1146-1304 Gap in TIREL/TYRELLS of Essex
Barbara D Chandler
LINE OF DESCENT FROM PEPIN LE GROS TO RALF, SIRE DE TIREL, ANCESTOR OF THE TYRRELL FAMILY OF ENGLAND AND THE TERRELLS AND TERRILLS OF VIRGINIA
PEPIN LE GROS, of Heristal, founder of the Carolingian line of French Kings, became Duke of Austrasian Franks and Duke of Brabant. he conquered Burgundy and Neustria and was Major Domo to Theodoric III, Clovis III, and Childebert III. He died December 16, 714. His wife was Alpais who was the mother of Charles Martel, Duc de Austrasie, and of Cheldebrand I. Duke of Burgundy.
CHILDEBRAND I, Duke of Burgundy, son of Pepin le Gros and his second wife, Alpais.
NIVELON I, Count of Autun, Macon and the Vexin
CHILDEBRAND II, Count of Autun, Macon, and the Vexin.
ECCARD, Count of Autun, Macon, and the Vexin
NIVELON II, Count of Autun, Macon and the Vexin.
TERRIC, Count of Autun, Macon, and the Vexin.
WALERAN, Hereditary Standard Bearer of France. He died in 965. He married Eldegarde, daughter of Arnulph I, "Magnus". Arnulph I, surnamed "Magnus", married in 923 Alisa de Vermandois, daughter of Heribert I, Count of Vermandois and Vexin, who was the great-grandson of Pepin, King of Italy, son of Charlemagne. Arnulph I was Count of Flanders, Amiens, and Artois, and died in 965. Wife of Arnulph I was Alisa de Vermandois, daughter of Heribert I, Count of Vexin and Vermandois.
WALTER I, Count of Vexin and Amiens, 995. He gave land to the Abbey of Soissons. He married Eve, daughter of Landry, Count of Dreux.
RALF, fourth son, Sire de Tirel and Poix, Viscount of Amiens; married a daughter of Guernanville. He was the first to adopt the name which has descended to the Tyrrell family of England and Ireland and to the Tyrrells, Terrells, and Terrills of this country. He had his castle near the village of Tirel, on the banks of the river Seine, a short distance below Paris. This village is now known as Triel, a transposition of two letters.
FULKE DE TIREL, married the "noble lady" Orielda. In old age he became a monk of St. Evroult, which he endowed.
SIR WALTER I DE TIREL, born about 1010, Lord of Poix, Castellan of Pontoise, Viscount of Amiens, a Baron of France and England; Lord of Laingaham, Essex, and Kingsworthy and Avon, Hants, England. He built the castles of Poix and Famechon, in 1046, and Moyencourt, in France. He was present at the Battle of Hastings, in 1066, with William the Conqueror, his kinsman. He married Olga, a Saxon, from whom the continuing line is descended, and afterwards married in France Alix, Lady of Fremontieres and of Famechon, before 1046. In the Primal Church of Rouen, in 1030, he is mentioned as a wealthy nobleman. He ied in 1080.
SIR WALTER II DE TIREL, married Ann de Clare, daughter of Gislebert Crispin, Count of d'Eu and Brionne (996), who was a grandson of Richard I, 3rd Duke of Normandy, and was murdered in 1040. Gislebert Crispin is stated to have married Arlotta, daughter of Fulbert de Croy, a blacksmith of Falaise, who was the mother of William the Conqueror by Robert II, "le Diable", 6th Duke of Normandy. Unless Gislebert Crispin married subsequently, Ann de Clare was half-sister to William the Conqueror; contrarywise, she was no relation.
