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Thomas Whitfield & Mildred Manning [Dymoke Question]
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sangreel
Feb 6, 2012, 7:24:10 PM2/6/12
to
What I am searching for, and not having much success, is a answer to a
question I have about achievement [shield] of arms as located in the
Church of St. Nicholas, Worth, Sussex, England for Thomas and Mildred
[Manning] Whitfield. [cir. 1630] The last two arms on the Manning side
are
Kirkener, and Dymoke with a Star of cadence, 2nd house. I have a photo
and a rubbing of this shield of arms.
I have a copy of the wall chart that John Brooks Threfall was kind
enough to send me and he has the wife of Eerasmus Kirkener as being
married to Agnes Dymoke, [d.abt. 1567] heir to her father.
Her first husband was Robert Waller, 2nd was Erasmus Kirkner, [d.
1567] Chief Armorer to King Henry VIII. As the shield was placed in
1630, this being 37 years after the death of Agnes, I am searching
for sources to nail down the reason for the Dymoke arms being included
as part of the heraldic achievement for Thomas Whitfield and Mildred
Manning. Mildred being the daughter of Henry
Manning, and Catherine Kirkener, Henry being keeper of the Royal Park
at Greenwich, Knight Marshal to King Henry VIII, Edward VI and Queens
Mary & Elizabeth I.
But, when I look at the coat of arms for George Manning, brother to
Henry Manning who married Catherine Kirkener, the last two quarters:
Kirkener, and Dymoke are left out. I understand this to mean that
George was not entitled to quarter them.
http://tinyurl.com/7xapqhn Manning sources.
So, the question remains, Who was Agnes Dymoke / "relicta" Robert
Waller, and who was her father? For this person to in fact be a Dymoke
heiress, there is a very small time window that she must fit in.
A good Manning pedigree is located in Waters Gen. Gleanings in
England, Vol. 2, between pages 1322 and 1323. The Whitfield pedigrees
are located in the same Vol. on pages 1352 - 1353.
http://tinyurl.com/7ak3k6a Lincolnshire Pedigrees
Lincolnshire Pedigrees, page 1202 are start the Dymoke pedigrees. Page
1204 is where I found the notation that Lionel Dymoke had 3 daughters,
but Douglas Richardson has informed me that Lionel Dymoke had only 2
daughters. "Scrivelsby, the home of the champions: with some account
of the Marmion and ...etc. By Samuel Lodge" http://tinyurl.com/72gupaz
seems to dispute DRs allegation that Lionel Dymoke had only 2
daughters. I am NOT making the claim that Agnes Dymoke / Waller was
the daughter of Lionel Dymoke as the 3 daughters seem to have been
married to: Hopton, Skipwith and Goodrich.
If this shield of arms is in error, then we must know. If it is in
fact correct, then we may have another "Gateway", or possible Royal
line to pursue.
question I have about achievement [shield] of arms as located in the
Church of St. Nicholas, Worth, Sussex, England for Thomas and Mildred
[Manning] Whitfield. [cir. 1630] The last two arms on the Manning side
are
Kirkener, and Dymoke with a Star of cadence, 2nd house. I have a photo
and a rubbing of this shield of arms.
I have a copy of the wall chart that John Brooks Threfall was kind
enough to send me and he has the wife of Eerasmus Kirkener as being
married to Agnes Dymoke, [d.abt. 1567] heir to her father.
Her first husband was Robert Waller, 2nd was Erasmus Kirkner, [d.
1567] Chief Armorer to King Henry VIII. As the shield was placed in
1630, this being 37 years after the death of Agnes, I am searching
for sources to nail down the reason for the Dymoke arms being included
as part of the heraldic achievement for Thomas Whitfield and Mildred
Manning. Mildred being the daughter of Henry
Manning, and Catherine Kirkener, Henry being keeper of the Royal Park
at Greenwich, Knight Marshal to King Henry VIII, Edward VI and Queens
Mary & Elizabeth I.
But, when I look at the coat of arms for George Manning, brother to
Henry Manning who married Catherine Kirkener, the last two quarters:
Kirkener, and Dymoke are left out. I understand this to mean that
George was not entitled to quarter them.
http://tinyurl.com/7xapqhn Manning sources.
So, the question remains, Who was Agnes Dymoke / "relicta" Robert
Waller, and who was her father? For this person to in fact be a Dymoke
heiress, there is a very small time window that she must fit in.
A good Manning pedigree is located in Waters Gen. Gleanings in
England, Vol. 2, between pages 1322 and 1323. The Whitfield pedigrees
are located in the same Vol. on pages 1352 - 1353.
http://tinyurl.com/7ak3k6a Lincolnshire Pedigrees
Lincolnshire Pedigrees, page 1202 are start the Dymoke pedigrees. Page
1204 is where I found the notation that Lionel Dymoke had 3 daughters,
but Douglas Richardson has informed me that Lionel Dymoke had only 2
daughters. "Scrivelsby, the home of the champions: with some account
of the Marmion and ...etc. By Samuel Lodge" http://tinyurl.com/72gupaz
seems to dispute DRs allegation that Lionel Dymoke had only 2
daughters. I am NOT making the claim that Agnes Dymoke / Waller was
the daughter of Lionel Dymoke as the 3 daughters seem to have been
married to: Hopton, Skipwith and Goodrich.
If this shield of arms is in error, then we must know. If it is in
fact correct, then we may have another "Gateway", or possible Royal
line to pursue.
Alex Maxwell Findlater
Feb 7, 2012, 1:05:36 AM2/7/12
to
You cannot deduce that because quarterings are not used, there is no
entitlement to them. If there is an entitlement, they are used
sometimes, but not always, depending on the situation.
Furthermore in Tudor times many non-heiress arms are used as if they
were the arms of an heiress. This is particularly prevalent on the
Garter stall-plates in St George's, but must have been common
throughout armigerous society. That does not mean that the arms were
not in the descent, for they probably were, but the mother was not an
heiress. This was a new society, founded on the ruins of the society
which destroyed itself in the Wars of the Roses. Anyone who could
claim a connection to earlier magnatial families, even if not an
heiress connection, was pleased to show it in heraldry.
The heralds at this time were not overscrupulous about heraldry or
genealogy, though as one moves through the Tudor period they became
more careful, but remember that the Churchill Dukes of Marlborough
were said to descent from Julius Caesar, and there we are in the early
C18!
In this case if Henry Manning married a Kirkiner heiress, why should
his brother George bear her arms?
entitlement to them. If there is an entitlement, they are used
sometimes, but not always, depending on the situation.
Furthermore in Tudor times many non-heiress arms are used as if they
were the arms of an heiress. This is particularly prevalent on the
Garter stall-plates in St George's, but must have been common
throughout armigerous society. That does not mean that the arms were
not in the descent, for they probably were, but the mother was not an
heiress. This was a new society, founded on the ruins of the society
which destroyed itself in the Wars of the Roses. Anyone who could
claim a connection to earlier magnatial families, even if not an
heiress connection, was pleased to show it in heraldry.
The heralds at this time were not overscrupulous about heraldry or
genealogy, though as one moves through the Tudor period they became
more careful, but remember that the Churchill Dukes of Marlborough
were said to descent from Julius Caesar, and there we are in the early
C18!
In this case if Henry Manning married a Kirkiner heiress, why should
his brother George bear her arms?
Douglas Richardson
Feb 7, 2012, 1:49:43 AM2/7/12
to
On Feb 6, 5:24 pm, sangreel <sangr...@msn.com> wrote:
< Lincolnshire Pedigrees, page 1202 are start the Dymoke pedigrees.
Page
< 1204 is where I found the notation that Lionel Dymoke had 3
daughters,
< but Douglas Richardson has informed me that Lionel Dymoke had only 2
< daughters. "Scrivelsby, the home of the champions: with some
account
< of the Marmion and ...etc. By Samuel Lodge" http://tinyurl.com/
72gupaz
< seems to dispute DRs allegation that Lionel Dymoke had only 2
< daughters. I am NOT making the claim that Agnes Dymoke / Waller was
< the daughter of Lionel Dymoke as the 3 daughters seem to have been
< married to: Hopton, Skipwith and Goodrich.
Lionel Dymoke only had two surviving daughters. Feel free to post the
< Lincolnshire Pedigrees, page 1202 are start the Dymoke pedigrees.
Page
< 1204 is where I found the notation that Lionel Dymoke had 3
daughters,
< but Douglas Richardson has informed me that Lionel Dymoke had only 2
< daughters. "Scrivelsby, the home of the champions: with some
account
< of the Marmion and ...etc. By Samuel Lodge" http://tinyurl.com/
72gupaz
< seems to dispute DRs allegation that Lionel Dymoke had only 2
< daughters. I am NOT making the claim that Agnes Dymoke / Waller was
< the daughter of Lionel Dymoke as the 3 daughters seem to have been
< married to: Hopton, Skipwith and Goodrich.
evidence I gave you privately.
DR
sangreel
Feb 7, 2012, 4:01:19 AM2/7/12
to
father is.
sangreel
Feb 7, 2012, 4:00:23 AM2/7/12
to
On Feb 6, 10:05 pm, Alex Maxwell Findlater
As I stated, I did NOT believe that George Manning had rights to the
same set of arms.
"I understand this to mean that George was not entitled to quarter
them. "
Thank you for your reply.
MDW
same set of arms.
"I understand this to mean that George was not entitled to quarter
them. "
MDW
sangreel
Feb 7, 2012, 4:10:26 AM2/7/12
to
On Feb 6, 10:49 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
Michael ~
You have a question? I suggest you read Sir John Rudstone's will
dated 1531 which I referenced in my former newsgroup post. His will
reads as follows:
"To either of the doughters of the late Lyon Dymoke, my wifes
uncle, a black gowne."
The wording of this will suggests that Lionel Dymoke then had two
living daughters (hence the word "either"). Had there been three
daughters, he would have used the word "all" or "every." Likewise the
Chancery suit I cited in my post dated 1519–21, mentions two living
Dymoke daughters, not three.
Given this evidence, your theory about Erasmus Kirkner's wife, Agnes,
is not viable.
Sincerely, Douglas Richardson
**
I have in my will and trust: "If either of my children come to
Ireland..." I have 5 LIVING children, so your statement does not
hold water to me. You may be correct, but all the sources I have found
show that all 3 of his female children married. Also, I did not see
where Sir John Rudstone named the children LIVING, so his will is open
to interpretation.
MDW.
sangreel
Feb 7, 2012, 3:58:05 AM2/7/12
to
On Feb 6, 10:49 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
Michael ~
You have a question? I suggest you read Sir John Rudstone's will
dated 1531 which I referenced in my former newsgroup post. His will
reads as follows: "To either of the doughters of the late Lyon
Dymoke, my wifes uncle, a black gowne."
The wording of this will suggests that Lionel Dymoke then had two
living daughters (hence the word "either"). Had there been three
daughters, he would have used the word "all" or "every." Likewise the
Chancery suit I cited in my post dated 1519–21, mentions two living
Dymoke daughters, not three.
Given this evidence, your theory about Erasmus Kirkner's wife, Agnes,
is not viable.
**
You have a question? I suggest you read Sir John Rudstone's will
dated 1531 which I referenced in my former newsgroup post. His will
reads as follows: "To either of the doughters of the late Lyon
Dymoke, my wifes uncle, a black gowne."
The wording of this will suggests that Lionel Dymoke then had two
living daughters (hence the word "either"). Had there been three
daughters, he would have used the word "all" or "every." Likewise the
Chancery suit I cited in my post dated 1519–21, mentions two living
Dymoke daughters, not three.
Given this evidence, your theory about Erasmus Kirkner's wife, Agnes,
is not viable.
My own will and trust states: "To EITHER of my children who come to
Ireland......." I have 5 living children so your statement does NOT
hold water, for me.
MDW
sangreel
Feb 7, 2012, 4:26:58 AM2/7/12
to
Here is the only "Hopton" that I have found that relate to the Dymoke
family. DR, You may be correct, but further research in needed.
sangreel
Feb 7, 2012, 4:23:30 AM2/7/12
to
To my right welbelovid Syr Robert Dymok, knight, my wyfes father, a
blacke gowne. To my lady priores of Dertford a white habit. To either
of the doughters of the late Lyon Dymoke, my wifes uncle, a blacke
gowne.
North country wills: being abstracts of wills relating to the ...,
Volume 115, By Church of England. Province of Canterbury. Prerogative
Court http://tinyurl.com/7hoewyd
States:
"In one of the lower corners of this brass are the figures of Sir
Lionel's two sons, who, although here represented as grown up, appear
to have died in their infancy: and in the opposite corner are his
three daughters, who were respectively married to—Hopton, Sir William
Skipwith and John Goodrich of Bolingbroke."
So I ask you, is this information in error, and who is "Hopton"?
But, to bring this tread back to my original question:
Who was Agnes who was first married to Robert Waller and 2nd to
Erasmus Kirkner?
sangreel
Feb 7, 2012, 4:28:26 AM2/7/12
to
On Feb 7, 12:58 am, sangreel <sangr...@msn.com> wrote:
http://books.google.com/books?id=TltIAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA10&ots=dkpJEnc3Ot&dq=dymoke%20hopton&pg=PA10#v=onepage&q=dymoke%20hopton&f=false
Doug
Feb 7, 2012, 7:00:38 AM2/7/12
to
check some of these:
Leo van de Pas at http://www.genealogics.org.
http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/DYMOKE.htm#Ursula%20DYMOKE1.
Visitation of the North, Part IV, Visitation of Yorkshire and
Northumberland in A. D. 1575, and a Book of Arms from Ashmole MS. No.
834, Publications of the Surtees Society, Vol. CXLVI, Durham, (1932),
p 68.
North Country Wills 1 (Surtees Soc. 116) (1908): 126-128.
I have that Sir johnRudston, Lord Mayor of London was married to
Ursula Dymoke, daughter of Sir Robert Dymoke and his first wife Anne
Cresnore. I believe Sir Robert was Sir Lionel's brother.
Doug Smith
Doug
Feb 7, 2012, 7:31:09 AM2/7/12
to
> Visitation of the North, Part IV, Visitation of Yorkshire and
> Northumberland in A. D. 1575, and a Book of Arms from Ashmole MS. No.
> 834, Publications of the Surtees Society, Vol. CXLVI, Durham, (1932),
> p 68.
> North Country Wills 1 (Surtees Soc. 116) (1908): 126-128.
>
> I have that Sir johnRudston, Lord Mayor of London was married to
> Ursula Dymoke, daughter of Sir Robert Dymoke and his first wife Anne
> Cresnore. I believe Sir Robert was Sir Lionel's brother.
>
> Doug Smith
I believe that Sir Arthur Hopton was married to Maud, daughter of the
> Northumberland in A. D. 1575, and a Book of Arms from Ashmole MS. No.
> 834, Publications of the Surtees Society, Vol. CXLVI, Durham, (1932),
> p 68.
> North Country Wills 1 (Surtees Soc. 116) (1908): 126-128.
>
> I have that Sir johnRudston, Lord Mayor of London was married to
> Ursula Dymoke, daughter of Sir Robert Dymoke and his first wife Anne
> Cresnore. I believe Sir Robert was Sir Lionel's brother.
>
> Doug Smith
same Sir Robert.
Doug
Doug
Feb 7, 2012, 7:02:51 AM2/7/12
to
Sir Robert also had a daughter Maud who married Sir Arthur Hopton.
Doug Smith
Douglas Richardson
Feb 7, 2012, 9:51:13 AM2/7/12
to
In addition to the 1531 will of Sir John Rudstone, here is an abstract
of the Chancery suit that I pointed out to Michael (alias Sangreel)
which indicates that Sir Lionel Dymoke left two surviving daughters:
In the period, 1519–21, John Goderyke [Goodrick] of Kirkby, Gent., and
Anne his wife, and William Skipwith of Ormsby, Esq., and Alice, his
wife, sued Anne, late wife of Lyon Dymmoke, Knt., father of the said
Anne and Alice, in Chancery regarding the detention of deeds relating
to lands, rents, etc. in Mareham-on-the-Hill, Horncastle, etc.,
Lincolnshire.
The source for the above information is: National Archives, C 1/447/43
(available online at www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp).
Sir Lionel Dymoke died 17 Aug. 1519, and was buried at Horncastle,
Lincolnshire. He left a will dated 15 April 1512, codicil dated 17
Aug. 1519, proved 29 Nov. 1519 (P.C.C. 23 Ayloffe). His widow, Anne,
left a will proved 8 May 1521 (P.C.C. 9 Maynmaryng).
Michael can order and download a copy of either or both of these wills
from the National Archives website. Good luck in your sleuthing.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
of the Chancery suit that I pointed out to Michael (alias Sangreel)
which indicates that Sir Lionel Dymoke left two surviving daughters:
In the period, 1519–21, John Goderyke [Goodrick] of Kirkby, Gent., and
Anne his wife, and William Skipwith of Ormsby, Esq., and Alice, his
wife, sued Anne, late wife of Lyon Dymmoke, Knt., father of the said
Anne and Alice, in Chancery regarding the detention of deeds relating
to lands, rents, etc. in Mareham-on-the-Hill, Horncastle, etc.,
Lincolnshire.
The source for the above information is: National Archives, C 1/447/43
(available online at www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp).
Sir Lionel Dymoke died 17 Aug. 1519, and was buried at Horncastle,
Lincolnshire. He left a will dated 15 April 1512, codicil dated 17
Aug. 1519, proved 29 Nov. 1519 (P.C.C. 23 Ayloffe). His widow, Anne,
left a will proved 8 May 1521 (P.C.C. 9 Maynmaryng).
Michael can order and download a copy of either or both of these wills
from the National Archives website. Good luck in your sleuthing.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Nathaniel Taylor
Feb 7, 2012, 11:08:24 AM2/7/12
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
daughters. What you seek is identification of Catherine (Kirkner)
Manning's ancestry -- who are the parents of her apparent mother
Agnes (Dymoke) (Waller) Kirkener? If the Dymokes had modest
collateral branches she could have been an heraldic heiress in a
strict sense without being so in broader social or economic terms.
One basic question is -- were the Dymokes a narrow or bushy family at
this time? Are there plausible known branches of the same family
which she might have come from (whether or not she were actually an
heraldic heiress)? Of course (as Alex points out) the arms may have
been displayed even without her being an heiress -- such liberties
were not uncommon. Even if this were the case the use of the arms
does support her belonging to the Lincolnshire Dymokes somehow, since
the impropriety of heraldically displaying an entirely false
connection I think would have been received rather worse than the
impropriety of 'heiress-or-not?'. Finally, is it possible that the
last quartering might be entirely misidentified as belonging to
Dymoke and perhaps represents something in Erasmus Kirkener's own
(Continental) ancestry?
Nat Taylor
Douglas Richardson
Feb 7, 2012, 12:53:06 PM2/7/12
to
On Feb 7, 9:08 am, Nathaniel Taylor <nltay...@nltaylor.net> wrote:
< This thread has got off on a useless tangent about Lionel Dymoke's
< daughters.
Michael has noted that it is claimed in print that Sir Lionel Dymoke
< This thread has got off on a useless tangent about Lionel Dymoke's
< daughters.
had three daughters, but only two surviving daughters have been
identified. Michael wants to know if his Agnes (Dymoke) (Waller)
Kirkener is possibly the third daughter of Sir Lionel Dymoke, as he
has found indication that Agnes might be a Dymoke heiress. This is a
perfectly good question.
