C.P. Addition: Agnes, wife of Walter Giffard, 1st Earl of Buckingham
Douglas Richardson
The authoritative Complete Peerage, 2 (1912): 386-387 (sub Buckingham)
has a good account of the life history of Walter Giffard (died 1102),
1st Earl of Buckingham, which individual was a near kinsman of King
William the Conqueror. While Earl Walter Giffard has no modern
descendants, most newsgroup members are in fact descended from his
sister, Rohese Giffard, who is the ancestress of the later baronial
Clare family.
Regarding Walter Giffard's marriage, Complete Peerage has the following
to say:
"He married Agnes, sister of Anselm de Ribemont. He [Walter] died 15
July 1102, in England, and was buried at Longueville, in Normandy.
M.I." END OF QUOTE
As we can see, no information is provided regarding his wife, Agnes,
regarding her death date or her activities following her husband's
death.
The charter below is taken from the book, Cartulaire de l'Abbaye de
Conques en Rouergue, published by Gustave Desjardins in 1879. The
charter is dated after 1107, and was issued by Earl Walter Giffard the
younger and his mother, Agnes. Thus it appears that Agnes, wife of the
senior Walter, survived his death and was living as late as 1107. By
this charter, the younger Earl Walter conveyed the tithe [decimam] in
Taverham, Norfolk to Conques Abbey. As an aside, I should note that
the charter is witnessed by various military tenants of Earl Walter
Giffard the younger, including Eustache and Robert de Grenville. The
Grenville family has numerous modern descendants in England.
pg. 359:
"497. [DE TAUREHAM.] Après 1107.
Quadragesimali tempore, ebdomada secunda, feria VI, venit comes
Galterus, cognomento Gifardus, Conchas ad sanctam Fidem et mater ejus
Agnes, ibique in præsentia domni Bonefacii abbatis et omnium fratrum,
pro salute sua patrumque suorum et omnium parentum, dederunt omnem
decimam suam quam habebant apud Thaureham ut fratres de Horsam qui sunt
monachi sanctæ Fidis illam teneant et inde abbati respondeant. Testes
sunt: Antelmus de Pothuilla, Rogerus de sancto Laurentio, Thebaldus de
Espolvilla, Rotbertus del Bec, Gislebertus de Pothuilla, Eustachius de
Grandivilla, Rogerus de Berrevilla, Willelmo de Nova Villa, Engerrannus
de Belnai, Odo de Trobetvilla, Eustachius de Chrichetoth, Rotbertus et
Bencio capellani, item Rotbertus de Graneville, Malgerus et alii
clientes, Frahissendis de Granevilla mater Eustachii, Beatrix uxor
Thebaldi, idem Beatrix et ceteri, et omnes sunt testes hujus rei, et
ejusdem monasterii confratres." END OF QUOITE.
Best always, Douglas Richardson,. Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry.net
John Higgins
newsgroup members are in fact descended from his sister, Rohese Giffard".
Presumably you meant to say "most newsgroup members who have traceable
medieval English ancestry"....a much narrower (and perhaps more supportable)
conclusion.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 11:49 AM
Subject: C.P. Addition: Agnes, wife of Walter Giffard, 1st Earl of
Buckingham
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> The authoritative Complete Peerage, 2 (1912): 386-387 (sub Buckingham)
> has a good account of the life history of Walter Giffard (died 1102),
> 1st Earl of Buckingham, which individual was a near kinsman of King
> William the Conqueror. While Earl Walter Giffard has no modern
> descendants, most newsgroup members are in fact descended from his
> sister, Rohese Giffard, who is the ancestress of the later baronial
> Clare family.
>
[snip of rest]
Douglas Richardson
Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.
As I stated, Rohese Giffard is in the ancestry of most newsgroup
posters. Her descendants are simply legion. For those interested in
seeing if they possess a descent from Rohese Giffard, they may view a
listing of her descendants for 10 generations at Jim Weber's great
website at the following weblink:
http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=DESC&db=jweber&id=I01761
I have at least four descents from Rohese Giffard myself, two through
Isabel de Clare, wife of William Marshal, Earl of Pembroke; one through
Gilbert de Clare, Earl of Gloucester & Hertford (1st husband of Joan of
Acre); and one through Aveline de Clare, wife of Geoffrey Fitz Peter,
Earl of Essex.
Perhaps as individual posters have time, they can share their descents
from Rohese Giffard, and we can discuss problem areas. Also, we can
forward any corrections and additions onto Jim Weber, who always
appreciates help from fellow genealogists.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry.net
John Higgins
that she is "in the ancestry of most newsgroup posters" is still a broad and
unsupportable assertion (although slightly narrower than the original
formulation of "most newsgroup members".). It assumes that most
participants in the newsgroup (A) are tracing their own ancestors who (B)
have ancestry in the British Isles which is (C) traceable to the medieval
period. There are quite a few of us who don't qualify under one or more of
these criteria. "Most" of the group? -- I don't know....but I would hope
that the group is more than just a little clique of English medievalists, as
you suggest by your statement.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Merilyn Pedrick
Dammartin, Aubri I de Dammartin, Aubri II de Dammartin, Agnes de Dammartin,
Enguerrand de Fiennes, Sir William III de Fiennes, Margaret de Fiennes,
Roger IV de Mortimer, Catherine de Mortimer, Maud de Beauchamp, Catherine de
Clifford, Maud de Greystoke, Lionel Welles, Eleanor Welles, Ann Hoo,
Margaret Copley, Edward Lewknor, Mary Lewknor, Mary Machell, James Cudworth
etc.
Then Gilbert fitz Richard de Clare, Adeliza de Clare, Agnes de Percy, Maud
de Percy, Robert, d'Eiville, John d'Eiville, John d'Eiville, Joan d'Eiville,
William de Everingham, Joan Everingham, Joan Waterton, Eleanor Welles, etc.
etc.
Then Robert fitz Richard de Clare, Maud de St. Liz, William III d"Aubigny,
William IV d'Aubigny, Isabel d'Aubigny, William II de Ros, William III de
Ros, Maud de Ros, John de Welles, Eudo de Welles, Lionel Welles etc. etc.
Merilyn Pedrick
-------Original Message-------
From: Douglas Richardson
Date: 02/03/06 07:49:59
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Descendants of Rohese Giffard
mj...@btinternet.com
Douglas Richardson wrote:
>
> Perhaps as individual posters have time, they can share their descents
> from Rohese Giffard, and we can discuss problem areas. Also, we can
> forward any corrections and additions onto Jim Weber, who always
> appreciates help from fellow genealogists.
>
The Pabenhams need to be unhooked from the website: they descend from
an Offord marriage, not Ufford [i.e. no descent from Lord Ufford,
father of the Earl of Suffolk].
MAR
mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk
Douglas Richardson wrote:
> For those interested in
> seeing if they possess a descent from Rohese Giffard, they may view a
> listing of her descendants for 10 generations at Jim Weber's great
> website at the following weblink:
>
> http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=DESC&db=jweber&id=I01761
>
> from Rohese Giffard, and we can discuss problem areas. Also, we can
> forward any corrections and additions onto Jim Weber, who always
> appreciates help from fellow genealogists.
>
look very likely. One goes via the de Burgh family, another via the
Lucy family; neither account tallies with information posted by Douglas
and others on these families.
FWIW, the new ODNB gives various different family details. For Rohese's
daughters, it omits Avice (de Stafford) and Rohais (de Tellieres);
includes Rohese (de Rye), but not the Dammartin marriage, and the
daughter (not named) said to have married Ralph de Fougeres and had 3
sons; and adds an Adeliza, married to Walter Tirel of Poix. Another
child missing from Jim's list is Walter, founder of Tintern Abbey.
As for the daughters of Rohese's son Gilbert (d.1117), DNB concurs with
Alice (de Vere), Rohese (of Monmouth) and Margaret (de Monfichet); but
does not include Hawise (de Say) or Agnes (St Leger).
In the next generation, the daughters of Richard de Clare (k.1136), DNB
has Alice (de Percy) but not the other 3 given by Jim (m to Scrope,
Gant/fitzRobert & ap Richard).
And, far enough for now, the daughters of earl Roger (d.1173): DNB has
Aveline (de Munchensi/fitzPiers) but not Elana (de Grey); it also adds
another daughter, Mabel, married to William Helion (d.1212-18) with
issue, the Helions of Essex (who have their own DNB article). I've seen
a tree claiming that the Herefordshire Helions descend from this
marriage, but I don't think that's true.
Matthew
mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk
mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> the daughters of Richard de Clare (k.1136), DNB
> has Alice (de Percy) but not the other 3 given by Jim (m to Scrope,
> Gant/fitzRobert & ap Richard).
>
marriage; but is he correct to derive the Woodvilles ultimately from
this match?
The Welsh marriage should be to Cadwaladr ap Gruffudd of course, my
mistake. I seem to remember discussing this not that long ago here; the
DNB says Cadwaladr's wife Aliz de Clare (Adles is just the Welsh
version of Alice) was "quite possibly to be identified with Adeliza,
widow of Richard de Clare d.1136". Whatever the truth, it seems
unlikely she was a daughter of that Richard if he had the other Alice
(m. Wm Percy).
Doug McDonald
> I come down from three of her children
Myself also, in a large number of lines.
Not too vast to count, but too vast to mention. Remember that
virtually "all of Scotland" descends from her, at least all
of Scottish royalty. She is an ancestor of the Bruce.
Doug McDonald
Douglas Richardson
Dear "other" Doug ~
Besides the royal Brus family in Scotland, I note that Rohese Giffard
is also ancestral to the early Earls of Dunbar and Strathearn in
Scotland, and the Earls of Ulster in Ireland. Her descendants are
simply legion.
I can only fathom how many descents that Prince William has from her.
Perhaps the ever helpful Ian Fettes can enlighten us on that point.
Best always, Douglas Richardson. Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry.net
Douglas Richardson
I suggest you send Jim Weber a private e-mail and tell him the
correction you are proposing. His e-mail address is:
Jim appreciates getting additions and corrections from his fellow
genealogists.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry.net
Kevin Bradford
http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=plantagenet&id=I3498
KB
Doug McDonald
> Doug McDonald wrote:
>> Merilyn Pedrick wrote:
>>> I come down from three of her children
>> Myself also, in a large number of lines.