SIR WALTER III DE TIREL, Lord of Poix, Laingaham, Kingsworthy and Avon and a Baron of France and England; Castellan of Pontoise 1091. He was present at the siege of Jerusalem, First Crusade, 1096. He accidentally killed William II, Rufus, King of England 1097-1100, by a glancing arrow while hunting in the New Forest. He married Adeliza, daughter of Richard Fitz-Gilbert, founder of the House of Clare and Rohaise de Bolebec, who was a daughter of Walter Giffard, the elder Count of Longueville, in Normandy, created in 1066 Earl of Buckingham, who was the owner of 107 lordships and commanded the army of King William, Rufus, of England, in Normandy in 1089. Sir Walter Tirel died in the Holy Land in 1136, Second Crusade.
SIR HUGH TIREL, Prince of Poix; married Ada, daughter of Etienne de Champagne, Compte d'Aumale. He sold Laingaham, in England, prior to joining the Second Crusade in 1146 and died in 1159.
SIR HUGH TYRRELL, Lord of Poix and first Baron of Castelknock, ireland in 1173. He was with "Strongbow" in Ireland in 1169 and was Governor of Trim in 1183. He was at the siege of Acre in 1191 (Third Crusad) and was known as "The Grecian Knight", one of "De Lacy's Barons". He married Isabel de Vignacourt in 1161 and married secondly Marie de Senarpont in 1173. He died in 1199 and is buried at Selincourt, Picardy, France.
SIR ROGER TYRRELL, of Avon Tyrrell, Hants, succeeded to the vast possessions of his father in Hampshire and Essex and was the ancestor of all English branches of the family.
SIR EDWARD TYRRELL, of Avon Tyrrell.
SIR GALFRID TYRRELL, of Avon Tyrrell.
SIR HUGH TYRRELL, of Great Thornton, Essex, Governor of Carisbrooke Castle during the successful defense against the French in 1377. He married Jane, daughter and heiress of Sir James Flambert.
SIR JAMES TYRRELL, knighted before Ardes in 1380; married Margaret, daughter and heiress of Sir William Heron, of Heron Hall, Essex.
SIR WALTER TYRRELL, of Heron; married Ann, daughter of Sir William Swynford, of Essex.
SIR THOMAS TYRRELL, of Heron; married secondly, Elizabeth, daughter of John Flambert.
SIR JOHN TYRRELL, Sheriff of Essex, 1423. He was Treasurer of the Household of Henry VI. He as present at Agincourt in 1415 in the retinue of Sir Walter Hungerford and was afterwards Speaker of the House of Commons. He married Lady Alice, daughter of Sir William de Coggeshall and his wife Mary who was daughter and heiress of Sir John Harkwood, the celebrated soldier of fortune in the time of Edward III. He died in 1437.
SIR THOMAS TYRRELL, of Heron, Sheriff of Essex and Herts in 1460 and Chamberlain of the Exchequer. He married Anna Marney, daughtere of Si8r John Marney and Agnes Throckmorton, of Lower Marney, Essex. About 22 miles from London, near the village of Brentwood, is a little church consisting of a chancel and a large aisle on the south called Tyrrell Chapel and a smaller north aisle called Marney Chapel. On an interior wall of the church, high up, is fastened an ancient helmet, in bronze, is the crest of the Tyrrell family. TYhe helmet is battered with dents received in battle and nailed alongside are the jointed gauntlets. Sir Thomas Tyrrell died in 1476.
It is by this union fo Sir Thomas Tyrrell with Anna Marney that the Tyrrell family of England and Ireland and their descendants in America, whether spelling the family name Tyrrell, Terrell,. or Terrill, trace their descent.
This copious information is taken directly from.."Henry Duke, Councilor; His Descendents and Connections" by Walter Garland Duke, printed in 1949.
Now.....let the verification or vilification commence!!! In the USA, fireworks....HAPPY FOURTH OF JULY...
Io Tiumphe!
Barbara Dunn Chandler
Bell Canyon, CA, USA
949.
Now.....let the verification or vilification commence!!! In the =
USA, fireworks....HAPPY FOURTH OF JULY...
Io Tiumphe!