I've provided Michael evidence which indicates that Sir Lionel Dymoke
only had the two surviving daughters, excluding Agnes. A better
starting question at this point I think would be to ask Michael how
certain he is that the arms attributed to the Dymoke family on the
Whitfield monument are really those of the Dymoke family. If the arms
actually belong to another family, then this thread on the Dymoke
family really would be useless to him.
Nathaniel Taylor
Feb 7, 2012, 1:17:08 PM2/7/12
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
At 9:53 AM -0800 2/7/12, Douglas Richardson wrote:
>On Feb 7, 9:08 am, Nathaniel Taylor <nltay...@nltaylor.net> wrote:
>
>< This thread has got off on a useless tangent about Lionel Dymoke's
>< daughters.
>
>Michael has noted that it is claimed in print that Sir Lionel Dymoke
>had three daughters, but only two surviving daughters have been
>identified. Michael wants to know if his Agnes (Dymoke) (Waller)
>Kirkener is possibly the third daughter of Sir Lionel Dymoke...
>On Feb 7, 9:08 am, Nathaniel Taylor <nltay...@nltaylor.net> wrote:
>
>< This thread has got off on a useless tangent about Lionel Dymoke's
>< daughters.
>
>Michael has noted that it is claimed in print that Sir Lionel Dymoke
>had three daughters, but only two surviving daughters have been
>identified. Michael wants to know if his Agnes (Dymoke) (Waller)
Douglas ~
Perhaps you missed it in his original post where he wrote:
>I am NOT making the claim that Agnes Dymoke / Waller was
>the daughter of Lionel Dymoke as the 3 daughters seem to have been
>married to: Hopton, Skipwith and Goodrich.
Douglas Richardson
Feb 7, 2012, 1:31:53 PM2/7/12
to
On Feb 7, 11:17 am, Nathaniel Taylor <nltay...@nltaylor.net> wrote:
< Perhaps you missed it in his original post where he wrote:
<
< >I am NOT making the claim that Agnes Dymoke / Waller was
< >the daughter of Lionel Dymoke as the 3 daughters seem to have been
< >married to: Hopton, Skipwith and Goodrich.
<
< Nat Taylor
Michael raised the question about Agnes (allegedly Dymoke) in a
< Perhaps you missed it in his original post where he wrote:
<
< >I am NOT making the claim that Agnes Dymoke / Waller was
< >the daughter of Lionel Dymoke as the 3 daughters seem to have been
< >married to: Hopton, Skipwith and Goodrich.
<
< Nat Taylor
private e-mail to me. it was a perfectly good question. I told him
that Sir Lionel Dymoke left two surviving daughters, Alice (wife of
William Skipwith, Knt.) and Anne (wife of John Goodrick, Gent.). That
still stands. I should hasten to add that there was no daughter of
Sir Lionel Dymoke married to a Hopton (at least that left issue),
although that has been alleged in print as Michael shows.
A more important issue at hand is that I haven't seen any evidence
presented that Agnes was even a Dymoke. The presence of the Dymoke
arms on the Whitfield monument doesn't necessarily mean that Agnes
herself was a Dymoke. Even if correctly identified, the Dymoke arms
may belong to another lady in the Whitfield family tree.
Exactly who claimed she was a Dymoke? We need to see the evidence!
Message has been deleted
Nathaniel Taylor
Feb 7, 2012, 2:23:25 PM2/7/12
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
At 10:31 AM -0800 2/7/12, Douglas Richardson wrote:
>Even if correctly identified, the Dymoke arms may belong to another
>lady in the Whitfield family tree.
The place of this coat in the achievement for Mildred (Manning)
>Even if correctly identified, the Dymoke arms may belong to another
>lady in the Whitfield family tree.
Whitfield, following a quartering for her maternal grandfather,
Erasmus Kirkener, means that, heraldically, the coat must pertain
either to a maternal ancestor of Kirkener or to his wife. I think it
less likely that the quarterings would be displayed out of order,
than that a quartering would be improperly included for someone who
was not an heraldic heiress.
I did suggest in my last post that the coat could be Continental and
belong to one of Kirkener's maternal ancestors (i.e. not Dymoke at
all). I now wonder whether it is possible that the coat attributed
to Kirkener is not his at all, and both 'his' quartering and the
alleged Dymoke one comes instead from further up the Manning tree?
Kirkener was a foreigner, a tradesman, and is not recorded the
Harleian volumes of known grants of arms. Just because Mildred's
Manning father's brother didn't display those two quarterings doesn't
mean that they couldn't have come from Mildred's father's ancestry.
Perhaps Michael can post a photo or description of the complete
Whitfield-Manning achievement?
Nat Taylor
Douglas Richardson
Feb 7, 2012, 2:46:25 PM2/7/12
to
Thanks John for posting this information. Much appreciated.
As for Agnes (_____) (Waller) Kirkener, I suspect when the evidence is
presented, we will see that there is nothing to prove that Agnes was a
Dymoke. We may also find that the arms of the Whitfield monument may
even have been misidentified.
I want to know who first said she was a Dymoke and what evidence they
used. Does anyone want to answer that question?
Checking online, I see one online database gives the following source
for Agnes as a Dymoke:
WorldConnect database: "The Van Wart and Warner family Mayflower
connection" of Michael Warner, (mdel...@msn.com).
Is this the same person as Michael Warner who posts here as sangreel?
Could we be going in circles or what?
As for Agnes (_____) (Waller) Kirkener, I suspect when the evidence is
presented, we will see that there is nothing to prove that Agnes was a
Dymoke. We may also find that the arms of the Whitfield monument may
even have been misidentified.
I want to know who first said she was a Dymoke and what evidence they
used. Does anyone want to answer that question?
Checking online, I see one online database gives the following source
for Agnes as a Dymoke:
WorldConnect database: "The Van Wart and Warner family Mayflower
connection" of Michael Warner, (mdel...@msn.com).
Is this the same person as Michael Warner who posts here as sangreel?
Could we be going in circles or what?
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
sangreel
Feb 7, 2012, 8:11:23 PM2/7/12
to
On Feb 7, 8:08 am, Nathaniel Taylor <nltay...@nltaylor.net> wrote:
> At 4:24 PM -0800 2/6/12, sangreel wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >What I am searching for, and not having much success, is a answer to a
> >question I have about achievement [shield] of arms as located in the
> >Church of St. Nicholas, Worth, Sussex, England for Thomas and Mildred
> >[Manning] Whitfield. [cir. 1630] The last two arms on the Manning side
> >are Kirkener, and Dymoke with a Star of cadence, 2nd house. I have a photo
> >and a rubbing of this shield of arms.
>
> >I have a copy of the wall chart that John Brooks Threfall was kind
> >enough to send me and he has the wife of Eerasmus Kirkener as being
> >married to Agnes Dymoke, [d.abt. 1567] heir to her father.
> >Her first husband was Robert Waller, 2nd was Erasmus Kirkner, [d.
> >1567] Chief Armorer to King Henry VIII. As the shield was placed in
> >1630, this being 37 years after the death of Agnes, I am searching
> >for sources to nail down the reason for the Dymoke arms being included
> >as part of the heraldic achievement for Thomas Whitfield and Mildred
> >Manning. Mildred being the daughter of Henry
> >Manning, and Catherine Kirkener, Henry being keeper of the Royal Park
> >at Greenwich, Knight Marshal to King Henry VIII, Edward VI and Queens
> >Mary & Elizabeth I.
>
> >But, when I look at the coat of arms for George Manning, brother to
> >Henry Manning who married Catherine Kirkener, the last two quarters:
> >Kirkener, and Dymoke are left out. I understand this to mean that
> >George was not entitled to quarter them.
>
> >http://tinyurl.com/7xapqhnManning sources.
> At 4:24 PM -0800 2/6/12, sangreel wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >What I am searching for, and not having much success, is a answer to a
> >question I have about achievement [shield] of arms as located in the
> >Church of St. Nicholas, Worth, Sussex, England for Thomas and Mildred
> >[Manning] Whitfield. [cir. 1630] The last two arms on the Manning side
> >are Kirkener, and Dymoke with a Star of cadence, 2nd house. I have a photo
> >and a rubbing of this shield of arms.
>
> >I have a copy of the wall chart that John Brooks Threfall was kind
> >enough to send me and he has the wife of Eerasmus Kirkener as being
> >married to Agnes Dymoke, [d.abt. 1567] heir to her father.
> >Her first husband was Robert Waller, 2nd was Erasmus Kirkner, [d.
> >1567] Chief Armorer to King Henry VIII. As the shield was placed in
> >1630, this being 37 years after the death of Agnes, I am searching
> >for sources to nail down the reason for the Dymoke arms being included
> >as part of the heraldic achievement for Thomas Whitfield and Mildred
> >Manning. Mildred being the daughter of Henry
> >Manning, and Catherine Kirkener, Henry being keeper of the Royal Park
> >at Greenwich, Knight Marshal to King Henry VIII, Edward VI and Queens
> >Mary & Elizabeth I.
>
> >But, when I look at the coat of arms for George Manning, brother to
> >Henry Manning who married Catherine Kirkener, the last two quarters:
> >Kirkener, and Dymoke are left out. I understand this to mean that
> >George was not entitled to quarter them.
>
The coat of arms as shown in the Church of St. Nicholas, Worth,
Sussex, England for Thomas and Mildred, cir. 1630, MATCH the arms
shown for Dymoke thus:
Here: http://tinyurl.com/79ymy3y Heraldic illustrations, by J.
and J. B. Burke, By John Burke, John Bernard Burke (sir.) (The Dymoke
Plate below "Russell", 2nd qtr is the coat of arms in question).
Here: http://tinyurl.com/7vevkt8 Encyclopaedia of Heraldry or
general Armory of England, Scotland and Ireland ... By John Burke
Page 310-311
ie: DYMOKE.(Scrivelsby, co. Lincoln) , Sa. two lions pass. arg.
crowned or.
Dymoke (Grebby Hall, co. Lincoln ; descended from Edward, second
son of Sir Edward Dymoke, knt. of Scrivelsby, Champion at the
coronation of King Charlts 11-: the heiress, Elizabeth Dymoke, m. the
Rev. Thomas Wells, rector of Willinghnm and Springthorpe, in the same
county, and was mother of the late Dymoke Wells, of Crcbby Hall, esq.;
sec Wells of Grebby). Arms, &c. same as DyMoke of Scrivelsby.
Dymoke, or Dimock. Sa. two lions pass. ar. crowned or.
..........With the only difference being with a Star of cadence, top
left corner, 2nd house.
IF any research has a lead that I can follow I will do so gladly. I
know I am onto something.... just what only time will show.
Nat: you ask the very important question: "Finally, is it possible
that the last quartering might be entirely misidentified as belonging
to Dymoke and perhaps represents something in Erasmus Kirkener's own
(Continental) ancestry?"
I took some time and looked into that idea and this is all I can come
to Dymoke and perhaps represents something in Erasmus Kirkener's own
(Continental) ancestry?"
up with:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=-2451588&CATLN=7&accessmethod=5
Item reference C 1/879/35
Record Summary
Scope and content
William Reymond, grocer, of London. v. The mayor and sheriffs of
London.: Action of debt by an unknown Dutchman on a bill for 54s. 9d.
Flemish given to Agnes Dymok of Antwerp and since satisfied.
Certiorari.: London.
Covering dates 1533-1538
Held by
The National Archives, Kew
Legal status Public Record(s)
My family has a full copy of Ristraps [sic spelling] armory and this
week end I shall crack them open to look within and see what they
hold as well.
Thank you for all your help!
Michael
sangreel
Feb 7, 2012, 8:15:27 PM2/7/12
to
On Feb 7, 9:34 am, Johnny Brananas <ravinmaven2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > impropriety of 'heiress-or-not?'. Finally, is it possible that the
> > last quartering might be entirely misidentified as belonging to
> > Dymoke and perhaps represents something in Erasmus Kirkener's own
> > (Continental) ancestry?
>
> This is my thought ... ie, that Threlfall misidentified some German
> > impropriety of 'heiress-or-not?'. Finally, is it possible that the
> > last quartering might be entirely misidentified as belonging to
> > Dymoke and perhaps represents something in Erasmus Kirkener's own
> > (Continental) ancestry?
>
> arms as Dymoke.
>
> Erasmus' widow Agnes mentioned her "cousin Susanna Hinde" in her will
> of 1591 -- this might be a clue.
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=caNCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA1329&dq=%22agnes+k...
>
> The name might really be Boreman alias Hinde:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?ei=P18xT5bYOMfEtgfB663tBg&id=_REoAQAAMA...
>
> Some references to Erasmus Waller, her grandson or other descendant:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=TOghAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA19&dq=%22erasmus+w...
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=zbwEAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA17&dq=%22erasmus+w...
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=NjIEAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA164&dq=%22erasmus+...
Thank you, I shall investigate these leads.
sangreel
Feb 7, 2012, 8:20:11 PM2/7/12
to
On Feb 7, 11:46 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
> Thanks John for posting this information. Much appreciated.
>
> As for Agnes (_____) (Waller) Kirkener, I suspect when the evidence is
> presented, we will see that there is nothing to prove that Agnes was a
> Dymoke. We may also find that the arms of the Whitfield monument may
> even have been misidentified.
>
> I want to know who first said she was a Dymoke and what evidence they
> used. Does anyone want to answer that question?
>
> Checking online, I see one online database gives the following source
> for Agnes as a Dymoke:
>
> WorldConnect database: "The Van Wart and Warner family Mayflower
> connection" of Michael Warner, (mdela...@msn.com).
> Thanks John for posting this information. Much appreciated.
>
> As for Agnes (_____) (Waller) Kirkener, I suspect when the evidence is
> presented, we will see that there is nothing to prove that Agnes was a
> Dymoke. We may also find that the arms of the Whitfield monument may
> even have been misidentified.
>
> I want to know who first said she was a Dymoke and what evidence they
> used. Does anyone want to answer that question?
>
> Checking online, I see one online database gives the following source
> for Agnes as a Dymoke:
>
> WorldConnect database: "The Van Wart and Warner family Mayflower
>
> Is this the same person as Michael Warner who posts here as sangreel?
> Could we be going in circles or what?
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City
You are very correct Douglas. That file was the result of my departed
> Is this the same person as Michael Warner who posts here as sangreel?
> Could we be going in circles or what?
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City
mothers research and I posted it to seek help as I was at the time new
to genealogy, but as my mother requested in her will that i finish her
work I am doing just that. The orig, file was posted over 10 years
ago and as I am now retired I can give it my full attention.
sangreel
Feb 7, 2012, 8:16:01 PM2/7/12
to
sangreel
Feb 7, 2012, 8:23:03 PM2/7/12
to
On Feb 7, 12:27 pm, Johnny Brananas <ravinmaven2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > I think there may be some discussion of the Monument in _Sussex
> > Archaeological Collections_, vol. 69 (1928).
>
> Part of the discussion in that article goes: "Thomas Whitfield's
> mother was Catherine, d. and coh. of Erasmus Kerkener and widow of
> Robert Waller. Burke's _Armoury_ gives the arms of Kirkeby [? sic] as
> 'Sable two lions passant in pale or.' Erasmus Kerkener was a
> celebrated armourer and worker in gold. ..."
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=a7kxAQAAIAAJ&q=%22catherine+d+and+co...
>
> I wonder what the arms of Catherine's first husband, Robert Waller,
> were?
None of the Waller arms resemble Dymoke in any way.
http://tinyurl.com/77evvvj
Burkes general armory page 1066 -1067
> > I think there may be some discussion of the Monument in _Sussex
> > Archaeological Collections_, vol. 69 (1928).
>
> Part of the discussion in that article goes: "Thomas Whitfield's
> mother was Catherine, d. and coh. of Erasmus Kerkener and widow of
> Robert Waller. Burke's _Armoury_ gives the arms of Kirkeby [? sic] as
> 'Sable two lions passant in pale or.' Erasmus Kerkener was a
> celebrated armourer and worker in gold. ..."
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=a7kxAQAAIAAJ&q=%22catherine+d+and+co...
>
> I wonder what the arms of Catherine's first husband, Robert Waller,
> were?
None of the Waller arms resemble Dymoke in any way.
http://tinyurl.com/77evvvj
Burkes general armory page 1066 -1067
sangreel
Feb 7, 2012, 8:30:46 PM2/7/12
to
On Feb 7, 12:27 pm, Johnny Brananas <ravinmaven2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > I think there may be some discussion of the Monument in _Sussex
> > Archaeological Collections_, vol. 69 (1928).
>
> Part of the discussion in that article goes: "Thomas Whitfield's
> mother was Catherine, d. and coh. of Erasmus Kerkener and widow of
> Robert Waller. Burke's _Armoury_ gives the arms of Kirkeby [? sic] as
> 'Sable two lions passant in pale or.' Erasmus Kerkener was a
> celebrated armourer and worker in gold. ..."
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=a7kxAQAAIAAJ&q=%22catherine+d+and+co...
>
> I wonder what the arms of Catherine's first husband, Robert Waller,
> were?
http://books.google.com/books?id=a7kxAQAAIAAJ&q=%22catherine+d+and+coh+of+erasmus%22&dq=%22catherine+d+and+coh+of+erasmus%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PIgxT-zBMdKztwfeo6TqBg&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA
> > I think there may be some discussion of the Monument in _Sussex
> > Archaeological Collections_, vol. 69 (1928).
>
> Part of the discussion in that article goes: "Thomas Whitfield's
> mother was Catherine, d. and coh. of Erasmus Kerkener and widow of
> Robert Waller. Burke's _Armoury_ gives the arms of Kirkeby [? sic] as
> 'Sable two lions passant in pale or.' Erasmus Kerkener was a
> celebrated armourer and worker in gold. ..."
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=a7kxAQAAIAAJ&q=%22catherine+d+and+co...
>
> I wonder what the arms of Catherine's first husband, Robert Waller,
> were?
I may have a break here as the arms in this citation 'seem" to match
Dymoke in may way. I will further my research along that line. Thank
you!!!
Doug
Feb 8, 2012, 4:12:59 AM2/8/12
to
On Feb 7, 8:15 pm, sangreel <sangr...@msn.com> wrote:
> On Feb 7, 9:34 am, Johnny Brananas <ravinmaven2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Thelfall was careful not to identify her as a Dymoke:
> On Feb 7, 9:34 am, Johnny Brananas <ravinmaven2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
"Erasmus Kirkener was probably born about 1495 in Germany or the Low
Country and there learned the art of making armour. Just where he came
from is unknown. On the tomb of his ganddaughter, Mildred (Manning)
Whitfield, in the church at Worth, Sussex, is his coat of arms impaled
with the Manning arms. Next to his in the quartering are the arms of
his wife's family. His arms resemble not one of the several Kirchner
arms of Germany which are illustrated in Siebermacher's Wappenbuch. He
apparently merely assumed these arms for himself, and, having no sons,
there was never any occasion to register them in later generations.
There is no record of such arms in Englad, according to Burke's
General Armory or Paworth's Ordinary of Arms. As for the arms of his
wife's family, they are the same as the Dymoke family of Lincolnshire,
but there is no other evidence of her identity and the arms may be the
same only by coincidence."
John Brooks Threlfall, Ancestry of the Children of John Brooks
Threlfall, (No city listed: privately printed, 1970).
> Doug Smith
Nathaniel Taylor
Feb 8, 2012, 8:15:55 AM2/8/12
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
At 5:11 PM -0800 2/7/12, sangreel wrote:
>
>http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=-2451588&CATLN=7&accessmethod=5
>Item reference C 1/879/35
>Record Summary
>Scope and content
>William Reymond, grocer, of London. v. The mayor and sheriffs of
>London.: Action of debt by an unknown Dutchman on a bill for 54s. 9d.
