Drummonds of Scotland (fwd)
Francisco Antonio Doria
> Dear Pat,
> This is the kind of question that may invite FLACK.
> Almost as bad as asking for the Smith family in England.
> Request a period or an area, do you have a specific Drummond
> who came to the USA, or wherever? Give us his first name.
> The Drummonds are a rather large and interesting family.
> They have close links to the Royal Stewart family and some
> were Jacobites. Have you tried to find a Clan Drummond site
> on the Internet?
Leo, but one can at least tell a bit about that family, truly
fascinating, for sure. They gave Scotland two queens, and from the
second, Annabella Drumond, wife of Robert III, the current queen is
descended. Authentic pedigree goes back to the 13th century, but they
trace a (fantaslic) line all the way up to Attila the Hun, through the
kings of Hungary.
There are several Drummond branches in Brazil, which have been formally
acknowledged several times since John Drummond moved to the Madeira in
the early 15th century. (The last time there was some contact between the
Brazilian and Scottish branches happened in the 60s, when David, Earl of
Perth visited this country and invited some of his - kinsmen, I'm using
his own words - to Stobhall. (Stobhall, the Drummond seat in Scotland
since the 14th century.)
Chico Doria
Doug Holmes
At 06:52 22.5.1998 -0700, Francisco Antonio Doria wrote:
>Leo, but one can at least tell a bit about that family, truly
>fascinating, for sure. They gave Scotland two queens, and from the
>second, Annabella Drumond, wife of Robert III, the current queen is
>descended. Authentic pedigree goes back to the 13th century, but they
>trace a (fantaslic) line all the way up to Attila the Hun, through the
>kings of Hungary.
Can anyone describe this supposed connection via the Magyar kings to
Attila? I've never seen such an attempt.
Doug
William Addams Reitwiesner
do...@dholmes.com (Doug Holmes) wrote:
It's a howl. The only version I've seen was in *Die Ahnen von Irene
Prinzessin zu Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg*, which was typed by
a Dr. Schilling in 1947 in Glücksburg and is retained in the archives
there. The line is on pp. 206-217, and it doesn't just stop at Attila. It
goes like this (most recent people first and then going backwards, not
translated from the German):
Elisabeth die Heilige (+1231) m 1221 Ludwig VI Landgraf von Thüringen
Andreas II, König von Ungarn, 1205-1235
Bela III, ungarischer König, reg 1173-1196
Geysa III, König von Ungarn, 1141-1161
Bela II der Blinde, König von Ungarn, reg 1131-1141
Almos +1129
Ladislaus I der Heilige, König von Ungarn, reg 1077-1095
Bela I, König von Ungarn, reg 1060-1063
Ladislaus der Kahle, ungarischer Prinz, * nach 975
Michael, madjarischer Fürst, * um 950
Toxus, madjarischer Fürst, reg 920-nach 955, * um 900
Zultan III, madjarischer Fürst, * um 870
Arpad, madjarischer Fürst, reg 890-907
Almos II, hunnischer Fürst
Elend
Veget
Veger
Edur II
Sultan II
Almos II
Kulchug
Chazew
Kadiha
Edus I
Chaba, hunnischer Fürst
Attila (gennant Godegisil), hunnischer grosschan, starb 453
Bendekuz gennant Mundiuch, Fürst der Hunnen
Turda, Fürst der Hunnen
Szemen
Ethei
Oposch
Kadcha
Berend
Zultan I
Bulchu
Bolug
Zemtur
Zamur
Leel
Zevent
Kulche
Ompud
Mirka
Mike
Beztur (Baktur), Grosschan der Hunnen, reg 209-174 v.Zw.
Budli
Chamad
Bukem
Bondefard
Tarkens
Othmar
Kadar
Biler
Kear
Kave
Kaled
Dama
Bor, Herrscher der Hunnen
================================================================
Bor's wife, and mother of Dama, is given as Ly-sze, daughter of the Chinese
Emperor Yu-Wang (reigned 781-771 v.Zw. -- note that "v.Zw." means "B.C.").
Yu-Wang was an Emperor of the Chou dynasty. The line back from Ly-sze is
given by Schilling as follows:
================================================================
Ly-sze, Kaiserliche prinzessin von China aus der dynastie Tschou
Yu-wang, Chinesischer Kaiser, reg 781-771 v.Zw.
