De Coligny, De Laval, Musse, De Meullon, d'Entremont
Chris Thomas
the "big pond" and I'm looking for as much verification as I can find.
Gaspard de Coligny was a leader of the Protestant movement and was killed
during the St Bartholemew's Day Massacre. His father was Admiral of France
and married a Charlotte de Laval who died in 1568. Any help would be
greatly appreciated.
Chris Thomas
ct9...@gte.net
Descendants of Nicolas Mousche Musse
1 Nicolas MUIS b: 1540 in Gryon, Switzerland d: August 25, 1572 in
Paris, France
. +Jeanne DE MEULLON b: 1545 m: June 05, 1569 d: Unknown Father: Mother:
2 Claude Antoine Mius DE MEULLON b: 1570 in Normandy, France d: Unknown
in Savoy, France
.. +Beatrice DE COLIGNY b: 1572 in Savoy, France m: June 17, 1600 in Savoy,
France d: Unknown in Savoy, France Father: Admiral of France, Gaspard II de
Coligny Mother: Jacqueline De Montbel
3 Philippe Mius D'ENTREMONT b: November 14, 1601 in Cherbourg, Normandy
FR d: 1700 in Pobomcoup, Acadia
.. +Madeleine HELIE DU TILLET b: 1626 in Cherbourg, Normandy, France m:
1640 in Calvados France (possibly as late as 1649) d: 1679 in Pobomcoup,
Acadia Father: Jacques Helie Du Tillet Mother: Francoise Faucon
or
Descendants of Gaspard de Coligny
1 [1] ADMIRAL OF FRANCE, GASPARD II DE COLIGNY b: February 16, 1519 in
Chatillon-sur-Loing, France d: August 24, 1572 in Paris, France
. +Jacqueline DE MONTBEL b: 1545 in Isere, France m: March 24, 1571 in
LaRochelle, France d: 1572 in Isere, France Father: Sebastien De Montbel,
Count d'Entremont Mother: Beatrix Escalona
2 Beatrice DE COLIGNY b: 1572 in Savoy, France d: Unknown in Savoy,
France
.. +Claude Antoine Mius DE MEULLON b: 1570 in Normandy, France m: June 17,
1600 in Savoy, France d: Unknown in Savoy, France Father: Nicolas Muis
Mother: Jeanne de Meullon
3 Philippe Mius D'ENTREMONT b: November 14, 1601 in Cherbourg, Normandy
FR d: 1700 in Pobomcoup, Acadia
.. +Madeleine HELIE DU TILLET b: 1626 in Cherbourg, Normandy, France m:
1640 in Calvados France (possibly as late as 1649) d: 1679 in Pobomcoup,
Acadia Father: Jacques Helie Du Tillet Mother: Francoise Faucon
*2nd Wife of [1] Gaspard de Coligny:
. +Charlotte DE LAVAL b: Unknown m: Unknown d: March 03, 1568 Father:
Mother:
If God only gives us as much as we can handle,
He must have an awfully high opinion of me!!!
Acadienne et fiere, Chris (ct9...@gte.net)
Muskegon, Michigan
MTaHT
The connection of generation 1 to parents is from
a theory by Jo M.C.Smith, the rest is my compilation
from various references, primarily Chenaye-Desbois,
Dictionnaire de la Noblesse...
1 HELIE, Madeleine (du Tillet?)
b.1610? ID a theory; d.30 Sep 1692 France
m1. 1631
MIUS D'ENTREMONT, Philippe sgr.dePobomcoup
alleged son of [ClaudeAntoine/COLIGNY,Beatrix],
b.1609 ID a theory; d.1700 Pobomcoup,Acadie
He and his wife arrived at Port Royal in 1651 on the
staff of Gen. Charles de Latour. He was awarded
the title- Seigneur de Pobomcoup by Latour in 1653.
He resided in Pobomcoup shortly thereafter. He served
as temporary Governor of Acadie when Charles Latour
was absent. Given Name: Francois Virginie.
--- Parents
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------
2 TILLET DE NOGENT, Helie 2 brn.du, b.1576?
m1.18 Jul 1604;
3 FAUCON, Francoise de, b.1590?
---
Grandparents--------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------
4 TILLET DE NOGENT, Jean 2 brn.du, b.1540?
m1.13 Sep 1567
5 NICOLAI, Jeanne de, b.1550?, d.17 Jun 1576
6 FAUCON, Claude sgr.Ris laBorde, b.1536; d.1601 Paris
7 MONTMAGNY, Etienette Huault de, b.1560?
--- ggParents
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------
8 TILLET, Jean 1 sr.du, b.1510?
m1.9 Feb 1533
9 BRINON, Jeanne de, b.1515?
10 NICOLAI, Louis Aimar sr.s.Victor-Louvre, b.1510?
11 BAILLET, Anne, b.1510?
12 FAUCON, Alexandre sgr.Ris laBorde, b.1500? Montpellier; d.1580
m1.10 Sep 1529
13 ALBIAC, Francoise d', b.1510?
14 MONTMAGNY, Louis Huault sgr.de, b.1520?; d.19 Nov 1576
15 GRANGE, Claire deBillon dela, b.1530?
--- 2ggParents
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------
16 TILLET, Helie 1 sr.du, b.1460?
Was chief of finances for Charles d'Orleans Ct.Angouleme.
17 PETITOT, Mathurine de, b.1480?
18 BRINON, Jean 2 sr.dePontillaud, b.1490?; d.2 Oct 1570
19 LUILLIER, Jeanne, b.1490?
20 NICOLAI, Jean 2 de, b.1490?; d.1524
m1.15 Feb 1502
21 VESC, Claire de, b.1490?
22 BAILLET, Thibaut sr.Sceaux, b.1445; d.19 Nov 1525
23 AUNOY, Jeanne deTresmes Silly d', b.1480?
24 FALCONI, Falco de, b.1470? Florence
25 BUCELLI, Carlotta de, b.1470? Florence
26 ALBIAC, Charles sr.Ris laBorde, b.1470?
--- 3ggParents
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------
32 TILLET, Naudin sr.du, b.1420?
36 BRINON, Jean 1 sr.Moulins, b.1450? Moulins
37 BOYLESVE, Marguerite de, b.1450?
38 LUILLIER, Philippe sr.Gironville, b.1450?; d.1492 Paris
39 MORVILLIER, Anne de, b.1460?
40 NICOLAI, Jean 1 de, b.1460?
41 AUDIGIER, Bonne Bedocie, b.1460?
42 VESC, Claude sr.Montjoux de, b.1460?
44 BAILLET, Jean 2 sr.deSceaux, b.1410?; d.1477
45 FRESNES, Nicole dePotherive du, b.1410?
46 AUNOY, Philippe 3 sgr.Silly d', b.1450?
47 MONTMORENCY, Catherine de, b.1450?
48 FALCONI, Alexandre de, b.1440? Florence
--- 4ggParents
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------
64 TILLET, Seigneur du, b.1370?
65 HAUTEFAYE, Marie de, b.1370?
72 BRINON, Guillaume 2 sr.Vilaines, b.1420?
74 BOYLESVE, Jean 3 sgr.Forjan de, b.1415?
m1.10 Jul 1444
75 DANON, Anne, b.1420?
78 MORVILLIER, Pierre sr.Clery Charenton, b.1413; d.15 Nov 1476
79 BOUCHER, Jeanne de, b.1420?
84 VESC, Rostaing sr.Montjoux de, b.1430?
85 DAUPHINE', Delphine Arnaud de, b.1430?
88 BAILLET, Pierre sr.deSceaux, b.1390?
89 VITRY, Marie de, b.1390?
90 FRESNES, Pierre sr.Potherive du, b.1390?
92 AUNOY, Jean Gallois chv.d', b.1410?
93 ROUVROY, Isabeau de, b.1422?
94 MONTMORENCY, Charles sr.Goussainville, b.1390?
95 RATAUT, Jeanne [], b.1390?
96 FALCONI, Jean 3 de, b.1410?
--- 5ggParents
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------
128 TILLET, Raimond sr.Estaulles du, b.1340?
130 HAUTEFAYE, Geofroy de [] b.1350?
131 LAMBERT, Alymunde [], b.1350?
144 BRINON, Guillaume 1 sr.Vilaines [] b.1380?
148 BOYLESVE, Pierre sgr.Forjan de, b.1370?
m1.25 Jan 1414 Beauge, Anjou;
149 COUE, Perrette de, b.1390?
150 DANON, Emery sgr.delaBouxliere, b.1390?
151 MONTBERON, Eleonore de, b.1390?
156 MORVILLIER, Philippe sr.Clery Charenton, b.1380?
157 DRAC, Jeanne du, b.1380?
158 BOUCHER, Bureau sr.Piscop Orsay, b.1390?; d.1461
159 ORSAY, Gillette deRagueir d' [], b.1390?
176 BAILLET, Jean 1 sr.de, b.1350?
177 AY, Jacqueline vcts.d', b.1350?
178 VITRY, Gilles sgr.Goupilleres de, b.1360?
179 ALEXANDRE, Jeanne [], b.1370?,
184 AUNOY, CharlesGallois chv.d', b.1380?
185 PAILLARD, Jacqueline de, b.1380?
186 ROUVROY, Gautier sr.St.Simon, b.1390?
m1.8 Jun 1422
187 SARREBRUCK, Marie de, b.1400?
188 MONTMORENCY, sr.Goussainville de, b.1360?
192 FALCONI, Ser de [Jean 2] b.1380? Italy
--- 6ggParents
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------
256 TILLET, Hugues 1 sr.Villars du, b.1300?
257 VILLE, Anne de [], b.1310?
296 BOYLESVE, Jean 2 sgr.Forjan de, b.1340?
m1. 1360
297 BRICONNET, Andree de [], b.1340
298 COUE, Jean sr.de [] b.1370?
299 ROY, Jeanne le [], b.1370?
302 MONTBERON, Jacques mrshl.France de, b.1360?; d.1422
303 MAULEVRIER, Marie de, b.1370?
312 MORVILLIER, Raoul sr.Clery Charenton, b.1350?
313 ST.FUSCIEN, Isabelle de [], b.1350?
314 DRAC, Jean du, pres.Parlement, b.1350?
315 AY, Jacqueline d', b.1350?
316 BOUCHER, Arnoul 1,sr.Piscop Tresorier, b.1360?
317 GENTIEN, Jeanne, b.1360?
352 BAILLET, Henri,tresorier deFrance, b.1320?
353 ESSARTS, Jeanne des, b.1320?
354 AY, Jean vct.d', b.1320?; d.1381
356 VITRY, Simon de, b.1320?
368 AUNOY, Robert Gallois chv.d', b.1360?
m1. 1380
369 SAIMPY, Mahaud de [], b.1360?
370 PAILLARD, Philibert pres.Parlement de, b.1350?
371 DORMANS, Jeanne de, b.1350?
372 ROUVROY, Mathieu 2 sr.St.Simon, b.1360?; d.1415 Azincourt
373 HAVERSKERQUE, Jeanne de, b.1360?
374 SARREBRUCK, Ame sgr.Commercy de, b.1370?; d.1411
375 CHATEAUVILLAIN, Marie duThil de, b.1370?
376 MONTMORENCY, Mathieu sr.Goussainville, b.1325?
377 VENDOME, Eglantine de [], b.1340?
384 FALCONI, Jean 2 de, b.1350? Italy
--- 7ggParents
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------
512 TILLET, Guillaume 1 sr.du [Pierre 1 sr.du] b.1280?; d.5 Jan 1332
592 BOYLESVE, Jean 1 sgr.Forjan de [Louis chv/CIERCEY,Jeanne] b.1300?
m1. 1330
593 VILLENEUVE, Blanche de [Robert chv], b.1310?
604 MONTBERON, Robert 6 sr.Magnac de [Robert 5 sgr/PORTE,Galienne dela]
b.1330?