>>
>
> Perhaps the ever helpful Ian Fettes can enlighten us on that point.
>
I calculate that I have her 181 times in my Ahnentafel. James VI and I
has her only 259 times in my file. There may be paths through
continental families that I do not have in my file, but they should
be there in the James VI/I data.
Doug McDonald
Douglas Richardson
> A couple more points:
> mvernonconno...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > the daughters of Richard de Clare (k.1136), DNB
> > has Alice (de Percy) but not the other 3 given by Jim (m to Scrope,
> > Gant/fitzRobert & ap Richard).
> Jim quotes the CP account which emphatically supports the Clare/Gant
> marriage; but is he correct to derive the Woodvilles ultimately from
> this match?
I believe the Clare/Gant marriage you've mentioned is the marriage of
Rohese de Clare and Gilbert de Gant (died 1156), Earl of Lincoln. This
couple can be found in Jim Weber's database at the following weblink:
http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=jweber&id=...
The evidence for this marriage is found in Rufford Charters, edited by
C.J. Holdsworth, published as Thoroton Society Record Series, vol. 30,
in 1974. On page 392 of that work, Countess Rohese [of Lincoln] is
styled "soror comitis Rogeri de Clara" [i.e., sister of Earl Roger
de Clare]. Rohese de Clare, Countess of Lincoln, was a
great-granddaughter of Rohese Giffard.
Regarding the alleged Wydeville descendants that Jim Weber shows for
Countess Rohese de Clare, it appears that this line is a descent from
an illegitimate branch of the Senlis family, as Rohese's legitimate
daughter, Alice de Gant, wife of Simon de Senlis, definitely died
without issue. As such, the Wydevilles would lose the Clare descent,
although a connection to the Senlis family is still possible.
Fortunately, Countess Rohese de Clare has numerous legitimate
descendants from her 2nd marriage to Robert Fitz Robert, steward to
William de Percy. For interest's sake, I've listed below the various
17th Century colonial immigrants who descend from Countess Rohese de
Clare and Robert Fitz Robert.
William Asfordby, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Joseph
Bolles, Edward Carleton, Henry Corbin, Francis Dade, Katherine Hamby,
Henry, Jane & Nicholas Lowe, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne
Mauleverer, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Ellen Newton, George Reade, Diana &
Grey Skipwith, Olive Welby.
Douglas Richardson
< I would hope that the group is more than just a little clique of
English medievalists, as
< you suggest by your statement.
Rohese Giffard has descendants in all parts of the world. Her
descendants are legion.
Tim Powys-Lybbe
> It appears as though I have 4 of her children in my line, for a total
> of over 170 separate descents in the 10th generation:
>
> http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=plantagenet
> &id=I3498
or 1598?
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
Ian Fettes
I am in the middle of a major update to my database, so cannot answer the
question just now. When the update is complete I will post my version of
the lines between Rohese Giffard and Prince William.
Cheers,
Ian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 1:30 AM
Subject: Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard
> ______________________________
Ian Fettes
Following the earlier suggestion of Douglas Richardson, I have now been able
to calculate the number of descent lines to Prince William from Rohese
Giffard. I also show some other interesting descent numbers for comparison.
From Rohese Giffard 270,813 lines
From William the Conqueror 2,337,676 lines
From Charlemagne 1,714,858,673 lines.
Cheers,
Ian Fettes
Douglas Richardson
Thank you so much for posting this information. Much appreciated. So
far I've counted five descents from Rohese Giffard in my own ancestry,
which clearly pales in comparison to Prince William's 270,813 descents.
I'll definitely have to work at finding more descents from Rohese
Giffard to catch up to Prince William's total.
When you have a moment, Ian, perhaps you can share how many descents
you possess yourself from Rohese Giffard.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry.net
Doug McDonald
> Dear Ian ~
>
> Thank you so much for posting this information. Much appreciated. So
> far I've counted five descents from Rohese Giffard in my own ancestry,
> which clearly pales in comparison to Prince William's 270,813 descents.
How do you count "descent"? When I said I had 181, I meant
very exactly that there were so many appearances of her in
my own Ahnentafel ancestor tree, with different Ahanentafel numbers.
5 is a very small number.
Doug McDonald
Douglas Richardson
I've noted your statement that the ODNB states that Rohese Giffard had
a daughter who married Ralph de Fougères. I've researched the
Fougères family in French sources and have found charter evidence
which indicates that the wife of Raoul I, seigneur of Fougères in
Brittany, was named Avice (Latin form: Avicia or Avitia).
Interestingly, this woman is ancestral to Countess Joan de Geneville,
wife of Roger de Mortimer, Knt. (died 1330), 1st Earl of March. Thus,
many newsgroup posters possess the Fougères connection back to Rohese
Giffard through the Mortimer and Geneville families.
The charter below is taken from the cartulary of the Priory of Holy
Trinity de Fougères [Prieuré de la Sainte-Trinité de Fougères]
which was published in Bulletin Archéologique de l'Association
Bretonne, volume 3, published in 1851. According to the editor's notes
(in French), this religious house was founded about the middle of the
11th century by Raoul I de Fougères, seigneur of Fougères, and by his
mother, Adélaïde, widow of Main II de Fougères. The exact date of
the foundation is uncertain, the editor places it as being between 1064
and 1076 (" ... la fondation de notre prieuré se place donc entre 1064
et 1076."). Elsewhere, I find in a post in the newsgroup archives that
Raoul I de Fougères was seigneur of Fougères between 1074 (death date
of his father) and 1120 (his own death date).
In one of the charters published in Fougères cartulary, Raoul I de
Fougères is joined by his wife, Avice, in granting the tithe of
Fougères ["decima de Filgeriis"]:
"X. 'De Decima de Filgeriis."
Notum sit omnibus tam futuris quam presentibus quatinus Radulfus
Filogerensis et uxor ejus Avicia nomine totam Hilduini mansilis militum
vel in militia tenentium decimam, quam in proprietate habebant,
monachis beatissimi Martini Majoris Monasterii pro mille solidis quos
ab eis acceperant, tradiderunt. Habuerant enim ex eis non solum mille
sed etiam tria milia solidorum quos in æcclesiæ Filgorensis
ædificationibus reddere promiserant. Istos ergo Radulfus, annuente
Avitia uxore, reddidit atque compententibus alios temporibus se omnes
redditurum promisit. Hoc donum receperunt beatissimi Martini monachi
Albertus, Rivallonius, Guillelmus, Guarinus, Evanus et Bernerius;
audientibus testibus istis et videntibus Damarroco presbitero.
Herberto presbitero. Radulfo ejusdem oppidi [domini et Avitia] ejus
uxore. Hamelino de Curtellis. Hamelino Pinell .... Bentcerrado.
Roberto de Vendello. Hamelino Lupelli filio. Troserio. Hugone
Gencionis filio. Andrea Guigonis filio. Rogerio. Juhale Juhalis
filio. Item ex familia monachorum Bono amcio de Sancto Salvatore.
Richerio. Arnulfo Martini filio Herberto Fullone. Bernardo Hardfulfo.
Gaufredo et Ogerio.
De hoc dono Radulfi Filogerensis et de omnibus donis quæ ipse vel
pater ejus Maino monachis beatissimi Martini apud Hilduini mansile vel
in comitatu comitis Moritonii fecerant, Guillelmus Moritonii comes pro
palefrido quodam auctoramentum fecit Rivallonio monacho ante montem
Sancti Michaelis et per cum perpetualitier ceteris beatissimi Martini
monachis, audientibus et videntibus testibus istis. Guillelmo de
Biardis. Gaufredo Rivalloni filio. Roberto Giroldi filio et Guidone
de Landevi. Item, apud oppidum Sancti Hilarii, Harchodio vicecomite
Petro fratre ejus Guillelmino Augonis filio et Bociardo de Castelerio.
Secundam iterum decimationem ex propria annona Radulfi Filogerensis
debemus habere." Pris sur l'original, écriture du XIIe siècle. - Au
dos, en écriture de XIIe or du XIIIe siècle: "De decima de
Filgeriis." [Reference: Bulletin Archéologique de l'Association
Bretonne, 3 (1851): 195-196].
For interest's sake, I've listed below the numerous New World 17th
Century colonists who descend from Avice, wife of Raoul de Fougères,
seigneur of Fougères, through her descendant, Joan de Geneville,
Countess of March:
Robert Abell, Elizabeth Alsop, William Asfordby, Barbara Aubrey,
Charles Barnes, Anne Baynton, Richard & William Bernard, John Bevan,
Essex Beville, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Joseph
Bolles, Thomas Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, George, Giles & Robert Brent,
Stephen Bull, Charles Calvert, Edward Carleton, Grace Chetwode, Jeremy
Clarke, James Cudworth, St. Leger Codd, Francis Dade, Humphrey Davie,
Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton, Edward Digges, Thomas Dudley,
Rowland Ellis, William Farrer, John Fenwick, John Fisher, Henry Fleete,
Edward Foliot, Muriel Gurdon, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Warham
Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Edmund, Edward, Matthew & Richard Kempe,
Mary Launce, Hannah, Samuel & Sarah Levis, Thomas Ligon, Nathaniel
Littleton, Thomas Lloyd, Henry, Jane & Nicholas Lowe, Percival Lowell,
Thomas Lunsford, Agnes Mackworth, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield,
Anne Mauleverer, Richard More, Joseph & Mary Need, John Nelson, Philip
& Thomas Nelson, Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Herbert Pelham, Robert
Peyton, Henry & William Randolph, George Reade, William Rodney, Thomas
Rudyard, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, Anthony Savage,
William Skepper, Diana & Grey Skipwith, Mary Johanna Somerset, John
Stockman, Samuel & William Torrey, John & Lawrence Washington, John
West, Amy Willis, Thomas Wingfield, Hawte Wyatt.
For the generations between Joan de Geneville, Countess of March, and
the individual immigrants listed above, please see Douglas Richardson,
Plantagenet Ancestry (2004) or Douglas Richardson, Magna Carta Ancestry
(2005).
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry.net
mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
<
< FWIW, the new ODNB gives various different family details. For
Rohese's
> daughters, it omits Avice (de Stafford) and Rohais (de Tellieres);
< includes Rohese (de Rye), but not the Dammartin marriage, and the
< daughter (not named) said to have married Ralph de Fougeres and had 3
< sons; and adds an Adeliza, married to Walter Tirel of Poix. Another
< child missing from Jim's list is Walter, founder of Tintern Abbey.