Hsüan-wang, Chinesischer Kaiser, reg 827-782 v.Zw.
Li-wang, Chinesischer Kaiser, reg 878-827 v.Zw.
Tscheng, kaiserlicher prinz von China
Tschi-fah, kaiserlicher prinz von China
Mu-wang, Chinesischer Kaiser, reg 1001-957 v.Zw.
Tung, Chinesischer Prinzregent
Kang-wang, Chinesischer Kaiser, reg 1078-1052 v.Zw.
Tscheng-wang, Chinesischer Kaiser, reg 1115-1078 v.Zw.
(Fah-)Wu-wang, Chinesischer Kaiser, reg 1135-1115 v.Zw., Begründer der
Dritten Dynastie: Tschou
(Tschang-)Wen-wang, König von Tschou und Tschin, reg 1168-1135 v.Zw.
(Tscheng-)I-wang, Grosskönig von Tschou, reg 1195-1168 v.Zw.
Li-wah, Königlicher Prinz der Tschou und Tschin, u 1200 v.Zw.
Kilik, Herzog von Tschou
Tschan-fu, Herzog von Tschou
Tan-fu, Herzog von Tschou, machte sich 1327 v.Zw.
==================================================================
And there Schilling stops, though not without the helpful information that
Tan-fu is in the 103rd generation back from Princess Irene, and that he is
her ancestor number 11,180,164,869,262,022,086,263,635,968 (using the
standard Kekule method of ancestor numbering).
In case anybody is gasping in shock or horror, I'm not endorsing any of
this descent (at least not before Almos, d. 1129), I'm just reporting what
I've found. I didn't notice if Schilling said where he found the descent.
William Addams Reitwiesner
wr...@erols.com
"Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc."
KHF333
In a message dated 5/22/98 7:01:16 PM, William Addams Reitwiesner wrote:
<<In case anybody is gasping in shock or horror, I'm not endorsing any of
this descent (at least not before Almos, d. 1129), I'm just reporting what
I've found. I didn't notice if Schilling said where he found the descent.>>
No shock nor horror, but it is too bad you did not copy the notes. Likely as
not it is legendary material, but most interesting.
<<Dr. Schilling in 1947 in Glücksburg and is retained in the archives
there. >>
Is there anyone on the list near those archives or planning a trip soon that
could fill us in on the details?
Kenneth Harper Finton
Editor/ Publisher
THE PLANTAGENET CONNECTION
_____________________HT COMMUNICATIONS____________________
PO Box 1401 Arvada, CO 80001 303-657-2723 K...@AOL.com
Homepage: http://members.aol.com/TPConnect
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rleutner
I am not sure if this descent is any more of a hoot than any
number of DFAs we have seen here. Is there anyone who can
give it some serious attention, or shall we just laugh it
off? Where are the really weak spots?
Bob Leutner Iowa City IA
robert-...@uiowa.edu
> In case anybody is gasping in shock or horror, I'm not endorsing any of
> this descent (at least not before Almos, d. 1129), I'm just reporting what
> I've found. I didn't notice if Schilling said where he found the descent.
>
>
>
kur...@geocities.com
In article <3567058e...@news.erols.com>,
[SNIP]
> >Can anyone describe this supposed connection via the Magyar kings to
> >Attila? I've never seen such an attempt.
>
> It's a howl. The only version I've seen was in *Die Ahnen von Irene
> Prinzessin zu Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg*, which was typed by
> a Dr. Schilling in 1947 in Glücksburg and is retained in the archives
> there. The line is on pp. 206-217, and it doesn't just stop at Attila. It
> goes like this (most recent people first and then going backwards, not
> translated from the German):
>
[MEGA-SNIP]
>
> In case anybody is gasping in shock or horror, I'm not endorsing any of
> this descent (at least not before Almos, d. 1129), I'm just reporting what
> I've found. I didn't notice if Schilling said where he found the descent.
>
> William Addams Reitwiesner
I believe that a similar line back to Attila may be found in the old Hübner's
Genealogische Tabellen, but I do not have my copy here with me, so I cannot
give the reference. But, as with a lot in Hübner, there are more than good
reasons why to be extremely cautious.