605 MASTAS, Yolande deBoiffet de [Robert 3 sgr/THOUARS,Marie], b.1330?
606 MAULEVRIER, Renaud 6 b.Neufbourg de [Robert 2 brn] b.1340?; d.1398
m1. 1360
607 CRAON, Marie Beatrix de [Guillaume/FLANDERS,Marguerite], b.1340?,
d.1392
[] = [Parents of person to the left, Dad/Mom]
{} = {ahnentafel # of 1st.occurrance of this person}
? = Data is a guess or is otherwise believed unreliable.
Hope this helps. Any additions or corrections appreciated.
Mike Talbot
MTaHT
The ancestral identity of Philippe Mius sr.d'Entremont (Charles Latour's second
in command, post 1651) and wife, Madeleine Helie of Acadia have never been
proven. The information that you have was a theory propossed over a decade ago
by a Mrs. Jo Smith of Baton Rouge.
In her theory (never claimed by her as fact) Adm. Gaspard de COLIGNY's second
wife, Jacqueline cts. d'Entremont de MONTBEL of Isere, Savoie was the Acadian
d'Entremont ancestress, not Gaspard's first wife, Charlottte de LAVAL.
It will take me a day or so, but I will post the pedigrees of these "alledged
Mius" ancestors along with the du Tillet ancestors. These are very interesting
medieval French families that may also be of use to others.
While the pedigrees will be real, please be aware that their connection to the
Acadian MIUS d'Entremont family is still just an interesting but unproven
theory (some claim that it has been disproven by handwrining analysis).
The connection to Nicolas Mius/Meusse (died defending the wounded admirals door
on that St.Barthelemy's Day in 1572), the aide and German interpretor of
Admiral Gaspard 2 de Coligny is probably real, but also is not sufficiently
proven.
A MIUS descendant in Louisiana via 6 lines,
how I wish it were true.
Mike Talbot
MTaHT
message on this topic. Part 2 to follw.
The relationship of generation 1 to parents is
a speculative theory by Jo M.C.Smith. The rest is
my compilation of data from various references,
primarily Chenaye-Desbois, Dict.de la Noblesse...
1 MIUS D'ENTREMONT, Philipe sgr.dePobomcoup
b.1609 ID a theory; d.ca.1700 Pobomcoup,Acadie
He and his wife arrived in Acadia in 1651 on the staff of
Maj.Gen. Charles de LaTour. He was awarded the title- Seigneur
de Pobomcoup by LaTour in 1653. He resided in Pobomcoup shortly
thereafter. He served as temporary Governor of Acadie when
Charles de LaTour was absent. The son of Claude Antoine
married to Madeleine duTillet was named Francois Virginie.
m1. 1631
HELIE, Madeleine (duTillet?), b.1610? ID a theory based
on the alleged ID of her husband. d.30 Sep 1692 France
--- Parents
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------
2 MEULLON, Claude Antoine de Montauban de
b.1570?, allegedly adopted by friends of Adm.Coligny.
For the theory to be true, he must be the adopted son of the
gov.de Marseille and wife, and the genetic son of Nicolas Mius.
Parents of Philippe Mius are speculation and a
theory of Mrs. Jo M.C.Smith. All of this is pretty "ify"
with no proof. Meullon spelling as per
Dictionnaire de la Noblesse...
3 COLIGNY, Beatrix cts.d'Entremont [Gaspard 2 adm/MONTBEL,Jacqueline],
b.21 Dec 1572 Chatillon-surLoing
---
Grandparents--------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------
4 MIUS, Nicolas, b.1530? German interp. for Coligny;
d.24 Aug 1572 St.Barthelemy's Day Massacre.
The German interpreter of Adm.Gaspard de Coligny.
His children were adopted by friends and members of
the admiral's family after the massacre.
m1.5 Jun 1569
5 Jeanne
The Mius daughters, Charlotte and Louise are mentioned
in the will of the wife of Wm.the Silent, prince of
Orange-Nassau.
6 COLIGNY, Gaspard 2 adm.de, b.16 Feb 1519 Chatillon surLong;
d.24 Aug 1572 St.Barthelemy Day Massacre.
He became a Huguenot in 1560 at the urging of his brother,
Francois. He became the leader of the movement in 1569 upon
the death of the Prince de Conde (Louis I de Bourbon-Conde).
NOTE----> Other wife m1.16 Jun 1547; LAVAL, Charlotte de
dau.of [Guy 16 ct/DAILLON,Antoinette]b.1530?
m2.24 Mar 1571 LaRochelle;
7 MONTBEL, Jacqueline cts.d'Entremont,
b.1541 Isere,Savoy; d.6 Jul 1600 Geneva,Huguenot
She was 30 years old at her marriage to Adm.Coligny.
The marriage was opposed by her family, so she ran away
to LaRochelle to be married.
--- ggParents
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------
12 COLIGNY, Gaspard sr.deFromente de [Jean 3 sr/COURCELLES,Eleonore]
b.1470? Chatillon surLoing,Fr.; d.4 Aug 1522 Dax,Bayonne,Fr.
He was Marshal de Chatillon sur Loing. His sons became
Huguenots around 1560 and were leaders in the movement.
m1.1 Dec 1514 Paris;
13 MONTMORENCY, Marie Louise de, b.1490? Paris; d.1541
She was sister of mareschal Anne deMontmorency.
14 MONTBEL, Sebastien ct.d'Entremont,
b.1520? Isere,Savoy; Catholic
m1.17 Sep 1539
15 ESCALONA, Beatriz Pacheco de, b.1520? Spain; d.27 Dec 1582
Her parentage is given as (only) the Duque de Escalona by
"Dictionaiire de la Noblesse...". It is an assumption that
she was the legitimate child of this duke and his last wife.
--- 2ggParents
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------
24 COLIGNY, Jean 3 sr.dem b.1440? Chatillon surLong; d.1480
m1. 1464
25 COURCELLES, Eleonore de, b.1445? France; d.1510?
26 MONTMORENCY, Guillaume brn.de, b.1455? Paris; d.24 May 1531
His grandson Adm.Gaspard deColigny was to lead the Huguenot
movement after 1569. Son, Duc Anne was a leader of the
anti-Huguenot forces. The family were staunch Catholics,
but supported a negotiated settlement with the Huguenots.
His grandson, Duc Henri deMontmorency(1534-1614), was a
leader of the negotiated settlement faction.
m1.17 Jul 1484
27 POT, Anne de Rochepot-Thore, b.1470?, d.24 Feb 1510
28 MONTBEL, Charles sr.d'Entremont, b.1460? Savoy; d.1537
m1.10 Jul 1499
29 CHIEL, Francoise de, b.1480?
30 ESCALONA, Diego-Lopes 2 Pacheco 2.duc de,
b.1460? Spain; d.6 Nov 1529
31 MELGAR-CASTILE, Juana Enriquez de, b.1480? Spain; d.26 Apr 1530
--- 3ggParents
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------
48 COLIGNY, Guillaume 2 sgr.Andelot-,
b.1400? Bresse; d.1464 Chatillon sur Long
m1.12 Jun 1437 Chatillon;
49 SALIGNY, Catherine de, b.1420? Chatillon, d.1449
50 COURCELLES, Pierre sr.de, b.1420?
51 MELUN-LABORDE, Pregente de, b.1420?
There are conflicting IDs of her parents, those shown
as her paternal g.parents might be her parents.
52 MONTMORENCY, Jean 2 brn.de, b.1402?; d.6 Jul 1477
m2. 1454 ?;
