Sir Richard Southwell and a Darcy link
tom
Leo's website http://www.genealogics.org shows:
Thomasine, the daughter of Thomas Darcy, 1st. Baron Darcy of Chiche,
and his wife Elizabeth de Vere, as the wife of Richard Southwell. No
additional information is given on this Richard Southwell.
Separately, there is a Mary Darcy shown as wife of Sir Richard
Southwell, of Woodrising. This Richard is shown as the grandfather of
the Saint, Sir Robert Southwell who was executed at Tyburn.
My question is, what if any, is the relationship between Thomasine and
Mary Darcy?
Regards,
Tom Dunn, Kilbrittain, Co. Cork, Ireland
mark_bridge
mistress), was a niece of Thomasine.
See http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/Bios/RichardSouthwell1.htm
Best,
Mark
On Jan 10, 4:51 pm, tom <td...@gofree.indigo.ie> wrote:
> Hi Folks,
> Leo's websitehttp://www.genealogics.orgshows:
tom
I've seen the tudorplace article you mention. You will note that the
father of Thomasine, as stated, is at odds with what Leo has. Further,
if Mary is the daughter of Thomas Darcy, then Mary and Thomasine would
be sisters, not aunt and neice as suggested.
It is for that reason that my original query was limited to the
relationship between these two Darcy ladies.
Regards
John
Although Burke's Extinct Peerages (Leo's cited source) says that
Thomasine Darcy, Sir Richard Southwell's first wife was daughter of
Thomas Darcy, 1st Baron Darcy of Chiche, a Southwell pedigree in the
visitations of Norfolk as well as a Darcy pedigree in the visitations
of Essex indicate that she was sister, not daughter, of Thomas and
thus a daughter of Roger Darcy of Danbury and his wife Elizabeth
Wentworth. Actually BEP gives a daughter Thomasine (married to
Richard Southwell) to both Roger and his son Thomas. It's likely that
one of the two is in error, and based on the visitation pedigrees and
without checking any chronology, I'd go with Thomasine as a daughter
of Roger.
As to Mary, the second wife of Sir Richard Southwell, the Southwell
pedigree indicates that she was a daughter of Thomas Darcy of Danbury
(presumably the one who became Baron Darcy), but a Darcy pedigree in
BEP as well as in Burke's Extinct Baronetages (like BEP, not the best
of sources) says she was daughter of Thomas Darcy of Tolleshunt (a
distant cousin of the other Thomas) and his wife Margaret Sulyard. To
some extent this is confirmed by the Darcy pedigree in the visitations
of Essex, which gives a daughter Mary to the Darcy/Sulyard marriage
(with no husband indicated) but not to the Darcy/Vere marriage
mentioned in the original post.
The Southwell visitation pedigrees indicate that Sir Richard
Southwell's four children by Mary Darcy were born while his first wife
Thomasine was living and thus were illegitimate - an interesting
circumstance given the relatively close connection of his two wives.
tom
> Although Burke's Extinct Peerages (Leo's cited source) says that
> Thomasine Darcy, Sir Richard Southwell's first wife was daughter of
> Thomas Darcy, 1st Baron Darcy of Chiche, a Southwell pedigree in the
> visitations of Norfolk as well as a Darcy pedigree in the visitations
> of Essex indicate that she was sister, not daughter, of Thomas and
> thus a daughter of Roger Darcy of Danbury and his wife Elizabeth
> Wentworth. Actually BEP gives a daughter Thomasine (married to
> Richard Southwell) to both Roger and his son Thomas. It's likely that
> one of the two is in error, and based on the visitation pedigrees and
> without checking any chronology, I'd go with Thomasine as a daughter
> of Roger.
>
Hi John,
The will of Elizabeth de Vere, widow of Thomas 1st. Lord Darcy,
dated 1564 and probated 29 December 1565 [PROB 11/48, ff. 256-7],
shows Thomasine as her unmarried daughter. There is no mention of a
daughter Mary. [see w3.oxford-shakespeare.com].