Best wishes,
Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
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Carol Collins
In article <1998052219...@web1.sl.net>, do...@dholmes.com (Doug
Holmes) wrote:
> At 06:52 22.5.1998 -0700, Francisco Antonio Doria wrote:
> >Leo, but one can at least tell a bit about that family, truly
> >fascinating, for sure. They gave Scotland two queens, and from the
> >second, Annabella Drumond, wife of Robert III, the current queen is
> >descended. Authentic pedigree goes back to the 13th century, but they
> >trace a (fantaslic) line all the way up to Attila the Hun, through the
> >kings of Hungary.
> >Chico Doria
>
> Can anyone describe this supposed connection via the Magyar kings to
> Attila? I've never seen such an attempt.
>
> Doug
If a brand new reader may reply: According to Henry Drummond's "History
of Noble British Families" the line goes like this:
Malcolm II, 5th hereditary Thane of LEnnox, d. 1200, son of:
John, 4th Thane of Lennox, d. 1180; and Gilchrist, d. 1199, sons of:
Maurice, 3rd Hereditary Thane of Lennox, d. 1155, son of
Malcolm, 2nd Seneschall and Coronator of Lennox (Pict) and Maurice, sons of:
Mauritz, friend and companion of Malcolm, accompanied QWueen Margaret on
return to England from Hungary, killed with
King at Alnwick, son of:
George, m. Agatha, dau. Gundolph Podiebradius, Grandduke of Bohemia;
Solomon, d. 1087, m. Sophia, dau. Emporer Henry III; Adelheid, m.
Wratyxlaus, King of Bohemia and David, children of:
Andrew I, King of Hungary, killed by brother Bela 1058, m. 1) Anastasia of
Russia (mother of George, above), 2) Agmunda; also Bela I, Leventa,
children of:
Ladislaus Calvus and Magul, sons of:
Michael; Griza, m. Ascolta, dau. of Guila, Price Transilvania; agnes, m.
Arnolph Malus, Duke of Bavarioa; Beatrice, m. Elderhard, Duke of
Carenthia; children of:
Toxus, d. 990, reihned 90 years, ast pagan King.
Here Drummond says that several generations are lost: then:
Zolton, King of Hungary, Charlemagne marched against him in 805.
Arpadius, King of Hungary, d. 748
Almas, brought 215,999 Huns from Scythia to Hungary 744;
Avarius, King of huns, accepted crown of Hungary
Elendus, gret among Huns
Vegerus (Vergerus), returned to Scythia
Elus
Chola
Attila the Hund, b. 330 at Ingaddi, "King of Huns, Swedes, Goths and
Danes, terror of the world and the scourge of God" Killed by Bleda 444,on
the night of marriage to the fair Ildica at age of 124; m. 1) Herriche,
dau. of Emperor Honorius, 2) Chrenchildis, 3) Ildica
Confusing enough?
Carol Collins
Todd A. Farmerie
Carol Collins wrote:
>
> Malcolm, 2nd Seneschall and Coronator of Lennox (Pict) and Maurice, sons of:
>
> Mauritz, friend and companion of Malcolm, accompanied QWueen Margaret on
> return to England from Hungary, killed with
> King at Alnwick, son of:
>
> George, m. Agatha, dau. Gundolph Podiebradius, Grandduke of Bohemia;
> Solomon, d. 1087, m. Sophia, dau. Emporer Henry III; Adelheid, m.
> Wratyxlaus, King of Bohemia and David, children of:
I know of no other source which provides Andrew with a son George, and
grandson Mauritz. While it could be true, it smells of invention.
> Andrew I, King of Hungary, killed by brother Bela 1058, m. 1) Anastasia of
> Russia (mother of George, above), 2) Agmunda; also Bela I, Leventa,
> children of:
>
> Ladislaus Calvus and Magul, sons of:
More recent work has Andrew and Bela as nephews of Ladislaw, not sons.
> Michael; Griza, m. Ascolta, dau. of Guila, Price Transilvania; agnes, m.
> Arnolph Malus, Duke of Bavarioa; Beatrice, m. Elderhard, Duke of
> Carenthia; children of:
>
> Toxus, d. 990, reihned 90 years, ast pagan King.