53 ORGEMONT, Marguerite d', b.1430?; d.30 Mar 1481
54 POT, Guy brn.Thore de, b.1420?
55 VILLIERS, Marie d'Isle-Adam de, b.1450?
56 MONTBEL, Guillaume sgr.d'Entremont de, b.1410?
57 CHAMBRE, Ainarde de la, b.1440?
58 CHIEL, Odon sr.deChanves-, b.1450?
59 MEXIMIEUX, Marguerite Marechal de, b.1460?
60 ESCALONA, Juan Fernandez Pacheco 1.duc de,
b.1418 Spain; d.4 Oct 1474, m2. 1442
61 PORTOCARRERO, Maria deMoguer, b.1430?; d.1470
62 MELGAR-CASTILE, Alfonso Enriquez 3 alm.de, b.1420?; d.1485
63 VELASCO, Maria de, b.1450?
--- 4ggParents
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------
96 COLIGNY, Jacmart sgr.d'Andelot de, b.1360? Bresse; d.1434
97 BAUME, Huguette dela, b.1360?
98 SALIGNY, Jean Lourdin sr.delaMotte-, b.1390?
99 CHATILLON-SUR-LONG, Jeanne Braque de, b.1400?
102 MELUN-LABORDE, Philippe sr.delaMotheSt.Flrntn,
b.1390?; d.1471 Rochemeaux.Poitou, m1.4 Oct 1413
103 NANTOUILLET, Jeanne de, b.1390?
104 MONTMORENCY, Jacques brn.de, b.1370?; d.1414
105 MELUN, Philippa de, b.1380?; d.1421
106 ORGEMONT, Pierre 3 ct.Chantilly d',
b.1390?; d.24 Oct 1415 Azincourt, m1. 1404
107 PAYNEL, Jacqueline deMoyon de, b.1390?
108 POT, Jacques sgr.Roche-Nolay, b.1399; d.1463
109 COURTIAMBLES, Marguerite de, b.1400?
110 VILLIERS, Jacques sgr.Isle-Adam, b.1400?; d.25 Apr 1473
111 MELLO, Jeanne deNesle de, b.1430?; d.6 Dec 1462
112 MONTBEL, Guigues s.d'Entremont de, b.1360? Savoy
113 SEYSSEL, Antoinette d'Aix de, b.1380? Aix; (father: Aymar?)
114 CHAMBRE, Urbain vct.Maurienne sgr.dela, b.1400?; d.1445?
115 CHALENCON, Marguerite dePolignac de, b.1400?
116 CHIEL, Antoine sr.Chanves Beaulieu de, b.1420?
117 GIGNY, Antoinette d'Arcomas de, b.1430?
118 MEXIMIEUX, Francois Marechal sgr.de, b.1440?
119 VISSAC, Jeanne de, b.1440?
120 VALENCIA, Alonso Tellez Giron sr.de, b.1400?
121 ESCALONA, Maria Pacheco d', b.1400?
122 PORTOCARRERO, Pedro 4 sr.Moguer, b.1400?
123 CASTILE, BeatrizEnriques deMendoza-, b.1400?
124 MEDINA-TRASTAMARA, Alonso Enriquez 2 adm.Castile,
b.1380? Castile; d.1429
125 MENDOZA, Juana Perez de, b.1370?; d.1431
126 VELASCO, Pedro Fernandes ct.deHaro de,
b.1420?; d.25 Feb 1470
127 MANRIQUE, Beatriz de Trevino, b.1420?
--- 5ggParents
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------
192 COLIGNY, Jean 2 sgr.d'Andelot de, b.1330? Bresse; d.1434
193 VERGY, Marie de, b.1340?
194 BAUME, Humbert 3 s.Fromente dela, b.1330? France; d.1391
195 LUYRIEUX, Catherine de, b.1340? Bugey
196 SALIGNY, Jean 1 Lourdin sgr.de, b.1350? Chatillon-surLoing
197 ST.JEAN, Catherine delaMotte-, b.1350
198 CHATILLON-SUR-LONG, Nicolas Braque sr.de, b.1370?
199 TREMBLAY, Jeanne du [], b.1370?
204 MELUN-LABORDE, Jean 3 sr.de, b.1360?
205 SAVOISY, Isabelle delaMotheSt.Florentin b.1370? Burgundy
206 NANTOUILLET, Regnaud sr.de, b.1370?
207 LANDES, Jeanne des [], b.1370?
208 MONTMORENCY, Charles brn.de, b.1325; d.11 Sep 1381
m2. 1365
209 VILLIERS, Perenelle d'Isle-Adam de [Adam 2,leBegue sr/MERY,Alexis],
b.1350? France; d.1415
210 MELUN-EPINOY, Hugh sr.d'Antoing [Jean 2 vct/ANTOING,Isabelle] b.1340?
France; d.
211 BEAUSSART, Beatrix deBeaumont [Robert/MAUVOISIN-ROSNY,Laure], b.1360?
France; d.1421
212 ORGEMONT, Amaury 1 ct.Chantilly d' [Pierre/VOISINES,Marguerite] b.1360?
France; d.11 Jul 1400
213 PAILLART, Marie deThorigny de [Jean/CAMPREMY,Marie], b.1360? France; d.
214 PAYNEL, Guillaume 6 brn.Hamby de [Guillaume/BERTRAND,Jeanne] b.1360?
France; d.
215 PAYNEL, Jeanne deMoyon de [Olivier/MEULLANT,Isabelle deMilly], b.1360?
France; d.
216 POT, Regnier sgr.Prugne [] b.1360? France; d.
217 ANGOUSELLE, Catherine d' [], b.1360? France; d.
218 COURTIAMBLES, Jacques sgr.Commarin de [] b.1360? France; d.
219 BLAISY, Jacquette de [], b.1360? France; d.
220 VILLIERS, Jean 2 s.Isle-Adam marechal-Fr [Pierre/CHATILLON,Jeanne]
b.1383? France; d.1437
221 VALLENGOUJART, Jeanne de [], b.1380? France; d.
222 MELLO, Guy 4 deNesle sgr. [Guy/COUCY,Marguerite] b.1390? France; d.1473
m1.2 Jul 1427
223 SALUZZO, Jeanne de [Thomas 3 mq./ROUCY,Marguerite], b.1410? Italy; d.
224 MONTBEL, Jean 1 sr.d'Entremont de [Guil.3 sr/VILLETTE,Catherine]
b.1330? Savoy; d.1360
225 VILLARS, Beatrix de [Jean/MONTAGU,Agnes], b.1340? France; d.
226 SEYSSEL, Aymar sgr.Aix de [missing gens.2] b.1340? Savoy; d.
227 POITIERS, Antoinette de [Amedee/SAVOY,Jeanne d'Acaia], b.1340? Savoy;
d.
228 CHAMBRE, Jean 3 sgr.dela [Jean 2 sgr/VILLARS,Beatrix] b.1370? Savoy;
d.1418
229 CHALON, Jeanne de [Jean 3 sr/BAUX,Marie], b.1386? France; d.
230 POLIGNAC-CHALENCON, Pierre, Armand 7 vct.de [Guillaume
sgr/POLIGNAC,Valpurge] b.1360? France; d.
m1. 1378
231 SALIGNY, Marguerite Lourdin de [Jean/ST.JEAN,Catherine], b.1370?
France; d.
232 CHIEL, Guillaume sr.Chanves de [] b.1390? France; d.
233 ARS, Antoinette d' [Guillaume], b.1390? France; d.
234 GIGNY, Humbert sr.d'Arcomas de [] b.1390? France; d.
235 LAVIEU, Allemande de [], b.1400? France; d.
236 MEXIMIEUX, Humbert Marechal sgr.de [Pierre/CORGENON,Alix deMeillonnas]
b.1410? France; d.
m1. 1417
237 MENTHON, Jeannette de [Henri sgr/ST.AMOUR,Marie], b.1420? France; d.
238 VISSAC, Antoine 1 sr.d'Arlenc [Etienne 3 sr/GOUT,Jeanne] b.1380?
France; d.
239 APCHON, Marguerite d' [Louis ct/ESTAING,Marguerite], b.1380? Auvergne;
d.
240 ACUNA, Martin Vasques,1 ct.Valenca [Vasco/ALBERGARIA,Brites Soares]
b.1380? Spain; d.
241 GIRON, Theresa Telles deSt.Roman [Alfonso/ALARCAN,Theresa], b.1380?
Portugal; d.
242 FERREIRA, Juan Fernandes Pacheco sgr.de [Diego/PEREIRA,Juana] b.1380?
Portugal; d.
243 MENEZES, Inez Gonzalez de [Gonzalo/MENEZES,Leonor Telles], b.1380?
Iberia; d.
244 PORTOCARRERO, Martin Fernan.4 sr.Moguer [Martin/SARMIENTO,Francisca]
b.1370? Spain; d.
245 VACA, Leonor Cabeca de [Otro/GUEVARA,Teresa], b.1380? Spain; d.
246 MEDINA-TRASTAMARA, Alonso Enriquez 2 adm.Castile*{124}
[Pedro/CASTRO,Isabel] b.1380? Castile; d.1429
247 MENDOZA, Juana Perez de*{125} [Pedro/AYALA,Aldonza], b.1370? Spain;
d.1431
248 CASTILE, Pedro ct.Trastamara de [Fadrique mestr/ANGULO,Leonor] b.1355?
Spain; d.2 May 1400
249 CASTRO, Isabel Palumba deLemos de [Alvar/LEON,Maria], b.1360? Spain
250 MENDOZA, Pedro Gonzales sr.Hita de [Gonzalo/OROZCO,Juana Ruiz] b.1350?
Spain; d.1385
251 AYALA, Aldonza de [Fernando Peres de/ESCALANTE,Elvira], b.1360? Spain
252 VELASCO, Juan 4 sr.Medina de [Pedro/CIRUELO,Maria Sarmento] b.1380?
Iberia; d.Oct 1418
253 SOLIER, Maria Vilhalpado de [Arnal/MENEZES,Marina Alfonso], b.1380?
Iberia
254 MANRIQUE-LARA, Pedro sr.Trevino [Diego/MENDOZA,Juana] b.1381? Iberia
255 CASTILE, Leonor de [Fadrique/ALBUQUERQUE,Leonor], b.1390? Castile
--- 6ggParents
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------
384 COLIGNY, Etienne 2 sgr.de [Jean 1 sgr/ROCHE-VANNEL,Jeanne dela] b.1310?
Bresse; d.1332
385 VILLARS, Eleonore de [Humbert/BEAUJEU-FOREZ,Eleonore], b.1310?
386 VERGY, Jean sgr.Fonvens-leBorgne [Henry/TRIE,Mahaud] b.1310?; d.1353
387 VIENNE, Gilles de [Guillaume/ANTIGNY,Huguette], b.1320?; d.1364
388 BAUME, Etienne sgr.Fromente dela [Jean/COLIGNY,Marguerite] b.1310?;
d.1360
m1.24 Jul 1329 Chateau-duPont, Ains;
389 BEAUREGARD, Huguette de [Vauchier sgr/CORVEISSIA,Jeanne du], b.1310?
Comte; d.1361?
392 SALIGNY, Hugues 4 duChateau de [Hugues] b.1310? Auvergne
396 CHATILLON-SUR-LONG, Arnoul 2 Braque sr.de [Amaury
de/MONTMORENCY,Guillemette] b.1320?
397 GENTIEN, Alix de [], b.1340?
408 MELUN-LABORDE, Jean 2,sgr.Courtery Blandy [Simon 1 sr/COURTERY,Marie]
b.1310?
409 GUARCHY, Isabeau de [], b.1330?
410 SAVOISY, Philippe sr.Seignelay Cerdare [Hemonin sr/,Conegan] b.1330?
Burgundy; d.27 Jul 1398
411 DUISY, Marie de [], b.1340? Burgundy
416 MONTMORENCY, Jean 1 sgr.de [Mathieu 4 sgr/LEVIS,Jeanne] b.1290?; d.Jun
1325
417 CALLETOT, Jeanne deBerneval [Robert], b.1290? Caux
418 VILLIERS, Adam 2,leBegue sr.de [Adam sgr/CRESSY,Alix] b.1330?
419 MERY, Alexis de [], b.1330?
420 MELUN, Jean 2 vct.de [Adam 4 vct/SULLY,Jeanne] b.1290?; d.1350
m2.30 Nov 1327
421 ANTOING, Isabelle d' [Huon/ENGHIEN,Marie], b.1310?; d.6 Dec 1354
422 BEAUSSART, Robert deBeaumont sgr.Wingles [] b.1340?
423 MAUVOISIN-ROSNY, Laure de [Guy 7 sgr/BAUMEZ,Roberte], b.1350? Normandy
424 ORGEMONT, Pierre 2 ct.Chantilly d' [Pierre] b.1330?; d.3 Jun 1389
425 VOISINES, Marguerite de [], b.1330?
426 CLERMONT, Jean 1,sgr.Paillart Tartigny [Raoul 2 sgr/COUCY,Isabelle]
b.1330?