>Flemish given to Agnes Dymok of Antwerp and since satisfied.
>Certiorari.: London.
>Covering dates 1533-1538
>Held by
>The National Archives, Kew
>Legal status Public Record(s)
This is interesting! A chancery suit naming "Agnes Dymok of Antwerp"
>
>http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=-2451588&CATLN=7&accessmethod=5
>Item reference C 1/879/35
>Record Summary
>Scope and content
>William Reymond, grocer, of London. v. The mayor and sheriffs of
>London.: Action of debt by an unknown Dutchman on a bill for 54s. 9d.
>Flemish given to Agnes Dymok of Antwerp and since satisfied.
>Certiorari.: London.
>Covering dates 1533-1538
>Held by
>The National Archives, Kew
>Legal status Public Record(s)
in assocation with 'an unknown Dutchman' in 1533/8 may well be
germane here.
Searching PRO for Dymokes, especially Dymokes in London at this time,
brings up another chancery action referencing a "John, armourer of
the Tower" [sic, no surname] in connection with a "John Dymoke,
citizen and grocer of London," and others, in 1530 (C 241/283/2).
There is one other chancery ref. to John Dymoke, citizen & draper of
London, in the late 1520s, and another undated reference probably to
the same man.
This *could* be an urban or cross-channel mercantile family with some
connection to the Lincolnshire family, whose daughter Agnes married
the armourer Erasmus Kirkener.
I'd still like to see the achievement. The Threllfall passage on it
just quoted by Doug Smith uses slightly inaccurate terms to
describe what I would assume is the Manning (including quarterings)
sinister half of a Whitfield-Manning impalement -- unless it is
actually a separate achievement of Manning impaling Kirkener (plus
?Dymoke quartering).
Nat Taylor
J Cook
Feb 8, 2012, 9:32:14 AM2/8/12
to
On Feb 8, 8:15 am, Nathaniel Taylor <nltay...@nltaylor.net> wrote:
> Searching PRO for Dymokes, especially Dymokes in London at this time,
> brings up another chancery action referencing a "John, armourer of
> the Tower" [sic, no surname] in connection with a "John Dymoke,
> citizen and grocer of London," and others, in 1530 (C 241/283/2).
> There is one other chancery ref. to John Dymoke, citizen & draper of
> London, in the late 1520s, and another undated reference probably to
> the same man.
>
> This *could* be an urban or cross-channel mercantile family with some
> connection to the Lincolnshire family, whose daughter Agnes married
> the armourer Erasmus Kirkener.
<snip>
> Searching PRO for Dymokes, especially Dymokes in London at this time,
> brings up another chancery action referencing a "John, armourer of
> the Tower" [sic, no surname] in connection with a "John Dymoke,
> citizen and grocer of London," and others, in 1530 (C 241/283/2).
> There is one other chancery ref. to John Dymoke, citizen & draper of
> London, in the late 1520s, and another undated reference probably to
> the same man.
>
> This *could* be an urban or cross-channel mercantile family with some
> connection to the Lincolnshire family, whose daughter Agnes married
> the armourer Erasmus Kirkener.
> Nat Taylor
Very interesting indeed...
Letters of Henry VIII:
"According to the commandment, had sent William Bartilmewe and John
Dymok to Antwerp for provisions. Here they met on 6 Feb with Master
Davy, "king of heralds, with the King of Denmark"...
http://books.google.com/books?id=xoE9AAAAcAAJ&pg=PA1235&lpg=PA1235&dq=Dymok+Antwerp&source=bl&ots=uEr0nz9Qtr&sig=03Ni_KeusRfBMxwIca0lRaWzkDI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-IUyT56qI4L30gHPytXuBw&ved=0CFEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=dymo&f=false
Joe C
Page 1235
J Cook
Feb 8, 2012, 9:42:19 AM2/8/12
to
On Feb 8, 9:32 am, J Cook <joec...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 8, 8:15 am, Nathaniel Taylor <nltay...@nltaylor.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Searching PRO for Dymokes, especially Dymokes in London at this time,
> > brings up another chancery action referencing a "John, armourer of
> > the Tower" [sic, no surname] in connection with a "John Dymoke,
> > citizen and grocer of London," and others, in 1530 (C 241/283/2).
> > There is one other chancery ref. to John Dymoke, citizen & draper of
> > London, in the late 1520s, and another undated reference probably to
> > the same man.
>
> > This *could* be an urban or cross-channel mercantile family with some
> > connection to the Lincolnshire family, whose daughter Agnes married
> > the armourer Erasmus Kirkener.
> <snip>
> > Nat Taylor
>
> Very interesting indeed...
> Letters of Henry VIII:
> "According to the commandment, had sent William Bartilmewe and John
> Dymok to Antwerp for provisions. Here they met on 6 Feb with Master
> Davy, "king of heralds, with the King of Denmark"...
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=xoE9AAAAcAAJ&pg=PA1235&lpg=PA1235&dq...
> On Feb 8, 8:15 am, Nathaniel Taylor <nltay...@nltaylor.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Searching PRO for Dymokes, especially Dymokes in London at this time,
> > brings up another chancery action referencing a "John, armourer of
> > the Tower" [sic, no surname] in connection with a "John Dymoke,
> > citizen and grocer of London," and others, in 1530 (C 241/283/2).
> > There is one other chancery ref. to John Dymoke, citizen & draper of
> > London, in the late 1520s, and another undated reference probably to
> > the same man.
>
> > This *could* be an urban or cross-channel mercantile family with some
> > connection to the Lincolnshire family, whose daughter Agnes married
> > the armourer Erasmus Kirkener.
> <snip>
> > Nat Taylor
>
> Very interesting indeed...
> Letters of Henry VIII:
> "According to the commandment, had sent William Bartilmewe and John
> Dymok to Antwerp for provisions. Here they met on 6 Feb with Master
> Davy, "king of heralds, with the King of Denmark"...
>
>
> Joe C
> Page 1235
There is also mention near the same time period and place of a Sir
Robert Dymok, late treasurer of Tournai. Presumably he is the one in
the same Robert Dymoke, Champion, who died 1545
J Cook
Feb 8, 2012, 9:55:46 AM2/8/12
to
early as 1401 when one John Dymmok was mentioned as deceased.
13 Feb 1401 (Henry IV) Westminster
"Alexander Fetherstanhalgh of the county of Northumberland, esquire,
for not appearing before Robert Cherlton and his fellows, justices of
the Bench of the late king, to answer a plea that he render 10 l. to
Marjory late the wife of John Dymmok, John Glbert, John Dadyngton,
Robert Here and John Mere, executors of the will of John Dymmok, late
citizen and tailor of London."
sangreel
Feb 8, 2012, 10:49:36 AM2/8/12
to
them i will send via e-mail if need be.
They may not be in the correct order, but You will be able to see what
i am looking at, via the wall chart.
[URL=http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/10782902/Dymoke_127.jpg.html]
[IMG]http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t/10782902_Dymoke_127.jpg[/IMG][/
URL]
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/10782904/Dymoke_128.jpg.html
http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/10782909/Dymoke_131.jpg.html
[URL=http://www.turboimagehost.com/p/10782920/Dymoke_132.jpg.html]
[IMG]http://s3d4.turboimagehost.com/t1/10782920_Dymoke_132.jpg[/IMG][/
URL]
sangreel
Feb 8, 2012, 10:53:51 AM2/8/12
to
Thank you.
sangreel
Feb 8, 2012, 10:50:30 AM2/8/12
to
On Feb 7, 5:15 pm, sangreel <sangr...@msn.com> wrote:
sangreel
Feb 8, 2012, 11:32:32 AM2/8/12
to
Douglas Richardson
Feb 8, 2012, 1:32:43 PM2/8/12
to
Dear Michael ~
Thank you for posting a copy of the modern Whitfield chart which
displays "the shield of arms of Thomas & Mildred (Manning) Whitfield
in the church of St. Nicholas, Worth, Sussex, England 1630." Much
appreciated.
Checking around on the internet, a picture has been found online of
the floor slate for the tomb of Thomas Whitfield, Esq., and his wife,
Mildred Manning, in the church of Worth, Sussex. This picture may be
viewed at the following weblink:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/flambard/2524306543/in/photostream/
As we can see, the floor slate only displays the arms of Whitfield
impaling Manning. There is no other "shield of arms" depicted on the
floor slate. But even if there was, the slate stone would be absent
any tinctures (colors) for the alleged other family quarterings.
Assuming the larger shield of arms does exist, without the tinctures,
it would be impossible to identify the alleged arms of Dymoke as being
those of Dymoke, as the arms, two lions passant crowned, not only
belongs to the Dymoke family, but to also several other families,
including Merefield, Felton, and Harewell.
This morning I spoke with my good friend and colleague, Jim Terzian,
who is the resident expert on all things heraldic. His "expectation"
is that the larger shield of arms found on Michael's chart is a modern
creation and does not come from the floor slate of the Whitfield tomb
in the Worth church.
In other words, the "shield of arms" on the chart Michael has copied
for us can not be used to develop a reliable pedigree of the Whitfield
or Manning families. But ... even if the "shield of arms" does
exist, without the tinctures, one can not identify the supposed arms
of Dymoke as being those of the Dymoke family.
Hopefully Michael can provide additional information to prove that the
larger shield of arms, fully tinctured, does exist in the Worth,
Sussex church. If not, I'm afraid it's sour grapes.
Thank you for posting a copy of the modern Whitfield chart which
displays "the shield of arms of Thomas & Mildred (Manning) Whitfield
in the church of St. Nicholas, Worth, Sussex, England 1630." Much
appreciated.
Checking around on the internet, a picture has been found online of
the floor slate for the tomb of Thomas Whitfield, Esq., and his wife,
Mildred Manning, in the church of Worth, Sussex. This picture may be
viewed at the following weblink:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/flambard/2524306543/in/photostream/
As we can see, the floor slate only displays the arms of Whitfield
impaling Manning. There is no other "shield of arms" depicted on the
floor slate. But even if there was, the slate stone would be absent
any tinctures (colors) for the alleged other family quarterings.
Assuming the larger shield of arms does exist, without the tinctures,
it would be impossible to identify the alleged arms of Dymoke as being
those of Dymoke, as the arms, two lions passant crowned, not only
belongs to the Dymoke family, but to also several other families,
including Merefield, Felton, and Harewell.
This morning I spoke with my good friend and colleague, Jim Terzian,
who is the resident expert on all things heraldic. His "expectation"
is that the larger shield of arms found on Michael's chart is a modern
creation and does not come from the floor slate of the Whitfield tomb
in the Worth church.
In other words, the "shield of arms" on the chart Michael has copied
for us can not be used to develop a reliable pedigree of the Whitfield
or Manning families. But ... even if the "shield of arms" does
exist, without the tinctures, one can not identify the supposed arms
of Dymoke as being those of the Dymoke family.
Hopefully Michael can provide additional information to prove that the
larger shield of arms, fully tinctured, does exist in the Worth,
Sussex church. If not, I'm afraid it's sour grapes.
Nathaniel Taylor
Feb 8, 2012, 5:11:16 PM2/8/12
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
At 10:32 AM -0800 2/8/12, Douglas Richardson wrote:
In other words, the "shield of arms" on the chart Michael has copied
for us can not be used to develop a reliable pedigree of the Whitfield
or Manning families. But ... even if the "shield of arms" does
exist, without the tinctures, one can not identify the supposed arms
of Dymoke as being those of the Dymoke family.
Hopefully Michael can provide additional information to prove that the
larger shield of arms, fully tinctured, does exist in the Worth,
Sussex church.
Threlfall have written (as quoted by Doug Smith earlier in this thread):
"On the tomb of his [i.e. Erasmus Kirkener's] ganddaughter, Mildred
(Manning) Whitfield, in the church at Worth, Sussex, is his coat of arms
impaled with the Manning arms. Next to his in the quartering are the arms
of his wife's family. His arms resemble not one of the several Kirchner
arms of Germany which are illustrated in Siebermacher's Wappenbuch. He
apparently merely assumed these arms for himself, and, having no sons,
there was never any occasion to register them in later generations. There
is no record of such arms in England, according to Burke's General Armory
impaled with the Manning arms. Next to his in the quartering are the arms
of his wife's family. His arms resemble not one of the several Kirchner
arms of Germany which are illustrated in Siebermacher's Wappenbuch. He
apparently merely assumed these arms for himself, and, having no sons,
there was never any occasion to register them in later generations. There
or Paworth's Ordinary of Arms. As for the arms of his wife's family, they
are the same as the Dymoke family of Lincolnshire, but there is no other
evidence of her identity and the arms may be the same only by
coincidence."
Threlfall's paragraph is not all all consistent with the simple Whitfield -
are the same as the Dymoke family of Lincolnshire, but there is no other
evidence of her identity and the arms may be the same only by
coincidence."
Manning impalement on the tomb slab as pictured online. If it is unclear
what achievement Threlfall is talking about, it is clear that he was seeking
to identify quarterings in some sort of authentic achievement. He's
obviously not talking about his own published rendering of the arms! So,
what was it based on?
Michael (or someone who has the book) needs to go back to Threlfall's work
to see what other sources he could possibly be describing for arms allegedly
belonging to Erasmus Kirkener and his wife Agnes.
Nat Taylor
Douglas Richardson
Feb 8, 2012, 6:16:49 PM2/8/12
to
According to the modern chart which Mr. John Brooks Threlfall sent
Michael Warner, the chart claims that there is a "shield of arms" for
are the arms of Whitfield impaling Manning. No massive shield of
quartered arms.
What I think has happened is that someone about 1900 created an
elaborate shield of quartered arms to be displayed on the modern chart
but improperly labelled it as being a "shield of arms" taken from the
church in Worth, Sussex. On this modern chart, someone likewise
stated that Erasmus Kerkener's wife, Agnes, was a Dymoke. But no
evidence is cited to support that statement.
I hasten to add that if the larger "shield of arms" should exist, and,
if it is on the slate slab covering the Whitfield tomb, it would
surely have no tinctures on it.
What is a dead giveaway here is that no mention is made by anyone of a
stained glass window or a table tomb/effigies in the Worth church,
which window or table tomb/effigies might show tinctures (colors) for
the various arms. Rather all we are told is that the shield of arms
is taken from a "memorial" to Thomas Whitfield and his wife, or that
the "shield of arms" is found in the church. No window or table tomb/
effigies equals no tinctures.
I note that Mr. Threlfall makes mention of a Harleian manuscript which
he says contains a reference to the Kerkener arms. But this
manuscript would not be the same thing as the alleged "shield of arms"
in the Worth church.
Without tinctures and definitely without far more information, it is
impossible to identify the one alleged set of quartered arms, two
lions passant crowned, as being for the Dymoke family. Without
knowing the tinctures, these arms could belong to one of several
families.
As far as I can tell, the allegation that Erasmus Kerkener's wife,
Agnes, was a Dymoke is utterly without foundation. Hopefully
additional information can be supplied which will resolve this matter.
Michael Warner, the chart claims that there is a "shield of arms" for
Thomas & Mildred (Manning) Whitfield
"in the church of St. Nicholas, Worth, Sussex, England 1630."
However, all that is on the actual slate floor tomb for this couple
"in the church of St. Nicholas, Worth, Sussex, England 1630."
are the arms of Whitfield impaling Manning. No massive shield of
quartered arms.
What I think has happened is that someone about 1900 created an
elaborate shield of quartered arms to be displayed on the modern chart
but improperly labelled it as being a "shield of arms" taken from the
church in Worth, Sussex. On this modern chart, someone likewise
stated that Erasmus Kerkener's wife, Agnes, was a Dymoke. But no
evidence is cited to support that statement.
I hasten to add that if the larger "shield of arms" should exist, and,
if it is on the slate slab covering the Whitfield tomb, it would
surely have no tinctures on it.
What is a dead giveaway here is that no mention is made by anyone of a
stained glass window or a table tomb/effigies in the Worth church,
which window or table tomb/effigies might show tinctures (colors) for
the various arms. Rather all we are told is that the shield of arms
is taken from a "memorial" to Thomas Whitfield and his wife, or that
the "shield of arms" is found in the church. No window or table tomb/
effigies equals no tinctures.
I note that Mr. Threlfall makes mention of a Harleian manuscript which
he says contains a reference to the Kerkener arms. But this
manuscript would not be the same thing as the alleged "shield of arms"
in the Worth church.
Without tinctures and definitely without far more information, it is
impossible to identify the one alleged set of quartered arms, two
lions passant crowned, as being for the Dymoke family. Without
knowing the tinctures, these arms could belong to one of several
families.
As far as I can tell, the allegation that Erasmus Kerkener's wife,
Agnes, was a Dymoke is utterly without foundation. Hopefully
additional information can be supplied which will resolve this matter.
Message has been deleted
sangreel
Feb 8, 2012, 6:44:34 PM2/8/12
to
On Feb 8, 3:33 pm, Johnny Brananas <ravinmaven2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Threlfall's paragraph is not all all consistent with the simple Whitfield -
> > Manning impalement on the tomb slab as pictured online. If it is unclear
> > what achievement Threlfall is talking about, it is clear that he was seeking
> > to identify quarterings in some sort of authentic achievement. He's
> > obviously not talking about his own published rendering of the arms! So,
> > what was it based on?
>
> Yes, I feel sure there is a second rendering of a larger number of
> > Threlfall's paragraph is not all all consistent with the simple Whitfield -
> > Manning impalement on the tomb slab as pictured online. If it is unclear
> > what achievement Threlfall is talking about, it is clear that he was seeking
> > to identify quarterings in some sort of authentic achievement. He's
> > obviously not talking about his own published rendering of the arms! So,
> > what was it based on?
>
> arms (including the purported Dymoke arms) in the same church, perhaps
> on a wall plaque? I own the same large chart by Mr. Threlfall which
> Michael Warner has photographed (my copy is actually framed
> [poorly]!).
>
> If you look at the snippets from the Sussex Archaeological Collections
> article of 1928 (mentioned above) you'll see discussion of the arms of
> Manning, Chyrfold, Brockhill, Wallis, and Kirkener (or Kirkeby)--
> therefore this couldn't be the tile in the floor, as that only has
> Manning and Whitfield. Chyrfold, Brokchill, etc. are shown in the
> Greenwich Mannings' 1577 grant from the College of Arms as in the
> reference provided by Michael:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=I9sGAAAAYAAJ&dq=%22manning%20quarter...
>
> The only ones missing from this grant are "Kirkener" and "Dymoke."
>
> I'm pretty sure the 1928 Sussex Archaeological Collections have a
> discussion of the rendering Threlfall discusses.
Et al: You may request a copy of said achievement / grave monument
at this site. It is mounted on a wall, NOT on a floor. I have sent a
email as to the date it was created.
http://www.gravestonephotos.com/public/gravedetails.php?available=yes&fullname=Mildred%20Whitfeld&grave=150329
Message has been deleted
sangreel
Feb 8, 2012, 8:29:33 PM2/8/12
to
On Feb 8, 4:03 pm, Johnny Brananas <ravinmaven2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Et al: You may request a copy of said achievement / grave monument
> > at this site. It is mounted on a wall, NOT on a floor. I have sent a
> > email as to the date it was created.
>
> >http://www.gravestonephotos.com/public/gravedetails.php?available=yes...
