pedigrees of each of these twelve ancestors of Ismael I. At least until
someone calls "uncle" :-)! But I'd rather save myself the clerical
effort, and save you the bandwidth (if that's the proper term), so I'll
skip detail and source listings unless some particular portions of these
latter pedigrees proves problematical.
Of course, as always, one major motivation for posting is in hopes
that I may weed out errors in my data base. So I will be pleased if you
will call my attention to errors that may appear.
First Generation
‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹
1 Abdul Muzaffar Ismail I Shah of Persia.[445] Born on 17 Jul 1487.[445,
*] Abdul Muzaffar Ismail I died in Manqutay near Sarab on 23 May 1524; he
was 36.[445, +@] Buried in Ardabil.[445, @]
Second Generation
‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹
3 Halima Begi Aqa / Aliya Begum.[445] Born ca 1460.[445, *] Halima Begi
Aqa / Aliya Begum died aft 1499; she was 39.[445, +]
ca 1472 when Halima Begi Aqa / Aliya Begum was 12, she married Haydar
Safavi Sultan[445].[445, =]
Third Generation
‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹
7 Theodora Megale Komnene.[445],[233, ii, 176],[444, p. 281] Born aft
1438.[445, *] Theodora Megale Komnene died aft 1474; she was 36.[445,
+],[233, ii, 176 + (aft 1478)] Buried in St. George¹s Church,
Diyarbakir.[445, @],[233, @]
In 1458 when Theodora Megale Komnene was 20, she married Uzun Hasan Khan
of the Aq-quyunlu[445],[233, ii, 176], in Herbrt.[445, =],[233, iii, 176
=@]
Fourth Generation
‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹
14 Ioannes IV Megas Komnenos Emperor in Trapezunt.[233, ii, 176],[444, p.
281] Born bef 1403.[233, ii, 176 *] Ioannes IV Megas Komnenos died ca
1460; he was 57.[233, ii, 176 +] Emperor {1446-1458}.[444, p. 281]
Fifth Generation
‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹
28 Alexios IV (Basile) Megas Komnenos Emperor in Trapezunt.[233, ii,
176],[444, p. 281] Born on 19 Jun 1382.[444, p. 281 *] Alexios IV (Basile)
Megas Komnenos died on 28 Oct 1429; he was 47.[444, p. 281 +],[233, ii,
176 + (1429)]
In 1395 when Alexios IV (Basile) Megas Komnenos was 12, he married
Theodora Kantakuzene[233, ii, 176; iii, 197],[444, p. 281].[233, ii, 176;
iii, 197 =],[444, p. 281 =]
Sixth Generation
‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹
56 Manuel III Achpugas Megas Komnenos Emperor in Trapezunt.[233, ii,
176],[444, p. 281] Born on 16 Dec 1364.[233, ii, 176 *],[444, p. 281 *]
Manuel III Achpugas Megas Komnenos died on 5 Mar 1417; he was 52.[233, ii,
176 +],[444, p. 281 +] Emperor {1390-1412}.[444, p. 281]
Manuel III Achpugas Megas Komnenos married Gultham (Eudokia) Khatum
Princess of Georgia[233, ii, 176],[444, p. 281].
Seventh Generation
‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹
112 Alexios III (Angelos Dukas Megas Komnenos) Emperor in Trapezunt.[233,
ii, 176],[444, p. 281] Born on 5 Oct 1338.[233, ii, 176 *],[444, p. 281 *
(5 Oct 1337)] Alexios III (Angelos Dukas Megas Komnenos) died on 20 Mar
1390; he was 51.[233, ii, 176 +]
Named ³Jean²[444, p. 281]
In Sep 1351 when Alexios III (Angelos Dukas Megas Komnenos) was 12, he
married Theodora Kantakuzene[233, ii, 176],[444, pp. 250, 281].[233, ii,
176 =],[444, p. 281 =]
Eighth Generation
‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹
224 Basileios Megas Komnenos Emperor in Trapezunt.[233, ii, 176],[444, p.
280] Basileios Megas Komnenos died on 6 Apr 1340.[233, ii, 176 +],[444, p.
280 +] Emperor {1332-1340}.[444, p. 280]
In Sep 1335 Basileios Megas Komnenos married Eirene Palaiologina Princess
of Byzanz.[233, ii, 183 =],[444, pp. 280, 372 =] They were divorced in
1339.[233, ii, 183]
Invalidated
225 Eirene Palaiologina Princess of Byzanz.[233, ii, 183],[444, pp. 280, 372]
Ninth Generation
‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹
448 Alexios II Palaiologos Megas Komnenos Emperor in Trapezunt.[233, ii,
175],[444, p. 280] Born in Jul 1283.[233, ii, 175 *],[444, p. 280 *
(1283)] Alexios II Palaiologos Megas Komnenos died on 3 May 1330; he was
46.[233, ii, 175 +],[444, p. 280 +]
Alexios II Palaiologos Megas Komnenos married Djiadjak of Samatzkhe[233,
ii, 175],[444, p. 280].