427 CAMPREMY, Marie de [], b.1330?
428 PAYNEL, Guillaume 5 brn.Hamby [Foulques/CHANTELOUP,Agnes] b.1320?
Normandy
429 BERTRAND, Jeanne deBriquebec [Robert/SULLY,Marie], b.1320?
430 PAYNEL, Olivier 2 brn.Moyon,Hambre [Olivier brn.Moyon/MAILLY,Isabeau]
b.1320? Normandy
m1. 1350
431 MEULLANT, Isabelle deMilly [Valeran/BOUVILLE,Jeanne deMilly], b.1330?
Gatinais; d.7 Feb 1407
440 VILLIERS, Pierre 2 sgr.Isle-Adam de [Pierre/VENDOME,Marguerite]
b.1360?; d.1400
m1.21 May 1383
441 CHATILLON, Jeanne de [Charles/COUCY,Jeanne], b.1360?
444 NESLE, Guy 3 sgr.Offemont-Mello de [Jean/MAILLY,Ade d'Acheu] b.1370?;
d.25 Oct 1415 Azincourt,battle
m1.2 Aug 1389
445 COUCY, Marguerite de [Raoul/HARCOURT,Jeanne], b.1370?
446 SALUZZO, Thomas 3 mq. [Federico 2 mq/GENEVA,Beatrix] b.1370? Italy;
d.1416
447 ROUCY, Marguerite de [Hugues ct/COUCY,Blanche], b.1390?
448 MONTBEL, Guil.3 sr.d'Entremont de [Humbert
2/CLERMONT-TREVES,Marguerite] b.1300?, d.1356
449 VILLETTE, Catherine deChevron- [Sgr.Chevron-], b.1310? Savoy; d.1347?
450 VILLARS, Jean sr.duMontellier- [Humbert/BEAUJEU-FOREZ,Eleonore] b.1300?
451 MONTAGU, Agnes de [], b.1300?; d.
452 SEYSSEL, missing gens.2 d'Aix de [Guillaume] b.1290? Aix
454 POITIERS, Amedee sgr.St.Vallier de [Aymar/GENEVA,Marguerite] b.1300?;
d.1350?
m1.22 May 1330
455 SAVOY, Jeanne d'Acaia de [Philippe/VIENNOIS,Catherine], b.1315?
456 CHAMBRE, Jean 2 sgr.dela [Richard 2 sgr] b.1325? Savoy; d.1372?
457 VILLARS, Beatrix de [Humbert/BEAUJEU-FOREZ,Eleonore], b.1330? Savoy
458 CHALON, Jean 3 sr.d'Arlay de [Jean 2 sr/MELLO,Marguerite] b.1340?;
d.1418 Paris,plague
m1. 1386
459 BAUX, Marie pr.Orange des [Raymond/GENEVA,Jeanne], b.1360?; d.1417
460 CHALENCON, Guillaume sgr.de [Guiot sgr/AUVERGNE,Isabeau] b.1330?
m1. 1349
461 POLIGNAC, Valpurge cts.Randon- [Jean sgr/ROQUEFEUIL,Marguerite],
b.1330?
462 SALIGNY, Jean 1 Lourdin sgr.de*{196} [Hugues] b.1350?
Chatillon-surLoing
463 ST.JEAN, Catherine delaMotte-*{197} [], b.1350
466 ARS, Guillaume sr.Montelier d' [] b.1360?
472 MEXIMIEUX, Pierre Marechal sgr.de [Jean Marechal
sgr/MEXIMIEUX,Ancelise] b.1380?; d.1413
m1. 1385
473 CORGENON, Alix deMeillonnas [Jean/VILLENEUVE-EN-DO,Jeanne], b.1380?
474 MENTHON, Henri sgr.de [] b.1370?
475 ST.AMOUR, Marie de [Jean/CORGENON,Guigonne], b.1400?
476 VISSAC, Etienne 3 sr.d'Arlenc [Etienne/POITIERS,Alix] b.1330? France;
d.1386
477 GOUT, Jeanne Gabrielle de [Gaspard sr], b.1340? France; d.
478 APCHON, Louis ct.d' [Guillaume 6 ct/BROSSE,Marguerite] b.1350?
Auvergne; d.
479 ESTAING, Marguerite d' [Raymond 2/CASTELNAU,Barane], b.1350?
480 ACUNA, Vasco Martins sr.Pinheiro [Martin/PACHECO,Violante Lopes]
b.1360? Portugal
481 ALBERGARIA, Brites Soares de [Estevao Soares sr/SOALHAENS,Maria
Laurenca], b.1360? Iberia
482 ST.ROMAN, Alfonso TelesGiron sr. [Joao/GALLINA,Urraca] b.1360? Portugal
483 ALARCAN, Theresa Rodrigues de [Fernao/PECHA,Brites Fernandes], b.1360?
Portugal
484 FERREIRA-AVES, Diego Lopez Pacheco sn.de [Lopo/TAVERA,Maria dit Teresa]
b.1340? Portugal
485 PEREIRA, Juana [Vasco/ACUNA,Ines Lorenco], b.1350? Portugal
486 MENEZES, Gonzalo Telles ct.Neira,Faria [Martin/VASCONCELLOS,Aldonca]
b.1350? Spain
487 MENEZES, Leonor Telles de [], b.1360? Spain
488 PORTOCARRERO, Martin Fernan.3 sr.Moguer [Martin/TENORIO,Maria Jufre]
b.1340? Spain
489 SARMIENTO, Francisca de [], b.1350? Spain
490 VACA, Otro Pedro msr.Santiago Cabeca [] b.1350? Iberia
491 GUEVARA, Teresa de [], b.1360? Spain; d.
492 CASTILE, Pedro ct.Trastamara de*{248} [Fadrique mestr/ANGULO,Leonor]
b.1355? Spain; d.2 May 1400
493 CASTRO, Isabel Palumba deLemos de*{249} [Alvar/LEON,Maria], b.1360?
Spain
494 MENDOZA, Pedro Gonzales sr.Hita de*{250} [Gonzalo/OROZCO,Juana Ruiz]
b.1350? Spain; d.1385
495 AYALA, Aldonza de*{251} [Fernando Peres de/ESCALANTE,Elvira], b.1360?
Spain
496 CASTILE, Fadrique mestr.deSantiago [Alfonso 11/GUZMAN,Leonor Nunes]
b.1330? Spain; d.29 May 1358
497 ANGULO, Leonor Constanza de [Lope Alfonso de/CARRILLO,Juana Garcia],
b.1330? Spain
498 CASTRO, Alvar Perez deLemos- [Pedro/VALLADARES,Aldonsa Suarez] b.1330?
Spain
499 LEON, Maria Perez dePonce de [Pedro dePonce de/ARAGON,Beatriz], b.1330?
Spain
500 MENDOZA, Gonzalo Hurtado sgr.de [Diego Hurtado sr/ROJAS,Maria] b.1320?
Spain
501 OROZCO, Juana Ruiz de [Ruy Lopes sr/VALDES,Maria], b.1320? Spain
502 AYALA, Fernando Peres de [Pedro Lopez de/BARROSA,Sancha] b.1330? Spain
503 ESCALANTE, Elvira deCevallos de [Diego/CARRILLO,Juana Garcia], b.1330?
Spain
504 VELASCO, Pedro Fernandes sr.Medina de [] b.1360? Iberia; d.1384
505 CIRUELO, Maria Sarmento de [], b.1360? Iberia
506 SOLIER, Arnal sgr.Vilhalpado de [] b.1360? Iberia
507 MENEZES, Marina Alfonso de [Martin/VASCONCELLOS,Aldonca], b.1360?
Iberia
508 MANRIQUE-LARA, Diego Gomez 7 sr.Trevino [Garci/TOLEDO,Teresa Vazquez]
b.1360? Iberia
509 MENDOZA, Juana de [Pedro/AYALA,Aldonza], b.1375? Spain; d.1431
510 CASTILE, Fadrique duc deBenavente [Enrique/MANUEL,Juana] b.1350?
Castile; d.1394
511 ALBUQUERQUE, Leonor d' [Sancho duque/PORTUGAL,Brites], b.1374 Spain;
d.Dec 1435
--- 7ggParents
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------
768 COLIGNY, Jean 1 sgr.de [Etienne 1 sgr/FORCALQUIER,Isabelle] b.1274
Bresse; d.1374
m1. 1298
769 ROCHE-VANNEL, Jeanne dela [Milon dela/,Marguerite], b.1280? Bresse; d.
770 VILLARS, Humbert 5 sgr.Thoire de [Humbert/TOUR DU PIN,Marguerite dela]
b.1270? France; d.
m1. 1295
771 BEAUJEU-FOREZ, Eleonore de [Louis 1 sgr/SAVOY,Eleonore], b.1280?
France; d.
Part 2 to follow. See legend at end of part 2.
Best wishes,
Mike Talbot
William Addams Reitwiesner
I'm afraid the verification is going to be negative. There's a genealogy
of the Colignys in *Europaeische Stammtafeln*, ed. Schwennicke, Band XIV
[1991], Taf. 60-64. Gaspard II, Admiral of France, appears on Tafel 61.
He married twice, his first wife (marriage contract dated at Fontainebleau
on 15 October 1547) was Charlotte de Laval (d. 1568), by whom he had eight
children. His second wife (married at La Rochelle 25 March 1571) was
Jacqueline de Montbel (born at Paris in 1541, imprisoned in 1573 and died,
still in captivity, at the Castello d'Ivrea in December 1599). Jacqueline
was the widow of Claude de Batarnay, Count du Bouchage.
After Gaspard was killed in the St Bartholomew's night massacre (24 August
1572), Jacqueline gave birth to their only child, Beatrix de Coligny, at
Saint-Andre-de Briord on 21 December 1572. Beatrix married at Turin on 30
November 1600 (contract dated 17 July 1600) Claude Antoine d'Albon, Baron
de Mevouillon et de Montauban, who died 26 February 1618.
Claude Antoine, son-in-law of the Admiral of France, wasn't named "Mius DE
MEULLON". What's your source that says he was?
William Addams Reitwiesner
wr...@erols.com
"Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc."
KADICA
Karen
ms.p.j....@gmail.com
> He must have an awfully high opinion of me!!!
> Acadienne et fiere, Chris (ct9...@gte.net)
> Muskegon, Michigan
Beatrice de Coligny d'Entremont is the daughter of Gaspard II's second wife Jacqueline Montbel d'Entremont. It was stipulated by Jacqueline's either father or grandfather Simon that since there were no male heirs left, any issues of Jacqueline would hence carry the name d'Entremont. Jacqueline was was separated from Beatrice at birth since she is ofthe House of Savoy which is Catholic. She converted to Protestantism through Gaspard II, who headed the Huguenot cause in France (thus his beheading as noted in death above.) Jacqueline was unable to get out of France due to her pregnancy, but Gaspard's daughter with assistance was able to travel into Switzerland along with other children under the care of Jacqueline, who became a prisoner for her crimes against the Church for the remainder of her life. Beatrice, as she grew up (raised in a convent by nuns) from time to time was able to see her mother.
Also look up the de Laval family. It, along with the Montmorency family are two of the major very wealthy, powerful and noble houses from that period in French history and before. Louise Montmorency was Gaspard II's mother. Check out, e.g. Guy de Laval and Bouchard Montmorency (#I-V)for a wider historical scope. One of the Bouchard guys mother was the daughter of William the Conqueror and a Plantagenet Princess. They go back to Charlemagne. For a fun treat, search Chateau Chamerolles outside Orleans and you will find a distant cousin, Lancelot du Lac II (Gaspard II's cousin and fellow Huguenot.) You can tour the chateau -- it is Renaissance, moated and complete with former drawbridge (now stone). Exquisite formal gardens too. The Montmorency's built the Chateau Chantilly north of Paris. Read up on Gaspard II. His headless bones were found centuries later buried into the walls of his family's former chateau during renovations. One of Gaspard's sons by first wife -- believe he wss called Andelot--check. He owned a chateau that was private for years and a couple purchased it and turned it into a chateau hotel you can stay in. No more hints. Andelot is mentioned in the hotel synopsis so that name may show up in a google search. The search and find is the fun part! Good luck.
whoops! I should add that the du Tillet's are also a major player for several centuries in France legal history. One was Bailif of the Bastile. Another advisor to Kings. They wrote volumes of works that aided defining written laws of France. Once you "cross the pond" follow footsteps to Jean II Du Tillet Baron de Nogent. He had good connections.