< Matthew
Douglas Richardson
By descent, I mean blood descent. I probably have more than five
descent from Rohese Giffard. That's the current number subject to
revision. One newsgroup poster tells me he has 86 descents from Rohese
Giffard through one immigrant alone. That's awesome!
As we work through various additions and corrections to the Clare
family tree, though, the numbers are going to change for everyone.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry.net
.
Ian Fettes
For what it is worth, I count 2,863 lines from Rohese Giffard, as I manage
to link in to part of Lady Diana Spencer's Devon ancestry.
Cheers,
Ian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 5:30 AM
Subject: Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard
Doug McDonald
> Doug McDonald wrote:
>> Douglas Richardson wrote:
>>> Dear Ian ~
>>>
>>> Thank you so much for posting this information. Much appreciated. So
>>> far I've counted five descents from Rohese Giffard in my own ancestry,
>>> which clearly pales in comparison to Prince William's 270,813 descents.
>> How do you count "descent"? When I said I had 181, I meant
>> very exactly that there were so many appearances of her in
>> my own Ahnentafel ancestor tree, with different Ahanentafel numbers.
>>
>> 5 is a very small number.
>>
>> Doug McDonald
>
> By descent, I mean blood descent. I probably have more than five
> descent from Rohese Giffard. That's the current number subject to
> revision. One newsgroup poster tells me he has 86 descents from Rohese
> Giffard through one immigrant alone. That's awesome!
>
I still don't see how you are counting "descents" to get such a small number.
I have two royally connected immigrant ancestors, William Ironmonger and the
Rev. Robert Rose of Virginia. Ironmonger has 4 descents from her in my files,
and Rose has 177. As I said, I simply have a computer generate a complete
Ahnentafel for the near-modern person of interest, including all duplicate lines, and
count up the instances of the distant ancestor of interest. Is that what you are doing?
This means, for example, just as a guess (I have not counted) if the Bruce has
5 descents from Rohese, and I have 10 from the Bruce, I would have 50 from
Rohese using just those lines. If I count only descents that never cross,
I would have only three.
Doug McDonald
Douglas Richardson
I reviewed the list of Rohese Giffard's list of descendants for six
generations. So far, I've spotted a total of six descents in my
ancestry. So I'm now up to six descents.
1. Agnes (Harris) (Spencer) Edwards
One descent through Aveline de Clare, wife of Geoffrey Fitz Peter, Earl
of Essex.
2. Elizabeth (Haynes) Cooke:
One descent through Elizabeth de Clare, daughter of Gilbert de Clare,
Earl of Gloucester & Hertford & Joan of England
One descent through a daughter of Isabel de Clare, wife of William
Marshal, Earl of Pembroke.
One descent through Alice de Clare, wife of Aubrey de Vere
3. John Baynard:
One descent through a daughter of Isabel de Clare, wife of William
Marshal, Earl of Pembroke.
One descent through Alice de Clare, wife of Aubrey de Vere
Tony Hoskins
If it wouldn't be too much of a chore, I wonder if the number of
descents from Rohese Giffard for some other "American gateways" might be
given?
Speaking selfishly (!), how about the numbers for these ancestors of
mine?:
Elizabeth (Alsop) (Baldwin) Fowler (CT)
William Asfordby (NY)
Obadiah Bruen (CT/NJ)
Jane (Deighton) (Lugg) Negus (MA)
Alice (Freeman) (Thompson) Parke (CT)
Edmund Kemp (VA)
Roger Mallory (VA)
John West (VA)
Is there a way for the lay-person to enquire for such statistics on
"Genealogics"?
Many thanks.
Tony
Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404
Douglas Richardson
Searching through various French sources this evening, I came across an
agreement dated 7 November 1248 between Raoul III de Fougères,
seigneur of Fougères, and his maternal aunts and their husbands,
Pierre de Chemillé and Elienor his wife and Olivier de Montauban and
Jeanne his wife, regarding the rights and possessions of each of them
in the fief of Porhoët formerly held by "monseignor Eun le filz le
Comte." [Reference: Louis Rosenzweig, Cartulaire général de
Morbihan, 1 (1895): 223-225]. This record may be viewed online at the
helpful gallica website at the following weblink:
http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/CadresFenetre?O=NUMM-91425&M=notice&Y=Image
Raoul III de Fougères involved in this document was the maternal
grandfather of Joan (or Jeanne) de la Marche, wife of Sir Peter de
Geneville (died 1292), of Ludlow, Shropshire, which Joan in turn was
the mother of Joan de Geneville, wife of Sir Roger de Mortimer, 1st
Earl of March.
The individual mentioned as "Eun le filz le Comte" is doubtless the
same individual who appears in earlier charters dated 1221, 1225, and
1231 in this same cartulary as "Eudo filius Comitis." [Reference: Louis
Rosenzweig, Cartulaire général de Morbihan, 1 (1895): 206, 209-210,
215-216]. The modern editor identifies "Eudo filius Comitis" in his
first charter as "Eudes son of the Count of Porhoët," and, in the
later ones as "Eudes Vicomte de Rohan." Curiously, in none of the
charters does Eudes refer to himself as Vicomte of Rohan, nor as Count
Eudes, only as "Eudo filius Comitis." Eudes son of the Count, or if
you prefer Eudes Fitz Count, was the maternal grandfather of Raoul III
de Fougères. He reportedly died in 1234. On his mother's side, Eudes
Fitz Count was a great-grandson of King Henry I of England.
Eudes Fitz Count's father in turn is the person who appears in a
charter dated 1164 in this same cartulary as Eudes, Count of Brittany
(specifically "Eudo, Britannie comes") [Reference: Louis Rosenzweig,
Cartulaire général de Morbihan, 1 (1895): 183-184]. In this charter,
Count Eudes refers to several relatives: Josce his brother ["Joscii
fretris mei"]; his nephews, sons of Josce ["nepotibus meis filiis
videlicet ipsius Joscii "]; his paternal uncle, Josce the vicomte
["Joscius vicecomes, patruus meus"]; and his kinsman, Alan de Rohan
["cognato meo"]. This charter was witnessed by Count Eudes' brother,
Stephen.
Count Eudes ["Eudo comes"] likewise appears in an earlier charter dated
1153, which is given with the consent of Eudes' two brothers, Josce the
Vicomte and Alan Ceoche [Reference: Louis Rosenzweig, Cartulaire
général de Morbihan, 1 (1895): 179-180]. Alan Ceoche, of course, is
the male line ancestor of the baronial Zouche family of England. Count
Eudes is elsewhere mentioned in a still earlier charter dated 1130,
along with his father, Geoffrey the vicomte [Reference: Louis
Rosenzweig, Cartulaire général de Morbihan, 1 (1895): 172].
Curiously, several of the male relatives of Count Eudes in the above
mentioned charters don't seem to be mentioned in modern databases that
I've checked.
Jwc...@aol.com
Here are a couple of the many descents of
the Deighton sisters from Rohese de Giffard, Lady of Clare
1 Rohese de Giffard married Richard Fitzgilbert, Lord of Clare d
1084
2Gilbert Fitzrichard, Lord of Clare d 1114/17 married Adelize of
Clermont
3 Richard Fitzgilbert de Clare, Lord of Clare d 1136 married
Adelize of Chester
3 Gilbert Fitzgilbert de Clare, 1st Earl of Pembroke d 1148
married Isabel de Beaumont
4 (son of Richard) Roger de Clare d 1173, Earl of Clare and
Hertford married Maud de St Hilary
4 (son of Gilbert) Richard de Clare d 1176, Earl of Pembroke
married Eva of Leinster
5 Avelina de Clare married (2nd wife) Geoffrey Fitzpeter, Earl of
Essex
5 Isabel de Clare d 1220, suo jure Countess of Pembroke married
William Marshal, jure uxoris Earl of Pembroke d 1219
6 Sir John Fitzgeoffrey d 1258 married Isabel le Bigod (see below)
6 Maud Marshal d 1248 m 1st Hugh le Bigod, Magna Carta Surety d
1221, later 3rd Earl of Norfolk
7 Isabel le Bigod married 2nd Sir John Fitzgeoffrey (see above)
8 Maud Fitzjohn d 1301 married 2nd William Beauchamp, 9th Earl
of Warwick
9 Isabel Beauchamp married 2nd Hugh le DeSpencer, Earl of
Winchester executed 1326
10 Hugh le DeSpencer executed 1326 2nd Lord le DeSpencer married
Eleanor de Clare
11 Sir Edward le DeSpencer, Kt. killed 1342 married Anne Ferrers
of Groby
12 Edward le DeSpencer, 4th Lord le DeSpencer married Elizabeth
Burghesh
11 Elizabeth le DeSpencer married Maurice de Berkeley, 4th Lord
Berkeley
13 Margaret le DeSpencer d 1415 married Robert de Ferrers, de
jure 5th Lord Ferrers of Chartley d 1413
12 Sir James de Berkeley, kt. d 1405 married Elizabeth Bluet d
1420
14 Edmund de Ferrers, de jure 6th Lord Ferrers of Chartley d1435
married Ellen de la Roche d 1440
13 James de Berkeley, 6th Lord Berkeley d 1463 married 3rd
Isabel de Mowbray d 1452
15 Margaret de Ferrers of Chartley d after January 1488 married
John Beauchamp, 1st Lord Beauchamp of Powick
14 Maurice Berkeley, de jure 8th Lord Berkeley d1506 married
Isabel Meade d 1514
16 Richard Beauchamp, 2nd Lord Beauchamp of Powick d 1503
married Elizabeth Stafford of Grafton
15 Anne Berkeley married Sir William Dennis, Kt. of Dirham,
Gloucester d 1533
17 Anne Beauchamp d 1534 married Richard Lygon of Madresfield,
Worcester d 1512
16 Isabel Dennis d 1559 married Sir John Berkeley, Kt. of Stoke
Giffard, Gloucester d 1546
18 Sir Richard Ligon, Kt. of Madresfield, Gloucester d1556
married 1st Margery Greville d 1542
17 Elizabeth Berkeley of Stoke Giffard, Gloucester married
Henry Ligon (see next)
19 Henry Ligon of Upton St Leonard`s, Gloucester d 1577 married
Elizabeth Berkeley of Stoke Giffard (above)
18/ 20 Elizabeth Ligon d after 1602 married Edward Basset,
Gentleman of Uley, Gloucester d 1602
19 / 21 Jane Basset d 1631 married John Deighton, Gentleman of
St Nicholas, Gloucester died 1640
20 / 22 Jane Deighton ,wife of John Lugg and Jonathan Negus
20 / 22 Frances Deighton, wife of Richard Williams
20 / 22 Katherine Deighton, wife of Samuel Hackburne /
Hagborne, Governor Thomas Dudley and Reverend John Allin
Sources Generations 1- 5 Carl Boyer 3rd Medieval English Ancestors of
Certain Americans pp 50-54, 5- 12 AR 7 lines 66, 69, 72, 74; generations 9-22
Douglas Richardson Magna Carta Ancestry see subjects Beauchamp,Berkeley, Dennis,
Deighton, DeSpencer,Ferrers, Ligon and Powick
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
Ian Fettes
I have done a special extract from Genealogics for those gateway ancestors
in the database nominated below. There is a lot of computation involved, so
this is not a feature that could be provided online.