'The Literature and the Literary Men of Great Britain and Ireland';
Abraham Mills; p. 172; shows:
"Robert Southwell, executed at Tyburn in 1595, at age 36,"
Therefore Robert Southwell, the saint was b. ~1559, and could not be
the grandson of Thomasine, daughter of Elizabeth de Vere and Thomas
Darcy.
Thanks for bringing up the visitations of Essex and Norfolk.
Regards
Tom Dunn, Kilbrittain, Co. Cork, Ireland
John
The fact that the 1564 will of Elizabeth de Vere, widow of Thomas,
Lord Darcy, mentions an unmarried daughter Thomasine suggests that BEP
was correct in giving a daughter Thomasine to both Thomas Darcy and
his father Roger Darcy, but incorrect in saying that both Thomasines
married Sir Richard Southwell. If the younger Thomasine was unmarried
in 1564, she could not have been the one who married Southwell, since
he had children by his 2nd wife (including the father of Saint Robert
Southwell) who must have been born long before 1564.
wjhonson
illegitimate children by Sir Robert Southwell, and *then* married
him. It's quite possible that someone has confused the women that he
married.
In 1545, there are several licenses to alienate in which all these
parties are named, including the then living "Richard Southwell alias
Darcy", *and* the then-living Mary Darcy who is at this time already
married but not to Southwell!
Will
John
>
> Will
First, the illegitimate children attributed to Mary Darcy are by Sir
Richard Southwell, not [his brother] Sir Robert as indicated above.
Sir Richard Southwell, the twice-married man being discussed here, is
the one said in the citation above to be one of the General Surveyors
and who had brothers Anthony and Sir Robert, Master of the Rolls
[M.R.] also mentioned in the citation and listed in the Southwell
visitation pedigree. As to Richard Southwell alias Darcy, "son of
Mary Darcy, now wife of Robert Leche", I'd suggest that he is the
Richard Southwell in the visitation pedigree indicated to be the son
of Sir Richard Southwell by Mary Darcy - before they were married -
and that the license to alienate is providing for Richard and the
other [illegitimate] children of Sir Richard and Mary Darcy.
There is a PCC will in 1559 for Robert Leche of Colchester, Essex -
likely the man mentioned here. Thomasine Darcy, the first wife of Sir
Richard Southwell, is said in the visitation pedigree to have been
living 14 Feb 4 and 5 Philip & Henry (roughly 1558). Thus Mary Darcy's
econd marriage, if it occurred, took place sometime after 1559. But
it seems clear from the citation above that Mary Darcy's children were
known as early as 1545 to have been fathered not by Robert Leche but
by a Southwell - presumably Sir Richard, as the visitation pedigree
indicates. For whatever reason, Mary Darcy's prior Leche marriage was
(perhaps intentionally) omitted from the Southwell visitation
pedigree, and neither marriage is listed in the Darcy visitation
pedigree.
wjhonson
Sir Richard Southwell married his mistress Mary to some low fellow
named Leche who was a servant of some kind to him.
So he could keep her.
After both their spouses died, which you say should have occurred by
1559 or thereabouts, then he "took her" from her husband, still
living, and married her, proclaiming that her prior marriage was
invalid, as that husband already still had a living wife ! So if this
is so, then it doesn't require Leche to be dead yet.
There is an allusion to years of court battles over all these
complications and a lifetime debt to a lawyer because of it. Some
sources do not know about his legitimate daughter Elizabeth
(Southwell) Heneage, born from Thomasine, but who (Elizabeth) d.s.p.
in 1583. However the DNB knows about her.
http://books.google.com/books?id=DC48AAAAIAAJ&dq=Richard%20Southwell%20darcy&as_brr=3&pg=PA700#v=onepage&q=&f=false
DNB, "Southwell, Sir Richard (1504-1564)"
http://books.google.com/books?id=aPcMAAAAIAAJ&pg=PR1#PPA483,M1
Lincolnshire Pedigrees
"dau and heiress of Sir Richard Southwell, Knt of Woodrising, co
Norfolk"
Will
John
> Evidently there was some peculiar nasty feeling, near that time, that
> Sir Richard Southwell married his mistress Mary to some low fellow
> named Leche who was a servant of some kind to him.