Au revoir!
Denis Beauregard
wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
>On Thursday, January 14, 1999 3:00:00 AM UTC-5, Chris Thomas wrote:
>> Would appreciate any help on the two lines below. They are my bridge across
>> the "big pond" and I'm looking for as much verification as I can find.
>> Gaspard de Coligny was a leader of the Protestant movement and was killed
>> during the St Bartholemew's Day Massacre. His father was Admiral of France
>> and married a Charlotte de Laval who died in 1568. Any help would be
>> greatly appreciated.
>>
>> Chris Thomas
>> ct9...@gte.net
>>
>> Descendants of Nicolas Mousche Musse
>>
>> 1 Nicolas MUIS b: 1540 in Gryon, Switzerland d: August 25, 1572 in
>> Paris, France
>> . +Jeanne DE MEULLON b: 1545 m: June 05, 1569 d: Unknown Father: Mother:
>> 2 Claude Antoine Mius DE MEULLON b: 1570 in Normandy, France d: Unknown
>> in Savoy, France
>> .. +Beatrice DE COLIGNY b: 1572 in Savoy, France m: June 17, 1600 in Savoy,
>> France d: Unknown in Savoy, France Father: Admiral of France, Gaspard II de
>> Coligny Mother: Jacqueline De Montbel
>> 3 Philippe Mius D'ENTREMONT b: November 14, 1601 in Cherbourg, Normandy
>> FR d: 1700 in Pobomcoup, Acadia
>> .. +Madeleine HELIE DU TILLET b: 1626 in Cherbourg, Normandy, France m:
>> 1640 in Calvados France (possibly as late as 1649) d: 1679 in Pobomcoup,
>> Acadia Father: Jacques Helie Du Tillet Mother: Francoise Faucon
parents for Philippe Mius or Madeleine Helie. It is useless to add
parents to fictive parents...
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
French in North America before 1722 - www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
Sur cédérom à 1785 - On CD-ROM to 1785
jlavi...@gmail.com
Ils ont également trouvé la dame Madeleine Helie du Tillet avec un inventaire de bibliothèque longtemps après que Philippe Mius et son épouse du même nom se soient installés en Acadie.
Merci pour tout votre travail de généalogie Denis...
Denis Beauregard
écrivait dans soc.genealogy.medieval:
une famille alors qu'on ne connaît ni le nom des parents, ni le lieu
d'origine de la personne en question.
On a la signature ADNy des Mius, ceci à partir de descendants de ses
fils Jacques et Abraham. Il faudrait qu'un descendant en ligne
masculine de la famille française présumée soit aussi testé et qu'on
compare les résultats.
Je pense qu'on devrait oublier complètement cette fausse piste. Je
veux bien qu'on trouve une Madeleine Hélie en France, mais quelle
preuve qu'elle est la mère de Philippe ou l'épouse d'un Mius ?
Je chercherais plutôt du côté de Dieppe et parmi les gens ordinaires.
Il faudrait tester un Dieppois avec un nom ressemblant vaguement à
Mius ou Miousse.
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
Owen Caddell
Coligny, Jeanne de Meuillon, and Nicolas Muss were all slaughtered for their Protestant faith at or around the events of the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre. This left Claude Antoine, Baron de Meuillon an orphan as a toddler. He was then adopted by Jacquelin d'Entremonts. The reasons for this adoption are twofold - Jacquelin felt guilty over the fact that Claude's father Nicolas had died protecting her late husband Coligny. Jacquelin also had no male heirs for the d'Entremont line as her family had failed to produce any. She thus struck some sort of agreement that her now adopted son, Claude Antoine, which declared that any children he had would carry on the d'Entremont name. Claude proceeded to marry Jacquelin's genetic daughter Beatrix, confirmed by W.A. Whitehead. This is why Philippe, one of their sons, carries both the Mius and the d'Entremont name.
As far as why the name went from Muss to Mius, this likely has a lot to do with Protestant / Catholic tension. Nicolas Muss was a German translator of Swiss origins. If you were to write the names "Muss" and "Mius" on a chalkboard and ask which looks like the French writing and which looks like the German writing of the pronunciation of the modern "Muise" it's rather obvious that "Muss" is German. This is significant because Germany was a Protestant nation during this time, the early 17th century. To spell your name "Mius" implied you were a Frenchman, a Catholic. What more motivation to change your name do you need than your grandparents being murdered for their faith?
Arthur Whiston Whitehead, Gaspard de Coligny: Admiral of France. (London: Methuen & Co, 1892).
pj.ev...@gmail.com
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
Denis Beauregard
<owen...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
>On Monday, 25 April 2022 at 16:36:49 UTC-7, pj.ev...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Monday, April 25, 2022 at 3:14:43 AM UTC-7, Owen Caddell wrote:
>> > As far as why the name went from Muss to Mius, this likely has a lot to do with Protestant / Catholic tension. Nicolas Muss was a German translator of Swiss origins. If you were to write the names "Muss" and "Mius" on a chalkboard and ask which looks like the French writing and which looks like the German writing of the
pronunciation of the modern "Muise" it's rather obvious that "Muss" is German. This is significant because Germany was a Protestant nation during this time, the early 17th century. To spell your name "Mius" implied you were a Frenchman, a Catholic. What more motivation to change your name do you need than your grandparents being
murdered for their faith?
French link.
Muise is not a "modern" pronunciation but adaptation to English.
Muir is a common English name and its sounds like m-ee-your, so
similar to muise sounding like m-ee-youz, not far from French
m-ee-ouss.
http://www.geopatronyme.com/
49 occurences in France, 44 in Seine-Maritime, which is Normandy.
It can be from descendants of Acadians more than cousins of Acadians.
https://gbkcouples.geneabank.org/nom/?name=mius&place=&start=&end=
First occurence in this database in Puy de Dôme, which is more South
of France.
5 for a mother, Gaspard BUNEL m Marie MIUS before 1675 (3) and
2 where the godmother is Marie Mius.
Also, a lot of Miousse or Musse. But there is no evidence the
Mius could be Musse.
pj.ev...@gmail.com
Congratulations for proving that you aren't interested in expert opinion. Or evidence.
jason bateman
jason bateman
Denis Beauregard
<jasonba...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
>I am wondering if anyone has any thoughts about when the Mius d'Entremont family would have converted from being Huguenots to Catholics.
(Huguenots are protestants who left France, so you can't convert
from huguenot and remain in France while you can convert between
catholic and protestant).
>My assumption that Philippe was Huguenot is based on the fact that his (as most believe) grandfather Nicolas was the German translator for a very powerful Protestant Admiral Coligny.
>I also believe Philippe may have left France in the first place due to Catholic pressure. That Philippe was a good friend of Charles de La Tour is another indication of his being a member of the Religion. At the very least Charles' father Claude was a Protestant whom sided with Scottish in the New World.
decided to stay in Acadia, perhaps living with Natives.
>My belief that the present d'Entremonts are Catholic stems from the fact that the famed honourable historian goes by "Father" Clarence d'Entremont and to my knowledge to call oneself "Father" is rather Catholic. Said d'Entremont, along with the lovely Bernice who runs the Pubnico museum, seem very uninterested in discussing
pre-settlement Mius d'Entremont history nor
>the possibility that Philippe is actually a descendant of Admiral Coligny.
families.
>I understand that Philippe's youngest son Philippe ll married and lived amongst the Mi'kmaq, this family birthing many important Mi'kmaq chiefs over the proceeding centuries bearing the surname "Muise." I also understand that the Mi'kmaq are mostly a Roman Catholic people since European invasion. My question is, when did the
conversion of Mius d'Entremonts from Huguenot to Catholic occur and under what pressures? Thanks guys.
Please use facts to argue.
Denis Beauregard
<jasonba...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
a French candidate to compare, this question will be answered...
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Mius-dEntremont?iframe=ycolorized
Denis
P.S. I don't know who is that Mius from Normandy. I took over the
Mius project because it was orphan.
jason bateman
I am wondering if you have read Fortune and La Tour by Marjorie Macdonald? She goes over in detail Claude's Protestant leanings and Charles' relationship with Protestant New English, who tolerated him and fought alongside him against the Catholic d'Aulnay, tolerating La Tour due to his Protestant leanings. As well, Charles' second daughter Antoinette who had the beautiful singing voice was enlisted into a Protestant Convent by Charles upon her arrival in France. I would like to see any proof you have that Charles was Catholic? As far as Claude's life in Acadia, it is actually well-documented that he lived in a small yet comfortable shack alongside Charles outside of his fort after his humiliating defeat. What exactly is not proven? That he sided with Scottish? That is surely proven if you read any documentation. Again, siding with Protestant Scots is something a Catholic would likely not do. The reason Charles didn't give up his fort and join the Scottish was his loyalty to the French language, not due to his allegiance to Catholicism.
I am wondering if you are aware that Jacquelin d'Entremonts is the second wife of Admiral Coligny? Do you suppose this is, in fact, not someone that the d'Entremonts of Acadia have any genealogical association with?
Thanks Denis
Denis Beauregard
<jasonba...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
no databases for commoners so that people focussed on the only things
they can found, nobility. But there are now databases. So in Normandy,
there is:
Pierre Mius, born 1667, from
Sassetot-le-Mauconduit, 76663, Seine-Maritime
Saint-Martin-aux-Buneaux, 76, Seine Maritime
https://gw.geneanet.org/blackfoot27?lang=en&pz=raymond+rene&nz=krausse&p=pierre&n=mius&oc=1
https://gw.geneanet.org/polo541?lang=en&pz=clement+philibert&nz=fayolle&p=guillaume&n=mius
Charles Mius born 1663 (father is Letellier, typo ?)
Saint-Martin-aux-Buneaux, 76, Seine Maritime
https://gw.geneanet.org/francoise39?lang=fr&iz=0&p=charles&n=mius&oc=1
These towns are not indexed in Geneabank but some are on Geneanet.
Saint-Martin-aux-Buneaux
5 Mius born in 1600-1650 but many gaps.
Sassetot-le-Mauconduit
The geneanet extract is from 1793 only
So, before looking for some prestigious ancestor, you should focus
on records available. There are many different Mius families in
Normandy when Philippe was born.
Denis
Owen Caddell
Why do you suppose Philippe would have been given the title of Lieutenant Governor of Acadie and given such a large strip of land (Pobomcoup), if he was not some sort of prestigious person?