Barbara Dunn Chandler
Bell Canyon, CA, USA
DadG...@aol.com
of England" by O.F. Brown, published by Phillimore & Co., Ltd., 1982 which
was the major source I cited in my post on this family several days ago. JHT
refers to "A Genealogical History of the Tyrrells . . ." by Joseph Henry
Tyrrell which was the other book I cited in that post.
John Stuart
----------------
In a message dated 7/3/99 11:47:03 AM, barba...@earthlink.net writes:
(snip)
<<LINE OF DESCENT FROM PEPIN LE GROS TO RALF, SIRE DE TIREL, ANCESTOR OF THE
TYRRELL FAMILY OF ENGLAND AND THE TERRELLS AND TERRILLS OF VIRGINIA>>
[Most of the descent shown here is identical to that shown by JHT. OFB does
not go into the ancestry of the TYRELLs before their first mention in
England.]
<<PEPIN LE GROS, of Heristal, founder of the Carolingian line of French
Kings, became Duke of Austrasian Franks and Duke of Brabant. he conquered
Burgundy and Neustria and was Major Domo to Theodoric III, Clovis III, and
Childebert III. He died December 16, 714. His wife was Alpais who was the
mother of Charles Martel, Duc de Austrasie, and of Cheldebrand I. Duke of
Burgundy.>>
<<
<<CHILDEBRAND I, Duke of Burgundy, son of Pepin le Gros and his second wife,
Alpais.>>
<<
<<NIVELON I, Count of Autun, Macon and the Vexin>>
[JHT adds a generation "THEODORET, Count of Autun, Macon and the Vexin"
between NIVELON I and CHILDEBRAND II. Others show a Theoderet as a brother
of Nivelon.]
<<CHILDEBRAND II, Count of Autun, Macon, and the Vexin.
<<
<<ECCARD, Count of Autun, Macon, and the Vexin>>
<<
<<NIVELON II, Count of Autun, Macon and the Vexin.>>
<<
<<TERRIC, Count of Autun, Macon, and the Vexin.>>
<<
<<WALERAN, Hereditary Standard Bearer of France. He died in 965. He married
Eldegarde, daughter of Arnulph I, "Magnus". Arnulph I, surnamed "Magnus",
married in 923 Alisa de Vermandois, daughter of Heribert I, Count of
Vermandois and Vexin, who was the great-grandson of Pepin, King of Italy, son
of Charlemagne. Arnulph I was Count of Flanders, Amiens, and Artois, and
died in 965. Wife of Arnulph I was Alisa de Vermandois, daughter of Heribert
I, Count of Vexin and Vermandois.>>
<<
<<WALTER I, Count of Vexin and Amiens, 995. He gave land to the Abbey of
Soissons. He married Eve, daughter of Landry, Count of Dreux.>>
<<
<<RALF, fourth son, Sire de Tirel and Poix, Viscount of Amiens; married a
daughter of Guernanville. He was the first to adopt the name which has
descended to the Tyrrell family of England and Ireland and to the Tyrrells,
Terrells, and Terrills of this country. He had his castle near the village
of Tirel, on the banks of the river Seine, a short distance below Paris.
This village is now known as Triel, a transposition of two letters.>>
[In one of his infrequent references to near-contemporary sources, JHT
provides a qoute from Ordericus Vitalis (whose last writings were in 1141/2)
which appears to validate the relationship between RALF and son FULKE as
follows: "When bent with age he was induced by his son Fulk, a Monk who was
Assistant to Abbot Manier (who died in 1089) in the management of Abbey of
St. Evroult, to enter that Abbaey as a Monk. He endowed it with the church
of Guernanville and its Land, as well as with a Farm given to him by Hugh
Bishop of Bayeux."]
<<FULKE DE TIREL, married the "noble lady" Orielda. In old age he became a
monk of St. Evroult, which he endowed.>>
[From this point onward, OFB is a relevant source.]