>
> Here Drummond says that several generations are lost: then:
> Zolton, King of Hungary, Charlemagne marched against him in 805.
> Arpadius, King of Hungary, d. 748
> Almas, brought 215,999 Huns from Scythia to Hungary 744;
I am not sure any generations are lost above. Most accounts I have seen
place Almos, Arpad and Zolton later in history, and Zoltan is made
father of "Toxus" (elsewhere Taksony).
taf
Frank H. Johansen
Carol Collins wrote:
> [BIG SNIP!]
>
> Here Drummond says that several generations are lost: then:
> Zolton, King of Hungary, Charlemagne marched against him in 805.
> Arpadius, King of Hungary, d. 748
> Almas, brought 215,999 Huns from Scythia to Hungary 744;
> Avarius, King of huns, accepted crown of Hungary
> Elendus, gret among Huns
> Vegerus (Vergerus), returned to Scythia
> Elus
> Chola
> Attila the Hund, b. 330 at Ingaddi, "King of Huns, Swedes, Goths and
> Danes, terror of the world and the scourge of God"
King of Swedes, Goths and Danes? WHAT? As far as I have heard he never set his
foot in the land of the Danes or the land of the Swedes (both actually in the
present-day Sweden). Then their is "Goths". Does it mean visigoths and
ostrogoths (goter) or "Göter", a Swedish tribe?
> Killed by Bleda 444,on
> the night of marriage to the fair Ildica at age of 124; m. 1) Herriche,
> dau. of Emperor Honorius, 2) Chrenchildis, 3) Ildica
>
> Confusing enough?
Yes
Regards
Frank H. Johansen
Kennwalrus
Colorful characters like Attila pick up legends the way silver spoons pick up
tarnish. Wiping a little off: he died, apparently of an apoplectic stroke, in
453, not 444 (although it *was* on a marriage night); he was not killed by, but
indeed killed, Bleda, in 445; he married no daughter of Honorius (who probably
wouldn't have given a daughter a Germanic name); I don't know for sure about
"Chrenchildis," but have never run across it, and rather suspect it of being a
gross corruption of the name of the supposed first wife. (Or vice versa, as
"Herriche," though apparently Germanic, resembles no *other* Germanic name I've
seen, at least of that period.) Finally, his age is completely unknown, though
it seems a fair bet that he was less than half the way to 124.
I'm not sure where this legendary material comes from, though I believe the
_Nibelungenlied_ features Attila; if I ever read it, though, it was in
childhood, and I remember nothing about it. (I do recall reading, at nine or
so, what I take to have been an adaptation of the _N._, called _Sigurd of the
Volsungs_. Or is the _Volsungssaga_ entirely separate?)
An entirely different descent from Attila has been proposed by some, on the
basis of (a) Charlemagne's postulated descent from Austricusa, a princess of
the later Gepidae, and (b) a claim, on the part of the Gepid kings, to descent
from Ardaric, at first Attila's lieutenant, then king of the Gepidae, who
supposedly married a daughter of Attila. (As a polygamist, he doubtless had a
good many to throw around.) Full details of the royal Gepid pedigree are,
however, unrecoverable, and the claim of Attilanic descent may be taken at face
value or rejected, as one sees fit.
Todd A. Farmerie
Kennwalrus wrote:
>
> I'm not sure where this legendary material comes from, though I believe the
> _Nibelungenlied_ features Attila; if I ever read it, though, it was in
> childhood, and I remember nothing about it. (I do recall reading, at nine or
> so, what I take to have been an adaptation of the _N._, called _Sigurd of the
> Volsungs_. Or is the _Volsungssaga_ entirely separate?)
I don't think Nibelungenlied is the source for this material.
(Volsungssaga is, by the way, an independent story involving some of the
same charachters.) In N, the story does not center on Attila, and all
we get is that he was a great pagan (but tollerant) king in the area
around Vienna (sorry, Wien) who had a lovely and generous first wife,
and a generous and vengeful second wife, and his court brought together
knights from across Europe, most of whom were killed in the grand
finale.
taf
GLAUC...@aol.com
In a message dated 98-05-27 10:10:01 EDT, you write:
<< I don't think Nibelungenlied is the source for this material.