I show the generation count (including the base person) over which the lines
apply.
Cheers,
Ian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Hoskins" <hos...@sonoma.lib.ca.us>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 9:11 AM
Subject: Re: Descendants of Rohese Giffard
> Hello Ian:
>
> If it wouldn't be too much of a chore, I wonder if the number of
> descents from Rohese Giffard for some other "American gateways" might be
> given?
>
> Speaking selfishly (!), how about the numbers for these ancestors of
> mine?:
>
> Elizabeth (Alsop) (Baldwin) Fowler (CT) === 65 lines over 20 -24 gens.
> William Asfordby (NY) =============== 163 lines over 20 - 26 gens.
> Obadiah Bruen (CT/NJ)=============== 7 lines over 18 - 22 gens.
> Jane (Deighton) (Lugg) Negus (MA)====== 58 lines over 19 - 24 gens.
> Alice (Freeman) (Thompson) Parke (CT)=== 1 line in 22 gens.
> Edmund Kemp (VA)
> Roger Mallory (VA)================== 9 lines in 18 - 22 gens.
> John West (VA)==================== 186 lines in 18 - 23 gens.
>
> Is there a way for the lay-person to enquire for such statistics on
> "Genealogics"?
>
> Many thanks.
>
> Tony
>
> Anthony Hoskins
> History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
> History and Genealogy Library
> Sonoma County Library
> 3rd and E Streets
> Santa Rosa, California 95404
>
> 707/545-0831, ext. 562
>
> ______________________________
John P. Ravilious
Dear Doug,
Thanks for that fine post concerning the Fougeres, la Zouche
and related families. Especially for those additional relations
named in the 1164 and 1248 charters/agreements, concerning whom
additional research will be of interest (when time allows).
The few quibbles I have are as follows:
1. Concerning 'Eun le filz le Comte', you wrote.
' Eudes son of the Count, or if you prefer Eudes Fitz
Count, was the maternal grandfather of Raoul III
de Fougères. He reportedly died in 1234. On his
mother's side, Eudes Fitz Count was a great-grandson
of King Henry I of England. '
It is possible that Eudo III, vicomte de Porhoet was the
son of Eudo 'II' (d. ca. 1185) by his 1st wife, Bertha,
Countess (Duchess as given elsewhere) of Brittany. In
the SGM thread <Lusignan and Fougeres> from 1999, Oliver
Cocheril showed Eudo III as son of the second marriage,
to Herve, comte de Leon.
However, I would suggest from the chronology that Maud
de Porhoet, mother of Raoul, was a sister of Eudo III,
and a daughter of Eudo II (see below). This would likewise
make Elienor, wife of Pierre de Chemillé, and Jeanne, wife
of Olivier de Montauban, daughters of Eudo II de Porhoet.
~ In a prior thread, there was discussion whether or
not the wife of this Herve de Leon, illegitimate
daughter of King Stephen of England ("Stephen of
Blois"), was the mother of Eudo's wife. I don't
believe this question has been resolved.
2. Concerning Maud de Porhoet, wife of Geoffrey de Fougeres
and mother of Raoul III de Fougeres, she appears to have
been herself more likely the daughter of Maud de Porhoet.
Bertha of Brittany's son Conan IV of Brittany (by her
first husband, Alan 'the Black') was born sometime before
1140, so it appears at the widest range that Bertha was
born no earlier than say 1114 (her parents married ca.
1113) and say 1125 at the latest. She died sometime
before 1167; if it was held that Maud de Porhoet was her
daughter, she would have been aged between say 33 at the
least, and 43 or more at the most, when Raoul III was
born (say 1200-1210). This seems unlikely.
A rough chart of the family relationships in these few
generations would, I think, look like this (conjectured links
shown thus: _ _ _ _ _ _ _) :
<1> <2>
Alan 'the = 1) Bertha = Eudo de = 2) NN de
Black ' I of Brittany I Porhoet I Leon
d. 1146 I d bef 1167 I d. ca. I
I I 1185 I
I I _ _ _ I _ _ _ _
I I I
Conan IV Eudo III Maud de
Duke of vicomte de Porhoet
Brittany Porhoet = Geoffrey
d. 1171/2 d. 1234 de Fougeres
= Margaret d. 1212
'of Huntingdon' I
I _____________I
V I
Raoul III
d. 24 Feb 1256/7
= Isabel de Craon
I
V
I be interested in your view (and the general view as well)
on the above.
Cheers,
John *
Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> Searching through various French sources this evening, I came across an
> agreement dated 7 November 1248 between Raoul III de Fougères,
> seigneur of Fougères, and his maternal aunts and their husbands,
> Pierre de Chemillé and Elienor his wife and Olivier de Montauban and
> Jeanne his wife, regarding the rights and possessions of each of them
> in the fief of Porhoët formerly held by "monseignor Eun le filz le
> Comte." [Reference: Louis Rosenzweig, Cartulaire général de
> Morbihan, 1 (1895): 223-225]. This record may be viewed online at the
> helpful gallica website at the following weblink:
>
> http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/CadresFenetre?O=NUMM-91425&M=notice&Y=Image
>
> Raoul III de Fougères involved in this document was the maternal
> grandfather of Joan (or Jeanne) de la Marche, wife of Sir Peter de
> Geneville (died 1292), of Ludlow, Shropshire, which Joan in turn was
> the mother of Joan de Geneville, wife of Sir Roger de Mortimer, 1st
> Earl of March.
>>>>>>>>>> Snip <<<<<<<<<<<<<
John P. Ravilious
Correction: where I wrote,
" In the SGM thread <Lusignan and Fougeres> from 1999, Oliver
Cocheril showed Eudo III as son of the second marriage,
to Herve, comte de Leon. "
Read,
" In the SGM thread <Lusignan and Fougeres> from 1999, Oliver
Cocheril showed Eudo III as son of the second marriage of
Eudo II of Porhoet to a daughter (unnamed)
of Herve, comte de Leon. "
The first version sounds like part of a scene from "Brokeback
Brittany"......
Cheers,
John
John P. Ravilious wrote:
> Sunday, 5 February, 2006
>
>
> Dear Doug,
>
> Thanks for that fine post concerning the Fougeres, la Zouche
> and related families. Especially for those additional relations
> named in the 1164 and 1248 charters/agreements, concerning whom
> additional research will be of interest (when time allows).
>
> The few quibbles I have are as follows:
>
> 1. Concerning 'Eun le filz le Comte', you wrote.
>
> ' Eudes son of the Count, or if you prefer Eudes Fitz
> Count, was the maternal grandfather of Raoul III
> de Fougères. He reportedly died in 1234. On his
> mother's side, Eudes Fitz Count was a great-grandson
> of King Henry I of England. '
<<<<<<<<<<<< Snip >>>>>>>>>>>>
Doug McDonald
> Hello Ian:
>
> If it wouldn't be too much of a chore, I wonder if the number of
> descents from Rohese Giffard for some other "American gateways" might be
> given?
>
> Speaking selfishly (!), how about the numbers for these ancestors of
> mine?:
>
> Elizabeth (Alsop) (Baldwin) Fowler (CT)
> William Asfordby (NY)
> Obadiah Bruen (CT/NJ)
> Jane (Deighton) (Lugg) Negus (MA)
> Alice (Freeman) (Thompson) Parke (CT)
> Edmund Kemp (VA)
> Roger Mallory (VA)
> John West (VA)
>
> Is there a way for the lay-person to enquire for such statistics on
> "Genealogics"?
>
> Many thanks.
>
>
Me too .... I'd like to see what you get for William Ironmonger
and the Rev. Robert Rose to Rohese. I have a computer program
that does this, but of course my file is not your file.
I get 177 for Rose and 4 for Ironmonger.
Doug McDonald
Diane Sheppard
Doug McDonald wrote:
> Not too vast to count, but too vast to mention. Remember that
> virtually "all of Scotland" descends from her, at least all
> of Scottish royalty. She is an ancestor of the Bruce.
>
>
> Doug McDonald
Dear Group,
I agree with Doug McDonald that Rohese has vast numbers of Scottish
descendants & that they are too numerous to mention.
My own ancestry contains 203 lines from Rohese: 21 from Maud
FitzRobert; 18 from Rohese and Eudo de Rie; and 164 from Gilbert
FitzRichard.
I descend from an immigrant to Quebec (Marie Martin who married
Christophe Fevrier) who has Noble/Royal ancestry through her Scottish &
English ancestry. Her ancestry is contained in a well written 15 page
article by Roland-Yves Gagne. The article has been the subject of vast
bandwidth on this forum, so I will not repeat the discussion here -
anyone interested can search for Monteth in the archives, but they
should read the article (in French) rather than simply jumping to
conclusions based on the discussions on this forum.
The only point of this post is the vast number of Rohese's Scottish
descendants, rather than whether or not one agrees with Gagne's
conclusions (I do agree with his conclusions). My own ancestry was
mentioned because I do not descend from one of the immigrants discussed
in Douglas Richardson's or Gary Boyd Robert's books & I did not want
one of the readers to jump to conclusions about her Amercian gateway
descendants.