> > Et al: You may request a copy of said achievement / grave monument
> > at this site. It is mounted on a wall, NOT on a floor. I have sent a
> > email as to the date it was created.
>
>
> Okay, yes, those arms above the brass are clearly the same ones
> Threlfall gives on his big chart.
Should one wish to read the "manning: book by John Brooks Threlfall,
one only has to click the following link:
http://tinyurl.com/7fnz9x4
https://dcms.lds.org/view/action/ieViewer.do?from_proxy=true&dps_pid=IE86743&dps_dvs=1328750592255~431&dps_pid=IE86743&change_lng=en
Nathaniel Taylor
Feb 8, 2012, 9:13:09 PM2/8/12
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
At 4:03 PM -0800 2/8/12, Johnny Brananas wrote:
> > Et al: You may request a copy of said achievement / grave monument
>> at this site. It is mounted on a wall, NOT on a floor. I have sent a
>> email as to the date it was created.
>>
> > Et al: You may request a copy of said achievement / grave monument
>> at this site. It is mounted on a wall, NOT on a floor. I have sent a
>> email as to the date it was created.
>>
>> http://www.gravestonephotos.com/public/gravedetails.php?available=yes...
>
>Okay, yes, those arms above the brass are clearly the same ones
>Threlfall gives on his big chart.
Yes indeedy! A bigger image, please, and of the whole brass (with text)!
>
>Okay, yes, those arms above the brass are clearly the same ones
>Threlfall gives on his big chart.
Nat Taylor
sangreel
Feb 8, 2012, 9:35:22 PM2/8/12
to
Shall we take this one step further?
Margaret Viscountess Binden, daughter of Henry manning and Katherine
Kirkener ALSO used these SAME coats of arms. [p.45] [Dymoke or
whoever] as her last quarter. You may view this at: http://tinyurl.com/7fnz9x4
or if that will not work,
https://dcms.lds.org/view/action/ieViewer.do?from_proxy=true&dps_pid=IE86743&dps_dvs=1328750592255~431&dps_pid=IE86743&change_lng=en
[ This site may take a few minutes to load on slow connections like
mine.... Ireland MUST modernize!]
So, I ask again, COULD this be the arms of Dymoke? And, if it is in
fact Dymoke, of what line did the arms descend from? Would a person
who had the title of V.Countess knowingly allow a coat of arms to be
used IF they were in fact NOT hers?
Waters in his well written book Gen. Gleanings in England, Vol II,
between pages 1322 and 1323 show Margaret, daughter of Henry Manning
and [K]Catherine Kirkener as the wife of Thomas Viscount Bindon, she
then married Edmond Ludlowe. This can be viewed here: http://preview.tinyurl.com/7aqpqkq
or if that does not work: http://ia700408.us.archive.org/12/items/
genealogicalglea02byuwate/genealogicalglea02byuwate.pdf [you may
have to go back a few pages due to the imaging process.]
Douglas, lets leave the Lional Dymoke question for another time. The
Lincolnshire pedigrees show 3 daughters and the time frame SEEMS to
match, but I will accept that it may be fact that he had only 2
daughters and the V=pedigree is incorrect. I have many errors in the V-
pedigrees that can be corrected by a little bit of research, but for
this one, except for your interpretation of a word I can find no other
source for his only haveing 2 daughters. If you have one, and without
cost, would you share this information with the list?. The V-pedigree
can be viewed here: http://tinyurl.com/7vt4kb6 or if that does not
work:
http://books.google.com/books?id=AqRCAAAAYAAJ&dq=dymoke%20%22lincolnshire%20pedigrees%22&pg=PA1204#v=onepage&q=dymoke%20%22lincolnshire%20pedigrees%22&f=false
Can we instead focus on the "Dymoke" issue?
Michael Delano Warner
mwa...@ireland.com [yes, I am a very stubborn Irishman]
Ps: On a side note, Why have some dismissed the Brandon - Hanning
link that "may" lead to royal lines? The pedigrees can be viewed
here:
http://tinyurl.com/82yznny or if that dies not work:
http://books.google.com/books?id=o79MAAA
AYAAJ&dq=visitation%20of%20kent&pg=PA165#v=onepage&q=manning&f=false
This connection also shown at:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=62800&strquery=hugh%20manning
THE MANOR OF DOWNE-COURT
John Petle of Trowmer, esq. died possessed of it in the 18th year of
king Richard II. in whose descendants this manor continued down to
John Petley, esq. (for so the name began now to be spelt) who lived in
the reign of king Henry VIII. He died without male issue, leaving by
Christiana his wife, daughter and heir of Thomas Philipott, four
daughters his coheirs; John Petle, the ancestor of this family, was
settled at Downe, in the reign of king Henry III. and bore for his
arms, Argent, two bends ingrailed, a canton sable. His son, Richard,
left two sons, of whom John, the eldest, was possessor of Downe manor,
in the reign of king Richard II. as above mentioned; and Richard left
two sons, John, ancestor to those of Halsted, now extinct, and
William, ancestor to those of this name seated at Filston, in
Shoreham, now likewise extinct, and those of Riverhead, in Sevenoke,
now remaining there. John Petle, eldest son of Richard, married
Juliana, daughter and heir of William Troumer of Downe, by whom he had
Thomas Petle, who died in the 9th year of king Henry V. and lies
buried with Isabel his wife, in this church. His son, John Petle,
married Alice, daughter and coheir of James Brampton, by whom he had
John Petley, who lived in the time of king Henry VIII. and left four
daughters his coheirs, as above mentioned. (fn. 1) Of whom Agnes, the
eldest, was married to John Manning, esq. of Downe, who, on the
division of their inheritance, became en titled to it. (fn. 2) He was
descended from John Manning, who was of Cowdham, and died in the 14th
year of king Henry IV. leaving John Manning, his son, who by Juliana,
daughter and heir of Richard Brockhill, had Hugh Manning of St. Mary
Cray, who married the daughter of Sir William Brandon, by whom he had
two sons, of whom Richard, the youngest, settled at St. Mary Cray,
where his posterity continued till within these few years; and John
Manning, the eldest, married Agnes Petley, as above mentioned. (fn. 3)
He died possessed of it in the 35th year of king Henry VIII. and lies
buried with Agnes his wife in this church.
sangreel
Feb 8, 2012, 10:17:21 PM2/8/12
to
On Feb 8, 6:35 pm, sangreel <sangr...@msn.com> wrote:
> On Feb 8, 5:29 pm, sangreel <sangr...@msn.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 8, 4:03 pm, Johnny Brananas <ravinmaven2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Et al: You may request a copy of said achievement / grave monument
> > > > at this site. It is mounted on a wall, NOT on a floor. I have sent a
> > > > email as to the date it was created.
>
> > > >http://www.gravestonephotos.com/public/gravedetails.php?available=yes...
>
> > > Okay, yes, those arms above the brass are clearly the same ones
> > > Threlfall gives on his big chart.
>
> > Should one wish to read the "manning: book by John Brooks Threlfall,
> > one only has to click the following link:
>
> >http://tinyurl.com/7fnz9x4
>
> >https://dcms.lds.org/view/action/ieViewer.do?from_proxy=true&dps_pid=...
>
> Shall we take this one step further?
>
> Margaret Viscountess Binden, daughter of Henry manning and Katherine
> Kirkener ALSO used these SAME coats of arms. [p.45] [Dymoke or
> whoever] as her last quarter. You may view this at:http://tinyurl.com/7fnz9x4
> or if that will not work,https://dcms.lds.org/view/action/ieViewer.do?from_proxy=true&dps_pid=...
> On Feb 8, 5:29 pm, sangreel <sangr...@msn.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 8, 4:03 pm, Johnny Brananas <ravinmaven2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Et al: You may request a copy of said achievement / grave monument
> > > > at this site. It is mounted on a wall, NOT on a floor. I have sent a
> > > > email as to the date it was created.
>
> > > >http://www.gravestonephotos.com/public/gravedetails.php?available=yes...
>
> > > Okay, yes, those arms above the brass are clearly the same ones
> > > Threlfall gives on his big chart.
>
> > Should one wish to read the "manning: book by John Brooks Threlfall,
> > one only has to click the following link:
>
> >http://tinyurl.com/7fnz9x4
>
> >https://dcms.lds.org/view/action/ieViewer.do?from_proxy=true&dps_pid=...
>
> Shall we take this one step further?
>
> Margaret Viscountess Binden, daughter of Henry manning and Katherine
> Kirkener ALSO used these SAME coats of arms. [p.45] [Dymoke or
> whoever] as her last quarter. You may view this at:http://tinyurl.com/7fnz9x4
> [ This site may take a few minutes to load on slow connections like
> mine.... Ireland MUST modernize!]
>
> So, I ask again, COULD this be the arms of Dymoke? And, if it is in
> fact Dymoke, of what line did the arms descend from? Would a person
> who had the title of V.Countess knowingly allow a coat of arms to be
> used IF they were in fact NOT hers?
>
> Waters in his well written book Gen. Gleanings in England, Vol II,
> between pages 1322 and 1323 show Margaret, daughter of Henry Manning
> and [K]Catherine Kirkener as the wife of Thomas Viscount Bindon, she
> then married Edmond Ludlowe. This can be viewed here:http://preview.tinyurl.com/7aqpqkq
> or if that does not work:http://ia700408.us.archive.org/12/items/
> genealogicalglea02byuwate/genealogicalglea02byuwate.pdf [you may
> have to go back a few pages due to the imaging process.]
>
> Douglas, lets leave the Lional Dymoke question for another time. The
> Lincolnshire pedigrees show 3 daughters and the time frame SEEMS to
> match, but I will accept that it may be fact that he had only 2
> daughters and the V=pedigree is incorrect. I have many errors in the V-
> pedigrees that can be corrected by a little bit of research, but for
> this one, except for your interpretation of a word I can find no other
> source for his only haveing 2 daughters. If you have one, and without
> cost, would you share this information with the list?. The V-pedigree
> can be viewed here:http://tinyurl.com/7vt4kb6or if that does not
> mine.... Ireland MUST modernize!]
>
> So, I ask again, COULD this be the arms of Dymoke? And, if it is in
> fact Dymoke, of what line did the arms descend from? Would a person
> who had the title of V.Countess knowingly allow a coat of arms to be
> used IF they were in fact NOT hers?
>
> Waters in his well written book Gen. Gleanings in England, Vol II,
> between pages 1322 and 1323 show Margaret, daughter of Henry Manning
> and [K]Catherine Kirkener as the wife of Thomas Viscount Bindon, she
> then married Edmond Ludlowe. This can be viewed here:http://preview.tinyurl.com/7aqpqkq
> or if that does not work:http://ia700408.us.archive.org/12/items/
> genealogicalglea02byuwate/genealogicalglea02byuwate.pdf [you may
> have to go back a few pages due to the imaging process.]
>
> Douglas, lets leave the Lional Dymoke question for another time. The
> Lincolnshire pedigrees show 3 daughters and the time frame SEEMS to
> match, but I will accept that it may be fact that he had only 2
> daughters and the V=pedigree is incorrect. I have many errors in the V-
> pedigrees that can be corrected by a little bit of research, but for
> this one, except for your interpretation of a word I can find no other
> source for his only haveing 2 daughters. If you have one, and without
> cost, would you share this information with the list?. The V-pedigree
> work:http://books.google.com/books?id=AqRCAAAAYAAJ&dq=dymoke%20%22lincolns...
>
> Can we instead focus on the "Dymoke" issue?
>
> Michael Delano Warner
> mwar...@ireland.com [yes, I am a very stubborn Irishman]
> Can we instead focus on the "Dymoke" issue?
>
> Michael Delano Warner
>
> Ps: On a side note, Why have some dismissed the Brandon - Hanning
> link that "may" lead to royal lines? The pedigrees can be viewed
> here:http://tinyurl.com/82yznny or if that dies not work:http://books.google.com/books?id=o79MAAA
> AYAAJ&dq=visitation%20of%20kent&pg=PA165#v=onepage&q=manning&f=false
>
> This connection also shown at:http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=62800&strquery=hu...
> Ps: On a side note, Why have some dismissed the Brandon - Hanning
> link that "may" lead to royal lines? The pedigrees can be viewed
> here:http://tinyurl.com/82yznny or if that dies not work:http://books.google.com/books?id=o79MAAA
> AYAAJ&dq=visitation%20of%20kent&pg=PA165#v=onepage&q=manning&f=false
>
More on the Manning = Brandon connection:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=62805&strquery=hugh%20manning
or: http://tinyurl.com/82yznny
ST. MARY CRAY:
[10 Vis. Co. Kent, anno 1619. [Pedigree of Manning.]
KEVINGTON: is a manor and seat in this parish, now vulgarly called
Kebingtown. (fn. 8) This estate was, for some generations, the
residence of the Mannings, a family of good account in this part of
Kent, who took their name from a town so called in Saxony, (fn. 9)
from whence they came very early into this kingdom. In the reign of
king Henry IV. John Manning (fn. 10) was settled in Cowdham, his son
of the same name was also of that parish, and died anno 14 Henry VI.
leaving by Juliana his wife, daughter and heir of Richard Brockhill,
relict of William Wallys, one son, Hugh Manning, who was of St. Mary
Cray, and married the daughter of Sir William Brandon, kinswoman to
Charles duke of Suffolk, by whom he had two sons, John, who settled at
Downe, from whom descended the Mannings of Downe, Halsted, and
Westerham; and Richard, who continued at St. Mary Cray, and had three
sons; of whom Richard, son of Thomas, the eldest, is said, in his
epitaph, to have been of Manning's-hall, the old family seat. He lies
buried in this church with the rest of this family.
The Heraldic Visitation of Kent, taken in the year 1619, gives the
arms of Manning, Gules, a cross patonce between four cinquefoils or.
Notwithstanding which it appears by their monuments and grave stones
in this church, which was the burial place of the family for many
generations, that the Mannings of this parish bore the cinquefoils in
their coat of arms slipt; those of Westerham bore, A chevron between
three cinquefoils slipt.
2 ]London Visitation :
http://books.google.com/books?id=iKwKAAAAYAAJ&dq=visitation%20of%20london&pg=PA74#v=snippet&q=manning&f=false
or: http://tinyurl.com/7aehpx3
3] Well writted work on the manning family: The genealogical and
biographical history of the Manning families of New England and
descendants : from the settlement in America to the present time : (1)
the William Manning family of Cambridge, Mass.;
https://dcms.lds.org/view/action/ieViewer.do?from_proxy=true&dps_pid=IE96042&dps_dvs=1328753644288~625&dps_pid=IE96042&change_lng=en
or: http://tinyurl.com/7ag4l7b
4] Manning sources: Genealogies in the Library of Congress: A
Bibliography By Library of Congress, Marion J. Kaminkow
http://books.google.com/books?id=80xh0XfWJZEC&lpg=PA182&dq=pedigree%20of%20manning&pg=PA182#v=onepage&q=pedigree%20of%20manning&f=false
Or
http://tinyurl.com/87ypxnc
5] The history and topographical survey of the county of Kent, Volume
2 By Edward Hasted
http://books.google.com/books?id=9S0tAAAAYAAJ&dq=pedigree%20of%20manning&pg=PA118#v=onepage&q=pedigree%20of%20manning&f=false
OR
http://tinyurl.com/8yzcsx9
6] Re: Margaret Viscountess Bindon, her husbands will:
Somersetshire wills By Frederick Brown, Frederick Arthur Crisp
http://books.google.com/books?id=JyYVAAAAQAAJ&dq=%22margaret%20viscountess%20bindon%22&pg=PA20#v=onepage&q=%22margaret%20viscountess%20bindon%22&f=false
http://tinyurl.com/6mbma5x
sangreel
Feb 8, 2012, 10:42:14 PM2/8/12
to
On Feb 8, 6:35 pm, sangreel <sangr...@msn.com> wrote:
> On Feb 8, 5:29 pm, sangreel <sangr...@msn.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 8, 4:03 pm, Johnny Brananas <ravinmaven2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Et al: You may request a copy of said achievement / grave monument
> > > > at this site. It is mounted on a wall, NOT on a floor. I have sent a
> > > > email as to the date it was created.
>
> > > >http://www.gravestonephotos.com/public/gravedetails.php?available=yes...
>
> > > Okay, yes, those arms above the brass are clearly the same ones
> > > Threlfall gives on his big chart.
>
> > Should one wish to read the "manning: book by John Brooks Threlfall,
> > one only has to click the following link:
>
> >http://tinyurl.com/7fnz9x4
>
> >https://dcms.lds.org/view/action/ieViewer.do?from_proxy=true&dps_pid=...
>
> Shall we take this one step further?
>
> Margaret Viscountess Binden, daughter of Henry manning and Katherine
> Kirkener ALSO used these SAME coats of arms. [p.45] [Dymoke or
> whoever] as her last quarter. You may view this at:http://tinyurl.com/7fnz9x4
> or if that will not work,https://dcms.lds.org/view/action/ieViewer.do?from_proxy=true&dps_pid=...
> On Feb 8, 5:29 pm, sangreel <sangr...@msn.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 8, 4:03 pm, Johnny Brananas <ravinmaven2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Et al: You may request a copy of said achievement / grave monument
> > > > at this site. It is mounted on a wall, NOT on a floor. I have sent a
> > > > email as to the date it was created.
>
> > > >http://www.gravestonephotos.com/public/gravedetails.php?available=yes...
>
> > > Okay, yes, those arms above the brass are clearly the same ones
> > > Threlfall gives on his big chart.
>
> > Should one wish to read the "manning: book by John Brooks Threlfall,
> > one only has to click the following link:
>
> >http://tinyurl.com/7fnz9x4
>
> >https://dcms.lds.org/view/action/ieViewer.do?from_proxy=true&dps_pid=...
>
> Shall we take this one step further?
>
> Margaret Viscountess Binden, daughter of Henry manning and Katherine
> Kirkener ALSO used these SAME coats of arms. [p.45] [Dymoke or
> whoever] as her last quarter. You may view this at:http://tinyurl.com/7fnz9x4
> [ This site may take a few minutes to load on slow connections like
> mine.... Ireland MUST modernize!]
>
> So, I ask again, COULD this be the arms of Dymoke? And, if it is in
> fact Dymoke, of what line did the arms descend from? Would a person
> who had the title of V.Countess knowingly allow a coat of arms to be
> used IF they were in fact NOT hers?
>
> Waters in his well written book Gen. Gleanings in England, Vol II,
> between pages 1322 and 1323 show Margaret, daughter of Henry Manning
> and [K]Catherine Kirkener as the wife of Thomas Viscount Bindon, she
> then married Edmond Ludlowe. This can be viewed here:http://preview.tinyurl.com/7aqpqkq
> or if that does not work:http://ia700408.us.archive.org/12/items/
> genealogicalglea02byuwate/genealogicalglea02byuwate.pdf [you may
> have to go back a few pages due to the imaging process.]
>
> Douglas, lets leave the Lional Dymoke question for another time. The
> Lincolnshire pedigrees show 3 daughters and the time frame SEEMS to
> match, but I will accept that it may be fact that he had only 2
> daughters and the V=pedigree is incorrect. I have many errors in the V-
> pedigrees that can be corrected by a little bit of research, but for
> this one, except for your interpretation of a word I can find no other
> source for his only haveing 2 daughters. If you have one, and without
> cost, would you share this information with the list?. The V-pedigree
> can be viewed here:http://tinyurl.com/7vt4kb6or if that does not
> mine.... Ireland MUST modernize!]