450 Andronikos III Palaiologos Emperor of Byzanz.[233, ii, 183],[444, p.
370] Born on 25 Mar 1296.[444, p. 370 *],[233, ii, 183 * (1296)]
Andronikos III Palaiologos died on 15 Jun 1341; he was 45.[233, ii, 183
+],[444, p. 370 +] Emperor {1326-1341}.[444, p. 370]
Tenth Generation
‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹
897 Eudokia Palaiologina.[233, ii, 175, 183],[444, pp. 280, 370] Eudokia
Palaiologina died on 12 Dec 1302.[444, p. 370 *],[233, ii, 175 + (Dec
1301/2)]
In 1282 Eudokia Palaiologina married Ioannes II Megas Komnenos Kaloioannes
Emperor in Trapezunt[233, ii, 175],[444, pp. 280, 370].[233, ii, 175
=],[444, p. 280 =]
900 Michael IX Dukas Angelos Komnenos Palaiologos.[233, ii, 183],[444, p.
370] Born in 1277.[444, p. 370 *] Michael IX Dukas Angelos Komnenos
Palaiologos died on 12 Oct 1320; he was 43.[233, ii, 183 +],[444, p. 370
+] Emperor {1295-}.[444, p. 370]
On 16 Jan 1295 when Michael IX Dukas Angelos Komnenos Palaiologos was 18,
he married Rita (Maria) of Armenia.[233, ii, 183],[444, p. 370 =]
901 Rita (Maria) of Armenia.[233, ii, 183],[444, p. 370] Born in
1278.[444, p. 370 *] Rita (Maria) of Armenia died in Jul 1333; she was
55.[233, ii, 183 +],[444, p. 370 +]
Eleventh Generation
‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹
1794 Michael VIII Dukas Angelos Komnenos Palaiologos Emperor in
Constantinople.[233, ii, 183; iii, 198],[444, pp. 276, 280, 370] Born in
1224/1225.[233, ii, 183 *],[444, p. 370 * (1224)] Michael VIII Dukas
Angelos Komnenos Palaiologos died on 11 Dec 1282; he was 58.[233, ii,
183],[444, p. 370 +] Emperor {1259-1282}.[444, p. 370]
In 1253 when Michael VIII Dukas Angelos Komnenos Palaiologos was 29, he
married Theodora Dukaina Komnene Palaiologina Batatzaina[233, ii, 182,
183],[444, p. 370].[233, ii, 182, 183 =]
1800 Andronikos II Dukas Angelos Komnenos Palaiologus Emperor of
Byzanz.[233, ii, 155, 183],[444, p. 370] Born on 25 Mar 1259.[233, ii, 183
*],[444, p. 370 * (1259)] Andronikos II Dukas Angelos Komnenos Palaiologus
died in Feb 1332; he was 72.[233, ii, 155, 183 +],[444, p. 370 +] Emperor
{1282-1328}.[444, p. 370]
On 8 Nov 1273 when Andronikos II Dukas Angelos Komnenos Palaiologus was
14, he married Anna of Hungary.[233, ii, 183 =],[444, p. 370 =]
1801 Anna of Hungary.[233, ii, 155, 183],[444, p. 370] Born ca 1260.[233,
ii, 155 *] Anna of Hungary died ca 1281; she was 21.[233, ii, 155, 183 +]
1802 Leon III (II) King of Armenia.[233, iii, 565],[327, V],[444, p. 370
(Leon II)],[447, iii, App. III] Leon III (II) was alive in 1269.[327, V]
was alive in 1289.[327, V] King {1269-1289}.[327, V]
Leon III (II) married Kyranna of Lampron[233, iii, 565],[327, V].
Twelfth Generation
‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹
3588 Andronikos Dukas Komnenos Palaiologos Governor of Thessilonica.[233,
iii, 198],[444, pp. 276, 371] Andronikos Dukas Komnenos Palaiologos died
in 1247.[233, iii, 198 + (aft 1246)],[444, p. 276]
ca 1216 Andronikos Dukas Komnenos Palaiologos married Theodora
Palaiologina.[233, iii, 198 =],[444, p. 276 = (ca 1211)]
3589 Theodora Palaiologina.[233, iii, 198],[444, pp. 276, 371] Born ca
1200.[233, iii, 198 *] Theodora Palaiologina died in Theodosia.[233, iii,
198 @]
3600 Michael VIII Dukas Angelos Komnenos Palaiologos Emperor in
Constantinople, same as number 1794
3602 Stephen V King of Hungary.[233, ii, 15, 155],[74, 103:30],[444, p.
370],[329, 375],[376, p. 179],[151, 78:26],[104, p. 5],[82, 202:30*->319]
Born in Dec 1239.[233, ii, 155 *] Stephen V died on 1 Aug 1272; he was
32.[233, ii, 155 +]
In 1253 when Stephen V was 13, he married Elizabeth of Kumans[233, ii,
555],[74, See 103:30],[329, 375],[151, See 78:26],[104, p. 5],[82,
202:31*->369].[233, ii, 155 =]
3605 Isabella of Armenia.[447, iii, App. III],[446, p. 200] Isabella of
Armenia died in 1252.[446, p. 200 +]
Isabella of Armenia married Hethoum I King of Armenia[447, iii, App.
III],[446, p. 200].
Thirteenth Generation
‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹
7177 Irene Komnene Dasiotissa.[444, p. 276]
Irene Komnene Dasiotissa married Alexios Palaiologos[233, iii, 198],[444,
pp. 276, 371].