Diane Sheppard
Doug McDonald
> Hi Tony and others interested,
>
> I have done a special extract from Genealogics for those gateway ancestors
> in the database nominated below. There is a lot of computation involved, so
> this is not a feature that could be provided online.
>
>
>>
>> William Asfordby (NY) =============== 163 lines over 20 - 26 gens.
>> Obadiah Bruen (CT/NJ)=============== 7 lines over 18 - 22 gens.
>> Jane (Deighton) (Lugg) Negus (MA)====== 58 lines over 19 - 24 gens.
>> Alice (Freeman) (Thompson) Parke (CT)=== 1 line in 22 gens.
>> Edmund Kemp (VA)
>> Roger Mallory (VA)================== 9 lines in 18 - 22 gens.
>> John West (VA)==================== 186 lines in 18 - 23 gens.
>>
I have a computer program that can do such calculations on your
own Gedcom file. It is slow for large files and can consume gigantic
amounts of memory. It gives a list of every person in the file who
is an ancestor of the "head" you specify, and how many times they
appear. Thus running it once gives you a complete list of ancestor
numbers, so it does not have to be run for each ancestor.
I can give it to people who want it, or in a few
cases I could run it on your Gedcom. (Thus, collectiong gedcoms!)
It's main purpose, however, is to draw genealogical trees where there
are lines connecting each repeat instance of a given person. These
of course are rats nests for a person with many medieval ancestors.
It will also generate a complete Ahnentafel for anybody in your file,
in a simple form.
Tim Powys-Lybbe has, for example, 1517 descents from Rohese Giffard
in his Gedcom. Robert the Bruce has 19 in my file, and Edward III only one
in my file. The person in my file from whom I descend the most is
Gerold I, Graf in Vintzgau with 4505 descents (father-in-law of Charlemagne.)
However, my file lacks a large number of continental Europeans present.
In my largest file I have James VI-I descended 148131 times from Count Gerold
as the most descents. It is likely that most people will have this person
as the one with the most descents.
Doug McDonald
Douglas Richardson
Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.
Regardiing your proposed chronology, I should note that there is a good
pedigree of the Fougères family in the archives which was prepared by
Laurent Ohier. His source of information for this pedigree was the
standard Histoire de Fougères by Maupillé, which source is not
available to me here in Salt Lake City.
According to Mr. Ohier's Fougères pedigree, Raoul III de Fougères was
born in 1207. This date would agree with my file notes which indicate
that Raoul III's parents, Geoffrey de Fougères and Mahaut daughter of
Eudes Fitz Count, were married in 1204.
While you're correct that the 1248 agreement dividing Eudes Fitz
Count's possessions does not state Eudes Fitz Count was the grandfather
of Raoul III de Fougères, the chronology would seem to favor this
arrangement.
My file notes indicate that Eudes Fitz Count's father, Eudes, Count of
Brittany, was still married to Bertha of Brittany in 1162, and that he
died in 1170. If that information is correct, then Count Eudes can
only have had his second marriage to a Miss Léon between 1162 and
1170. If correct, then Count Eudes would not be the father of Maud,
wife of Geoffrey de Fougères, who married in 1204.
However, checking your post, I see that you state that Count Eudes died
about 1185, not 1170. If so, then it is still pressing the chronology
a bit for Maud, wife of Geoffrey de Fougères, to be his daughter by
his 2nd marriage. All the same, I think it would do us well to nail
down a better death date for Count Eudes.
Regarding the identity of the 2nd wife of Count Eudes, in your post you
state that she was the daughter of Count Hervé de Léon. However,
Complete Peerage identifies Count Eudes' 2nd wife as the daughter of
Guiomar, son of Hervey, Vicomte of Leon [Reference: Complete Peerage,
10 (1945): 701, footnote c, citing as its source Robert de Torigny,
Rolls Ser., pg. 232]. I believe that a copy of Robert of Torigny is
online through gallica should you wish to consult it. Complete Peerage
states that according to Torigny, Count Eudes and Miss de Léon were
married in or before 1167. Unfortunately Complete Peerage gives no
particulars regarding Count Eudes' death date, nor any information
regarding any of his children, including Eudes Fitz Count.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry.net
John P. Ravilious
Whilst busy counting Counts in your (or our) ancestry, there are a
few Alemanni to add to your list of individuals to vote for "Most
Likely to Be in my AT". Following is a pedigree giving the ancestry of
Count Gerold's wife, and also the identity of their children. Those of
primary genealogical interest were (A) Hildegarde, wife of Charlemagne,
and (B) Adrian, grandfather of Robert 'the Strong' and ancestor,
thereby, of the Capetians & c.).
Cheers,
John
1 Gottfried ' dux '
----------------------------------------
Death: 0709[1]
Occ: duke of the Alemanni
rebelled against Merovingian rule (under Pepin II of Heristal):
" At that time, the duke of the Alemans, Gottfried, and the other
dukes
refused to obey the Frankish dukes, since they could no longer serve
the Merovingian king as they had been wont to do formerly. They
therefore kept away. " [Riche, p. 31, citing contemporary source[1] ]
Thegan, Bishop of Trier wrote:
" Duke Godfrey begat Loching, who begat Nebi; Nebi begat
Emma, who begat the most blessed Queen Hildegard. "
[Dutton p. 141, cites Thegan's Life of Louis, 2[2] ]
Children: Loching (-0727)
Odilon
Liutfrid
1.1 Loching 'filius Godfrey''
----------------------------------------
Death: 0727[3]
duke of the Alemanni
Thegan, Bishop of Trier wrote:
" Duke Godfrey begat Loching, who begat Nebi; Nebi begat
Emma, who begat the most blessed Queen Hildegard. "
[Dutton p. 141, cites Thegan's Life of Louis, 2[2] ]
Genealogics #I00220717[3]
Children: Nebi (-<0775)
1.1.1 Nebi 'filius Loching'
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 0775[4]
duke of the Alemanni
Thegan, Bishop of Trier wrote:
" Duke Godfrey begat Loching, who begat Nebi; Nebi begat
Emma, who begat the most blessed Queen Hildegard. "
[Dutton p. 141, cites Thegan's Life of Louis, 2[2] ]
cf. Settipani, pp. 9-10[4]
Genealogics # I00220719[3]
Spouse: Hersuinde
Children: Emma
Ruadpert
1.1.1.1 Emma 'filia Nebi'
----------------------------------------
Thegan, Bishop of Trier wrote:
" Duke Godfrey begat Loching, who begat Nebi; Nebi begat
Emma, who begat the most blessed Queen Hildegard. "
[Dutton p. 141, cites Thegan's Life of Louis, 2[2] ]
cf. Settipani, pp. 9-10[4]
Spouse: Gerold 'comes'
Children: Hildegarde (ca0759-0783)
Gerold 'comes' (-0799)
Megingoz
Odalric
Odon
Adrian
1.1.1.1.1 Hildegarde
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 0759[2]
Death: 30 Apr 0783[2],[5]
2nd wife of Charlemagne
' a woman of high birth, and of Swabian origin ' [Einhard 18, as
cited by Dutton[2];[1]]
Thegan, Bishop of Trier wrote:
"Hildegardem ... de cognatione Gotefrridi ducis Alamannorum.
Gotefridus genuit Huochingum, Huochingus genuit Nebi, Nebe
genuit Imma; Immam vero genuit Hiltigartem ..."
{Trans: " Duke Godfrey begat Loching, who begat Nebi; Nebi
begat Emma, who begat the most blessed Queen Hildegard. "}
[Dutton p. 141, cites Thegan's Life of Louis, 2[2] ]
Spouse: Charles 'the Great' (Charlemagne)
Birth: 2 Apr 0748[1],[6]
Death: 28 Jan 0813, Aachen[1],[6]
Father: Pepin III 'the Short', King of the Franks (ca0714-0768)
Mother: Bertha of Laon (-0783)
Marr: bef 30 Apr 0771[5]
Children: Charles (ca0773-0811)
Adalhaid (<0774-<0774)
Rotrude (0775-0810)
Pepin (<0777-0810)
Louis 'the Pious' (0778-0840)
Lothar (0778-ca0780)
Bertha (ca0779->0823)
Gisela (<0781->0814)
Hildegard (0782-ca0783)
1.1.1.1.2 Gerold 'comes'
----------------------------------------
Death: 0799, killed in Avar revolt[1]
count in Bavaria
governor [praefectus] of Bavaria after the deposition of Tassilo,
788 [Riche p. 93, 102[1]]
leader of the Danubian flotilla in the campaign against the Avars, 791
1.1.1.1.3 Megingoz
----------------------------------------
1.1.1.1.4 Odalric
----------------------------------------
1.1.1.1.5 Odon
----------------------------------------
1.1.1.1.6 Adrian
----------------------------------------
maternal grandfather of Robert 'the Strong' [Settipani, 'Ancestors
of Charlemagne (Addenda)', p. 8[4]]
Children: NN
1. Pierre Riche (trans. by Michael I. Allen), "The Carolingians,"
Philadelphia: Univ. of Pennsylvania Press, 1993.
2. Paul Edward Dutton, ed., "Carolingian Civilization: A Reader,"
Peterborough, Canada: Broadview Press, 1993 (reprinted 1999).
3. "Genealogics," website by Leo van de Pas,
http://www.genealogics.com
cites Europäische Stammtafeln, J.A. Stargardt Verlag Marburg.,
Detlev Schwennicke, Editor, [ES], and other sources
4. Christian Settipani, "The Ancestors of Charlemagne (Addenda)," 1990,
paper copy: library of John Ravilious, URL
http://www.rootsweb.com/~medieval/charladdend.htm
5. Detlev Schewennicke, "Europäische Stammtafeln: Neue Folge,"
[ " European Family Trees: Family Trees for the History of
European States, New Series " ], Frankfurt am Main: Vittorio
Klostermann, 1998 [4th series], Band I.1 [Tafel 3 - Die
Arnulfinger -751-771 Konige der Franken ], First series by
Wilhelm Karl, Prinz zu Isenburg, continued second series by
Frank, Baron Freytag von Loringhoven.
6. Stewart Baldwin, "Re: Oldest male line?," Oct 24, 1996,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com, cites Christian Settipani, La
Prehistoire des Capetiens (1993), (descent of the counts of
Chiny from the counts of Vermandois).
