Thomas de Saint Omer
Dave D.
(grandfather of Sir Thomas Hoo of Lutton Hoo via Alice de St Omer),
and noticed that our canonical resource (Leo) might have a duplicate
for Thomas (he appears to be listed as Sir Thomas and Thomas). This is
a very trivial point of course, and I mention it here because I cannot
seem to get my email through to Leo's address.
The point I am trying to understand is the claim on a number of web
sites that Thomas de Saint Omer is a descendant of Bela III of
Hungary: for example, see Jim Weber's site:
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=jweber&id=I05957
Among other things, this would imply a great many more descents from
Harold Godwinson, if provable.
Cheers, Dave Drabold
WJho...@aol.com
ddra...@gmail.com writes:
> The point I am trying to understand is the claim on a number of web
> sites that Thomas de Saint Omer is a descendant of Bela III of
> Hungary: for example, see Jim Weber's site:
>
> http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=jweber&id=I05957
Lunatic nutty nuttings.
Sure the King of Hungary often goes around marrying his daughters to
obscure nobodies with small land holdings a thousand miles away.
Sure. Happens all the time.
Leo
What is the matter with you? Before making sweeping statements try to check
a little.
If you had bothered to look on my website you would have found that Bela
III, king of Hungary, had married his daughter Margareta to Isaac II
Angelos, Emperor of Byzantium.
After Isaac died, she married in 1204 Boniface I, Marchese de Monferrato,
who was killed in battle in 1207. After Boniface had died she married
Nicolas I, seigneur de Bootien.
Source ES Volume III Tafel 623.
Now Jim Weber adds to this that Margarete, born in 1175, gave birth in 1210
to a son by Nicolas de Bootien. Nothing unusual for a woman to give birth
age about 35.
After her second husband was killed she obviously took her own faith in her
own hands. This has happened many a time, remember Mary Tudor?
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
wjhonson
> Dear Will,
>
> What is the matter with you? Before making sweeping statements try to check
> a little.
>
> If you had bothered to look on my website you would have found that Bela
> III, king of Hungary, had married his daughter Margareta to Isaac II
> Angelos, Emperor of Byzantium.
> After Isaac died, she married in 1204 Boniface I, Marchese de Monferrato,
> who was killed in battle in 1207. After Boniface had died she married
> Nicolas I, seigneur de Bootien.
> Source ES Volume III Tafel 623.
>
> Now Jim Weber adds to this that Margarete, born in 1175, gave birth in 1210
> to a son by Nicolas de Bootien. Nothing unusual for a woman to give birth
> age about 35.
>
> After her second husband was killed she obviously took her own faith in her
> own hands. This has happened many a time, remember Mary Tudor?
>
> With best wishes
> Leo van de Pas
> Canberra, Australia
>
The St Omer family were lord in Thebes. None of them decided one day
to go live in England and rule a tiny manor house and a few acres of
land.
That somebody in England happened to be called "St Omer" is a pretty
silly excuse for linking the Empress to obscurity in two generations.
Incredulity rears it's ugly head, that's what the matter with me, my
dear.
That people cannot comprehend the distinction between sources which
are credible or even exist, from complete flights of fantasy which are
also ludicrous.
Will
John
Will's gone off his meds again apparently....
The problem in the St. Omer descent is likely not the Hungarian
connection, which as Leo has noted is supported in ESNF 3:623 - a
source which despite Will is credible and does exist and is
"ludicrous" only in Will's eyes, which of course have never seen it,
since it's not on Google Books.
But ESNF hedges its bets in the first generation beyond the Hungarian
marriage by saying Guillaume the son of Humbert de St. Omer, seigneur
de Bootien (note that Humbert's surname was not Bootien as in
Genealogics) who was living in Naples and later in Flanders was "wohl
identisch" (probably identical) with the Guillaume [or William] de St.
Omer who maried Pernel de Lacy in England. This hedged statement is
perhaps dubious and in fact ESNF does not carry the descent in this
branch any further and in particular does not indicate that William/
Guillaume had a son Thomas - and Jim Weber's database offers no
evidence to support the parentage of this Thomas.
wjhonson
Where Mr unable-to-read did I ever state that the Hungarian connection
is the problem here?
I think I was pretty consistent in stating that the ENGLISH connection
is the problem.
That is, exactly the point you made above. That Thomas de St Omer or
whatever his name was, simply because he had the same or similar name
to someone else, does not make him his son.
That was, my entire point, from A to Z.
This family was highly placed. They are not going to descend to this
level of obscurity in two generations.
That was my point.
antoine barbry
On the de Saint Omer family (which I descend from in its early generations) a
probably valuable printed source has recently been published by a young
historian, specialist of the noble families from the region of St Omer (the
town..).
I put below the link to the outline of the book (apparently 500 pages). He
highlights the fact that he has "brought out of collective amnesia parts of the
family in Normandy and England".
http://www.morinie.com/Actualites5.htm#SaintOmer
I haven't myself read the book and I don't plan to buy it, however it might be
worth considering for those of you who descend from the de St Omer in England.
Obviously, the book is in French..
best regards,
antoine barbry
________________________________
From: John <jhigg...@yahoo.com>
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Wed, September 8, 2010 6:36:23 PM
Subject: Re: Thomas de Saint Omer
But ESNF hedges its bets in the first generation beyond the Hungarian
marriage by saying Guillaume the son of Humbert de St. Omer, seigneur
de Bootien (note that Humbert's surname was not Bootien as in
Genealogics) who was living in Naples and later in Flanders was "wohl
identisch" (probably identical) with the Guillaume [or William] de St.
Omer who maried Pernel de Lacy in England. This hedged statement is
perhaps dubious and in fact ESNF does not carry the descent in this
branch any further and in particular does not indicate that William/
Guillaume had a son Thomas - and Jim Weber's database offers no
evidence to support the parentage of this Thomas.
-------------------------------