Thanks Denis
Denis Beauregard
<owen...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
>Hello Denis
>
>Why do you suppose Philippe would have been given the title of Lieutenant Governor of Acadie and given such a large strip of land (Pobomcoup), if he was not some sort of prestigious person?
early documents were not destroyed, so why not ?
For example, Champlain, Louis Hebert (first colonist with a family),
Pierre Boucher de Boucherville, etc.
My own ancestor, Jarret de Beauregard, has a "fief" which is a noble
land, without any nobility while his half-brother, Jarret de Verchères
and his uncle Pecaudy de Contrecoeur have traces in France but no
proven nobility either. There are seigneuries de Verchèrs and de
Contrecoeur. Their "noble" ancestor was only a sergeant.
That said, if the Mius I found are close cousins, then it should be
possible to find lands in old French maps with names like Azy or
Pobomcoup or Entremont.
Owen Caddell
Denis Beauregard
<owen...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
forget about the obvious. There are Mius in Normandy in France so
Philippe Mius d'Entremont is a Mius from Normandy (confirmed by
Y DNA) and not related to some Musse family.
Pierrette Dentremont
> On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 10:33:27 -0700 (PDT), Owen Caddell
After reading, I think that Denis is mostly correct (not sure what the "lands in old French maps with names like Azy or
Pobomcoup or Entremont" is though. Pobomcoup/Pogomkook/Pomcoup/Pubnico is of Mi'kmaq root.).
If we could find some European descendants of the old Mius line, that would be great. Before, hopping to the nobility link which seems to more of a stretch, if not a dead end. A previous post referred to a Smith, but the idea came about through the research of H. Léander d'Entremont (the uncle of F. Clarence d'Entremont). However, François Virginie Bon, comte d'Entremont et de Montbel (1601 - 1671) seems to have been the actual son of Claude-Antoine d'Albon/Bon/de Meuillon and Béatrice de Coligny.
From quite a phew d'Entremont relatives (direct to Philippe Mius d'Entremont) Y-DNA haplogroup is 'E1b1b1'. Finding more in Europe to match would be needed. I think one match was found, a Mius, with a link tracing pre-deportation to Haute-Normandie. More mtDNA would be needed I think (not quite current on this).
I hope that helps clear up some confusion, though I doubt it will change the wiki and hundreds or other pages ;)
Pierrette d'Entremont
Denis Beauregard
<pier...@sentiolife.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
>On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 6:58:55 PM UTC-3, Denis Beauregard wrote:
>> Not only you don't cite the article to which you answer, but you
>> forget about the obvious. There are Mius in Normandy in France so
>> Philippe Mius d'Entremont is a Mius from Normandy (confirmed by
>> Y DNA) and not related to some Musse family.
François Virginie Bon, comte d'Entremont et de Montbel (1601 - 1671) seems to have been the actual son of Claude-Antoine d'Albon/Bon/de Meuillon and Béatrice de Coligny.
MIUS FROM NORMANDY who is matching the Y DNA.
>From quite a phew d'Entremont relatives (direct to Philippe Mius d'Entremont) Y-DNA haplogroup is 'E1b1b1'. Finding more in Europe to match would be needed. I think one match was found, a Mius, with a link tracing pre-deportation to Haute-Normandie. More mtDNA would be needed I think (not quite current on this).
for Madeleine Helie. But a female lineage is harder to find as the
name is changed for each generation.
Peter de Loriol Chandieu
La qualité d’écuyer et le titre de sieur d’Entremont figurent dans les lettres de concession de Pobomcoup (aujourd'hui Pubnico en Nouvelle Écosse) ainsi que sur l’Abrégé du rôle des familles de l’Acadie fait par le sieur Randin, envoyé de Monseigneur Colbert, de Québec, le 8 novembre 1671.
François Edmé Rameau de Saint-Père, Une colonie féodale en Amérique, l'Acadie, 1604-1881, vol. 2, p. 412, cite les lettres du 17 juillet 1653 par lesquelles le gouverneur d’Acadie Charles de Saint-Etienne, seigneur de La Tour accorda le fief Pobomcoup à Philippe Mius d’Entremont « Fut présent et comparu personnellement Haut et puissant seigneur, Charles de Saint-Etienne, seigneur de La Tour, chevallier des ordres du Roy, et son lieutenant-général dans toute l'intendue des terres, illes et côtes de l'Acadie, pays de Nouvelle France, et propriétaire du lieux dit Vieux Logis, autrement Pipegueniche, suivant et conformément à la concession qu'il en a eu, daté du quinsième janvier mil six cent trente six : [...] le reçu [...] et volontairement a reconnue et confessé avoir par ces présents, baillé et délaissé à perpétuité à titre de baronnage et fief noble, ayant justice haute, moyenne et basse relevant directement du dit lieu nommé le Vieux Logis, la dite côte d'Acadie, comme fief dominant : A noble homme Philippe Mieus, écuyer, sieur d'Entremont, et damoiselle Magdeleine, sa femme, et noble homme Pierre Ferrand et damoiselle Mathurine Sicard, sa femme, à ce présent et acceptant pour eux, leurs hoirs et ayant cause ; en vertu du pouvoir à nous donné par Sa Majesté et au désire de ses lettres patants, en datte du vingt cinq février mil six cent cinquante, et, comme aussi en considération du mérite particulier des dits sieurs d'Entremont et Ferrand et des bons et fidèles services qu'ils nous ont personnellement randus.
Avoir donné et octroyé, donnons et octroyons par ses présents aux dits sieurs d’Entremont et Ferrant et à leurs ditte femmes, par égale participation, l'étendue d'une lieux de large sur quatre de profondeur, au lieu dit Pombkoup, pour en jouir par les dits impétriens, leurs successeurs et ayant cause, en toutes propriété, justice et seigneurie à perpétuité, aux dits titres de baronnage, fief noble, relevant du dite lieu, le Vieux Logis, moyannant et à la charge du à l'hommage, et d'un quchipohy de castor, avec deux bouquets, aux jours et fêtes de saint Jean-Baptiste, pour chacun an et au coutume de la prévauté et vicomté de Paris.
Jouirons aussi les dits sieurs d'Entremont et Ferrant, leurs hoirs, successeurs et ayant droit et cause à perpétuité des chasses, à condition d'habiter et faire valoire les dites lieux à eux accordés, et ce faissant le dite seigneur de La Tour es dits noms a jourdy saisy et mis en possession les dits sieurs d'Entremont et Ferrant et leurs dites femmes, des dites terres, fief et baronnage de Pombkoup, promettant et obligeant chacun au droit soy renoncent. Fait passé au fort du Port Royal le 17e jour de juillet 1653, en présence de témoins cy après ; ont signé : Charles de Saint-Etienne, Emmanuel Le Borgne [ sera à son tour gouverneur d’Acadie entre 1657 et 1667], De Saint-Mas, Philippe Mieus d'Entremont, Pierre Ferrant, Magdeleine Helis, Mathurine Sicard, La Verdure ».
I descend from the Montbel d'Entremont as well as the de Coligny, if it is of any interest. My family was Bressane.
I was of the same opinion as the late Addams Reitweisner on the Mius connection to the dynasties of the Montbel and Coligny. His family was from Normandy, not form the Eastern part of France. the original grantor was also 'sieur' d'Entremonts which may refer to a piece of land in Acadie, not the 8000 odd hectares of Land of the baronie d'Entremont in Bresse.
Peter
Denis Beauregard
<peterdelor...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
>I descend from the Montbel d'Entremont as well as the de Coligny, if it is of any interest. My family was Bressane.
>I was of the same opinion as the late Addams Reitweisner on the Mius connection to the dynasties of the Montbel and Coligny. His family was from Normandy, not form the Eastern part of France. the original grantor was also 'sieur' d'Entremonts which may refer to a piece of land in Acadie, not the 8000 odd hectares of Land of the
baronie d'Entremont in Bresse.
"d'Entremont" title. And Y DNA is linking the Mius to a French
family (while I am still trying to find some French record about
the French cousins).
Owen Caddell
Denis Beauregard
<owen...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
Insulting is your only response when you have definitely no answer.
Plonk.
Peter de Loriol Chandieu
Denis is an acknowledge expert on Canadian genealogy. He has, moreover, been proved right 99% of the time, if not 100%. Some many years ago in the heyday of Soc Gen medieval he was a linch-pin of the group and remains so. It bodes ill of anyone who cannot prove without , at the very least, secondary sources backed by primary sources.
Will Johnson
A typical farm house inventory
JPD
As for Mius d’Entremont being a noble, other than the letters patent for the Pobomcoup fief, what other documents refer to him as an écuyer? As you probably know, écuyer (squire) is a good clue that someone might be a noble, but its appearance once or just a few times in documents is not sufficient evidence. You must look for a pattern. Is the person consistently called écuyer over time? Are his parents given this title? What about his children? Some people tried to pass themselves off as noble by assuming the title of écuyer. This was a big enough problem in New France that the Sovereign Council demanding nobles living in the colony to register proofs of their noble status. There were charlatans running about the colony like Cadillac pretending to be noble. With an education and good manners, one could pass for a noble.
La Tour may have granted Mius d’Entremont the barony believing he was a noble without demanding evidence to that fact. Also, this might come as a surprise to some, but even during the Wars of Religion in France you had some Catholics cooperating with Protestants. Whether or not Mius d'Entremont was a Protestant cannot be determined by his cooperating with La Tour. And it was also not unknown in New France for well off people to marry into the nobility.
Coligny is an important family; I would suspect there are papers regarding this family in the Cabinet des titres. Has anyone bothered to check these papers to see if they mention a Mius d’Entremont? Likewise, has anyone checked for Mius d’Entremont in the Cabinet des titres? Many of the dossiers in the Cabinet de titres have now been digitized and can be examined at Gallica.fr. But keep in mind that even in these records you will find people trying to pass as nobles.
Given the lack of evidence for this hypothesis and the fact that Denis Beauregard mentioned that there is a Mius family from Normandy whose Y DNA matches Acadian Mius d’Entremont samples, I would think the better approach would be to narrow research on Normandy and try to find the link between these Y DNA matches. Rather than trying to fit Philippe Mius d’Entremont into a famous noble family without sufficient evidence, it might be more productive to actually do research to locate original documents in France regarding him and his family.
Let me close by saying that insulting M. Beauregard, an eminent genealogist, does not strengthen an argument but does relay a lot about a person’s character.
Owen Caddell
Denis Beauregard
<owen...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
>YOURE DEFENDING A PERSON WHO THOUGHT POBOMCOUP WAS A REGION IN FRANCE LMAOOOOOO
>That said, if the Mius I found are close cousins, then it should be
>Pobomcoup or Entremont.
Finding places in France with a similar name may help to find unknown
origins. I was not saying that Pobomcoup is in France.
Peter de Loriol Chandieu
Whether in Canada or France, rich individuals could buy 'noble seigneuries', but it did not make their owners noble if they were not. There is a family in the UK called de Salle de Terrieres, whose name was never that in the 18th or 17th century, it was Favre, but they came from an area of that name in the Languedoc. The family had a huge domain created for it in Canada, but could never prove nobility in France, doing the next best thing as lettered and astute businessmen in Canada. they are now represented in the UK with a large domain in Scotland.