>
> So he could keep her.
>
> After both their spouses died, which you say should have occurred by
> 1559 or thereabouts, then he "took her" from her husband, still
> living, and married her, proclaiming that her prior marriage was
> invalid, as that husband already still had a living wife ! So if this
> is so, then it doesn't require Leche to be dead yet.
>
> There is an allusion to years of court battles over all these
> complications and a lifetime debt to a lawyer because of it. Some
> sources do not know about his legitimate daughter Elizabeth
> (Southwell) Heneage, born from Thomasine, but who (Elizabeth) d.s.p.
> in 1583. However the DNB knows about her.
>
> DNB, "Southwell, Sir Richard (1504-1564)"
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=aPcMAAAAIAAJ&pg=PR1#PPA483,M1
> Lincolnshire Pedigrees
> "dau and heiress of Sir Richard Southwell, Knt of Woodrising, co
> Norfolk"
>
> Will
What are your sources for the statements about the "low fellow named
Leche" and the court battles on this matter? It appears to have been
something of a scandal....
BTW the Norfolk visitation pedigree for Southwell also shows the
legitimate daughter Elizabeth from the 1st marriage.
Sir Richard Southwell and his "eventual" wife Mary Darcy are ancestors
of Princes William and Harry and probably many other people as well.
wjhonson
has to be in one of those
DNB, "Southwell, Sir Richard (1504-1564)"
http://books.google.com/books?id=UK1AAAAAIAAJ&as_brr=3&pg=RA1-PA152#v=onepage&q=&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=oBsFAAAAYAAJ&as_brr=3&pg=PA230#v=onepage&q=&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=u_eIrJpc_T0C&as_brr=3&pg=RA1-PA356#v=onepage&q=&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=hqwKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA45#v=onepage&q=&f=false
Vis Essex 1558
"Thomazin uxor Rich. Southwell"
wjhonson
http://books.google.com/books?id=SfsGAAAAQAAJ&dq=Richard%20Southwell%20darcy&as_brr=3&pg=PR38#v=onepage&q=&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=SfsGAAAAQAAJ&dq=Richard%20Southwell%20darcy&as_brr=3&pg=PR40#v=onepage&q=&f=false
stating that his birth year can be fixed to 1560-1
http://books.google.com/books?id=DC48AAAAIAAJ&as_brr=3&pg=PA702#v=onepage&q=&f=false
DNB, "Southwell, Robert (1561?-1595)"
wjhonson
>
> Sir Richard Southwell and his "eventual" wife Mary Darcy are ancestors
> of Princes William and Harry and probably many other people as well.
I don't have a connection forward from this couple as you say. Can
you give a few generations?
John
Actually the biographies for Sir Richard Southwell in ODNB (the new
DNB) and HOP indicate that Robert leeche [sic] the husband of Mary
Darcy was an alderman of Norwich - hardly a "low fellow".
The bios also say that "in his will he made no distinction between his
legitimate and illegitimate offspring. Should [his legitimate
daughter] Elizabeth attempt to break the will she was to be
disinherited." Interesting....
The HOP bio also says that Mary Darcy the second wife d. by Sept 1561,
so the second marriage must have been very short - but long enough
apparently to have had one legitimate daughter katherine (noted in the
Norfolk visitation pedigree).
John
Start with the Southwell pedigree in the 1563 visitation of Norfolk -
see your source list for the Google Books copy of the Harleian Society
edition, or, better yet, check out vol. 1 of Harvey's edition of the
same visitation available at the BYU website, which is much more
detailed.
Sir Richard's son by Mary Darcy, Richard Southwell alias Darcy had
daughters who married into Norfolk families covered in visittaion
pedigrees, and the younger Richard's son Richard had two sons Sir
Thomas and Anthony who went to Ireland and have descendants (in the
female lines) still living.
This should keep you busy for a while....