>
> So, I ask again, COULD this be the arms of Dymoke? And, if it is in
> fact Dymoke, of what line did the arms descend from? Would a person
> who had the title of V.Countess knowingly allow a coat of arms to be
> used IF they were in fact NOT hers?
>
> Waters in his well written book Gen. Gleanings in England, Vol II,
> between pages 1322 and 1323 show Margaret, daughter of Henry Manning
> and [K]Catherine Kirkener as the wife of Thomas Viscount Bindon, she
> then married Edmond Ludlowe. This can be viewed here:http://preview.tinyurl.com/7aqpqkq
> or if that does not work:http://ia700408.us.archive.org/12/items/
> genealogicalglea02byuwate/genealogicalglea02byuwate.pdf [you may
> have to go back a few pages due to the imaging process.]
>
> Douglas, lets leave the Lional Dymoke question for another time. The
> Lincolnshire pedigrees show 3 daughters and the time frame SEEMS to
> match, but I will accept that it may be fact that he had only 2
> daughters and the V=pedigree is incorrect. I have many errors in the V-
> pedigrees that can be corrected by a little bit of research, but for
> this one, except for your interpretation of a word I can find no other
> source for his only haveing 2 daughters. If you have one, and without
> cost, would you share this information with the list?. The V-pedigree
> work:http://books.google.com/books?id=AqRCAAAAYAAJ&dq=dymoke%20%22lincolns...
>
> Can we instead focus on the "Dymoke" issue?
>
> Michael Delano Warner
> mwar...@ireland.com [yes, I am a very stubborn Irishman]
> Can we instead focus on the "Dymoke" issue?
>
> Michael Delano Warner
>
> Ps: On a side note, Why have some dismissed the Brandon - Hanning
> link that "may" lead to royal lines? The pedigrees can be viewed
> here:http://tinyurl.com/82yznny or if that dies not work:http://books.google.com/books?id=o79MAAA
> AYAAJ&dq=visitation%20of%20kent&pg=PA165#v=onepage&q=manning&f=false
>
> This connection also shown at:http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=62800&strquery=hu...
> Ps: On a side note, Why have some dismissed the Brandon - Hanning
> link that "may" lead to royal lines? The pedigrees can be viewed
> here:http://tinyurl.com/82yznny or if that dies not work:http://books.google.com/books?id=o79MAAA
> AYAAJ&dq=visitation%20of%20kent&pg=PA165#v=onepage&q=manning&f=false
>
click on the link to view this book: "The ancestry of Reverend Henry
Whitfield (1590-1657) and his wife Dorothy Sheafe (159?-1669) of
Guilford, Connecticut" Page 45 is a copy of the arms used by Margaret
Manning Howard, Viscountess Bindon.
http://www.familysearch.org/eng/library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset.asp?display=titledetails&titleno=484998&disp=The+ancestry+of+Reverend+Henry+Whitfield%20%20&columns=*,0,0
http://tinyurl.com/6ufrvzd
See page 45 for the arms used by Margaret Manning Howard, Viscountess
Bindon.
Wjhonson
Feb 8, 2012, 11:20:29 PM2/8/12
to sang...@msn.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sangreel you can't simply cut and paste the URL you're viewing, it doesn't work.
It's a URL that is dependent on the condition of your own computer at the time.
You need to look for a button that says something like permanent citation or cite this page or something of that kind
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
the message
Wjhonson
Feb 9, 2012, 12:15:51 AM2/9/12
to sang...@msn.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Thanks for this reference.
I had already known that Maud (Dymoke) Hopton, was one of the three co-heiresses of Anne Cresnore, the first wife of Robert Dymoke of Kyme and of Scrivelsby, co Linc; Knt Banneret. They were not co-heiresses to their father, as by his second wife Anne Sparrow he had yet another daughter, and two sons who lived.
I also knew that this Maud d.s.p. as your source again confirms.
But I had not known the name of her husband. Since Arthur married his second wife Anne *by* Nov 1514, this means that Maud is quite likely the eldest of the three co-heiresses
Since Robert Dymoke was "aged 9" in 1470 when his father was beheaded, this makes Maud born between 1479 and 1502 to be at least 12 by her marriage date and then dead by 1514.
Her other two sisters, by the way are both ancestral to Princess Diana.
-----Original Message-----
From: sangreel <sang...@msn.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Subject: Re: Thomas Whitfield & Mildred Manning [Dymoke Question]
On Feb 7, 12:58 am, sangreel <sangr...@msn.com> wrote:
> On Feb 6, 10:49 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 6, 5:24 pm, sangreel <sangr...@msn.com> wrote:
>
> > < Lincolnshire Pedigrees, page 1202 are start the Dymoke pedigrees.
> > Page
> > < 1204 is where I found the notation that Lionel Dymoke had 3
> > daughters,
> > < but Douglas Richardson has informed me that Lionel Dymoke had only 2
> > < daughters. "Scrivelsby, the home of the champions: with some
> > account
> > < of the Marmion and ...etc. By Samuel Lodge" http://tinyurl.com/
> > 72gupaz
> > < seems to dispute DRs allegation that Lionel Dymoke had only 2
> > < daughters. I am NOT making the claim that Agnes Dymoke / Waller was
> > < the daughter of Lionel Dymoke as the 3 daughters seem to have been
> > < married to: Hopton, Skipwith and Goodrich.
>
> > Lionel Dymoke only had two surviving daughters. Feel free to post the
> > evidence I gave you privately.
>
> > DR
>
> You sent me a note:
> Michael ~
>
> You have a question? I suggest you read Sir John Rudstone's will
> dated 1531 which I referenced in my former newsgroup post. His will
> reads as follows: "To either of the doughters of the late Lyon
> Dymoke, my wifes uncle, a black gowne."
>
> The wording of this will suggests that Lionel Dymoke then had two
> living daughters (hence the word "either"). Had there been three
> daughters, he would have used the word "all" or "every." Likewise the
> Chancery suit I cited in my post dated 1519–21, mentions two living
> Dymoke daughters, not three.
>
> Given this evidence, your theory about Erasmus Kirkner's wife, Agnes,
> is not viable.
> **
>
> My own will and trust states: "To EITHER of my children who come to
> Ireland......." I have 5 living children so your statement does NOT
> hold water, for me.
> MDW
Another reference to Dymoke and Hopton:
http://books.google.com/books?id=TltIAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA10&ots=dkpJEnc3Ot&dq=dymoke%20hopton&pg=PA10#v=onepage&q=dymoke%20hopton&f=false
sangreel
Feb 9, 2012, 4:22:20 AM2/9/12
to
sangreel
Feb 9, 2012, 4:21:23 AM2/9/12
to
To read Threlfall's book go to:
1] Family Search, Library search [The LDS website]
http://www.familysearch.org/eng/Library/FHLC/frameset_fhlc.asp
2] click on: Surname Search
http://www.familysearch.org/eng/library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset.asp?display=surnamesearch&columns=*,0,0
3] Enter "Manning" and click on the link for "Threlfall, John B" The
ancestry of Rev. Henry Whitfield.....etc. Click on: "To view a
digital version of this item click here."
4] Look at page 45 of the book for the achievement of "Margaret
Manning Howard Countess Bindon" That achievement matches the one
shown on my tumbler account.
5] Read the rest of the book! It really is a good read JBT did a
grand job. Page 84 has another view of the arms in question.
Now, I had got a note that some may not be able to open a few or all
of my links. If this is so, please copy and paste the posting, e-mail
it to me
or just post a note here and I will gladly find work around.
Colin B. Withers
Feb 9, 2012, 9:55:57 AM2/9/12
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
I am trying to trace the Mowbray estate after William de Berkeley.
In January 1483 Parliament passed an act that gave the Mowbray estates to Richard, Duke of York and Norfolk, for his lifetime, and at his death to his heirs, if he had any. The rights of the two co-heirs at law were extinguished; William (Viscount) Berkeley had financial difficulties and King Edward IV paid off those debts. Berkeley then renounced his claims to the Mowbray estate before parliament in 1483.
On 15 January 1478, in St. Stephen's Chapel, Westminster, when he was about 4 years old, Richard, son of Edward IV, married the 5-year-old Anne de Mowbray, 8th Countess of Norfolk, who had inherited the vast Mowbray estates in 1476. Because York's father-in-law's dukedom had become extinct when Anne could not inherit it, he was created Duke of Norfolk and Earl Warennne on 7 February 1477. He was created Earl of Nottingham on 12 June 1476. When Anne de Mowbray died in November 1481 her estates should have passed to William, Viscount Berkeley and to John, Lord Howard. In January 1483 Parliament passed an act that gave the Mowbray estates to Richard, Duke of York and Norfolk, for his lifetime, and at his death to his heirs, if he had any. The rights of the two co-heirs at law were extinguished; Viscount Berkeley had financial difficulties and King Edward IV paid off those debts. Berkeley then renounced his claims to the Mowbray estate before parliament in 1483.
Of course, Richard, being one of the two Princes in The Tower, perished. But what happened to the Mowbray estate?
By 1541 a large part of the Mowbray estate (the Vescy lands) was in the hands of the Percys, Dukes of Northumberland, but how it passed from William Berkeley, via Richard, Duke of York, to the Percys still puzzles me.
Can anyone fill in the gap?
Wibs
In January 1483 Parliament passed an act that gave the Mowbray estates to Richard, Duke of York and Norfolk, for his lifetime, and at his death to his heirs, if he had any. The rights of the two co-heirs at law were extinguished; William (Viscount) Berkeley had financial difficulties and King Edward IV paid off those debts. Berkeley then renounced his claims to the Mowbray estate before parliament in 1483.
On 15 January 1478, in St. Stephen's Chapel, Westminster, when he was about 4 years old, Richard, son of Edward IV, married the 5-year-old Anne de Mowbray, 8th Countess of Norfolk, who had inherited the vast Mowbray estates in 1476. Because York's father-in-law's dukedom had become extinct when Anne could not inherit it, he was created Duke of Norfolk and Earl Warennne on 7 February 1477. He was created Earl of Nottingham on 12 June 1476. When Anne de Mowbray died in November 1481 her estates should have passed to William, Viscount Berkeley and to John, Lord Howard. In January 1483 Parliament passed an act that gave the Mowbray estates to Richard, Duke of York and Norfolk, for his lifetime, and at his death to his heirs, if he had any. The rights of the two co-heirs at law were extinguished; Viscount Berkeley had financial difficulties and King Edward IV paid off those debts. Berkeley then renounced his claims to the Mowbray estate before parliament in 1483.
Of course, Richard, being one of the two Princes in The Tower, perished. But what happened to the Mowbray estate?
By 1541 a large part of the Mowbray estate (the Vescy lands) was in the hands of the Percys, Dukes of Northumberland, but how it passed from William Berkeley, via Richard, Duke of York, to the Percys still puzzles me.
Can anyone fill in the gap?
Wibs
Message has been deleted
Douglas Richardson
Feb 9, 2012, 1:30:12 PM2/9/12
to
Dear Michael ~
Great work. I'm glad that you located a picture of the other
"monument" for Thomas Whitfield, Esq., and his wife, Mildred Manning,
in the church of Worth, Sussex which displays the larger shield of
arms. Thank you for posting a weblink for a picture of this
monument. It was good to have it confirmed that the larger "shield of
arms" actually exists.
Thanks also for posting a corresponding list of the quarterings for
Margaret Manning, Viscountess Bindon, published by Aubrey in 1838.
The last Manning quartering listed for Margaret Manning by Aubrey is
"Sable two lions passant Or." These are supposedly the very arms
claimed by Threlfall and the wall chart to be the arms of the Dymoke
family.
The Dymoke arms, however, are: Sable, two lions passant argent crowned
or [Reference: Genealogist 4 (1880): 19 (1562–4 Vis. Lincolnshire)].
As you can see, the two sets of arms do not match. As such, this
evidence appears to remove the Dymoke family from the Manning-Kirkener
family pedigree.
Assuming the lions are crowned (as indicated on the Whitfield shield
of arms), you may possibly have a Harewell descent. The 1612
Visitation of Essex indicates that the Harewell family arms are:
Sable, two lions passant, crowned or. However, if the lions are not
crowned, then these arms would neither be Dymoke or Harewell.
Great work. I'm glad that you located a picture of the other
"monument" for Thomas Whitfield, Esq., and his wife, Mildred Manning,
in the church of Worth, Sussex which displays the larger shield of
arms. Thank you for posting a weblink for a picture of this
monument. It was good to have it confirmed that the larger "shield of
arms" actually exists.
Thanks also for posting a corresponding list of the quarterings for
Margaret Manning, Viscountess Bindon, published by Aubrey in 1838.
The last Manning quartering listed for Margaret Manning by Aubrey is
"Sable two lions passant Or." These are supposedly the very arms
claimed by Threlfall and the wall chart to be the arms of the Dymoke
family.
The Dymoke arms, however, are: Sable, two lions passant argent crowned
or [Reference: Genealogist 4 (1880): 19 (1562–4 Vis. Lincolnshire)].
As you can see, the two sets of arms do not match. As such, this
evidence appears to remove the Dymoke family from the Manning-Kirkener
family pedigree.
Assuming the lions are crowned (as indicated on the Whitfield shield
of arms), you may possibly have a Harewell descent. The 1612
Visitation of Essex indicates that the Harewell family arms are:
Sable, two lions passant, crowned or. However, if the lions are not
crowned, then these arms would neither be Dymoke or Harewell.
John
Feb 9, 2012, 2:21:42 PM2/9/12
to
(following p. 28), you'll see that the lions in the quartering
indicated to be Dymoke are in fact crowned. There is no mention of
tinctures, of course, but this portrayal does not agree with the
quartering of Viscountess Bindon mentioned above - which is likely in
error in its description of this particular quartering, in both
omitting the crowns and mis-stating the tincture of the lions.
There is one interesting difference in the arms in Threlfall's line
drawing which is not apparent in the picture of the arms which Michael
has posted. The supposed Dymoke quartering quartering in the line
drawing has a star in the upper left corner - a feature which is not
mentioned in any description of the arms of Dymoke of Lincolnshire
that I've seen. If the rendering is accurate, that might suggest that
the arms are in fact those of a different family.
J Cook
Feb 9, 2012, 2:48:03 PM2/9/12
to
>
> - Show quoted text -
Doens't the mullet (star) simply indicate cadency (specifically,
descent from a 3rd son?) Or does that not apply here?
Joe C
Douglas Richardson
Feb 9, 2012, 2:51:06 PM2/9/12
to
My comments are interspersed below. DR
On Feb 9, 12:21 pm, John <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
< If you look at the drawing of the arms in Threlfall's Whitfield book
< (following p. 28), you'll see that the lions in the quartering
< indicated to be Dymoke are in fact crowned. There is no mention of
< tinctures, of course, but this portrayal does not agree with the
< quartering of Viscountess Bindon mentioned above - which is likely
in
< error in its description of this particular quartering, in both
< omitting the crowns and mis-stating the tincture of the lions.
While the crowns on the lions may have been omitted by Aubrey, it is
doubtful he got the tinctures stated wrong. He doubtless wrote down
exactly what he saw on the painted wood panels. He saw gold lions on
a black field. If he had seen silver lions, you would have indicated
as such.
Even so, there is no way to tell when or who painted the arms on the
Whitfield monument. You can't assume the tinctures on the Whitfield
monument are correct and the tinctures described by Aubrey for
Viscountess Bindon are wrong. It would be better to say that they
differ from one another, until you have evidence to show which version
is correct.
A more important point is that there is no reason to suppose that the
last set of quartered arms for the Viscountess Bindon belong to the
Dymoke family, or that they belong to the family of Erasmus Kirkener's
wife, except that such a claim was made on a wall chart about 1900!
The supposed Dymoke arms can just as easily be the arms of Erasmus
Kirkener's mother or grandmother, as they can be for his wife. This
point was overlooked by Threlfall and by the person who created the
Whitfield wall chart. And, if Aubrey has correctly described this set
of arms, it does not match the known arms for the Dymoke family.
As far as I know, there is no evidence in play which indicates the
maiden name of Agnes, wife of Erasmus Kirkener.
On Feb 9, 12:21 pm, John <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:
< If you look at the drawing of the arms in Threlfall's Whitfield book
< (following p. 28), you'll see that the lions in the quartering
< indicated to be Dymoke are in fact crowned. There is no mention of
< tinctures, of course, but this portrayal does not agree with the
< quartering of Viscountess Bindon mentioned above - which is likely
in
< error in its description of this particular quartering, in both
< omitting the crowns and mis-stating the tincture of the lions.
doubtful he got the tinctures stated wrong. He doubtless wrote down
exactly what he saw on the painted wood panels. He saw gold lions on
a black field. If he had seen silver lions, you would have indicated
as such.
Even so, there is no way to tell when or who painted the arms on the
Whitfield monument. You can't assume the tinctures on the Whitfield
monument are correct and the tinctures described by Aubrey for
Viscountess Bindon are wrong. It would be better to say that they
differ from one another, until you have evidence to show which version
is correct.
A more important point is that there is no reason to suppose that the
last set of quartered arms for the Viscountess Bindon belong to the
Dymoke family, or that they belong to the family of Erasmus Kirkener's
wife, except that such a claim was made on a wall chart about 1900!
The supposed Dymoke arms can just as easily be the arms of Erasmus
Kirkener's mother or grandmother, as they can be for his wife. This
point was overlooked by Threlfall and by the person who created the
Whitfield wall chart. And, if Aubrey has correctly described this set
of arms, it does not match the known arms for the Dymoke family.
As far as I know, there is no evidence in play which indicates the
maiden name of Agnes, wife of Erasmus Kirkener.
Message has been deleted
Douglas Richardson
Feb 9, 2012, 4:26:33 PM2/9/12
to
John ~
Here is a weblink to the entry for your Robert Waller in the online
database based on Boyd's Citizens of London:
http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I233895&tree=London
And, here is weblink to the entry for Henry Vynarde, mercer, who is
likely the same person as Henry Vynar [?] who witnessed Robert
Waller's will:
http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I185914&tree=London
Here is a weblink to the entry for your Robert Waller in the online
database based on Boyd's Citizens of London:
http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I233895&tree=London
And, here is weblink to the entry for Henry Vynarde, mercer, who is
likely the same person as Henry Vynar [?] who witnessed Robert
Waller's will:
http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I185914&tree=London
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
Message has been deleted
sangreel
Feb 9, 2012, 7:30:29 PM2/9/12
to
My copy of "Heraldry Illustrated...etc", printed 1897 with over 700
engravings states:
Plate 28
Distinction of Houses:
First House, 3rd male,a Mullet, but it also has a Mulled for the 3rd
house, first male child.
I have sent a letter last week requesting a better picture of the
achievement from the church in worth Sussex to determine if in fact a
Mullet is on the Coat of Arms. Today I also sent a letter, and may
take a boat ride to the college of arms in London to seek further
information on the achievement of Margaret Manning Howard, Viscountess
Bindon. I feel the college of arms should be able to set the matter
right. I was able to blow up the picture i posted on my tumbler
account and the crowns are in fact golden, but I will wait for a
further enlarged picture to prove the case as to the "mullet"
question.
Cheers,
Michael
sangreel
Feb 9, 2012, 7:37:37 PM2/9/12
to
1631.
As to the silver lions crowned or., You have a good point. Why color
the lions silver if they should be or?
I can assume that the college of arms will be able to set the matter
to rights.
We will have to wait for a reply or my trip there later next month.