(Volsungssaga is, by the way, an independent story involving some of the
same charachters.) In N, the story does not center on Attila, and all
we get is that he was a great pagan (but tollerant) king in the area
around Vienna (sorry, Wien) who had a lovely and generous first wife,
and a generous and vengeful second wife, and his court brought together
knights from across Europe, most of whom were killed in the grand
finale. >>
Todd,
I agree that Nibelungenlied is not the source, with a few modifications. (Just
happened to be reading it). Gunther, Kriemhild, Hagen and Siegfried were found
at the Burgundian court for many years according to the story (Siegfried
originally coming from the Netherlands). After Siegfried was betrayed, his
wife Kriemhild eventually married Etzel (Attila?), a tolerant pagan king in
Hungary. She avenged her first husband Siegfried's death at the hands of
Hagen, but it cost many others their lives as well. But it occurs to me that
perhaps you were discussing Wagner's version which is considerably different
from the medieval version.
Lloyd King
Todd A. Farmerie
GLAUC...@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 98-05-27 10:10:01 EDT, you write:
>
> << I don't think Nibelungenlied is the source for this material.
> (Volsungssaga is, by the way, an independent story involving some of the
> same charachters.) In N, the story does not center on Attila, and all
> we get is that he was a great pagan (but tollerant) king in the area
> around Vienna (sorry, Wien) who had a lovely and generous first wife,
> and a generous and vengeful second wife, and his court brought together
> knights from across Europe, most of whom were killed in the grand
> finale. >>
>
> happened to be reading it). Gunther, Kriemhild, Hagen and Siegfried were found
> at the Burgundian court for many years according to the story (Siegfried
> originally coming from the Netherlands). After Siegfried was betrayed, his
> wife Kriemhild eventually married Etzel (Attila?), a tolerant pagan king in
> Hungary. She avenged her first husband Siegfried's death at the hands of
> Hagen, but it cost many others their lives as well. But it occurs to me that
> perhaps you were discussing Wagner's version which is considerably different
> from the medieval version.
No, my comments were based on the medieval version, but I restricted
them to Attila/Etzel (Kreimhild being the second wife I mentioned). Of
course it is all so far removed from anything reliable that it is
pointless to discuss the fine details in this group.
taf
Denis Beauregard
do...@dholmes.com (Doug Holmes) wrote:
do...@dholmes.com (Doug Holmes) écrivait:
>At 06:52 22.5.1998 -0700, Francisco Antonio Doria wrote:
>>Leo, but one can at least tell a bit about that family, truly
>>fascinating, for sure. They gave Scotland two queens, and from the
>>second, Annabella Drumond, wife of Robert III, the current queen is
>>descended. Authentic pedigree goes back to the 13th century, but they
>>trace a (fantaslic) line all the way up to Attila the Hun, through the
>>kings of Hungary.
>>Chico Doria
>
>Can anyone describe this supposed connection via the Magyar kings to
>Attila? I've never seen such an attempt.
Quite simple. Attila was a HUN. And this is the same HUN as
in HUNgry. While the old lines are not always fully proven,
once someone take the controle of a country, chances are good
so that person is the ancestor of the kings of that country. So,
chances are good the 13th century kings of Hungry are descendant
from Attila the Hun. But, little chances that the line is
100% proven without controversy.
Denis, a former descendant of Attila the Hun by previous lines
in my tree, revised later :-)
--
0 Denis Beauregard
/\/
|\ Le genealogiste en action
/ | Pages de genealogie
oo oo http://www.cam.org/~beaur/gen/index.html
Leo van de Pas
>>Can anyone describe this supposed connection via the Magyar kings to
>>Attila? I've never seen such an attempt.
>
>Quite simple. Attila was a HUN. And this is the same HUN as
>in HUNgry. While the old lines are not always fully proven,
>once someone take the controle of a country, chances are good
>so that person is the ancestor of the kings of that country. So,
>chances are good the 13th century kings of Hungry are descendant
>from Attila the Hun. But, little chances that the line is
>100% proven without controversy.