7178 Alexios Komnenos Palaiologos.[233, iii, 198],[444, pp. 276, 371]
Alexios Komnenos Palaiologos died in 1201/1204.[233, iii, 19 +]
Alexios Komnenos Palaiologos married Irene Angelina[233, iii, 198],[444,
pp. 276, 371].
7204 Bela IV King of Hungary.[233, ii, 155, 182],[74, 103:29],[73, p.
143],[444, p. 208],[329, 375],[376, pp. 178, 179],[151, 78:27],[104, pp.
5, 25, 31],[82, 319:02*] Born in 1206 in of Hungary.[233, ii, 155 *] Bela
IV died on 3 May 1270; he was 64.[233, ii, 155, 182 +]
In 1218 when Bela IV was 12, he married Marie Lascarina[233, ii, 155,
182],[444, p. 208],[376, p. 54],[82, 319:03*].[233, ii, 155, 172 =]
7210 Leon II (I) King of Armenia.[233, iii, 564],[447, iii, App.
III],[446, p. 200] Leon II (I) died on 2 May 1219.[233, iii, 564 +] King
{1199-1219}.[446, p. 200]
In 1210 Leon II (I) married Sibylle Lusignan[233, iii, 564],[447, iii,
App. III],[446, p. 200].[104, iii, 564 =]
7211 Sibylle Lusignan.[233, iii, 564],[447, iii, App. III],[446, p. 200]
Born ca 1199/1200.[233, iii, 564 *] Sibylle Lusignan died aft 1225; she
was 26.[233, iii, 564 +]
14th Generation
‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹
14355 Maria Komnene.[444, p. 276] Born ca 1126.[233, ii, 177 *]
In 1139 when Maria Komnene was 13, she married Theodore Dasiotos[233, ii,
177],[444, p. 276].[233, ii, 177 =]
14357 Eirene Komnene Kantakuzene.[233, iii, 198]
In 1165 Eirene Komnene Kantakuzene married Dukas Palaiologos[233, iii,
198].[233, iii, 198 =]
14408 Andrew II King of Hungary.[233, i, 36; ii, 17, 70, 155],[74,
103:28],[73, p. 143],[329, 29],[151, 51:27; 78:28],[104, p. 31],[82,
311:06] Born in 1176.[233, ii, 155 *] Andrew II died on 26 Oct 1235; he
was 59.[233, ii, 155 +] Buried in Abtai Egrecz.[233]
bef 1203 when Andrew II was 27, he married Gertrude of Andechs-Meran.[233,
i, 36 (1203); ii, 155 =]
14409 Gertrude of Andechs-Meran.[233, i, 36; ii, 155],[74, 103:28],[73, p.
143],[329, 375],[151, 7:28; 51:27],[104, p. 31],[82, 319:05*] Gertrude of
Andechs-Meran died on 23 Nov 1213.[233, i, 36; ii, 155 +]
14420 Stephen Prince of Armenia.[447, iii, App. III],[327, T2],[446, p.
200] Born ca 1110.[327, T2] Stephen died on 7 Feb 1165; he was 55.[327,
T2]
Stephen married Rita of Paperaun[446, p. 200],[447, iii, App. III].
14423 Isabella (Elisabeth) of Anjou.[233, ii, 47, 82],[447, iii, App.
III],[327, U] Born in 1172.[233, ii, 47, 82 *] Isabella (Elisabeth) of
Anjou died bef May 1206; she was 34.[233, ii, 47, 82 +],[327, U
(1205/1208)]
In Oct 1198 when Isabella (Elisabeth) of Anjou was 26, she married Amaury
de Lusignan King of Cyprus[233, iii, 564, 631, 815],[447, iii, App.
III],[446, p. 200].[233, ii, 82 =]
15th Generation
‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹
28710 Androniko Komnenos.[233, ii, 177],[444, p. 276],[376, p. 54],[151,
111:30],[327, U] Born ca 1108.[233, ii, 177 *] Androniko Komnenos died in
Herbst in 1142; he was 34.[233, ii, 177 +@],[444, p. 276 +],[151],[327, U
+]
ca 1124 when Androniko Komnenos was 16, he married Eirene[233, ii,
177],[444, p. 276],[151, See 111:30],[327, U].[233, ii, 177 =],[444, p.
276],[151]
28715 Maria Komnene, same as number 14355
28816 Bela III King of Hungary.[233, ii, 11, 83, 154, 155],[74,
242:10],[73, p. 142, 143],[329, 29],[151, 51:28],[82, 311:12*] Born ca
1148/1150.[233, ii, 154 *] Bela III died on 23 Apr 1196; he was 48.[233,
ii, 154, 155 +] Buried in Szekesfehervar.[233]
In 1172 when Bela III was 24, he married Agnes de
Chatillon-sur-Loing.[233, ii, 154 =]
28817 Agnes de Chatillon-sur-Loing.[233, ii, 154],[74, 103:27],[73, pp.
142, 143],[151, 80:28],[82, 311:13*] Agnes de Chatillon-sur-Loing died in
1184.[233, ii, 154 +]
Cptn[329] 29 lists Margaret of France as mother of Andre II.