Good thing I live in Ireland so!
sangreel
Feb 9, 2012, 7:46:56 PM2/9/12
to
On Feb 9, 3:45 pm, Johnny Brananas <ravinmaven2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> _Letters of Denization and Acts of Naturalization for Aliens ..._
>
> DYMOCK, John, son of John Dymock (late one of the gentlemen ushers of
> the King's Chamber) and Beatrice, daughter of John Van Cleve, his
> wife, born at Antwerp in Brabant. 1542.
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=53o9AAAAYAAJ&q=%22john+dymock%22+ant...
That information connects with:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails....
Item reference C 1/879/35
Record Summary
Scope and content
William Reymond, grocer, of London. v. The mayor and sheriffs of
London.: Action of debt by an unknown Dutchman on a bill for 54s. 9d.
Flemish given to Agnes Dymok of Antwerp and since satisfied.
Certiorari.: London.
Covering dates 1533-1538
Held by
The National Archives, Kew
Legal status Public Record(s)
Q: Did this John Dymoke have a child named Agnes? Or....
> _Letters of Denization and Acts of Naturalization for Aliens ..._
>
> DYMOCK, John, son of John Dymock (late one of the gentlemen ushers of
> the King's Chamber) and Beatrice, daughter of John Van Cleve, his
> wife, born at Antwerp in Brabant. 1542.
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=53o9AAAAYAAJ&q=%22john+dymock%22+ant...
That information connects with:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails....
Item reference C 1/879/35
Record Summary
Scope and content
William Reymond, grocer, of London. v. The mayor and sheriffs of
London.: Action of debt by an unknown Dutchman on a bill for 54s. 9d.
Flemish given to Agnes Dymok of Antwerp and since satisfied.
Certiorari.: London.
Covering dates 1533-1538
Held by
The National Archives, Kew
Legal status Public Record(s)
Q: Did this John Dymoke have a child named Agnes? Or....
Message has been deleted
sangreel
Feb 9, 2012, 8:21:49 PM2/9/12
to
Shipton, Co. Ox., in the achievement of arms for Thomas Whitfield and
M. Manning has a Mullet as well, but Red.
In the 1600's was it common to show in achievements such as this one?
Achievements such as this what "house" the arms descended were from?
This Mullet, is also noted in the arms for George Manning/ Henry
Manning. IE: Archaeologia cantiana, Volume 6, By Kent Archaeological
Society, Page 272:
http://books.google.com/books?id=I9sGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA272&dq=1432+%22manning+pedigree%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Wmw0T6SLIYqSiQKO0920Cg&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=1432%20%22manning%20pedigree%22&f=false
http://tinyurl.com/7qkadwx
This can also be seen at Shakespeare's family: being a record of the
ancestors and descendants of ... By Charlotte Carmichael Stopes, Page
209
"The Ardernes of Cottesford and Kirtlington, Oxford, bore the same
arms as the Park Hall Ardens, with a mullet for difference..." See
Harl. MS., 1095, f. 93. Harl. Public, Visit. Oxford. Sir Thomas
Phillipps' " Oxfordshire Visitations."
http://books.google.com/books?id=j1RDAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA209&dq=arden+of+oxfordshire&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0W00T7OsIYqpiALwkeWdCg&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=arden%20of%20oxfordshire&f=false
http://tinyurl.com/7584uac
The Visitations of Warwickshire also have Arden pedigrees that some
may wish to view. I, at times have a hard time finding the pedigrees
online, but I do have bound copies in my office here. My Father and
Grandfather were both rare book collectors and when Da died I was
granted the complete collection, including a great portion of the
Visitations of England and Ireland, a few never re-printed as they
would buy up all they could from old families down on their luck.
when I pass they all go to Trinity College, where they should be!
[Too damp in this old pile]
sangreel
Feb 9, 2012, 8:48:25 PM2/9/12
to
On Feb 9, 4:30 pm, sangreel <sangr...@msn.com> wrote:
marks of distinction on most of the individual quarters of the
complete achievement.
Whitfield [9th house], Arden [3rd house] , "Dymoke" (3rd house) [if
that is the qtr] and one at the connecting corner of Chyrrfold,
Brockhill,Brampton & Shelly [2nd house]
"Heraldry Illustrated...etc", printed 1897 states: [Page 23] The
daughters of each house should always bear the family distinction
borne by their father....... and ought to be made as distinct and
conspicuous as possible."
More to research needed.... but one part caught my eye on page 22: "A
mode of varying coats of arms involved inverting a paternal
tincture." IE: Gold to Silver or Silver to Gold, etc. This was
common with a younger house. So, as I read it, the silver of the Lions
does NOT knock this qtr. out as a Dymoke coat of arms, it may just be
a younger house, as noted by the distinction of the mullet.
I shall look forward to the reply from the college of arms. The chk i
wrote better give us something to go by! I also requested more
clarification on the Whitfield -Brandon question.
sangreel
Feb 9, 2012, 8:58:12 PM2/9/12
to
On Feb 9, 4:51 pm, Johnny Brananas <ravinmaven2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Q: Did this John Dymoke have a child named Agnes? Or....
>
> Maybe a sister?
> > Q: Did this John Dymoke have a child named Agnes? Or....
>
VERY VERY good point!!! I took a look at yer reply and coffee shot
out me nose! How could I have missed that option!
grand, truly GRAND!
Don Stone
Feb 9, 2012, 9:52:52 PM2/9/12
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com, sangreel
Threlfall's comments on this issue (Whitfield book, p. 117):
"The Visitation pedigree of the Manning family has [Hugh Manning]
married to the aunt of Charles Brandon, Duke of Suffolk, that is, a
daughter of Sir William Brandon. No documentary evidence of this
marriage or any relationship can be found. Probably there was some more
remote relationship that gave rise to the legend. If true, she would
have to have been one of the two Margarets, daughters of Sir William and
Elizabeth (Wingfield) Brandon, and there would have been a royal lineage
thru the Wingfields."
The claim below (from Hasted's History and Topographical Survey of the
County of Kent) that Hugh Manning married a daughter of Sir William
Brandon comes from this Visitation of Kent.
Comments by Gary Boyd Roberts in Royal Descents of 600 Immigrants
(2008), p. lxxviii:
"Could Hugh John, named in the 1491 probate of Sir William Brandon, be
Sir William's son-in-law (husband of the perhaps deceased Margaret
Brandon the younger?) and identical with Hugh (son of John) Manning."
-- Don Stone
On 2/8/2012 7:35 PM, sangreel wrote:
> Ps: On a side note, Why have some dismissed the Brandon - Manning
"The Visitation pedigree of the Manning family has [Hugh Manning]
married to the aunt of Charles Brandon, Duke of Suffolk, that is, a
daughter of Sir William Brandon. No documentary evidence of this
marriage or any relationship can be found. Probably there was some more
remote relationship that gave rise to the legend. If true, she would
have to have been one of the two Margarets, daughters of Sir William and
Elizabeth (Wingfield) Brandon, and there would have been a royal lineage
thru the Wingfields."
The claim below (from Hasted's History and Topographical Survey of the
County of Kent) that Hugh Manning married a daughter of Sir William
Brandon comes from this Visitation of Kent.
Comments by Gary Boyd Roberts in Royal Descents of 600 Immigrants
(2008), p. lxxviii:
"Could Hugh John, named in the 1491 probate of Sir William Brandon, be
Sir William's son-in-law (husband of the perhaps deceased Margaret
Brandon the younger?) and identical with Hugh (son of John) Manning."
-- Don Stone
On 2/8/2012 7:35 PM, sangreel wrote:
> Ps: On a side note, Why have some dismissed the Brandon - Manning
J Cook
Feb 10, 2012, 12:21:48 AM2/10/12
to
On Feb 9, 9:52 pm, Don Stone <d...@donstonetech.com> wrote:
John Dymmock Amsterdam:
"Un premier relevè date de Paques 1567 constate la presence a Londres,
depuis deux ans, de Jonekin, une veuve et de ses enfants, Abraham et
Streven Vanharwick. Ils sont qualifies de Dutchmen, qui, aujourd'hui,
doit se traduire par Hollandais, mais qui, au XVI siecle, s'appliquait
aux habitants de Pays-Bas tout entiers. Qu'li s'agisse de la veuve et
des enfants de Steven can Herwijck, cela ne fait plus aucun doute
lorsqu'on a consulte la liste se l'annee suivante. En ce temps, dans
la paroisse de Saint-Dustan, dans la maison du marchand Melchior Layt,
habitait Johan Harwicke, veuve, et Stephen, son fils; ils avaient
comme proprietaire M. DYMOCK et frequentaient l'elise reformee des
Pays-Bas. Or on sait que Steven van Herwijck avait fait le portrait
de Maria Newce, femme de John Dymock. Il est done certain que Jeanne
van Harwick et son fils Stephen sont bien la femme et l'enfant de
Steven van Herwijck..."
http://www.numisbel.be/1922_M.pdf
John Dymock, merchant of London abroad:
"The most important evidence here is the mention of the merchant John
Dymock (c1493-1585). As we shall see below, Dymock’s relationship with
Steven van Herwijck indicates that van Herwijck, the acknowledged
medallist, must also
have been a painter – and therefore capable of producing some of the
works given to the ‘paynter Steven’ in the guise
of Stephen van der Meulen. In 1561 John Dymock went on a semi-official
visit to the
court of Erik XIV of Sweden. 12 Details of the voyage appear in
answers given by Dymock to the Privy Council on 6 August
1562. Four other men were interrogated about the same matter on the
same day.13 Dymock’s account records that he had
travelled to Sweden described as ‘the queen’s servant’ in order to
sell jewels and furs to Erik. On the eve of his departure he had met
‘a certain honest Dutchman, a cunning painter, who should make the
haven at Dover, to know if it
were possible to get him his denizenship, so that he might work here
quietly’. Dymock had persuaded this Dutchman
to join the expedition so that ‘he could get the King’s picture’ ..."
http://www.dnhdesign.com/BAJwebsite/BAJ-BG-STEVEN.pdf
This artist studied under William Van Cleve
Visitation of Hertfordshire gives the above John Dimock's wife as
"Mary, mar. to John Dimock" as daughter of "Clement Newce of London,
mercer and Mary, dau. of John Davy of Ely"
Joe C
John Dymmock Amsterdam:
"Un premier relevè date de Paques 1567 constate la presence a Londres,
depuis deux ans, de Jonekin, une veuve et de ses enfants, Abraham et
Streven Vanharwick. Ils sont qualifies de Dutchmen, qui, aujourd'hui,
doit se traduire par Hollandais, mais qui, au XVI siecle, s'appliquait
aux habitants de Pays-Bas tout entiers. Qu'li s'agisse de la veuve et
des enfants de Steven can Herwijck, cela ne fait plus aucun doute
lorsqu'on a consulte la liste se l'annee suivante. En ce temps, dans
la paroisse de Saint-Dustan, dans la maison du marchand Melchior Layt,
habitait Johan Harwicke, veuve, et Stephen, son fils; ils avaient
comme proprietaire M. DYMOCK et frequentaient l'elise reformee des
Pays-Bas. Or on sait que Steven van Herwijck avait fait le portrait
de Maria Newce, femme de John Dymock. Il est done certain que Jeanne
van Harwick et son fils Stephen sont bien la femme et l'enfant de
Steven van Herwijck..."
http://www.numisbel.be/1922_M.pdf
John Dymock, merchant of London abroad:
"The most important evidence here is the mention of the merchant John
Dymock (c1493-1585). As we shall see below, Dymock’s relationship with
Steven van Herwijck indicates that van Herwijck, the acknowledged
medallist, must also
have been a painter – and therefore capable of producing some of the
works given to the ‘paynter Steven’ in the guise
of Stephen van der Meulen. In 1561 John Dymock went on a semi-official
visit to the
court of Erik XIV of Sweden. 12 Details of the voyage appear in
answers given by Dymock to the Privy Council on 6 August
1562. Four other men were interrogated about the same matter on the
same day.13 Dymock’s account records that he had
travelled to Sweden described as ‘the queen’s servant’ in order to
sell jewels and furs to Erik. On the eve of his departure he had met
‘a certain honest Dutchman, a cunning painter, who should make the
haven at Dover, to know if it
were possible to get him his denizenship, so that he might work here
quietly’. Dymock had persuaded this Dutchman
to join the expedition so that ‘he could get the King’s picture’ ..."
http://www.dnhdesign.com/BAJwebsite/BAJ-BG-STEVEN.pdf
This artist studied under William Van Cleve
Visitation of Hertfordshire gives the above John Dimock's wife as
"Mary, mar. to John Dimock" as daughter of "Clement Newce of London,
mercer and Mary, dau. of John Davy of Ely"
Joe C
J Cook
Feb 10, 2012, 12:32:25 AM2/10/12
to
On Feb 10, 12:21 am, J Cook <joec...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 9, 9:52 pm, Don Stone <d...@donstonetech.com> wrote:
John Dimock
> On Feb 9, 9:52 pm, Don Stone <d...@donstonetech.com> wrote:
And here is that same John Dimock, draper of London, son of John
Dimock and husband to Mary Newce [Nuce]. Left a will 1585. His wife
in 1586.
http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I192151&tree=London
sangreel
Feb 10, 2012, 6:31:52 AM2/10/12
to
County genealogies of Hertfordshire, P. 175, by William Berry,
"Pedigree of Newce", [No arms described, Burkes has the arms of Newce
as:Sa two palets Ar on a canton Erm a mascle Gu.] starting with
William Newce, has Mary Newce, daughter of Clement Newce and Mary
Danmar as the wife of John Dymoke, but only has as the children of
this union: Dorothy and Elizabeth, no notation of a child, Agnes.
The Visitation of Hertfordshire, 1572 - 1634, P. 154, Appendix II,
has another child of said Clement Newce, named Sarah, married to a
William Moore.
Q;
J Cook
Feb 10, 2012, 7:12:42 AM2/10/12
to
On Feb 10, 6:31 am, sangreel <sangr...@msn.com> wrote:
> The Visitation of Hertfordshire, 1572 - 1634, P. 154, Appendix II,
> has another child of said Clement Newce, named Sarah, married to a
> William Moore.
>
> Q;
Yes; he would also be too young to be a father of Agnes. It would
> The Visitation of Hertfordshire, 1572 - 1634, P. 154, Appendix II,
> has another child of said Clement Newce, named Sarah, married to a
> William Moore.
>
> Q;
have to be his father John who would be the right age to be a father
of Agnes, right?
Message has been deleted
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Nathaniel Taylor
Feb 10, 2012, 2:47:52 PM2/10/12
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
At 9:03 AM -0800 2/10/12, Johnny Brananas wrote:
>"Maria Newce, epouse de John Dimock,et mourut a Londres entre 1565 et
>1567."
>
>http://books.google.com/books?id=rkAOAQAAMAAJ&q=dimock+newce&dq=dimock+newce&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TE01T9qzDI7AtgfFn-XSCg&ved=0CGYQ6AEwCDgK
This is part of a long biographical encyclopedia entry on Steven van
Herwijck, the medallist of that cool medal (I wasn't aware of
Tudor-era medals struck for regular folks like shown in that
catalogue); and the whole text says it was van Herwijck who died at
London between 1565 & 1567 (not Maria, just one in a list of folks
whose medals he struck in his last sojourn there). For the
masochistic among you, this whole volume (and dozens more) can be
downloaded from the website of the Academie Royale de Belgique:
http://www.academieroyale.be/cgi?usr=6m64txtk4c&lg=fr&pag=907&tab=227&rec=2977&frm=360&id=4041&flux=12986301
I see you've got a will for this Maria Dymoke; she and that John are
obviously not the parents of Agnes K, but we knew that was maybe a
generation off. We still don't know if the circle of this Utrecht /
London John Dymoke is barking up a tree anywhere near the right
planet (let alone forest). But it is theoretically possible that
those arms *could* be for some sort of Dymoke, since we've identified
Dymokes in the right places and circles that seem to intersect with
Kirchner & Waller.
Nat Taylor
>"Maria Newce, epouse de John Dimock,et mourut a Londres entre 1565 et
>1567."
>
>http://books.google.com/books?id=rkAOAQAAMAAJ&q=dimock+newce&dq=dimock+newce&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TE01T9qzDI7AtgfFn-XSCg&ved=0CGYQ6AEwCDgK
This is part of a long biographical encyclopedia entry on Steven van
Herwijck, the medallist of that cool medal (I wasn't aware of
Tudor-era medals struck for regular folks like shown in that
catalogue); and the whole text says it was van Herwijck who died at
London between 1565 & 1567 (not Maria, just one in a list of folks
whose medals he struck in his last sojourn there). For the
masochistic among you, this whole volume (and dozens more) can be
downloaded from the website of the Academie Royale de Belgique:
http://www.academieroyale.be/cgi?usr=6m64txtk4c&lg=fr&pag=907&tab=227&rec=2977&frm=360&id=4041&flux=12986301
I see you've got a will for this Maria Dymoke; she and that John are
obviously not the parents of Agnes K, but we knew that was maybe a
generation off. We still don't know if the circle of this Utrecht /
London John Dymoke is barking up a tree anywhere near the right
planet (let alone forest). But it is theoretically possible that
those arms *could* be for some sort of Dymoke, since we've identified
Dymokes in the right places and circles that seem to intersect with
Kirchner & Waller.
Nat Taylor
Message has been deleted
Nathaniel Taylor
Feb 10, 2012, 4:17:53 PM2/10/12
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
>Yah, I would go so far as to say that *it could be quite possible*
>that Agnes was a Dymoke/ Dymock and was a sister of John Dymock, and
>therefore daughter of John Dymock by Beatrice van Cleve. This is
>based on the "Dymoke" arms among Kirkener descendants, the fact of a
>Dymoke witness to the Waller will, and the general metal-working and
>artistic prusuits of the van Cleves, Erasmus Kirkener, and even John
>Dymock the English agent.
>> general metal-working and artistic pursuits
You know, I was thinking about that.
We're often chided for being obsessed with royal descents. Here, in
Erasmus Kirchner, is a pretty damn interesting ancestor -- much more
so than most of the grandchildren of the peers who duked it out at
Bosworth -- and probably even more interesting than the Mountjoy kids
who got to be tutored by Erasmus (the other Erasmus -- Desiderius
Erasmus of Rotterdam). I would very much like to have met someone
who was involved making something like this:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VHwM1RS9bbM/TbbQ0n5OyrI/AAAAAAAAAJk/6CQf4IVmDJQ/s1600/amazing_fun_weird_cool_hornet-helmet-medieval-armor_20090724154337382.jpg
(I know, ridiculously long URL, sort of gives it away)
Actually this one was made on the continent and presented to Henry
VIII, but his own team probably got involved making similar stuff.
I bet they threw good parties.
Nat Taylor
>that Agnes was a Dymoke/ Dymock and was a sister of John Dymock, and
>therefore daughter of John Dymock by Beatrice van Cleve. This is
>based on the "Dymoke" arms among Kirkener descendants, the fact of a
>Dymoke witness to the Waller will, and the general metal-working and
>artistic prusuits of the van Cleves, Erasmus Kirkener, and even John
>Dymock the English agent.
>> general metal-working and artistic pursuits
You know, I was thinking about that.