>
>Denis, a former descendant of Attila the Hun by previous lines
>in my tree, revised later :-)
Are you serious? The Huns were one tribe from Asia, the Magyars
another. You may be Hungry to prove a descent from Attila but that
Hungry has nothing to do with Hungary.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Kennwalrus
FWIW, Settipani's reconstruction of Charlemagne's ancestry suggests a somewhat
more plausible descent from Attila. (More plausible, that is, on grounds of
overall historical situation, and relative temporal contiguity.) According to
S., one of C.'s ancestresses is Austricusa, apparently attested as a Gepid
princess. What isn't attested is which Gepid king was her father; it has been
suggested, on chronological grounds, that it was Elemund. The 6th-century
Gepid kings apparently claimed descent from the first Gepid king, Ardaric, who
had initially served (in the vicinity of 450) as a henchman of Attila; it was
also claimed that Ardaric had married a daughter of Attila (presumably one of
many, as Attila seems to have been a polygamist). It seems that at least some
royal Gepids of the 5th century claimed descent from that marriage. (My
apologies for the vagueness of this acount; partly due to incompleteness of
detail in the originals, partly to the fact that I recount from memory.)
As for the claim on the part of the Magyar kings to descend from Attila: I
imagine that the "Hun-" in "Hungary" *does* have something to do with THE Huns
(though my world wouldn't crumple like tinfoil if I were shown to be wrong in
this presumption). However, most scholars seem to have concluded, after long
and fierce dispute, that the Magyars were much later invaders who swept away
what remnant of the Huns remained. This in itself would hardly convince me,
but, more to the point, I've seen the claimed pedigree, *somewhere*, and (as I
recall) it fails the first test in assessing any such document: the number of
generations claimed to link the earliest (historically attested, and
chronologically placeable) Magyar kings with Attila was far too few.
Where might it have been written up for a 'westerner'? Anderson's royal
genealogies, perhaps? (In its way, I might point out, an excellent source:
not for factual pedigrees, but as a repository of various legends and
traditions -- Anderson is, in his own odd way, quite scrupulously scholarly:
he's quick to state that his sources disagree with one another, and lays out
the various asserted pedigrees _in extenso_. Some of these, in some cases,
though incorrect as they stand, may have some distorted basis in fact. Not all
incorrect traditional pedigrees are simply imaginary, or due to interested
deceit: some rest upon honest misunderstanding of historical fact.)
Chris Bennett
Kennwalrus <kennw...@aol.com> wrote in article
<199806221317...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
> FWIW, Settipani's reconstruction of Charlemagne's ancestry suggests a
somewhat
> more plausible descent from Attila. (More plausible, that is, on grounds
of
> overall historical situation, and relative temporal contiguity.)
According to
> S., one of C.'s ancestresses is Austricusa, apparently attested as a
Gepid
> princess. What isn't attested is which Gepid king was her father; it has
been
> suggested, on chronological grounds, that it was Elemund. The
6th-century
> Gepid kings apparently claimed descent from the first Gepid king,
Ardaric, who
> had initially served (in the vicinity of 450) as a henchman of Attila; it
was
> also claimed that Ardaric had married a daughter of Attila (presumably
one of
> many, as Attila seems to have been a polygamist). It seems that at least
some
> royal Gepids of the 5th century claimed descent from that marriage. (My
> apologies for the vagueness of this acount; partly due to incompleteness
of
> detail in the originals, partly to the fact that I recount from memory.)
<snip>
I have never seen the statement that Ardaric married a daughter of Attila
-- do you (or anyone else) have a source for this?
At the end of his book on the first Bulgarian empire, Runciman discusses an
outline pedigree of the Bulgars, which implies that Kubrat, first khan of
the Bulgars, was a descendant of Ernak, Attila's youngest son, although the
intermediate generations are missing (some may be supplied by Byzantine
accounts of the Kutrigur -- or is it Utrigur? -- Huns.) Accepting this to
be true FTSOA we are not much better off -- there are no descents known
(AFAIK) from the house of Kubrat. But it does suggest a path by which
descendants of Attila may well exist.
Chris
Doug Holmes
At 19:26 21.6.1998 +0000, Denis Beauregard wrote:
>do...@dholmes.com (Doug Holmes) wrote:
>do...@dholmes.com (Doug Holmes) écrivait:
>>
>>Attila? I've never seen such an attempt.