28818 Berthold VI Duke of Meran.[233, i, 36, 41; ii, 11, 155],[74, See
103:28],[73, pp. 198, 202],[376, ³Diessen-Andechs² 18, p. 69],[329, 23,
375],[151, 7:29],[104, p. 31],[82, 319:10*] Born ca 1152.[73, pp. 198, 202
*] Berthold VI was alive in 1188.[233, i, 36] Berthold VI died on 12 Aug
1204; he was 52.[233, i, 36 +],[73, pp. 198, 202 +] Count of Antioch;
Margrave of Istria.[151],[73, p. 198] Duke of Croatia, Dalmatia, and of
the Coast Meran.[151]
In 1170 when Berthold VI was 18, he married Agnes of
Groitzsch-Rochlitz.[233, i, 36, 41 =],[73, p. 198, 202 =]
28819 Agnes of Groitzsch-Rochlitz.[233, i, 36, 41],[73, pp. 198,
202],[329, 23, 375],[376, ³Wettiner II² 17a, p. 192],[151, 8:29],[104, p.
31],[82, 319:11*] Agnes of Groitzsch-Rochlitz died on 25 Mar 1185.[233, i,
36, 41 +],[73, p. 198, 202 +]
28841 Beatrice de Rethel.[233, iii, 625],[314],[327, T2]
Beatrice de Rethel married Leon of Gebirges (Leon I) Prince of
Armenia[233, iii, 625],[447, iii, App. III],[446, p. 200],[327, T2].
28846 Amalrich I of Anjou King of Jerusalem.[233, ii, 47, 82],[444, p.
276],[327, U] Born in 1136.[233, ii, 82 *],[327, U *] Amalrich I of Anjou
died on 11 Jul 1174; he was 38.[233, ii, 82, 177 +],[327, U +] King
{1163-1174}.[327]
On 29 Jul 1167 when Amalrich I of Anjou was 31, he married Maria Komnene
in Tyrus.[233, ii, 82, 177 =@],[444, p. 276 = (1167)],[327, U = (1167)]
28847 Maria Komnene.[233, ii, 82, 177],[444, p. 276] Born in 1154.[233,
ii, 82, 177 *] Maria Komnene died bef Mar 1217; she was 63.[233, ii, 82,
177 +],[444, p. 276 + (1217)],[327, U + (Nov 1217)]
16th Generation
‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹
57421 Prisca of Hungary.[233, ii, 175],[74, 244A:8],[73, p. 138],[444, p.
275],[376, p. 54],[151, 381:31],[82, 848:03*],[327, U] Born ca 1088.
Prisca of Hungary died in Bithinia on 13 Aug 1134; she was 46.[233, ii,
175 +],[444, p. 275 +@],[82]
In 1104/1105 when Prisca of Hungary was 16, she married John II Komnenos
Dukas Emperor[233, ii, 175, 177],[74, 105A:25],[444, p. 275],[376, p.
54],[151, 111:31],[82, 848:02*],[327, U].[233, ii, 175 =],[444, p. 275
(1104)=],[82, = (1104/1105)]
57632 Geza II King of Hungary.[233, ii, 135, 154],[73, pp, 143, 145],[329,
29],[151, 51:29],[82, 311:24*->492] Born ca 1130.[233, ii, 154 *] Geza II
died on 3 May 1162; he was 32.[233, ii, 135, 154 +]
In 1146 when Geza II was 16, he married Euphrosine (Jewfrosinija)
Mstislawna of Kiev[233, ii, 135, 154],[74, 242:9],[73, pp. 143, 145],[329,
29],[151, 240:28],[82, 311:25*->493].[233, ii, 135, 154 =]
57634 Renaud de Chatillon-sur-Loing Prince of Antioch.[233, ii, 154, 205;
vii, 17],[74, See 103:26],[73, pp. 142, 147],[151, 99:29],[82,
311:26->494] Renaud de Chatillon-sur-Loing died in 1187.[233, vii, 17 +]
ES[233] iii, 154 gives the father of Renaud as Geoffrey, Sire of
Chatillon. Moriarty says the parentage of Renaud, who was slain by
Saladin with his own hand, is uncertain, but probably Henry. Runciman ii,
281, says Reynaud was younger son of Geoffrey, Count of Gien and Lord of
Chatillon-sur-Loing.
bef May 1153 Renaud de Chatillon-sur-Loing married Constance of
Antioch.[233, vii, 17 =]
57635 Constance of Antioch.[233, ii, 205; vii, 17],[74, 103:26],[73, pp.
141, 142],[151, 80:29],[82, 311:27->495] Born ca 1127.[233, ii, 205 *]
Constance of Antioch died ca 1163; she was 36.[233, ii, 205 +]
57636 Berthold V Count of Andechs.[233, i, 23, 36],[73, p. 198],[329,
23],[376, ³Diessen-Andechs² 19, p. 69],[151, 7:30],[82, 319:20*->890] Born
in 1122/1123.[73, p. 198 *],[151] Berthold V died in 8658 on 14 Dec 1188;
he was 66.[233, i, 36 +],[73, p. 198 +] Buried in Diessen.[82],[151],[73,
p. 198 @] Count of Andechs, Innsbruch and Wolfratscausen.[151],[233, i,
36] Margrave of Istria.[151],[233, i, 36],[73, p. 198]
In 1152 when Berthold V was 30, he married Hedwig of Wittelsbach.[73, p.