We're often chided for being obsessed with royal descents. Here, in
Erasmus Kirchner, is a pretty damn interesting ancestor -- much more
so than most of the grandchildren of the peers who duked it out at
Bosworth -- and probably even more interesting than the Mountjoy kids
who got to be tutored by Erasmus (the other Erasmus -- Desiderius
Erasmus of Rotterdam). I would very much like to have met someone
who was involved making something like this:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VHwM1RS9bbM/TbbQ0n5OyrI/AAAAAAAAAJk/6CQf4IVmDJQ/s1600/amazing_fun_weird_cool_hornet-helmet-medieval-armor_20090724154337382.jpg
(I know, ridiculously long URL, sort of gives it away)
Actually this one was made on the continent and presented to Henry
VIII, but his own team probably got involved making similar stuff.
I bet they threw good parties.
Nat Taylor
Message has been deleted
J Cook
Feb 10, 2012, 8:10:13 PM2/10/12
to
On Feb 10, 5:34 pm, Johnny Brananas <ravinmaven2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > I bet they threw good parties.
>
> > Nat Taylor
>
> At least there was a lot to drink.
> > I bet they threw good parties.
>
> > Nat Taylor
>
>
> I have a beautiful postcard from the British Museum showing a full
> suit of armor by Erasmus Kerkener.
I have the same "good feeling" about the connections of this Dimock
family, merchants in London who were traversing the continent with
regularity being connected to Kirkeners and Manning family. Figuring
out how this Dimock family is connected to the Dymokes of Scrivesbly
is another matter entirely.
I hadn't really read about my ancestor Erasmus Kirkener previously; I
agree he is much more fascinating that "another" knight or soldier. I
wish it was possible to learn more about his ancestry and origin, but
the prospects of that seem slim indeed.
Joe C
Don Stone
Feb 10, 2012, 8:13:08 PM2/10/12
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
On 2/7/2012 10:34 AM, Johnny Brananas wrote:
> Erasmus' widow Agnes mentioned her "cousin Susanna Hinde" in her will
> of 1591 -- this might be a clue.
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=caNCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA1329&dq=%22agnes+kirkiner%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=P18xT5bYOMfEtgfB663tBg&ved=0CD4Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22agnes%20kirkiner%22&f=false
This extract is from _Genealogical Gleanings in England_ by Henry
Fitz-Gilbert Waters. Threlfall's abstract (p. 81 of Whitfield book) of
Agnes Kirkener's will gives this person as "cousin Susanna Lynde" and
itemizes a large number of bequests to her. The first witness of the
will is John Lynde, vicar of East Greenwich. The third is William
Borman, probably the same William Boreman alias Hinde to whom the
Kirkener property was sold in 1593, as mentioned in the link below and
in Threlfall's Whitfield book on p. 82.
> The name might really be Boreman alias Hinde:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?ei=P18xT5bYOMfEtgfB663tBg&id=_REoAQAAMAAJ&dq=%22agnes+kirkiner%22&q=hinde#search_anchor
If the name really is "Susanna Lynde" (I'm reluctant to distrust the
reading by Henry F. Waters), there could be a connection with the family
of Simon Lynde of London, England, and Boston, Massachusetts, whose 1597
Geneva Bible is still in the hands of descendants. Simon Lynde was a
son of Enoch Lynde. Enoch, born about 1585, was a resident of London
who "was a merchant engaged in foreign trade, and was for some years
connected with the postal service between England and Holland...,"
according to _The Diaries of Benjamin Lynde and of Benjamin Lynde, Jr_
(available as a Google book), p. v. Of Enoch's arms, this book says
(pp. iii-iv), "The arms borne by him, as engraved upon his seal and
elsewhere, suggest the probability that the family came originally from
the Low Countries. These arms are nowhere recorded in England, and
differ materially from those of other families bearing the name of
Lynde, while they are almost identical with those granted in Holland to
the noble family of Van der Linden, as recorded in the College of Arms
at the Hague, a branch of which family is said to have emigrated to
England at no very remote period, possibly during the religious
dissensions of the sixteenth century."
For more on Enoch Lynde, see
http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I3197&tree=Nixon,
which identifies him as a shipping merchant in the Netherlands.
-- Don Stone
> Erasmus' widow Agnes mentioned her "cousin Susanna Hinde" in her will
> of 1591 -- this might be a clue.
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=caNCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA1329&dq=%22agnes+kirkiner%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=P18xT5bYOMfEtgfB663tBg&ved=0CD4Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22agnes%20kirkiner%22&f=false
This extract is from _Genealogical Gleanings in England_ by Henry
Fitz-Gilbert Waters. Threlfall's abstract (p. 81 of Whitfield book) of
Agnes Kirkener's will gives this person as "cousin Susanna Lynde" and
itemizes a large number of bequests to her. The first witness of the
will is John Lynde, vicar of East Greenwich. The third is William
Borman, probably the same William Boreman alias Hinde to whom the
Kirkener property was sold in 1593, as mentioned in the link below and
in Threlfall's Whitfield book on p. 82.
> The name might really be Boreman alias Hinde:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?ei=P18xT5bYOMfEtgfB663tBg&id=_REoAQAAMAAJ&dq=%22agnes+kirkiner%22&q=hinde#search_anchor
If the name really is "Susanna Lynde" (I'm reluctant to distrust the
reading by Henry F. Waters), there could be a connection with the family
of Simon Lynde of London, England, and Boston, Massachusetts, whose 1597
Geneva Bible is still in the hands of descendants. Simon Lynde was a
son of Enoch Lynde. Enoch, born about 1585, was a resident of London
who "was a merchant engaged in foreign trade, and was for some years
connected with the postal service between England and Holland...,"
according to _The Diaries of Benjamin Lynde and of Benjamin Lynde, Jr_
(available as a Google book), p. v. Of Enoch's arms, this book says
(pp. iii-iv), "The arms borne by him, as engraved upon his seal and
elsewhere, suggest the probability that the family came originally from
the Low Countries. These arms are nowhere recorded in England, and
differ materially from those of other families bearing the name of
Lynde, while they are almost identical with those granted in Holland to
the noble family of Van der Linden, as recorded in the College of Arms
at the Hague, a branch of which family is said to have emigrated to
England at no very remote period, possibly during the religious
dissensions of the sixteenth century."
For more on Enoch Lynde, see
http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I3197&tree=Nixon,
which identifies him as a shipping merchant in the Netherlands.
-- Don Stone
Don Stone
Feb 11, 2012, 12:37:54 AM2/11/12
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
If the correct reading in Agnes Kirkener's will is "cousin Susanna
Hinde", then there might well be a connection between Agnes's numerous
bequests to cousin Susanna Hinde and the later sale of the Kirkener
property in East Greenwich to William Boreman alias Hinde, locksmyth.
Agnes's will bequeaths to cousin Susanna a great deal more than to any
of Agnes's children or grandchildren: "the round bed whereon now I lie,
with the uppermost featherbed with the best coverlid that now lyeth upon
the little bed, a blue blanket, a white Spanish blanket and a kersey
blanket with the curtains which now are about the bed. Item, to my
cousin Susanna three pair of flaxen sheets and three pair of towen
sheets. Item, I give her more two long table cloths, one of diaper and
the other plain, two dozen of new napkins plain, ..." and towels and
plates and dishes and platters, and "one brass pot," etc., etc.
Then not far from the time of the probate of this will, the property and
house containing these many, many items is sold to William Boreman alias
Hinde of East Greenwich, locksmyth. But if all of this is true, then
why in Agnes's will is her cousin called Susanna Hinde but the witness
is William Borman, not William Borman alias Hinde?
I note that Sir William Boreman's Foundation, a charity of the Drapers'
Company, is still in existence, granting "financial assistance to young
people who are ordinarily resident in Greenwich and Lewisham." Sir
William Boreman, Clerk of the Green Cloth to King Charles II, died in
1686, I believe. He had a brother Robert Boreman, D.D., who died in
1675 at Greenwich.
-- Don
Hinde", then there might well be a connection between Agnes's numerous
bequests to cousin Susanna Hinde and the later sale of the Kirkener
property in East Greenwich to William Boreman alias Hinde, locksmyth.
Agnes's will bequeaths to cousin Susanna a great deal more than to any
of Agnes's children or grandchildren: "the round bed whereon now I lie,
with the uppermost featherbed with the best coverlid that now lyeth upon
the little bed, a blue blanket, a white Spanish blanket and a kersey
blanket with the curtains which now are about the bed. Item, to my
cousin Susanna three pair of flaxen sheets and three pair of towen
sheets. Item, I give her more two long table cloths, one of diaper and
the other plain, two dozen of new napkins plain, ..." and towels and
plates and dishes and platters, and "one brass pot," etc., etc.
Then not far from the time of the probate of this will, the property and
house containing these many, many items is sold to William Boreman alias
Hinde of East Greenwich, locksmyth. But if all of this is true, then
why in Agnes's will is her cousin called Susanna Hinde but the witness
is William Borman, not William Borman alias Hinde?
I note that Sir William Boreman's Foundation, a charity of the Drapers'
Company, is still in existence, granting "financial assistance to young
people who are ordinarily resident in Greenwich and Lewisham." Sir
William Boreman, Clerk of the Green Cloth to King Charles II, died in
1686, I believe. He had a brother Robert Boreman, D.D., who died in
1675 at Greenwich.
-- Don
Message has been deleted
Nathaniel Taylor
Feb 11, 2012, 12:07:08 PM2/11/12
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
At 10:37 PM -0700 2/10/12, Don Stone wrote:
>If the correct reading in Agnes Kirkener's will is "cousin Susanna
>Hinde", then there might well be a connection between Agnes's numerous
>bequests to cousin Susanna Hinde and the later sale of the Kirkener
>property in East Greenwich to William Boreman alias Hinde, locksmyth.
Does someone have the PCC pdf of Agnes's will?
>If the correct reading in Agnes Kirkener's will is "cousin Susanna
>Hinde", then there might well be a connection between Agnes's numerous
>bequests to cousin Susanna Hinde and the later sale of the Kirkener
>property in East Greenwich to William Boreman alias Hinde, locksmyth.
I'm not a descendant so won't pay the £3.50, but
I'd be happy to take a look-see.
Nat Taylor
Don Stone
Feb 11, 2012, 2:59:30 PM2/11/12
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
On 2/11/2012 9:01 AM, Johnny Brananas wrote:
> Thanks to Don for reminding about Hinde vs. Lynde. I kept thinking I
> remembered that Agnes was related to a "Rev. John Somebody," and now
> realize it was an inference from Threlfall's reading of Susanna's name
> and the witness Rev. John Lynde.
>
> I agree with Don that Hinde is probably correct (Waters' reading), but
> someone should probably verify this.
>
> It's my thought that Susanna Hinde might be the same as Leonard
> Gebbel's daughter Susan. Erasmus K.'s will mentions his kinsman
> Gebbel, and I think he was also an artisan or armorer at Greenwich.
Yes, according to Threlfall's Whitfield book, pp. 79-81, Leonard
Geball/Gyble/etc. of East Greenwich was a nephew of Erasmus Kirkener,
inferred from the fact that Erasmus willed "to Leonerd Geball my kinsman
my second best gown," and then in 1569 Leonard willed "the cassock that
was my uncles's" to William Mighell, gentleman, the first of the two
overseers named in this document. (Threlfall identifies William Mighell
as Erasmus's grandson, but the grandson would have been a boy in 1569.
I think instead that this William Mighell, overseer, was Erasmus's
son-in-law of that name, who died testate in 1585, father of the
grandson William Mighell. Incidentally, this grandson was involved in
the 1593 sale of the Kirkener property in East Greenwich to William
Boreman alias Hinde, who by John's hypothesis above might be the husband
of a daughter of Leonard Geball/Gyble).
Leonard Geball/Gyble could be a nephew by blood of Erasmus Kirkener, a
son of Erasmus's sister. Alternatively, he could be a nephew by blood
of Erasmus's wife Agnes, but this seems less likely.
Leonard Geball/Gyble's 1569 will bequeaths "the house that I now dwell
in" and another one to his wife Mabel "for her natural life, then the
same two houses to Susanna my daughter & to the issue of her body..."
Note that this is Susanna, not Susan. (Erasmus and Agnes had a daughter
Susan.)
So when Agnes Kirkener refers to "cousin Susanna Hinde" (if that is the
proper reading), she could be referring to her late husband's sister's
granddaughter. Unfortunately, that would not be a blood relative (or
spouse of a blood relative) of Agnes and thus wouldn't help us identify
Agnes.
-- Don
> Thanks to Don for reminding about Hinde vs. Lynde. I kept thinking I
> remembered that Agnes was related to a "Rev. John Somebody," and now
> realize it was an inference from Threlfall's reading of Susanna's name
> and the witness Rev. John Lynde.
>
> I agree with Don that Hinde is probably correct (Waters' reading), but
> someone should probably verify this.
>
> It's my thought that Susanna Hinde might be the same as Leonard
> Gebbel's daughter Susan. Erasmus K.'s will mentions his kinsman
> Gebbel, and I think he was also an artisan or armorer at Greenwich.
Yes, according to Threlfall's Whitfield book, pp. 79-81, Leonard
Geball/Gyble/etc. of East Greenwich was a nephew of Erasmus Kirkener,
inferred from the fact that Erasmus willed "to Leonerd Geball my kinsman
my second best gown," and then in 1569 Leonard willed "the cassock that
was my uncles's" to William Mighell, gentleman, the first of the two
overseers named in this document. (Threlfall identifies William Mighell
as Erasmus's grandson, but the grandson would have been a boy in 1569.
I think instead that this William Mighell, overseer, was Erasmus's
son-in-law of that name, who died testate in 1585, father of the
grandson William Mighell. Incidentally, this grandson was involved in
the 1593 sale of the Kirkener property in East Greenwich to William
Boreman alias Hinde, who by John's hypothesis above might be the husband
of a daughter of Leonard Geball/Gyble).
Leonard Geball/Gyble could be a nephew by blood of Erasmus Kirkener, a
son of Erasmus's sister. Alternatively, he could be a nephew by blood
of Erasmus's wife Agnes, but this seems less likely.
Leonard Geball/Gyble's 1569 will bequeaths "the house that I now dwell
in" and another one to his wife Mabel "for her natural life, then the
same two houses to Susanna my daughter & to the issue of her body..."
Note that this is Susanna, not Susan. (Erasmus and Agnes had a daughter
Susan.)
So when Agnes Kirkener refers to "cousin Susanna Hinde" (if that is the
proper reading), she could be referring to her late husband's sister's
granddaughter. Unfortunately, that would not be a blood relative (or
spouse of a blood relative) of Agnes and thus wouldn't help us identify
Agnes.
-- Don
Don Stone
Feb 11, 2012, 5:34:43 PM2/11/12
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
correct reading is "cosen Susanna Hinde." (Waters was right.) You can
see the dot of the 'i' in Hinde, and the name is definitely different
from the last name of the first witness, the vicar John Lynde. Further,
the first letter of cosen Susanna's last name matches well with the
first letter of the last name of the second witness, Jacob Helder.
-- Don
Douglas Richardson
Feb 12, 2012, 11:06:29 AM2/12/12
to
On Feb 11, 9:01 am, Johnny Brananas <ravinmaven2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
< I agree with Don that Hinde is probably correct (Waters' reading),
but
< someone should probably verify this.
The name in the will is Susanna Hinde. The witness is John Lynde.
< I agree with Don that Hinde is probably correct (Waters' reading),
but
< someone should probably verify this.
When you have a moment, can you forward me a copy of Robert Waller's
will? Thanks.
Douglas Richardson
Feb 12, 2012, 11:07:57 AM2/12/12
to
On Feb 11, 12:59 pm, Don Stone <d...@donstonetech.com> wrote:
< Leonard Geball/Gyble's 1569 will bequeaths "the house that I now
dwell
< in" and another one to his wife Mabel "for her natural life, then
the
< same two houses to Susanna my daughter & to the issue of her
body..."
< Note that this is Susanna, not Susan. (Erasmus and Agnes had a
daughter
< Susan.)
Susan and Susanna are completely interchangeable. Much like Anne and
< Leonard Geball/Gyble's 1569 will bequeaths "the house that I now
dwell
< in" and another one to his wife Mabel "for her natural life, then
the
< same two houses to Susanna my daughter & to the issue of her
body..."
< Note that this is Susanna, not Susan. (Erasmus and Agnes had a
daughter
< Susan.)
Anna.
DR
joejo...@gmail.com
Dec 28, 2012, 6:42:12 PM12/28/12
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
On Saturday, February 11, 2012 4:37:54 PM UTC+11, Don Stone wrote:
> the later sale of the Kirkener property in East Greenwich to William Boreman alias Hinde, locksmyth. <
Hi, my interest is in William Boreman - witnessing the will and the 1593 purchase of the Kirkener property are the earliest mentions I've found for him.
> the later sale of the Kirkener property in East Greenwich to William Boreman alias Hinde, locksmyth. <
From The Armourer and His Craft By Charles John Ffoulkes, page 125:
Boreman, W., also called Alias Hynde. 1599-1609. (Appointed armourer at Greenwich, 1599. Will dated 1645.)
In 1607 he was granted the office of King's Locksmith and in 1638 he was paid for changing the locks at Whitehall and St James' Park.
He was buried at St Alfege, Greenwich, on 13 Jul 1646. An inscription at the church:
Gulielmus Boreman Armig. Qui cum Reginae Elizabethiea Regibusq. Jacobo et Carolo (decursis LX. Annis) fidelissime servisset, Animam Deo pacate reddidit ultimo die Junii, Anno salutis MDCLVI. Aetatisque suae LXXXII.
Recumbunt hic pariter Jana conjux ipsius probatissima, Amborum Filiae Susanna et Jana. Hoc insusurrant omnes Posteris. “Quod fumus, eritis.”
I don't if Jane was his only wife or who her family was and I haven't found the will mentioned in Ffoulkes's book. As far as I can tell, one of his sons was Sir William Boreman.
Does anyone have any more information on him and (stupid question time) does the alias Hynde mean that Hynde was his family name but for some reason he's using Boreman?
Thanks
Olwem
Canberra
Wjhonson
Dec 30, 2012, 1:38:12 AM12/30/12
to joejo...@gmail.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
I've seen alias used in two ways during this period.
One is where a person changes their name because of a stipulation in an inheritence.
For example a childless maternal uncle requires the change in order to inherit his estate.
The other is where a person is illegitimate, so one name would be his birth mother's the other his birth father's.
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
the message
One is where a person changes their name because of a stipulation in an inheritence.
For example a childless maternal uncle requires the change in order to inherit his estate.
The other is where a person is illegitimate, so one name would be his birth mother's the other his birth father's.
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
the message
sangreel
Jun 29, 2013, 10:49:55 AM6/29/13
to
http://sangreel.tumblr.com/image/17312282365
This monument was placed 1631. One would think they knew who the quarters were for. The search goes on. It may be sour grapes, but considering all the KNOWN facts, we must not dismiss the possible link.
On Wednesday, February 8, 2012 10:32:43 AM UTC-8, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Dear Michael ~
>
>
>
> Thank you for posting a copy of the modern Whitfield chart which
>
> displays "the shield of arms of Thomas & Mildred (Manning) Whitfield
>
> in the church of St. Nicholas, Worth, Sussex, England 1630." Much
>
> appreciated.
>
>
>
> Checking around on the internet, a picture has been found online of
>
> the floor slate for the tomb of Thomas Whitfield, Esq., and his wife,
>
> Mildred Manning, in the church of Worth, Sussex. This picture may be
>
> viewed at the following weblink:
>
>
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/flambard/2524306543/in/photostream/
>
>
>
> As we can see, the floor slate only displays the arms of Whitfield
>
> impaling Manning. There is no other "shield of arms" depicted on the
>
> floor slate. But even if there was, the slate stone would be absent
>
> any tinctures (colors) for the alleged other family quarterings.