>
>Quite simple. Attila was a HUN. And this is the same HUN as
>in HUNgry.
This is the point in which your statement has no value. HUN in Hungary does
not equal Hun from Attila.
Some reading of history will help clarify this for you.
Doug
Kennwalrus
Chris Bennett writes:
"I have never seen the statement that Ardaric married a daughter of Attila --
do you (or anyone else) have a source for this?"
I'll see what I can turn up among my papers, although I promise nothing: their
disorganization is now just about hopeless.
Doug Holmes
At 02:53 23.6.1998 +0000, Denis Beauregard wrote:
>In the 400s, Attila the Hun settled the area of Hungary (actually
>not the same border). He more or less retired there.
>
>In the 800s, the Magyars, also from Asia, invaded the same area.
>So, modern Hungarians are probably descendants of the Magyar.
>But the name could be derived from the Hun (I have no evidence
>of that so far, just beginning my search). However, those
>Magyar are likely the ancestors of later Kings of Hungary.
>Why was this called Hungary and not Magyary is probably a matter
>of geography, not of demographics... An opinion...
>
>Denis
The Hungarians never called themselves that. They've always called
themselves "magyar" pronounced MOD-YAR (pretty close, anyway).
Attila, I believe off the top of my head, quickly pulled out of the
Carpathian basin, where the current Hungary, Slovakia, etc, are today, and
returned home for some reason because I think he was being attacked from
elsewhere or someone died in his family...can't recall it.
"Hungary" came into use because that's what others called them, thinking
they came from the Huns, as you originally said. Their country is "Magyar"
plus "orszag" (country) which put together is "Magyarorszag" (country of
the magyars).
Leslie Mahler
The Hungarians never called themselves that. They've always called themselves "magyar" pronounced MOD-YAR (pretty close, anyway). Attila, I believe off the top of my head, quickly pulled out of the Carpathian basin, where the current Hungary, Slovakia, etc, are today, and returned home for some reason because I think he was being attacked from elsewhere or someone died in his family...can't recall it.
"Hungary" came into use because that's what others called them, thinking they came from the Huns, as you originally said. Their country is "Magyar" plus "orszag" (country) which put together is "Magyarorszag" (country of the magyars). Doug www.dholmes.com/hafs.html
Leslie
Denis Beauregard
>At 19:26 21.6.1998 +0000, Denis Beauregard wrote:
>>do...@dholmes.com (Doug Holmes) wrote:
>>do...@dholmes.com (Doug Holmes) écrivait:
>>>
>>>Can anyone describe this supposed connection via the Magyar kings to
>>>Attila? I've never seen such an attempt.
>>
>>Quite simple. Attila was a HUN. And this is the same HUN as
>>in HUNgry.
>
>This is the point in which your statement has no value. HUN in Hungary does
>not equal Hun from Attila.
>Some reading of history will help clarify this for you.
I read a little about that, tonite.
In the 400s, Attila the Hun settled the area of Hungary (actually
not the same border). He more or less retired there.
In the 800s, the Magyars, also from Asia, invaded the same area.
So, modern Hungarians are probably descendants of the Magyar.
But the name could be derived from the Hun (I have no evidence
of that so far, just beginning my search). However, those
Magyar are likely the ancestors of later Kings of Hungary.
Why was this called Hungary and not Magyary is probably a matter
of geography, not of demographics... An opinion...
Denis
--
Todd A. Farmerie
Doug Holmes wrote:
>
> The Hungarians never called themselves that. They've always called
> themselves "magyar" pronounced MOD-YAR (pretty close, anyway).
I am told that the pronounciation can almost sound like mudge-ul, and I
know of a few of instances where this resulted in the surname Major (or
variants).
taf
Doug Holmes
That might be, but my phonetic attempt is very close and if you heard me
say it, you would see what I mean. The hard part is the GY combo which has
no equivalent in English. In Slovak the same sound is created by the
d-hachek and they can both be approximated by running two words like "and
you" together quickly. The resulting d-y from And You is exactly the sound
of the GY in Magyar.
Doug Holmes
Hungarian/American Friendship Society