John P. Ravilious
Thanks for that post.
If this lineage can be established as solid, that will be nice
indeed (we all need more descents from Henry I, after all). I think I
tried to access the Histoire de Fougeres at the LOC previously and
found it was not held there, but will try this out again.
Cheers,
John
Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Dear John ~
>
> Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.
>
> Regardiing your proposed chronology, I should note that there is a good
> pedigree of the Fougères family in the archives which was prepared by
> Laurent Ohier. His source of information for this pedigree was the
> standard Histoire de Fougères by Maupillé, which source is not
> available to me here in Salt Lake City.
>
> According to Mr. Ohier's Fougères pedigree, Raoul III de Fougères was
> born in 1207. This date would agree with my file notes which indicate
> that Raoul III's parents, Geoffrey de Fougères and Mahaut daughter of
> Eudes Fitz Count, were married in 1204.
<<<<<<<<<<< snip >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Jwc...@aol.com
I have at least
one line apiece for Samuel Appleton and his wife Judith Everard and one for
James Cudworth
1 Rohese de Giffard married Richard Fitzgilbert, Lord of Clare
2 Gilbert Fitzrichard, Lord of Clare married Adeliz de Clermont
3 Richard FitzGilbert de Clare, Lord of Clare married Adeliz of Chester
4 Roger de Clare, Earl of Clare and Hertford married Maud de St Hilary
5 Avelina de Clare married as 2nd wife Geoffrey Fitzpeter, Earl of Essex
6 Hawise Fitzgeoffrey dead by 1243 married Sir Reynold de Mohun, Kt. , Lord
of Dunster, Somerset d 1258
7 Alice de Mohun d bet 1282-84 married Sir Robert Beauchamp, Kt. , Lord of
Hache, Somerset dead by 1266
8 Sir Humphrey Beauchamp, Kt., Lord of Ryme, Dorset dead 1317 married Sibyl
Oliver divorced 1287- 1290
9 Sir Hugh Beauchamp, Kt. of Lillesden d 1337 married Idonea de Lisle of
Chaffcombe
10 Sir John Beauchamp, kt. alive 1396 of Lillesden married Joan de Bridport
11 Joan Beauchamp died bet 1381-88 married bef 1378 Thomas Biddlesgate of
Knightseton, Devon
12 Joan Biddlesgate alive 1448 married 1403 Richard Wydville ,of the Mote d
1441
13 Joan Wydville married 1429 (2nd wife) William Hawte, Esq of Bishopsbourne,
York
14 Sir William Hawte, Kt. KB of Bishopsbourne, York alive 1473 married Joan
Horne
15 Sir Thomas Hawte, Kt. KB, of Bishopsbourne d1502 married Isabel Frowick
16 Margery Hawte d 1540 married 1st William Isaacke dead by 1518
16 Jane Hawte married Robert Wrothe
17 Edward Isaacke d 1572/3 married 1544 Margery Whetehill
17 Dorothy Wroth married Edward (III) Lewknor
18 Mary Issacke (will) 1612 married about 1568 Thomas Appleton d 1603
18 Mary Lewknor married Matthew Machell
19 Samuel Appleton bp 1586- d 1670, Rowley, MA married 1616 Judith Everard
19 Mary Machell married Ralph Cudworth
20 James Cudworth married Mary Parker
2 Robert Fitzrichard, Lord of Little Dunmow, Essex d 1134 married Maud de St
Liz, half sister of Heny de Scotia, Earl of Huntingdon, King Designate of
Scotland; She married 2nd Saher de Quincy , grandmother of Saher iV de Quincy MCS
and 1st Earl of Winchester
3 Walter Fitzrobert,d 1198 , Lord of Little Dunmow married 1st Maud de Bohun,
2nd Maud de Lucy
4 (by 2) Alice Fitzwalter (sister of Robert, leader of MC barons) married
Gilbert Pecche
5 Hamon Pecche married Eve NN
6 Gilbert Pecche married Joan de Creye
7 Gilbert Pecche, 1st Lord Pecche married Iseult NN
8 Sir Simon Pecche, Kt. married Agnes Holme
9 Margaret Pecche married John Hunt
10 Iodena Hunt married Thomas Cornish
11 John Cornish married NN
12 John Cornish married Agnes Walden
13 Mary Cornish married Thomas Everard
14 Henry Everard married NN
15 Thomas Everard married Margaret Wiseman
16 John Everard married Judith Bourne
17 Judith Everard married Samuel Appleton
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
Sources 1-5 Carl Boyer 3rd Medieval English Ancestors of Certain Americans
(MEACA)pp 51-54, 2-8 AR 7 246 B (contributed by Douglas Richardson), 7-19
NEHGR 147:Pages 3-10
Appleton article by Charles Hansen, 17-20 James Cudworth ancestry by Paul
Reed see especially GBR RD 600, see also WGD Ancestry of Mary Isaac. For Judith
Everard see Boyer MEACA pp 51-52, RD 500 p 459, also of interest In
Hayden`s Book of Dignities 1894 p 757 indicates that Wm Hawte was made a Knight
Companion of the Order of the Bath at the Coronation on May 26, 1464 of Elizabeth
(Widville), as Queen of Edward IV of England and that p 759 Thomas Hawte was
made a knight Companion of the Bath at the marriage of Arthur Tudor, Prince of
Wales to Katherine of Aragon on November 17, 1501.
Robin Haigh
"John P. Ravilious" <the...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1139167278....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Whilst busy counting Counts in your (or our) ancestry, there are a
> few Alemanni to add to your list of individuals to vote for "Most
> Likely to Be in my AT". Following is a pedigree giving the ancestry of
> Count Gerold's wife, and also the identity of their children. Those of
> primary genealogical interest were (A) Hildegarde, wife of Charlemagne,
> and (B) Adrian, grandfather of Robert 'the Strong' and ancestor,
> thereby, of the Capetians & c.).
>
> [Alemanni snipped]
I've got old printouts from Genealogics which show my descent from Winithar
King of the Ostrogoths and Walia King of the Visigoths.
Looking at the site now, this line is no longer continuous (don't you hate
it when this happens?) The parentage of "Nebi-Huoching", aka Loching, has
been demoted to just a "possibly" in a note.
What gives exactly? Is his father (Gottfried) disputed? Or do we know his
father, but not his mother?
--
RSH
Ian Fettes
Genealogics shows 252 lines to Robert Rose over 22 - 29 generations, and
currently no links to William ironmonger.
Cheers,
Ian
>
> Me too .... I'd like to see what you get for William Ironmonger
> and the Rev. Robert Rose to Rohese. I have a computer program
> that does this, but of course my file is not your file.
>
> I get 177 for Rose and 4 for Ironmonger.
>
> Doug McDonald
>
> ______________________________
W David Samuelsen
<http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2006-02/1139084053>
I have at least 92 descents from her just to Robert Abell, my 9th
greatgrandfather on my mother's side and I haven't even begin to count
if any from Thomas Ligon/Mary Harris my 10th great grandfather on
father's side.
of 7 children, I have 5 of them to be my ggparents.
David Samuelsen
mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk
Thanks for the proof that Ralph de Fougeres married Avice- I had seen
her name given as Avoise and Avoye, 'frenchified' versions of the name;
I don't know why the DNB didn't name her. Jim Weber quotes CP re: the
'other' Avice, which doubts her connection (the wife of Robert de
Stafford). The 'other' Rohese (m. Ralph de Tellieres) seems dubious,
too, so it looks like the DNB was right to omit them.
Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Dear Matthew ~
>
> I've noted your statement that the ODNB states that Rohese Giffard had
> a daughter who married Ralph de Fougères. I've researched the
> Fougères family in French sources and have found charter evidence
> which indicates that the wife of Raoul I, seigneur of Fougères in
> Brittany, was named Avice (Latin form: Avicia or Avitia).
(snip)
> mvernonconnolly wrote:
> < FWIW, the new ODNB gives various different family details. For
> Rohese's
> > daughters, it omits Avice (de Stafford) and Rohais (de Tellieres);
> < includes Rohese (de Rye), but not the Dammartin marriage, and the
> < daughter (not named) said to have married Ralph de Fougeres and had 3
> < sons; and adds an Adeliza, married to Walter Tirel of Poix. Another
> < child missing from Jim's list is Walter, founder of Tintern Abbey.
Fast-forwarding to Richard, 3rd Earl of Hertford (d.1217), he had a
daughter who married Rhys Gryg, son of the Lord Rhys, in 1219. Rhys
Gryg had many children, with plenty of lines to today, but also several
partners, and I don't know of proof that the de Clare bride was mother
to any continuous descents, i.e. those through Philip ap Rhys Gryg. The
DNB wonders if she might have been mother to Maredudd ap Rhys Gryg
(d.1271), lord of Dryslwyn, although Bartrum gives his mother as
Gwenllian ferch Elidir ab Owain.
Matthew
Tim Powys-Lybbe
> Thanks for the proof that Ralph de Fougeres married Avice- I had seen
> her name given as Avoise and Avoye, 'frenchified' versions of the name;
> I don't know why the DNB didn't name her. Jim Weber quotes CP re: the
> 'other' Avice, which doubts her connection (the wife of Robert de
> Stafford). The 'other' Rohese (m. Ralph de Tellieres) seems dubious,
> too, so it looks like the DNB was right to omit them.
Aalph and Avice as husband and wife can also be found in Keats-Rohan's
DP 332 and DD 461.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
Douglas Richardson
Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
< Aalph and Avice as husband and wife can also be found in
Keats-Rohan's
< DP 332 and DD 461.
<
< Tim Powys-Lybbe
t...@powys.org
I think Tim meant to say that Ralph de Fougeres and Avice his wife
appear in Keats-Rohan DP. So what does Keats-Rohan say specifically
about this couple?
DR
Steve Barnhoorn
http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/Visualiseur?Destination=Gallica&O=NUMM-91413
Hopefully the link will work.
Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> The authoritative Complete Peerage, 2 (1912): 386-387 (sub Buckingham)
> has a good account of the life history of Walter Giffard (died 1102),
> 1st Earl of Buckingham, which individual was a near kinsman of King
> William the Conqueror. While Earl Walter Giffard has no modern
> descendants, most newsgroup members are in fact descended from his
> sister, Rohese Giffard, who is the ancestress of the later baronial
> Clare family.