As Denis says, astute new men could create a new persona in a new environment, and these did!
Hans Vogels
> This is how it went. I was recently reading a book about Gaspard de Coligny written by A.W. Whitehead (citation at bottom.) This book contains a chart confirming that Gaspard ll de Coligny and Jacquelin d'Entremonts, sole heiress of the d'Entremont line, had a daughter Beatrice in 1572 (born after Coligny's death) who married Claude, Baron de Meuillon. This Claude Antoine, Baron de Meuillon, was the son of Nicolas Muss and his wife, Jeanne de Meuillon.
>
> Coligny, Jeanne de Meuillon, and Nicolas Muss were all slaughtered for their Protestant faith at or around the events of the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre. This left Claude Antoine, Baron de Meuillon an orphan as a toddler. He was then adopted by Jacquelin d'Entremonts. The reasons for this adoption are twofold - Jacquelin felt guilty over the fact that Claude's father Nicolas had died protecting her late husband Coligny. Jacquelin also had no male heirs for the d'Entremont line as her family had failed to produce any. She thus struck some sort of agreement that her now adopted son, Claude Antoine, which declared that any children he had would carry on the d'Entremont name. Claude proceeded to marry Jacquelin's genetic daughter Beatrix, confirmed by W.A. Whitehead. This is why Philippe, one of their sons, carries both the Mius and the d'Entremont name.
> As far as why the name went from Muss to Mius, this likely has a lot to do with Protestant / Catholic tension. Nicolas Muss was a German translator of Swiss origins. If you were to write the names "Muss" and "Mius" on a chalkboard and ask which looks like the French writing and which looks like the German writing of the pronunciation of the modern "Muise" it's rather obvious that "Muss" is German. This is significant because Germany was a Protestant nation during this time, the early 17th century. To spell your name "Mius" implied you were a Frenchman, a Catholic. What more motivation to change your name do you need than your grandparents being murdered for their faith?
>
>> This is significant because Germany was a Protestant nation during this time, the early 17th century. <<
You are misinformed on this issue.
Hans Vogels
from The Netherlands
Hans Vogels
Hans Vogels
Darrell E. Larocque
The name actually looks like a French version of a Native word, to be honest.
Darrell
Denis Beauregard
<frenchconn...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
>On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 12:28:00?PM UTC-4, Denis Beauregard wrote:
>> >That said, if the Mius I found are close cousins, then it should be
>> >possible to find lands in old French maps with names like Azy or
>> >Pobomcoup or Entremont.
>>
>> Finding places in France with a similar name may help to find unknown
>> origins. I was not saying that Pobomcoup is in France.
>
>
>The name actually looks like a French version of a Native word, to be honest.
more French than Native.
My ancester was André Jarret sieur de Beauregard and there is a place
named Beauregard in the town where he was born in 1642. For his
half-brother François Jarret de Verchères, there are many small places
named Verchères but none close enough to be sure it is the right
place.
For many dit names, descendants found a small place of that name in
France. So once the place of origin of the Mius is found, then it may
be possible that some small place Azy or Entremont could be found.
That said, I found a Charles Theroude married to Marie Mius from
Avremesnil (76) and a Mellon Delamotte married to Jeanne Mius from
Rouen (76), both living around 1750.
Darrell E. Larocque
I was only talking about Pobomcoup of course! Sorry I confused you.
André Jarret, sieur de Beauregard, and my direct paternal ancestor, Philibert Couillaud dit Rocbrune, served together in the Contrecoeur company of the Carignan-Salières Regiment and were true friends. Alas, any record of my ancestor in France does not exist, but DNA shows him to be of Border Scots ancestry, so he is probably a Coqueborne, a descendant of of the Gardes Écossaises, but we just don't know. I know André Jarret name well though! We are tied through brothers in arms.
Darrell
Denis Beauregard
<frenchconn...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
>I was only talking about Pobomcoup of course! Sorry I confused you.
word was not. For example, Quebec is sometimes presumed to be a
cousin of places like Bricquebec in France !
When I made my last travel to France in 2018, I remember I saw
something sounding like a Mius domain. I took no note so I just
don't remember what I saw, perhaps in Dieppe or Rouen. I verified
the photos I have but no hint. I thought I could find it easily
when back home, but this didn't happen !
>André Jarret, sieur de Beauregard, and my direct paternal ancestor, Philibert Couillaud dit Rocbrune, served together in the Contrecoeur company of the Carignan-Salières Regiment and were true friends. Alas, any record of my ancestor in France does not exist, but DNA shows him to be of Border Scots ancestry, so he is probably a
Coqueborne, a descendant of of the Gardes Écossaises, but we just don't know. I know André Jarret name well though! We are tied through brothers in arms.
Larocque made a Big Y, with some English deep match. The common
ancestor would be 1400 years ago.
But I see no name and I don't see you as a match. Were you tested
with something like Dante or FGC or Nebula and then on Yfull ? Or
with 23andme, which is less accutare ?
Darrell E. Larocque
> I understood that. But in some cases, it was found that a "Native"
> word was not. For example, Quebec is sometimes presumed to be a
> cousin of places like Bricquebec in France !
> When I made my last travel to France in 2018, I remember I saw
> something sounding like a Mius domain. I took no note so I just
> don't remember what I saw, perhaps in Dieppe or Rouen. I verified
> the photos I have but no hint. I thought I could find it easily
> when back home, but this didn't happen !
> Why not joining my French Heritage project ? I see one of the
> Larocque made a Big Y, with some English deep match. The common
> ancestor would be 1400 years ago.
>
> But I see no name and I don't see you as a match. Were you tested
> with something like Dante or FGC or Nebula and then on Yfull ? Or
> with 23andme, which is less accutare ?
> Denis
>
> --
> Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
> Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
> French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
> Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~louislarocque/genealogy/Genetic/genetics.htm
Darrell
Denis Beauregard
<frenchconn...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
>My cousin Louis Larocque (who has maintained the Larocque Family History Book site for decades) has participated in the Big Y test through the Cockburn DNA Project because of the close matches to that area. I proposed to Louis that Rocbrune could be a variation of Cockburn through the years (Cockburn->Coqueborne->Roquebrune) as
Philibert Couillaud dit Roquebrune's ancestry is a brick wall.
>
>https://freepages.rootsweb.com/~louislarocque/genealogy/Genetic/genetics.htm
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Cockburn?iframe=ycolorized
The only other Big Y match is a Shenton and the Cockburns seem to be
too different for a common ancestor after the family names were
inherited.
That said, there are many analysis that could be made for each
specific pioneer with unknown origin.
Darrell E. Larocque
de Fussy, archer de la Garde écossaise du Roi, married Gilberte de Fourchier and Anne Paillet. Fussy is close to Nevers, Nivernais, France where he said he was from. I have two theories as to Philibert's origins, one is that he was the descendant of a soldier who served with Mathieu or his family, or he might have been a child born out of wedlock and called Coqueborne but was actually from another Scot family, being Allan or Preston or Dunn. Either way, it is no coincidence that one of the few Scots to remain in France, surnamed Coqueborne, ended up close to Nevers. We are very much hindered by the anti-DNA feeling amongst the French which made its way into the law, because if we had a large amount of French sampling like we have in the US, Canada or the UK, then we could get closer to the answer. I just hope that I am still alive if there is a groundbreaking genetic discovery so we can finally have more answers!
Darrell
Peter de Loriol Chandieu
the name Couillaut/d is a very old angevin name and is till widely represented.
Peter
Darrell E. Larocque
The problem that I have is that Philibert Couillaud dit Rocquebrune names himself as "of Nevers in the diocese of Nivernais", which makes him a very interesting case. Not many immigrants to New France were from this region, especially men of the Carignan-Salières Regiment and he sticks out like a sore thumb. This is why researchers in the past have been frustrated by his origins. His marriage occurred in New France and there appears to be no ties to his wife's family back in France.
There are two events which have radically changed his history- a false representation of his ancestry by a man named Robert de Roquebrune who made up an ancestry and had it published, and the Y-DNA results which revealed his past ancestry to be tied to the families of Allan, Preston, Dunn, Cockburn and Dunbar in Scotland.
It is true that Couillaud is an Angevin name, but without any clues as to how Scottish DNA is tied to this fact and ending up at the western border of Burgundy thanks to French bioethics law and a dearth or records, we are at a point where nothing more can be discovered.
Darrell
Will Johnson
Autosomal DNA cluster telescopes have been shown to be able to pinpoint segments as old as 500 years already
And this science is only at its start
Darrell E. Larocque
> Not quite.
> Autosomal DNA cluster telescopes have been shown to be able to pinpoint segments as old as 500 years already
> And this science is only at its start
Darrell
Will Johnson
Quebecois samples can be used.
Denis Beauregard
<wjhons...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
>On Thursday, March 30, 2023 at 7:54:41?PM UTC-7, Darrell E. Larocque wrote:
>> > Not quite.
>> > Autosomal DNA cluster telescopes have been shown to be able to pinpoint segments as old as 500 years already
>> > And this science is only at its start
>> Well, the small amount of French samples because of the bioethics law is really hindering progress... you can only go so far with testing if you are connecting dots that are separated by a huge chasm. I would like to know your thoughts on how this could be solved!
>>
>> Darrell
>
>The cluster telescopes do not need any samples from France at all.
>Quebecois samples can be used.
Acadians and some Quebecois is that while there is some Y DNA
signature (quality may vary, from Big Y to YSTR-37 or 23andme and from
optimal (MRCA is the immigrant) to some generations more recent or
even NPE, but the place of origin unknown.
In some cases, a French testee will help to find the place of origin
in France (same name and very good Y DNA match), and in some cases,
even reaching the Medieval times.
Will Johnson
Not Y
Denis Beauregard
<wjhons...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
>On Friday, March 31, 2023 at 2:35:04?PM UTC-7, Denis Beauregard wrote:
>> On Fri, 31 Mar 2023 13:20:26 -0700 (PDT), Will Johnson
>> <wjhons...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
>>
>> >Quebecois samples can be used.
>Not Y
position of shared DNA. I say that for readers who may want to try.
I found a lot of "cousins" that are too far for the length of common
DNA and they have all a long common segment. And for this one, many
far cousins have their ancestors living far (300 miles) from my own
ancestors except one of them born 1794.
Also, I wrote some script to predict the theoretical shared DNA
between 2 persons by comparing their whole family tree (in my
database, I can associate a number to each person so I actually
compare these numbers, the number of generations, presume they
gave half of their DNA and that their own parents provided the
other half, so as to take into account the endogamy because of our
small founding population. And I isolate the common ancestors I
share with those cousins.
Starting from myself, I found thus far 6 remote cousins sharing that
long segment and built their complete genealogical tree.
I found 81 common ancestors for them all. The number of common
ancestors (between them) that I found after adding each now cousin
is getting smaller each time but the series is:
212
143
108
91
81
So I may need 10 more cousins to find some unique common ancestor
having some unique DNA segment. But I have only 6 more cousins
with that long segment.