198 =],[82]
57637 Hedwig of Wittelsbach.[233, i, 23, 36],[329, 23],[151, 9:30],[82,
319:21*->891] Hedwig of Wittelsbach died on 16 Jul 1174.[233, i, 23, 36 +]
Moriarty[73, pp. 198, 199] lists Hedwig of Formbach, daughter of
Ekbert II, Count of Putten and Neuberg, & Wiliberg of Styria. However, ES
xvi, 37 does not show any such daughter for Ekbert II; and ES i, 23 and 36
show Hedwig as daughter of Otto IV of Wittlesbach as listed here.
57638 Dedo V "the Strong" Count of Groitzsch.[233, i, 36, 41; vi,
23a],[73, pp. 198, 202, 203],[376, ³Wettiner I² 18a, p. 192],[151,
8:30],[151, 8:30],[104, p. 31],[82, 319:22*->899] Born in 1142.[73, p. 202
*],[376] Dedo V "the Strong" died on 16 Aug 1190; he was 48.[233, i, 41;
vi, 23a +],[73, p. 202 +] Count in the Groitzsch-Rochlitz and of
Eilenburg.[73, p. 202],[151] Margrave of Niederlausitz; heir to Castle of
Groitzsch.[73, p. 202],[151]
bef 1159 when Dedo V "the Strong" was 17, he married Mathilda of
Heinsberg.[151, = (bef 1160)],[233, vi, 23a =],[73, p. 202 = (bef 1160)]
57639 Mathilda of Heinsberg.[233, i, 41; vi, 23a],[73, pp. 202, 203],[376,
³Heinsberg² 19a, p. 92],[151, 11:30],[104, p. 31],[82, 319:23*->900]
Mathilda of Heinsberg was alive in 1159.[73, pp. 202, 203],[376] Mathilda
of Heinsberg died on 20 Jan 1189.[233, i, 41; vi, 23a +],[73, pp. 202,
203] Heiress of Sommerschenburg.[233, vi, 23a]
57682 Hughes I Count of Rethel.[233, iii, 624, 625],[74, 103A:24],[73, p.
142],[314],[409, p. 338],[327, T2],[151, 145:32],[104, p. 197] Hughes I
died ca 1118.[233, iii, 625 +] Buried in Priory of Novi.[314]
Hughes I married Melesinde of Montlhery[233, iii, 624, 625],[74, See
103A:24],[314],[409, p. 338],[118, lii, 23-26.],[151, See 145:32],[104, p.
197].
57692 Foulques V Count of Anjou.[233, ii, 7, 81, 82; iii. 625, 692; vi,
129],[74, 118:24],[73, pp. 2, 11],[329, 21, 25],[151, 53:29],[104, p.
6],[82, 301:08*] Born in 1092 in of Anjou, France.[233, ii, 82 *],[82]
Foulques V died in Akkon Jerusalem, Holy Land on 13 Nov 1144; he was
52.[233, ii, 82 +@],[82] Comte d'Anjou King of Jerusalem.[82],[233]
In 1129 when Foulques V was 37, he married Melisende Queen of
Jerusalem.[233, ii, 82 =]
57693 Melisende Queen of Jerusalem.[233, ii, 82; iii, 625] Melisende died
on 11 Sep 1161.[233, ii, 82; iii, 625 +] Buried in Josaphat.[233, iii,
625]
57694 Ioannes Dukas Komnenos.[233, ii, 82, 177],[444, p. 276],[327, U]
Born ca 1128.[233, ii, 177 *] Ioannes Dukas Komnenos died in slain at
Myriokephalon aft 17 Sep 1176; he was 48.[233, ii, 177, +@],[444, p. 276 +
(1176)],[327, U + (1176]
ca 1146 when Ioannes Dukas Komnenos was 18, he married Maria
Taronitissa[233, ii, 177; iii, 597],[444, p. 276 (NN, dau. of Michael
Taronites)],[327, U].[233, ii, 177 =],[327, U = (ca 1050)]
REFERENCES
73. Moriarty, George Andrews, The Plantagenet Ancestry of King Edward III
and Queen Philippa, Salt Lake City, Utah: Mormon Pioneer Genealogy
Society, 1985.
74. Weis, Frederick Lewis, Ancestral roots of certain American colonists
who came to America before 1700; 7th ed., with additions and correctiuons
by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr. ; assisted by David Faris, Baltimore, MD:
Genealogical Publishing Co., 1992.
82. Call, Michel L., Royal Ancestors of Some American Families ; Pedigree
Charts., Printed by the author, 1991.
104. Turton, William Harry, The Plantagenet ancestry, Baltimore, MD:
Genealogical Publishing Co., 1993.
118. ³The American Genealogist².
151. Stuart, Roderick W., Royalty for commoners : the complete known
lineage of John of Gaunt, . . . second edition, Baltimore: Genealogical
Pub. Co., 1992.
233. Schwennicke, Detlev (ed.), Europaische Stammtafeln : Stammtafeln zur
Geschichte der europaischen Staaten / begrundet von Wilhelm Karl Prinz zu
Isenburg ; fortgefuhrt von Frank Baron Freytag von Loringhoven ; neue
Folge herausgegeben vonٹ., Marburg: Stargardt, 1978-<1995 >.