>
> Regarding Walter Giffard's marriage, Complete Peerage has the following
> to say:
>
> "He married Agnes, sister of Anselm de Ribemont. He [Walter] died 15
> July 1102, in England, and was buried at Longueville, in Normandy.
> M.I." END OF QUOTE
>
> As we can see, no information is provided regarding his wife, Agnes,
> regarding her death date or her activities following her husband's
> death.
>
> The charter below is taken from the book, Cartulaire de l'Abbaye de
> Conques en Rouergue, published by Gustave Desjardins in 1879. The
> charter is dated after 1107, and was issued by Earl Walter Giffard the
> younger and his mother, Agnes. Thus it appears that Agnes, wife of the
> senior Walter, survived his death and was living as late as 1107. By
> this charter, the younger Earl Walter conveyed the tithe [decimam] in
> Taverham, Norfolk to Conques Abbey. As an aside, I should note that
> the charter is witnessed by various military tenants of Earl Walter
> Giffard the younger, including Eustache and Robert de Grenville. The
> Grenville family has numerous modern descendants in England.
>
> pg. 359:
>
> "497. [DE TAUREHAM.] Après 1107.
>
> Quadragesimali tempore, ebdomada secunda, feria VI, venit comes
> Galterus, cognomento Gifardus, Conchas ad sanctam Fidem et mater ejus
> Agnes, ibique in præsentia domni Bonefacii abbatis et omnium fratrum,
> pro salute sua patrumque suorum et omnium parentum, dederunt omnem
> decimam suam quam habebant apud Thaureham ut fratres de Horsam qui sunt
> monachi sanctæ Fidis illam teneant et inde abbati respondeant. Testes
> sunt: Antelmus de Pothuilla, Rogerus de sancto Laurentio, Thebaldus de
> Espolvilla, Rotbertus del Bec, Gislebertus de Pothuilla, Eustachius de
> Grandivilla, Rogerus de Berrevilla, Willelmo de Nova Villa, Engerrannus
> de Belnai, Odo de Trobetvilla, Eustachius de Chrichetoth, Rotbertus et
> Bencio capellani, item Rotbertus de Graneville, Malgerus et alii
> clientes, Frahissendis de Granevilla mater Eustachii, Beatrix uxor
> Thebaldi, idem Beatrix et ceteri, et omnes sunt testes hujus rei, et
> ejusdem monasterii confratres." END OF QUOITE.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson,. Salt Lake City, Utah
>
> Website: www.royalancestry.net
W David Samuelsen
greatgrandfather on my mother's side and I haven't even begin to count
if any from Thomas Ligon/Mary Harris my 10th great grandfather on
father's side.
of 7 children, I have 5 of them to be my x-ggparents.
W. David Samuelsen
WJho...@aol.com
writes:
<< I have at least 92 descents from her just to Robert Abell, my 9th
greatgrandfather on my mother's side and I haven't even begin to count
if any from Thomas Ligon/Mary Harris my 10th great grandfather on
father's side. >>
Since Rohese is ancestral to James Claypool the immigrant and also to the
immigrant Marie Martin, she is going to be ancestral to quite a large number of
US and Canadian people.
Will Johnson
CED
Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Dear John ~
>
> husband of Bertha of Brittany and step-father of Conan IV, Duke of
> Brittany), I note that the Breton historian Morice does not provide a
> death date for him in his pedigree chart on the Porhoet family in his
> work, Histoire Ecclesiastique et Civil de Bretagne, 1 (1750): xx-xxi.
> He does indicate that Eudes had the titles of Count of Porhoet and
> Vicomte of Rennes. However, so far in the charters I have seen for
> Count/Duke Eudes, he is styled either Count Eudes, Eudes Count of
> Brittany, or Eudes Duke of Brittany, with no mention of Porhoet or
> Rennes. If anyone knows of any contemporary evidence that this Eudes
> was known as Count of Porhoet or Vicomte of Rennes, I'd very much like
> to know about it.
>
> Regarding the death date of Count/Duke Eudes, I previously indicated
> that my files gave a death date for him for 1170, whereas you had about
> 1185. Count/Duke Eudes is surely the Count Eudes who appears on a list
> of the major barons of Brittany issued in 1185 by Geoffrey Plantagenet,
> Duke of Brittany [see Morice, Morice Memoires pour Servir de Preuves a
> l'Hist. de Bretagne, 1 (1742): 706-707].
To the Newsgroup:
Can Richardson inform us as to whether his source describes the duke of
Brittiany who "issued" a list of "major barons" in 1185, names that
duke "Geoffrey Plantagenet"? If so, that would be a major discovery;
for it would the first instance of an inherited surname's being used by
the duke's family before Richard, duke of York, did so in the 15th
Century.
If the source did not use the surname, why would Richarson insert it?
We see that surname used in many places on the internet, which is
excusable when most database programs operate well only with the use of
surnames. But for a 'trained' genealogist to insert that particular
surname unnecessarily (as it is in this case) is to demonstrate either
ignorance or carelessness. It could mislead those on the list who are
less well informed.
CED
> Thus, it appears that
> Count/Duke Eudes was living in 1185. He was presumably dead before
> 1195, as I note that his son, Eudes Fitz Count, together with his
> brother, Henri, witnessed a charter for Alain III, Vicomte of Rohan
> (husband of Constance of Brittany) to Bonrepos Abbey [Reference:
> Morice, Memoires pour Servir de Preuves a l'Hist. de Bretagne, 1
> (1742): 698]. This charter dates sometime before Alain III's death,
> which I show took place in 1195. Elsewhere, I find that Eudes Fitz
> Count (son and heir of Count/Duke Eudes) issued a charter to the monks
> of St. Jagu in 1201 [Reference: Morice, Memoires pour Servir de Preuves
> a l'Hist. de Bretagne, 1 (1742): 793]. Taking these records
> together, it appears that Count/Duke Eudes was living in 1185, was
> presumably dead before 1195, and certainly dead before 1201. He
> presumably had his two surviving sons, Eudes Fitz Count and his
> brother, Henri, by his 2nd marriage to _____ de Leon.
>
> Regarding Count/Duke Eudes' son and heir, Eudes Fitz Count, I find him
> consistently in charters throughout his entire life as Eudes Fitz
> Count. He is never associated with any title. Yet, Morice's pedigree
> chart of this family which is cited above states he was Count of
> Porhoet, Vicomte of Rennes just like his father. If this is so, the
> contemporary charters do not at all bear this out. He is not called
> count in any of the numerous documents regarding the division of his
> estates, but his father is always so styled. He is likewise never
> associated with a surname, Porhoet, although I find modern editors
> assign this surname to him and his children.
>
> So, we have some answers, but more questions have popped up. Also,
> problems with nomenclature have popped up, which is typical. Shades of
> Henriette Marie!
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
> Website: wwww.royalancestry.net
CED
Douglas Richardson wrote:
> CED wrote:
>
> < It could mislead those on the list who are less well informed.
>
> <CED
>
>
> DR
To the Newsgroup:
A snide remark is of no consequence.
Richardson does not inform us of whether is source used the term
"Geoffrey Plantagenet" or he chose to insert it into his reference to
his source. This question goes to the heart of Richardson's
credibility and his use of sources. Does he interpret his sources as
they stand or does he insert matter foreign to the source? If he does
not explain his methods on such little matters, then how can he be
trusted in any of his use of sources?
CED
CED
Douglas Richardson wrote:
> CED wrote:
> < Douglas Richardson wrote:
> < > CED wrote:
> < >
> < > < It could mislead those on the list who are less well informed.
> < >
> < > <CED
> < >
> < > Such as ... yourself?
> < >
> < > DR
> <
> < To the Newsgroup:
> <
> < A snide remark is of no consequence.
>
>
To the Newsgroup:
Apparently Richardson has no regard for his credibility in the use of
sources. He would rather comment on a matter about which he has no
knowledge. Where is his much touted, self-pronounced reputation as a
'trained' genealogist and historian? Even undergraduate history majors
are taught how to use, and make reference to, sources. How can we
trust any of his refences to sources if he cannot explain this
reference to Plantagenet? Could it be that he inserted it in ignorance
of its first use as an inherited surname in that family? Ignorance can
be excused; but an purposeful insertion in a reference is
unprofessional.