But then, what do I get ? I mean I identified 7 people sharing some
common DNA segment, but what can I do more ? Sure I can use this
segment to identify those cousins, but the 23andme report is already
reporting the list. Also, the NPE rate is about 1/200. So, in the
34,000 I have found for my first set of 6 cousins, 85 can be the
wrong father. So there is some probability that the common ancestor
I would find could be the wrong one.
Anyway, I don't see how the autosomal tests can be useful to reach
the medieval times. From this test, I think we can't isolate the
original carrier of a long segment from New France ancestry. And
this is probably the place (with Iceland) where it is possible to
identified almost all ancestors before 1800.
Some long segments can be identified. All I can conclude is that
when they are found, then the relationship will be much larger (i.e.
not 5th cousins but 7th or 8th cousin) than what actually happened.
But that's all.
Will Johnson
However what we are finding in autosomal DNA clustering is more akin to the following.
Let's say that you have tested 100 cousins, who all descend from ancestral couple John Brown and Mary Green who lived in 1700
It appears at least 20 of those cousins will have distinct segments that could *only* have come from this couple, using scientific triangulation methods, excluding any other possibility
And those segments can be as large as 40 cms which is significant
So some segments appear to be *sticky* and passed down intact to a large percentage of their descendants
I already myself have clusters as large as 70 descendants, and some people have larger triangulated clusters
I have sticky segments as large as 30 cms that come from people who lived 300 years ago
So I predict it will not be long before we can reach medieval persons using this method
we just need more people to create clusters and join other clusters
Will Johnson
You need to form clusters of tests with like-minded cousins willing to share with you
You yourself might have inherited chromosome 3 from 30 to 60 from your ancestor
But your cousin might have inherited chromosome 5 from 100 to 120 from that exact same ancestor
You need to combine the matches across multiple tests
This is clustering
Denis Beauregard
<wjhons...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
at FTDNA and some people sent me their lists of relatives from
23andme, so I have some more data to analyze. And in my own 23andme
and FF results, I have more long segments.
But all this is very time expensive. Perhaps you may find some
signature from autosomal DNA but I would suppose this is possible
in area where a lot of people are testing, for example because they
have more money in the family or someone is willing to find the
origin for some genetic disease or there is no record available so
autosomal tests may help.
In 2018, I talked with a genetician trying to find the origin of
some defective gene using a large genealogical database and
probably a long set of DNA results but failed, so I may suppose
that in my own area, odds are small, but in other area, odds are
better because more tests are available.
I am now back to Y and MT DNA triangulations ! Not medieval however.
Darrell E. Larocque
I don't think you understand the difficulty we have with Philibert Couillaud dit Rocqubrune. He said he was from Nevers, which is from a region of France that has very few immigrants in New France. The DNA cluster results for all of us who are descendants of French immigrants wouldn't mean NEARLY as much as clusters would from France. We are actually related to each other many times over.
We need FRENCH DNA badly. We cannot simply rely on clusters of cousins that exclude French ones... imagine someone telling you that they walked from Paris to Calais and them only telling you that they didn't use any major roads. How are you supposed to figure out the points in the middle? I have DNA information from:
Op den Velde, Stercken and De Peuter in Netherlands
Ruut in Estonia
Edgar, Langley in England
Osborne in Ireland
Allen, Riddell, Preston, Cockburn, Dunbar, Fraser, Harcus/Arcus in Scotland
This doesn't get us anywhere, it only tells us that in a time period farther back than we need, our Scottish ancestors spread out to the nations present around the North Sea. So, we need to connect Scotland to Quebec, and without the French DNA clusters, we are blind.
Denis isn't familiar with Larocque like I am of course, but he knows how difficult it is to deal with ancestors with no documented past in France.
Darrell
Will Johnson
You do realize that there is no important distinction between a 12th cousin from Piedmont France, and 12th cousin from Montreal?
They are the exact same distance from the common ancestor, and may contribute the exact same DNA segment to the cluster.
Denis Beauregard
<wjhons...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
>So when you say "exclude French ones" you're saying that the Quebecqois families are not French basically.
>You do realize that there is no important distinction between a 12th cousin from Piedmont France, and 12th cousin from Montreal?
>They are the exact same distance from the common ancestor, and may contribute the exact same DNA segment to the cluster.
If someone is 10 times my ancestor, his contribution is from 10
different pieces of DNA, not all of the same size, but they
sum up.
Someone in France has not most of his ancestors from a small set
of 10,000 pioneers so inbreeding (or founding effect) is not
comparable. So, this is an important distinction.
And by the way, Piedmont is in Italy, not in France !
The autosomal test is based on about 600,000 values. The criteria
of FTDNA was to accept 100 consecutive SNPs (I think they changed
to 600 some times ago). So, to have a common ancestor that is not
a matter of coincidence, you need a segment of say at least 100
values.
600,000 for me
300,000 for my parents
150,000 for my g-parents.
...
585 after 8 more generations.
146 after 11 more generations.
And you must be lucky to have something stable after 6 generations.
All that can be consistent would be a sticky segment and you can't
predict it will survive. If you check the segments from FTDNA or
23andme (both are providing the positions of segments), you will see
that set of sticky segments is very small if you compare it to the
number of ancestors you may have after 6 generations.
Darrell E. Larocque
> On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 10:05:23 -0700 (PDT), Will Johnson
> <wjhons...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
> >So when you say "exclude French ones" you're saying that the Quebecqois families are not French basically.
> >You do realize that there is no important distinction between a 12th cousin from Piedmont France, and 12th cousin from Montreal?
> >They are the exact same distance from the common ancestor, and may contribute the exact same DNA segment to the cluster.
> Because of founding effect, this is not true.
>
> If someone is 10 times my ancestor, his contribution is from 10
> different pieces of DNA, not all of the same size, but they
> sum up.
>
> Someone in France has not most of his ancestors from a small set
> of 10,000 pioneers so inbreeding (or founding effect) is not
> comparable. So, this is an important distinction.
>
>
> --
> Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
> Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - http://www.francogene.com/gfan/gfan/998/
> French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
> Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
Darrell
Will Johnson
> On Mon, 3 Apr 2023 10:05:23 -0700 (PDT), Will Johnson
> <wjhons...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
> >So when you say "exclude French ones" you're saying that the Quebecqois families are not French basically.
> >You do realize that there is no important distinction between a 12th cousin from Piedmont France, and 12th cousin from Montreal?
> >They are the exact same distance from the common ancestor, and may contribute the exact same DNA segment to the cluster.
> Because of founding effect, this is not true.
>
> If someone is 10 times my ancestor, his contribution is from 10
> different pieces of DNA, not all of the same size, but they
> sum up.
>
>
> All that can be consistent would be a sticky segment and you can't
> predict it will survive. If you check the segments from FTDNA or
> 23andme (both are providing the positions of segments), you will see
> that set of sticky segments is very small if you compare it to the
> number of ancestors you may have after 6 generations.
This is why you cannot use just your own test
You must have a cluster of tests. Tests from your fifteen cousins.
You must compare them all to each other. This is clustering.
This is the next generation process for going back in time.
>
> --
Will Johnson
And yet it is being done.
It's hard to argue with people who insist that what we are actually doing, is not happening.
Will Johnson
You must identify your DNA matches and how they match you, on which path. Assign chromosome segments to PATHS not to ancestors
Then find collateral lines that are sharing that same SEGMENT with you, so you can step that segment back another generation
Rinse and repeat.
In this way, although I descend from Pierre Allard eight different ways, I know exactly which segments, came down from which of his children, to which of their children, eventually to me.
My cousins, may not inherit a specific segment. This does not mean that I don't know what path that segment took to get to me.
Darrell E. Larocque
pj.ev...@gmail.com
Darrell E. Larocque
Darrell
Denis Beauregard
<frenchconn...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
>On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 9:08:10?PM UTC-4, pj.ev...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Will is very sure that DNA has all the answers to every genealogy question, even when there's no other data to connect it with.
>
>I am curious now that I think about it... where does Pierre Allard come from besides being from Sainte-Hermine, Luçon? Why hasn't DNA already told us more about his past? You would think that if there was such a large amount of immigrants from Poitou that by your logic this would not be an issue. See what I mean? I don't see how
you can definitively conclude your clusters are the solution when someone like Pierre Allard that has a much larger representation by diocese doesn't even have a genetic solution for ancestry.
carry that Y chromosome. Triangulations (partly with no paper trail)
can reach 1000 years ago.
MT DNA is given by the mother to all children except that only
daughters will carry it to the next generation so that MT DNA
will follow the maternal lineage. Triangulations need a paper trail
because family names are changing in our culture.
Autosomal DNA is carried by every one and split 50:50 to children
but not 25:25:25:25 to the next generation. One result is that some
sticky segment may survive for a long time. I have found myself
such a segment surviving since about 300 years, perhaps more, but I
can't identify who provided it. I spent a week to study this segment
because 23andme is not providing many details to identify the cousins
(FTDNA is more helpful but has a small base of users while AncestryDNA
has more users but no details about the shared segments). Maybe I can
find more segments to study (about myself) or someone can give me a
full access to his/her 23andme and tested his cousins, but all this is
time consuming.
The theory of Will is that if you can identify who carried it in 1700,
then you can find deeper ancestry also carrying it. It seems that Will
has some illimited budget for DNA testing and a lot of cousins who
accept to be tested, and also a huge team of genealogists to found all
the involved pedigrees. And 1700 is not yet medieval times.
One problem in New France is endogamy and founding effect. One very
good point in New France is that there are so many tools to complete
a genealogy that you can verify most of the lineages you find.
Will Johnson
Well you can, perhaps for a hundred years back
As you try to go back further, you will find that pedigree collapse hinders you yourself alone from identifying sticky segments because your own knowledge and the paper trail fail you at some point.
This is why you need a cluster of DNA tests. That is, you need to be able to view, manage, own, a set of DNA tests for all kinds of family members.
You must eliminate the possibility of NPEs in each line, one by one, prove descent from multiple collateral lines, identify any potential double cousins situations. There are many steps, and you can't do it only with your own test results.
I have access to about 90 tests, so I'm in a unique situation I suppose. Most people don't care to do that level of work.
However even just having access say to a few first cousins, and a few second cousins tests, you can make tremendous progress in identifying which segments, came down from which ancestral couples
You can then, using Gedmatch, search for anyone else with that overlapping segment and collaborate with them
Will Johnson
I am slowly, but steadily teaching others my genetoarbre triangulation process
Too many people have their head in mud and don't seem to comprehend that it is possible to do
Michael Larocque
I am very new to ancestry and geanology and was wondering if there could be a way we could communicate online about our ancestors together.
Because I am new I have found it difficult understanding everything and find I might be getting things wrong aswell. Also before reading everything written here I had no clue that there was a Y test done or anything like that which connects to Scottish. Could you enlighten me a bit on that?
Owen Caddell
Darrell E. Larocque
> Looks like y'all have did a dead end. Not surprising considering y'all heeding the advice of a man (Denis Beauregard) who believes that la Pere d'Acadie (Charles La Tour) was a Catholic. LOL!!! Misinformed.