314. Threlfall, John Brooks, The Ancestry of Thomas Bradbury (1611-1695)
and his wife Mary (Perkins) Bradbury (1615-1700) of Salisbury,
Massachusetts; Second Edition, Madison, WI: Published by the author,
1995.
327. The Augustan Society, Descents from antiquity, Torrance, CA: The
Society, 1986.
329. Joannis, J. D. de, and R. de Saint-Jouan, Les seize quartiers
genealogiques des Capetiens, Lyon: Sauvegarde Historique, 1958.
376. Winkhaus, Eberhard, Ahnen Zu Karl Dem Grossen Und Widukind,
Westfalen, 1950.
409. Glocker, Winfred, Die Verwandten der Ottonen und ihre Bedeutung in
der Polotik : Studien zur Familienpolitik und zur Genealogie des
sachsischen Kaiserhauses, Koln : Bohlau, 1989.
444. Sturdza, Mihail-Dimitri, Dictionnaire historique et Genealogique des
grandes familles de Grece, d¹Albanie et de Constantinople, Paris, by the
author, 1983.
445. Bierbrier, M. L., ³The descendants of Theodora Comnena of Trebizond²,
The Genealogist, xi, Fall, 1997, pp. 232-254.
446. Wagner, Anthony, Pedigree and Progress, London: Phillimore & Co., 1975.
447. Runciman, Steven, A history of the crusades, London: Folio Society, 1994.
--
Alan B. Wilson
abwi...@uclink2.berkeley.edu
William Addams Reitwiesner
abwi...@uclink2.berkeley.edu (Alan B. Wilson) wrote:
> I was intrigued by the submission by Frank H. Johnson on Wed., 11
>Feb. 1998, on the ancestry of Ismael I, and by the question about possible
>linkages to Charlemagne. I have followed with interest the subsequent
>submissions in this thread.
>
> I have compiled a selective ancestry which, after several
>generations, diverges from the line which I have seen discussed. The
>sixteenth generation of this selective ancestry includes twelve persons,
>each of whom has, I believe, a Carolingian descent.
Unfortunately most of these descents go through a faulty connection.
<bandwidth chomp>
>112 Alexios III (Angelos Dukas Megas Komnenos) Emperor in Trapezunt.[233,
>ii, 176],[444, p. 281] Born on 5 Oct 1338.[233, ii, 176 *],[444, p. 281 *
>(5 Oct 1337)] Alexios III (Angelos Dukas Megas Komnenos) died on 20 Mar
>1390; he was 51.[233, ii, 176 +]
>
> Named ³Jean²[444, p. 281]
>
>In Sep 1351 when Alexios III (Angelos Dukas Megas Komnenos) was 12, he
>married Theodora Kantakuzene[233, ii, 176],[444, pp. 250, 281].[233, ii,
>176 =],[444, p. 281 =]
>
>
>Eighth Generation
>‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹
>
>224 Basileios Megas Komnenos Emperor in Trapezunt.[233, ii, 176],[444, p.
>280] Basileios Megas Komnenos died on 6 Apr 1340.[233, ii, 176 +],[444, p.
>280 +] Emperor {1332-1340}.[444, p. 280]
>
>In Sep 1335 Basileios Megas Komnenos married Eirene Palaiologina Princess
>of Byzanz.[233, ii, 183 =],[444, pp. 280, 372 =] They were divorced in
>1339.[233, ii, 183]
>
> Invalidated
>
>225 Eirene Palaiologina Princess of Byzanz.[233, ii, 183],[444, pp. 280, 372]
<bandwidth chomp again>
>233. Schwennicke, Detlev (ed.), Europaische Stammtafeln : Stammtafeln zur
>Geschichte der europaischen Staaten / begrundet von Wilhelm Karl Prinz zu
>Isenburg ; fortgefuhrt von Frank Baron Freytag von Loringhoven ; neue
>Folge herausgegeben vonŠ., Marburg: Stargardt, 1978-<1995 >.
>444. Sturdza, Mihail-Dimitri, Dictionnaire historique et Genealogique des
>grandes familles de Grece, d¹Albanie et de Constantinople, Paris, by the
>author, 1983.
These are the only sources you cite for these people. I checked both of
these sources, and while both of them say that Basileus (224) married
Eirene Palaiologina (225), both of them also say that Alexios III (112) was
a bastard son of Basileus by a mistress named Eirene. Stourdza says (p.
281) of Alexios III and his siblings: "enfants naturels d'une autre Irene".
This means that the woman you show as number 225 was not the mother of
number 112, and that all of her ancestry is lost to his descendants.
Unless you have an additional source which you haven't mentioned here.
Alan B. Wilson
In article <34ebc4dc...@news.erols.com>, wr...@erols.com (William
Addams Reitwiesner) wrote:
> abwi...@uclink2.berkeley.edu (Alan B. Wilson) wrote:
>
> > I was intrigued by the submission by Frank H. Johnson on Wed., 11
> >Feb. 1998, on the ancestry of Ismael I, and by the question about possible
> >linkages to Charlemagne. I have followed with interest the subsequent
> >submissions in this thread.
> >
> > I have compiled a selective ancestry which, after several
> >generations, diverges from the line which I have seen discussed. The
> >sixteenth generation of this selective ancestry includes twelve persons,
> >each of whom has, I believe, a Carolingian descent.