CED
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
> Website: www.royalancestry.net
Ian Fettes
Following this recent topic, I prepared a special output for Genealogics
data to display in a compact format all the lines between two nominated
people. An example for the lines from Jane Deighton to Rohese display as
follows:
58 paths from Jane Deighton to Rohese Giffard
Gen AT No Ancestral path
19 516817 S MM MMMF FFMF MMFM FFFM
19 516865 S MM MMMF FFMM FFFF FFFM
19 516913 S MM MMMF FFMM FFMM FFFM
20 983537 S MMM FFFF FFFM MMMM FFFM
20 1032689 S MMM MMFF FFFM MMMM FFFM
20 1032817 S MMM MMFF FFMF FMMM FFFM
20 1033037 S MMM MMFF FFMM FMFF MMFM
20 1033629 S MMM MMFF FMFM MFFM MMFM
20 1033677 S MMM MMFF FMFM MMFF MMFM
20 1033713 S MMM MMFF FMFM MMMM FFFM
20 1034179 S MMM MMFF FMMM MMFF FFMM
20 1034669 S MMM MMFF MFFM MFMF MMFM
20 1036417 S MMM MMFM FFFF MFFF FFFM
20 1036465 S MMM MMFM FFFF MFMM FFFM
20 1037265 S MMM MMFM FFMM MMFM FFFM
20 1038641 S MMM MMFM MFFM FFMM FFFM
20 1038725 S MMM MMFM MFFM MFFF FMFM
20 1039313 S MMM MMFM MFMM MMFM FFFM
20 1039473 S MMM MMFM MMFF FMMM FFFM
20 1039523 S MMM MMFM MMFF MFMF FFMM
20 1039811 S MMM MMFM MMFM MMFF FFMM
20 1040129 S MMM MMFM MMMM FFFF FFFM
20 1040177 S MMM MMFM MMMM FFMM FFFM
21 1876209 S MMFF MFMF FFFF MMMM FFFM
21 1877761 S MMFF MFMF FMMM FFFF FFFM
21 1877809 S MMFF MFMF FMMM FFMM FFFM
21 1878225 S MMFF MFMF MFFF MMFM FFFM
21 1878273 S MMFF MFMF MFFM FFFF FFFM
21 1878321 S MMFF MFMF MFFM FFMM FFFM
21 2065699 S MMMM MFFF FMFM FFMF FFMM
21 2066125 S MMMM MFFF FMMF MMFF MMFM
21 2066161 S MMMM MFFF FMMF MMMM FFFM
21 2069489 S MMMM MFFM FFMM MMMM FFFM
21 2073121 S MMMM MFMF FFMF FFMF FFFM
21 2074525 S MMMM MFMF FMMM MFFM MMFM
21 2074573 S MMMM MFMF FMMM MMFF MMFM
21 2074609 S MMMM MFMF FMMM MMMM FFFM
21 2075377 S MMMM MFMF MFMF MMMM FFFM
21 2076913 S MMMM MFMM FFFF MMMM FFFM
21 2078621 S MMMM MFMM FMMM MFFM MMFM
21 2078669 S MMMM MFMM FMMM MMFF MMFM
21 2078705 S MMMM MFMM FMMM MMMM FFFM
22 3755377 S M MFFM FMFF MMFM FMMM FFFM
22 3755971 S M MFFM FMFF MMMM MMFF FFMM
22 3756445 S M MFFM FMFM FFFM MFFM MMFM
22 3756493 S M MFFM FMFM FFFM MMFF MMFM
22 3756529 S M MFFM FMFM FFFM MMMM FFFM
22 3756995 S M MFFM FMFM FFMM MMFF FFMM
22 3758669 S M MFFM FMFM MFMF FMFF MMFM
22 3758833 S M MFFM FMFM MFMF MMMM FFFM
22 3758961 S M MFFM FMFM MFMM FMMM FFFM
22 3759393 S M MFFM FMFM MMFM FFMF FFFM
22 4157533 S M MMMM FMMM FFFF FMFM MMFM
23 7504477 S MM FFMF MFFF FFMF FMFM MMFM
23 7517389 S MM FFMF MFMM FMFF MMFF MMFM
23 7517425 S MM FFMF MFMM FMFF MMMM FFFM
23 7517987 S MM FFMF MFMM FMMM FFMF FFMM
24 15034973 S MMF FMFM FMMF MFMF FMFM MMFM
The interpretation of this is that S is the subject, M is the mother and F
is the father. Using this data, one can easily run through both one's own
genealogy database to see where lines fail from the subject, then do a
comparison with Genealogics to pick up the new people. This option is not
available on the website due to the computational load.
I do not mind doing a *few* of these extracts for people from time to time
if it is of general interest to the group and on topic.
Cheers,
Ian
Tony Hoskins
Thanks so much on the info on the 58 descents you count from Rohese
Giffard to my 9 greats grandmother Jane Deighton. Amazing. And, that
number is very likely lots higher when you include Jane Dieghton's
almost certain descent form Henry Cardinal Beaufort. Again, many
thanks.
Tony
>>> "Ian Fettes" <fet...@st.net.au> 02/09/06 02:42AM >>>
Douglas Richardson
Thanks for posting the various "paths" of descent from Rohese Giffard
down to Jane Deighton. It was most interesting.
Douglas Richardson
> I come down from three of her children - Rohese de Clare, Eudes de
> Dammartin, Aubri I de Dammartin, Aubri II de Dammartin, Agnes de Dammartin,
> Enguerrand de Fiennes, Sir William III de Fiennes, Margaret de Fiennes,
> Roger IV de Mortimer, Catherine de Mortimer, Maud de Beauchamp, Catherine de
> Clifford, Maud de Greystoke, Lionel Welles, Eleanor Welles, Ann Hoo,
> Margaret Copley, Edward Lewknor, Mary Lewknor, Mary Machell, James Cudworth
> etc.
Dear Newsgroup ~
Merilyn Pedrick has kindly displayed a descent above from Rohese
Giffard through the Counts of Dammartin and the Fiennes family.
My files show that Rohese Giffard's daughter, Rohese, married Eudes the
Steward (often called Eudo Dapifer), by whom she has descendents.
However, I don't show a second marriage for Rohese, widow of Eudes the
Steward, to Hugues I de Montdidier, Count of Dammartin.
Does anyone know the evidence for the Dammartin marriage?
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry.net
I don't have any marriage for Rohese to
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: Douglas Richardson
> Date: 02/03/06 07:49:59
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Descendants of Rohese Giffard
>
> Dear John ~
>
> Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.
>
> As I stated, Rohese Giffard is in the ancestry of most newsgroup
> posters. Her descendants are simply legion. For those interested in
> seeing if they possess a descent from Rohese Giffard, they may view a
> listing of her descendants for 10 generations at Jim Weber's great
> website at the following weblink:
>
> http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=DESC&db=jweber&id=I01761
>
> I have at least four descents from Rohese Giffard myself, two through
> Isabel de Clare, wife of William Marshal, Earl of Pembroke; one through
> Gilbert de Clare, Earl of Gloucester & Hertford (1st husband of Joan of
> Acre); and one through Aveline de Clare, wife of Geoffrey Fitz Peter,
> Earl of Essex.
>
> Perhaps as individual posters have time, they can share their descents
> from Rohese Giffard, and we can discuss problem areas. Also, we can
> forward any corrections and additions onto Jim Weber, who always
> appreciates help from fellow genealogists.
WJho...@aol.com
royala...@msn.com writes:
<< My files show that Rohese Giffard's daughter, Rohese, married Eudes the
Steward (often called Eudo Dapifer), by whom she has descendents.
However, I don't show a second marriage for Rohese, widow of Eudes the
Steward, to Hugues I de Montdidier, Count of Dammartin. >>
This would have to be a first marriage.
Leo is showing the Hugh died abt 1100 and Rohese in 1121
And their son Hugh also Bef 25 Feb 1084
Which.... hmm that doesn't make any sense.
Maybe the one who d Bef 25 Feb 1084 is the father of the one who d 1100 ...
Will Johnson
U...@aol.com
In a message dated 2/9/06 11:17:05 AM Central Standard Time,
hos...@sonoma.lib.ca.us writes:
Hello Ian,
Tony
I also want to express my appreciation to Ian for his ability to show the 58
descents from Rohese to Jane. I checked my database and was surprised to
find I had 39 of the descents. Most of my misses were caused by not having the
parentage of Aubrey de Mello or Maud, wife of Hugh de Boclande.
Your offer to do this analysis occasionally is appreciated and I look
forward to the next report. Thanks again Ian.
Always optimistic--Dave
Jwc...@aol.com
Another probable link between Rohese de Giffard,
wife of Richard Fitzgilbert de Clare and the sisters Jane , Frances, and
Katherine Deighton through their son Gilbert Fitzrichard, Lord of Clare and Adeliz of
Clermont, Gilbert Fitzgilbert, 1st Earl of Pembroke and Isabel de Beaumont,
Richard "Strongbow" de Clare, 2nd Earl of Pembroke and Eva of Leinster, Isabel
de Clare and William Marshal, jure Uxoris Earl of Pembroke, Isabel Marshal
(note that the Deightons also descended from three of her four sisters Maud,
Sibyl and Eva) and her husband Gilbert de Clare, Earl of Clare and Hertford ,
MCS, Isabel de Clare married Robert de Brus, Lord of Annandale, Mary (quite
probably Brus and so Aunt of Robert I, King of Scots) married Ralph VII de Toeni,
Lord of Flamstead (which identification was put forward by Douglas Richardson
and supported and amplified on this list by John Ravilious) Alice de Toeni
married Guy, 10th Earl of Warwick, Maud Beauchamp m Geoffrey de Say, Lord Say,
Idoine de Say married John de Clinton, Lord Clinton, Margaret de Clinton married
Baldwin de Montfort, Kt, William Montfort, Kt. married Margaret Pecche, Ellen
Montfort married Maurice Berkeley, Kt of Stoke Giffard and Uley, Gloucester,
William Berkeley, Kt of Stoke Giffard and Uley, KB married Anne Stafford (of
Grafton), Richard Berkeley, Kt of Stoke Giffard and Uley married Elizabeth
Coningsby, John Berkeley, Kt. of Stoke Giffard and Uley married Isabel Dennis,
Elizabeth Berkeley married Henry Ligon, Gentleman, Elizabeth Ligon married
Edward Basset, Gentleman, Jane Basset married John Deighton, Gentleman, daughters
Jane Deighton, wife of John Lugg and Jonathan Negus, Katherine Deighton, wife
of Samuel Hackburne, Governor Thomas Dudley and Reverend John Allin and
Frances Deighton, wife of Richard Williams
(sources SGM Rohese de Giffard posts, MCA subjects Beauchamp, Say, Clinton,
Montfort and Deighton)
WJho...@aol.com
writes:
<< Isabel de Clare married Robert de Brus, Lord of Annandale, Mary (quite
probably Brus and so Aunt of Robert I, King of Scots) married Ralph VII de
Toeni, >>
What's the source for this "probable" connection?
Thanks
Will Johnson
Douglas Richardson
The parentage of Maud, wife successively of Peter de Ludgershall (alias
Peter the Forester), of Cherhill, Wiltshire, and Hugh de Buckland (died
c. 1185), of Buckland near Faringdon, Berkshire, is unknown. Thus, she
is not a proven descendant of Rohese Giffard.
Jwc...@aol.com
I checked the archives for the thread Mary ( ) de Toeni and
discovered only one post dated 25 January 2005 at 21:15 EST which
unfortunately , I authored , in it I mentioned that Douglas and John had postulated this
Brus identity based upon the fact that Mary gave birth to the de Toeni heir
Robert in 1276 at Turnby ( which unless I was halocinating John Ravilious
concluded was Turnberry Castle, then a possession of the Brus family since about
1271 and seat of the Earl of Carrick) Ralph VII de Toeni`s wardship and marriage
had been granted to Sir Richard de Brus, a younger brother of Robert de Brus
who married Margaret, Countess of Carrick. I learned that Neil, Earl of Carrick
, had four daughters , three, (now two: remember Aufrica,wife of Colin Mor
Campbell , whom John Ravilious postulated as a daughter of Neil last year ?
Note to Douglas and John... please let me know if I imagined this entire thread.