Update on Anne Boteler and Thomas fitzJames FitzGerald

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Jun 24, 2009, 11:56:31 PM6/24/09
Good Evening All,
This, while quite interesting, is very complicated and messy and I
hope that you can follow.

1. For those of you who are unaware, Gerald, 3rd Earl of Desmonds'
wife is Alinore Boteler, dau.of James Boteler, 2nd Earl of Ormonde,
and sister of James Boteler 3rd Earl of Ormonde and aunt to James
Boteler 4th Earl of Ormonde whose dau, Anne is in contracted marriage
to James 6th Earl of Desmond's(Alinore Boteler is his mother) son,
Thomas fitzjames fitzGerald.

So that makes James, E of Ormonde and James, E of Desmond 1st cousins
and their children that are getting married 2nd or 3rd cousins??? and
there must be a papal dispensation somewhere.

To further complicate matters, altho only a sidebar to the original
post, James 3rd E. of Ormonde cohabits with Katherine fitzGerald,
sister of John and James, 4th and 6th E. of Desmond and has 4 sons by
her and in the Calendar of Ormonde Deeds lists the lands etc. that he
gives to them and she then later marries another man. this makes them
1/2 brother and 1/2 cousins to James 4th E of Ormonde and 1/2 cousins
and who knows what else to John and James 4th and 6th E of

2. Volume III, page 34, Calendar of Ormonde Deeds, I.P.M., January 7
1421, James fitz Gerald is called 30 years of age and more, and he is
NOT married yet! this is important as you will soon see. If he is 30 +
in 1421, it means that he was born at least before 1390 and as early
as possibly 1381, his mother Alinore Boteler, died in 1395. C E Wood
in a previous post cannot be right about his son, Thomas fitzJames
fitzGerald as an approx birthdate of 1410, as that would make Thomas a
natural son and he could NOT have become Earl of Desmond, further as
stated in previous posts as per the Calendar of Ormonde Deeds" both
Anne and Thomas were of "tender years of age".

3. April 1422, James, E of Ormonde makes James, E. of Desmond his
seneschal of his lands etc.

More to come tomorrow hopefully, eyes are tire and so are my fingers.
Best Regards,
Emmett L. Butler


Jun 26, 2009, 12:16:42 PM6/26/09

Thank you, Emmett. A relative assures me I descend from those earls.
Whatever! I've created a page for Alinore on the Genealogy Wikia -
http://genealogy.wikia.com/wiki/Alinore_Boteler_(c1370-1395) - and I
would be pleased if you and any reader would have a look at it and
suggest improvements. Estimate of birth year is particularly up for
improvement; probably earlier than 1370, especially if her son James
"the Usurper" was born much before 1390.

On the side issue, "James 3rd E. of Ormonde cohabits with Katherine
fitzGerald, sister of John and James, 4th and 6th E. of Desmond", they
were first cousins, no?



Jun 28, 2009, 9:06:34 PM6/28/09
Good Evening Robin et al,
Katherine Fitzgerald, was James 3rd Earl of Ormondes neice,Alinore was
James sister and katherines mother as well as the mother of John and
James, 4th and 6th E of Desmond.
I went to the site you had posted but only saw Alinores name and some
dates, was there to be anything else?
Best Regards,


Jun 29, 2009, 12:25:59 PM6/29/09

Thank you for the response, Emmett.

Now that I see my tables and return to your text, I see that Katherine
was niece to the third Earl of Ormonde, James, with whom she had a
substantial relationship as you "related". Even harder than "cousin"
to get a dispensation for. And not easy to draw a chart for.

Bother this site and its software! Again it has cut off the last
character of an URL (the closing parenthesis). Google should be
smarter than that. However, all should now be revealed, because I've
converted http://genealogy.wikia.com/wiki/Alinore_Boteler_(c1370-1395
- the wrong URL target page (which you saw) - into an automatic
redirect to the real Alinore page. Her page looks better now than when
I created it, because her list of ancestors is longer, including
Charlemagne, of course, but now going as far as Francus der West-
Franken (57BC-aft1BC), about whom you probably know more than I do,
although he's outside the regular range for this mailing list.

(with or without the closing parenthesis) should get you to him. His
page is partly in Dutch, and it carries a warning about reliability.

You and anyone else on this mailing list would be welcome to offer
critiques of any depicted relationships on the site. Each article page
has a corresponding "discussion" page for that, just as on Wikipedia.

Kind regards

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