>
>
> Unfortunately most of these descents go through a faulty connection.
>
> <bandwidth chomp>
>
>
> >112 Alexios III (Angelos Dukas Megas Komnenos) Emperor in Trapezunt.[233,
> >ii, 176],[444, p. 281] Born on 5 Oct 1338.[233, ii, 176 *],[444, p. 281 *
> >(5 Oct 1337)] Alexios III (Angelos Dukas Megas Komnenos) died on 20 Mar
> >1390; he was 51.[233, ii, 176 +]
> >
> > Named ³Jean²[444, p. 281]
> >
> >In Sep 1351 when Alexios III (Angelos Dukas Megas Komnenos) was 12, he
> >married Theodora Kantakuzene[233, ii, 176],[444, pp. 250, 281].[233, ii,
> >176 =],[444, p. 281 =]
> >
> >
> >Eighth Generation
> >‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹
> >
> >224 Basileios Megas Komnenos Emperor in Trapezunt.[233, ii, 176],[444, p.
> >280] Basileios Megas Komnenos died on 6 Apr 1340.[233, ii, 176 +],[444, p.
> >280 +] Emperor {1332-1340}.[444, p. 280]
> >
> >In Sep 1335 Basileios Megas Komnenos married Eirene Palaiologina Princess
> >of Byzanz.[233, ii, 183 =],[444, pp. 280, 372 =] They were divorced in
> >1339.[233, ii, 183]
> >
> > Invalidated
> >
> >225 Eirene Palaiologina Princess of Byzanz.[233, ii, 183],[444, pp. 280, 372]
>
> <bandwidth chomp again>
>
>
> >233. Schwennicke, Detlev (ed.), Europaische Stammtafeln : Stammtafeln zur
> >Geschichte der europaischen Staaten / begrundet von Wilhelm Karl Prinz zu
> >Isenburg ; fortgefuhrt von Frank Baron Freytag von Loringhoven ; neue
> >Folge herausgegeben vonŠ., Marburg: Stargardt, 1978-<1995 >.
> >444. Sturdza, Mihail-Dimitri, Dictionnaire historique et Genealogique des
> >grandes familles de Grece, d¹Albanie et de Constantinople, Paris, by the
> >author, 1983.
>
> These are the only sources you cite for these people. I checked both of
> these sources, and while both of them say that Basileus (224) married
> Eirene Palaiologina (225), both of them also say that Alexios III (112) was
> a bastard son of Basileus by a mistress named Eirene. Stourdza says (p.
> 281) of Alexios III and his siblings: "enfants naturels d'une autre Irene".
>
> This means that the woman you show as number 225 was not the mother of
> number 112, and that all of her ancestry is lost to his descendants.
> Unless you have an additional source which you haven't mentioned here.
>
>
> William Addams Reitwiesner
> wr...@erols.com
>
> "Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc."
You are quite right. These were the only two sources upon which I
relied for information about generations four through ten. This includes
the parentage of Alexios III.
My attention surely wandered when scanning these entries. I can see
how I missed the specification in Sturdza, p. 281, given the way it was
formatted. But my error in reading the entry in ES ii, 176 is harder to
fathom. Perhaps you noticed that I even transcribed the word "ungultig"
(which I translated as "invalidated"), but applied it to the first
marriage, to Eirene Palaiologina, rather than to the second, unknown,
Eirene.
In any event, as you suggest, this cuts generation sixteen down to
the single occupant, Prisca of Hungary.
1 Abdul Muzaffar Ismail I d. on 23 May 1524.
3 Halima Begi Aqa d. aft 1499.
7 Theodora Megale Komnene d. aft 1474.
14 Ioannes IV Megas Komnenos d. ca 1460
28 Alexios IV (Basile) Megas Komnenos d. on 28 Oct 1429.
56 Manuel III Achpugas Megas Komnenos d. on 5 Mar 1417.
112 Alexios III (Angelos Dukas Megas Komnenos)
d. on 20 Mar 1390.
224 Basileios Megas Komnenos d. on 6 Apr 1340.
448 Alexios II Palaiologos Megas Komnenos d. on 3 May 1330.
897 Eudokia Palaiologina d. on 12 Dec 1302.
1794 Michael VIII Dukas Angelos Komnenos Palaiologos
d. on 11 Dec 1282.
3588 Andronikos Dukas Komnenos Palaiologos d. in 1247.
3589 Theodora Palaiologina.
7177 Irene Komnene Dasiotissa.
7178 Alexios Komnenos Palaiologos d. in 1201/1204.
14355 Maria Komnene.
14357 Eirene Komnene Kantakuzene.
28710 Androniko Komnenos d. in 1142.
28715 Maria Komnene, same as number 14355
57421 Prisca of Hungary d. on 13 Aug 1134.
This ancestral micro-listing may be confusing because Maria Komnene
married twice. Descendants from these separate marriages, of differing
generations, intermarried. Perhaps a chart would clarify this.
John (Ioannes) II Komnenos = Prisca of Hungary
(Dukas?) | 57421
|
Androniko K. = Eirene
28710 |
|
Theodoros Dasiotos = (1) Marie K. (2) = Ioannes Kantakuzenos
| 14355=28715 |
| |
Alexios P. = Irene D. Dukas P. = Eirene Kantakuzene
| 7177 | 14357
| |
| Alexios P. = Eirene Angelina
| 7178 |
| |
Andronikos P. =================== Theodora P.