>
>
>
> Assuming the larger shield of arms does exist, without the tinctures,
>
> it would be impossible to identify the alleged arms of Dymoke as being
>
> those of Dymoke, as the arms, two lions passant crowned, not only
>
> belongs to the Dymoke family, but to also several other families,
>
> including Merefield, Felton, and Harewell.
>
>
>
> This morning I spoke with my good friend and colleague, Jim Terzian,
>
> who is the resident expert on all things heraldic. His "expectation"
>
> is that the larger shield of arms found on Michael's chart is a modern
>
> creation and does not come from the floor slate of the Whitfield tomb
>
> in the Worth church.
>
>
>
> In other words, the "shield of arms" on the chart Michael has copied
>
> for us can not be used to develop a reliable pedigree of the Whitfield
>
> or Manning families. But ... even if the "shield of arms" does
>
> exist, without the tinctures, one can not identify the supposed arms
>
> of Dymoke as being those of the Dymoke family.
>
>
>
> Hopefully Michael can provide additional information to prove that the
>
> larger shield of arms, fully tinctured, does exist in the Worth,
>
> Sussex church. If not, I'm afraid it's sour grapes.
This monument was placed 1631. One would think they knew who the quarters were for. The search goes on. It may be sour grapes, but considering all the KNOWN facts, we must not dismiss the possible link.
On Wednesday, February 8, 2012 10:32:43 AM UTC-8, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Dear Michael ~
>
>
>
> Thank you for posting a copy of the modern Whitfield chart which
>
> displays "the shield of arms of Thomas & Mildred (Manning) Whitfield
>
> in the church of St. Nicholas, Worth, Sussex, England 1630." Much
>
> appreciated.
>
>
>
> Checking around on the internet, a picture has been found online of
>
> the floor slate for the tomb of Thomas Whitfield, Esq., and his wife,
>
> Mildred Manning, in the church of Worth, Sussex. This picture may be
>
> viewed at the following weblink:
>
>
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/flambard/2524306543/in/photostream/
>
>
>
> As we can see, the floor slate only displays the arms of Whitfield
>
> impaling Manning. There is no other "shield of arms" depicted on the
>
> floor slate. But even if there was, the slate stone would be absent
>
> any tinctures (colors) for the alleged other family quarterings.
>
>
>
> Assuming the larger shield of arms does exist, without the tinctures,
>
> it would be impossible to identify the alleged arms of Dymoke as being
>
> those of Dymoke, as the arms, two lions passant crowned, not only
>
> belongs to the Dymoke family, but to also several other families,
>
> including Merefield, Felton, and Harewell.
>
>
>
> This morning I spoke with my good friend and colleague, Jim Terzian,
>
> who is the resident expert on all things heraldic. His "expectation"
>
> is that the larger shield of arms found on Michael's chart is a modern
>
> creation and does not come from the floor slate of the Whitfield tomb
>
> in the Worth church.
>
>
>
> In other words, the "shield of arms" on the chart Michael has copied
>
> for us can not be used to develop a reliable pedigree of the Whitfield
>
> or Manning families. But ... even if the "shield of arms" does
>
> exist, without the tinctures, one can not identify the supposed arms
>
> of Dymoke as being those of the Dymoke family.
>
>
>
> Hopefully Michael can provide additional information to prove that the
>
> larger shield of arms, fully tinctured, does exist in the Worth,
>
> Sussex church. If not, I'm afraid it's sour grapes.
sangreel
Jun 29, 2013, 11:24:42 AM6/29/13
to
I have stopped further searches for information as to the Dymoke question as it relates to Manning / Whitfield, for now as the cost is getting out of hand. I feel VERY strongly that the Dymoke link will be solved one way or another.
I have moved onto the Arden link in the Whitfield / Manning pedigree. This coat of arms is also shown in these links:
http://sangreel.tumblr.com/image/17267137362
http://sangreel.tumblr.com/image/17312282365
Namely: Nicholas Arden of Shipton, Oxfordshire stated to have been the father of Alice Arden wife to James Brampton. I am not looking for a "Royal" connection, I just want to know who his father was. Here are my notes as entered into my PAF program.... a few years ago before I got caught up with the Dymoke question:
RESEARCH NOTES:
***********************
3rd son of Henry De Arden?
***
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2005-02/1107558312
From: Don Stone <don....@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Another Muhammad
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 23:05:12 GMT
References: <c664e10e.05020...@posting.google.com> <4201B230...@san.rr.com> <c664e10e.0502...@posting.google.com>
In-Reply-To: <c664e10e.0502...@posting.google.com>
David Hopkins wrote:
> For those interested in where I had this line going here it is:
[snip]
> 10 Sir Henry Arden b. ABT 1346 Park Hall, Warwickshire, England d.
> 1400
> 11 Nicholas Arden b. ABT 1370 Park Hall, Warwickshire, England
> 12 Alice Arden b. ABT 1396 Downe, Bromley, Kent, England
> m. James Brampton b. ABT 1392 Downe, Bromley, Kent, England
> 13 Alice Brampton b. ABT 1424 Downe, Bromley, Kent, England
> m. John Petley b. ABT 1420 Downe, Bromley, Kent, England d. 1467
> Downe, Bromley, Kent, England
From J. B. Threlfall's Henry Whitfield book, p. 157:
1] James Brampton .... married Joan _____, perhaps about 1400. She was living
in 1411, as the following Husting deed shows. However, Harleian Manuscript
1432, a pedigree chart, shows only that he married Alice Arden, daughter and
coheiress of Nicholas Arden of Shipton in Oxfordshire. Either he had
another wife, Alice, or there is an error and Joan was nee Arden.
2] 3 October 1408 - James Brampton, son of William Brampton, lately citizen and
fishmonger, and Joan my wife, have granted to Alexander Farnell, tailor, and
Agnes his wife those lands, shops, solars, etc. which lately we had jointly
by the feoffment of William Askham, alderman, in a lane of Saint Michael's
of Crooked Lane as per a charter of 1408. (Husting Roll 136:17 [Guildhall
Library])
3] 1 June 1411 - I, James Brampton ... have granted to Alexander Farnell, ...
my brewhouse tenement _The Lamp on the Hoop_ .... provided also that Joan my
wife, if she should survive me, shall have reasonable dower from the said
brew-house. (Court of Husting Roll 138, Item 75)
etc.
-- Don Stone
***
"Genealogical Gleanings in England" by Henry Waters NEHG Vol 51 July 1897 Mamecestre: being chapters from the early recorded history of the ..., Volume 2, edited by John Harland, Page 272 [& 389?] Chief Steward to Sir. John la Warre
***
A Descriptive Catalogue of Ancient Deeds in the Public Record Office: Series ...etc., By Great Britain. Public Record Office.,
Page 449:
http://books.google.com/books?id=N6oLAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA449&dq=%22Nicholas+de+Arden%22&hl=en&ei=Z579TNDuNIiCsQPnwuzKBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=%22Nicholas%20de%20Arden%22&f=false
***
Oxford.
A. 9681.
Feoffment by Thomas, son of John Thurgodes, comber (pectenar') of Oxford to William de Aston, copyist (exemplar'), of his land between land of the said William on the east and land formerly of Thomas de Morton, then of Nicholas de Arden, clerk, on the west, in the parish of St. Peter in the east, Oxford ; rendering therefore yearly to the chief lords of the fee the due and accustomed service, viz. to the hospital of St. John without the east gate, 4s. quarterly, to John Sewy 2s. quarterly, to the church of St. Mildred (Mildrithe) 3 halfpence at Michaelmas, to the church of St. Peter in the East Irf. at Easter, and to him and his heirs $d. at Whitsuntide, for all service; for this William gave him beforehand 8 marks in gersum, a robe of wool (burneta) not quite new (parum mitatam) and a pair of linen cloths (pannorum lineorum). Witnesses :—Adam Feteplace, then mayor of Oxford, Geoffrey de Hengsee, William Young (jnrene), spicer (spec'), then bailiffs and others (named).
***
Transactions of the Lancashire and Cheshire Antiquarian Society, Volume 5., By Lancashire and Cheshire Antiquarian Society., Page 139:
http://books.google.com/books?id=s8gGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22Nicholas+de+Arden%22&hl=en&ei=gZ_9TPX3DYn0swP26dC1BA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CDwQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=%22Nicholas%20de%20Arden%22&f=false
****
In this connection we may note that about 1283 Sir Geoffrey de Bracebridge was seneschal or steward of Manchester (Whalley Coucher Book, p. 42), about 1311 Geoffrey Chetham was seneschal (Booker's Didsbury, 109), in 1316 Nicholas de Arden was capital seneschal (Hibbert-Ware, Foundations of Manchester, iv. 88), and as such they would preside at the court leet. In 1316, Thomas le Mareschall attested a deed {L. and C. Hist, and Geneal. Notes, vol. i., p. 35); in 1318, Henry Boteronde was propositus of Manchester {L. and C. Antiq. Soc, iv. 216); in 1324, Thomas le Marchal de Mamecestr attested two deeds (Booker's Birch, Cheth. Soc, 192, 193); in another deed he is styled Tho: Marschall {Mamecestre, 434); in 1344, Richard, son of Thomas le Mareschal de Mamcester, attested two deeds {Birch, 194, 195); in 1375, Henry le Marshal de Mamcester attested a deed {Birch, 201); in 1379, William le Mareschal held a plot of land in Deansgate, and a burgage in Manchester {Mamecestre, 587).
***
Any help would be grand!!
Michael
I have moved onto the Arden link in the Whitfield / Manning pedigree. This coat of arms is also shown in these links:
http://sangreel.tumblr.com/image/17267137362
http://sangreel.tumblr.com/image/17312282365
Namely: Nicholas Arden of Shipton, Oxfordshire stated to have been the father of Alice Arden wife to James Brampton. I am not looking for a "Royal" connection, I just want to know who his father was. Here are my notes as entered into my PAF program.... a few years ago before I got caught up with the Dymoke question:
RESEARCH NOTES:
***********************
3rd son of Henry De Arden?
***
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2005-02/1107558312
From: Don Stone <don....@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Another Muhammad
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2005 23:05:12 GMT
References: <c664e10e.05020...@posting.google.com> <4201B230...@san.rr.com> <c664e10e.0502...@posting.google.com>
In-Reply-To: <c664e10e.0502...@posting.google.com>
David Hopkins wrote:
> For those interested in where I had this line going here it is:
[snip]
> 10 Sir Henry Arden b. ABT 1346 Park Hall, Warwickshire, England d.
> 1400
> 11 Nicholas Arden b. ABT 1370 Park Hall, Warwickshire, England
> 12 Alice Arden b. ABT 1396 Downe, Bromley, Kent, England
> m. James Brampton b. ABT 1392 Downe, Bromley, Kent, England
> 13 Alice Brampton b. ABT 1424 Downe, Bromley, Kent, England
> m. John Petley b. ABT 1420 Downe, Bromley, Kent, England d. 1467
> Downe, Bromley, Kent, England
From J. B. Threlfall's Henry Whitfield book, p. 157:
1] James Brampton .... married Joan _____, perhaps about 1400. She was living
in 1411, as the following Husting deed shows. However, Harleian Manuscript
1432, a pedigree chart, shows only that he married Alice Arden, daughter and
coheiress of Nicholas Arden of Shipton in Oxfordshire. Either he had
another wife, Alice, or there is an error and Joan was nee Arden.
2] 3 October 1408 - James Brampton, son of William Brampton, lately citizen and
fishmonger, and Joan my wife, have granted to Alexander Farnell, tailor, and
Agnes his wife those lands, shops, solars, etc. which lately we had jointly
by the feoffment of William Askham, alderman, in a lane of Saint Michael's
of Crooked Lane as per a charter of 1408. (Husting Roll 136:17 [Guildhall
Library])
3] 1 June 1411 - I, James Brampton ... have granted to Alexander Farnell, ...
my brewhouse tenement _The Lamp on the Hoop_ .... provided also that Joan my
wife, if she should survive me, shall have reasonable dower from the said
brew-house. (Court of Husting Roll 138, Item 75)
etc.
-- Don Stone
***
"Genealogical Gleanings in England" by Henry Waters NEHG Vol 51 July 1897 Mamecestre: being chapters from the early recorded history of the ..., Volume 2, edited by John Harland, Page 272 [& 389?] Chief Steward to Sir. John la Warre
***
A Descriptive Catalogue of Ancient Deeds in the Public Record Office: Series ...etc., By Great Britain. Public Record Office.,
Page 449:
http://books.google.com/books?id=N6oLAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA449&dq=%22Nicholas+de+Arden%22&hl=en&ei=Z579TNDuNIiCsQPnwuzKBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=%22Nicholas%20de%20Arden%22&f=false
***
Oxford.
A. 9681.
Feoffment by Thomas, son of John Thurgodes, comber (pectenar') of Oxford to William de Aston, copyist (exemplar'), of his land between land of the said William on the east and land formerly of Thomas de Morton, then of Nicholas de Arden, clerk, on the west, in the parish of St. Peter in the east, Oxford ; rendering therefore yearly to the chief lords of the fee the due and accustomed service, viz. to the hospital of St. John without the east gate, 4s. quarterly, to John Sewy 2s. quarterly, to the church of St. Mildred (Mildrithe) 3 halfpence at Michaelmas, to the church of St. Peter in the East Irf. at Easter, and to him and his heirs $d. at Whitsuntide, for all service; for this William gave him beforehand 8 marks in gersum, a robe of wool (burneta) not quite new (parum mitatam) and a pair of linen cloths (pannorum lineorum). Witnesses :—Adam Feteplace, then mayor of Oxford, Geoffrey de Hengsee, William Young (jnrene), spicer (spec'), then bailiffs and others (named).
***
Transactions of the Lancashire and Cheshire Antiquarian Society, Volume 5., By Lancashire and Cheshire Antiquarian Society., Page 139:
http://books.google.com/books?id=s8gGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA139&dq=%22Nicholas+de+Arden%22&hl=en&ei=gZ_9TPX3DYn0swP26dC1BA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CDwQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=%22Nicholas%20de%20Arden%22&f=false
****
In this connection we may note that about 1283 Sir Geoffrey de Bracebridge was seneschal or steward of Manchester (Whalley Coucher Book, p. 42), about 1311 Geoffrey Chetham was seneschal (Booker's Didsbury, 109), in 1316 Nicholas de Arden was capital seneschal (Hibbert-Ware, Foundations of Manchester, iv. 88), and as such they would preside at the court leet. In 1316, Thomas le Mareschall attested a deed {L. and C. Hist, and Geneal. Notes, vol. i., p. 35); in 1318, Henry Boteronde was propositus of Manchester {L. and C. Antiq. Soc, iv. 216); in 1324, Thomas le Marchal de Mamecestr attested two deeds (Booker's Birch, Cheth. Soc, 192, 193); in another deed he is styled Tho: Marschall {Mamecestre, 434); in 1344, Richard, son of Thomas le Mareschal de Mamcester, attested two deeds {Birch, 194, 195); in 1375, Henry le Marshal de Mamcester attested a deed {Birch, 201); in 1379, William le Mareschal held a plot of land in Deansgate, and a burgage in Manchester {Mamecestre, 587).
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Any help would be grand!!
Michael
sangreel
Jun 29, 2013, 11:54:44 AM6/29/13
to
I do not have a copy of the following at hand so if anyone on this site does can you please help a poor researcher out and let me know what the snippet views don't show....or the context?
The American Genealogist, Volumes 56-57, p. 237
http://books.google.com/books?id=_REoAQAAMAAJ&q=%22Nicholas+Arden%22&dq=%22Nicholas+Arden%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kf7OUauNN-rViwKy_IGYAw&ved=0CEgQ6AEwBTge
Thomas Arden in Faversham: the man behind the myth. Page 18
http://books.google.com/books?id=tAkXAQAAIAAJ&q=%22Nicholas+Arden%22&dq=%22Nicholas+Arden%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2_zOUd-kMMqXiALCqIGwAQ&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAjgK
Archaeologia Cantiana, Volume 29, Page 279
Kent Archaeological Society., 1911
http://books.google.com/books?id=GiJKAAAAYAAJ&q=%22Nicholas+Arden%22&dq=%22Nicholas+Arden%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xf7OUfjGJuKaiQKfm4DgBg&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAjgy
Here are a few Books that notice a Nicholas de Arden and are within the time period that he may have lived or are just a notice:
Early Lincoln Wills: An Abstract of All the Wills & Administrations Recorded ...
By Church of England. Diocese of Lincoln, Alfred W. Gibbons Page 21
http://books.google.com/books?id=uBYRAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA21&dq=%22Nicholas+de+Arden%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=of3OUZe4EOK3iwLDgoD4CA&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22Nicholas%20de%20Arden%22&f=false
Remains, Historical and Literary, Connected with the Palatine Counties of ...
Page 5
http://books.google.com/books?id=T1fkAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA5&dq=%22Nicholas+de+Arden%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=of3OUZe4EOK3iwLDgoD4CA&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22Nicholas%20de%20Arden%22&f=false
Remains, historical and literary, connected with the palatine ..., Volume 56
By John Harland, Chetham Society Page 272
http://books.google.com/books?id=g3Y9AAAAIAAJ&dq=%22Nicholas%20de%20Arden%22&pg=PA272#v=onepage&q=%22Nicholas%20de%20Arden%22&f=false
Thank you for taking the time to read this posting and I hope someone 'out there" can shed some light on this man and his family.
Michael
The American Genealogist, Volumes 56-57, p. 237
http://books.google.com/books?id=_REoAQAAMAAJ&q=%22Nicholas+Arden%22&dq=%22Nicholas+Arden%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kf7OUauNN-rViwKy_IGYAw&ved=0CEgQ6AEwBTge
Thomas Arden in Faversham: the man behind the myth. Page 18
http://books.google.com/books?id=tAkXAQAAIAAJ&q=%22Nicholas+Arden%22&dq=%22Nicholas+Arden%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2_zOUd-kMMqXiALCqIGwAQ&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAjgK
Archaeologia Cantiana, Volume 29, Page 279
Kent Archaeological Society., 1911
http://books.google.com/books?id=GiJKAAAAYAAJ&q=%22Nicholas+Arden%22&dq=%22Nicholas+Arden%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=xf7OUfjGJuKaiQKfm4DgBg&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAjgy
Here are a few Books that notice a Nicholas de Arden and are within the time period that he may have lived or are just a notice:
Early Lincoln Wills: An Abstract of All the Wills & Administrations Recorded ...
By Church of England. Diocese of Lincoln, Alfred W. Gibbons Page 21
http://books.google.com/books?id=uBYRAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA21&dq=%22Nicholas+de+Arden%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=of3OUZe4EOK3iwLDgoD4CA&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22Nicholas%20de%20Arden%22&f=false
Remains, Historical and Literary, Connected with the Palatine Counties of ...
Page 5
http://books.google.com/books?id=T1fkAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA5&dq=%22Nicholas+de+Arden%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=of3OUZe4EOK3iwLDgoD4CA&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22Nicholas%20de%20Arden%22&f=false
Remains, historical and literary, connected with the palatine ..., Volume 56
By John Harland, Chetham Society Page 272
http://books.google.com/books?id=g3Y9AAAAIAAJ&dq=%22Nicholas%20de%20Arden%22&pg=PA272#v=onepage&q=%22Nicholas%20de%20Arden%22&f=false
Thank you for taking the time to read this posting and I hope someone 'out there" can shed some light on this man and his family.
Michael
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