3588 | 3589
|
Michael VIII P. = Theodora P.
1794 |
|
Eudokia P.
897
The line of ascent from the thirteenth generation differs from that
originally presented by Frank Johnson on 11 Feb. It also bypasses the
uncertain descent from Prisca through the Angelos family, used by Leo van
de Pas, which was critiqued by William Addams Reitwiesner in his message
of 12 Feb. So, if I haven't made further errors (an eventuality on which
I do not heavily rely :-), I may yet have restored a path from Ismail I to
Charlemagne through Prisca on a more solid footing.
Please ignore the micro-pedigree for Geza II of Hungary which I have
already submitted. I'll not plague the newsgroup with the other ten
micro-pedigrees which I had had in mind.
My thanks to WAR for (once again) sorting me out.
Frank H. Johansen
Alan B. Wilson wrote:
Alan, I'm sorry to report that none of your lines from Prisca to Charlemagne is
supported by Dr. Herbert v. Stoyan's online database... However, I found this on the
ancestors of #6 Rudolf von Rheinfelden:
1. Charlemagne
2. Peppin of Italy
3. Bernhard of Italy
4. Count Peppin
5. Heribert I, Count of Vermandois
6. Kunigunde? of Vermandois, d.aft. 943; m. Udo I, Count in Oberlahngau
7. Konrad II, Duke of Schwaben, d. 20.8.997; m. Judith im Marchthal
8. Konrad (III), Count in Ortenau, d. 24.11.994; m. Beatrix of Lorraine?
9. Kuno, Count of Rheinfelden, d. ca. 1024; m. ? of Burgundy
10. Rudolf of Rheinfelden; m. Adelheid of Torino
11. Adelheid of Rheinfelden; m. Lazslo of Hungary
12. Prisca of Hungary
And now, let's just wait for someone to tear this appart to....... :)
FHJ
Todd A. Farmerie
Richard Borthwick wrote:
>
> At 03:38 AM 11/02/98 -0800, you wrote:
> >
> >>When I've only used Paul Theroff's genfiles, there probably are a lot of
> >>blancs to fill in here...... Could there possibly be a chance of a link
> >>back to great old Charlie somewhere? And what about the connections to
> >>the Georgian Kings?
> >>
> >Charlemagne 742-814
> > I
> > I
> > I
> >Rudolf II, King of Burgundy
> >Aelis/Adelheid of Burgundy 931-999
> >Otto II Holy Roman Emperor 955-983
> >Mathilde of Saxony
> > I
> >Richeza de Lorraine
> > I
> >Richeza/Ryksa of Poland 1018-1052
> > I
> >Laslo I, King of Hungary, 1044-1095
> > I
I just came across another descent to plug this hole. The Spoletan wife
of Rudolf II is traced in such sources as Moriarty and Winkhaus to
Judith, sister of Berenger I of Italy and granddaughter of Louis the
Pious. That would make at least three descents for Otto II if both
Saxon descents are counted.
taf
riskre...@googlemail.com
I have traced directly back to Fath Ali Bahadur Khan Qajar Quyunlu
1686–1726 but am struggling to find the connections between Royal Ark net's Qajar Dynasty lists of rulers (father/uncle-sons) back through Tahmasp I Shah Safavī
1514–1576 and his father Shah Ishmail I.
Is anyone fluent in this subject area? Many thanks in advance.
L Mermod, LMC&bdkt.com
norenxaq via
are you asking whether the founder of the qajars was a safavid descendant? if so, probably not
if there is, I would be interested as well
Henry Soszynski
wrote:
>Imagine my delight to find this group! I am researching the genealogy of Shah Ismail I of Persia on behalf of a living descendant from his maternal grandmother's Heshmat Al Sultaneh lineage. This means another Persian descendant of Charlesmagne indeed.
>
>I have traced directly back to Fath Ali Bahadur Khan Qajar Quyunlu
>
>Is anyone fluent in this subject area? Many thanks in advance.
>
>L Mermod, LMC&bdkt.com
were quite a few Safavid marital connections with the Qajars. Perhaps
the following would also be of interest .....
<quote>There's also a genealogy of them in Shimazu Seitaro, *Sekai
teio keizushu* [Tokyo: Kendo Shuppansha, 1982], p. 182, but my
Japanese isn't really up to he task. M. L. Bierbrier, in "The
descendants of Theodora Comnena of Trebizond", in The Genealogist*
[ASG], vol. 11, no. 2 [Fall 1997], in note 1 on p. 233, refers to an
article by Kursankis in *Archein Pontou* 33 [1977-8] 77-87 and to a
book, J. E. Woods, *The Aqquyunlu* [Minneapolis, 1976], neither of
which I've seen. Theodora was a daughter of John IV, Emperor of
Trebizond (d. 1460), her husband Uzun Hasan was Khan of the Aq-quyunlu
from 1457 to 1478, and their daughter Halima was the mother of Ismail
I (d. 1524), the first Safavid Shah of Persia. <unquote>
Posted by the late William Addams Reitwiesner in this newsgroup on
31st March 2003.