<<SIR WALTER I DE TIREL, born about 1010, Lord of Poix, Castellan of
Pontoise, Viscount of Amiens, a Baron of France and England; Lord of
Laingaham, Essex, and Kingsworthy and Avon, Hants, England. He built the
castles of Poix and Famechon, in 1046, and Moyencourt, in France. He was
present at the Battle of Hastings, in 1066, with William the Conqueror, his
kinsman. He married Olga, a Saxon, from whom the continuing line is
descended, and afterwards married in France Alix, Lady of Fremontieres and of
Famechon, before 1046. In the Primal Church of Rouen, in 1030, he is
mentioned as a wealthy nobleman. He ied in 1080.>>
[According to OFB, the earliest surviving contemporary reference to any
Tyrell is that same Rouen cathedral charter of 1030 noted above which
describes a "Galtero Tyrello" as owning land and being a close relative of
Robert, Duke of Normandy. This is the individual that was the jumping off
place for Cuvillier-Morel D'Arcy in 1869 to compile a "genealogical history"
of the French Tyrells down to the mid-19th century. This is also the
individual that is the Walter I de Tirel, Lord of Poix, shown here and in the
traditional English genealogical descents. The 1030 reference to owning land
suggests a birthdate for Walter I of "before" 1010 rather than "about" 1010,
but that is not a major issue. The Rouen cathedral charter is consistent
with the characterization of Walter I de Tirel as being a kinsman of William
the Conqueror. However, OFB does point out, that Walter I would have been 57
or older at the Battle of Hastings in 1066. This might be a little advanced
in years to have actually been at the Battle, although not impossible. The
marriages to Olga and to Alix are from the Morel D'Arcy pedigree.]
<<SIR WALTER II DE TIREL, married Ann de Clare, daughter of Gislebert
Crispin, Count of d'Eu and Brionne (996), who was a grandson of Richard I,
3rd Duke of Normandy, and was murdered in 1040. Gislebert Crispin is stated
to have married Arlotta, daughter of Fulbert de Croy, a blacksmith of
Falaise, who was the mother of William the Conqueror by Robert II, "le
Diable", 6th Duke of Normandy. Unless Gislebert Crispin married
subsequently, Ann de Clare was half-sister to William the Conqueror;
contrarywise, she was no relation. >>
[According to OFB, there was a "son of Walter" mentioned in a charter at
Amiens in 1069 who is probably the Walter II de Tirel in the traditional
descent. He would have to have been over 21 at that time, and because of his
father's age, more likely in his thirties or older. OFB estimates that he
was possibly born between 1030 and 1040. This would have made him more of
an age to be at the Battle of Hastings. Thus, OFB surmises that it was
Walter II who was at Hastings, rather than Walter I, --- if either of them
were. The indications of a "Walter Tirel" at Hastings are from a poem by
Robert Wace and the Battle Abbey Roll, neither of which are contemporary to
the event. OFB shows no record of an Ann de Clare as spouse of Walter II or
any record of a spouse, for that matter.]
[The descent below Walter II is essentially the one I commented on in my post
on this family several days ago. It is a version of the "traditional"
descent propounded by JHT and others which OFB challenges during and around
the "Missing Period" of records in Essex.]
(snip)
Francisco Antonio Doria
>PEPIN LE GROS, of Heristal, founder of the Carolingian line of French
>Kings, became Duke of Austrasian Franks and Duke of Brabant. he conquered
>Burgundy and Neustria and was Major Domo to Theodoric III, Clovis III, and
>Childebert III. He died December 16, 714. His wife was Alpais who was
>the mother of Charles Martel, Duc de Austrasie, and of Cheldebrand I. Duke
>of Burgundy.
Lévillain, in a famous article, ``Les Nibelungen historiques...'' makes a detailed case against Pépin being the father of Childebrand. And of course Alpaļs was at best a `secondary' wife, if not a kind of maītresse en titre.
>
>CHILDEBRAND I, Duke of Burgundy, son of Pepin le Gros and his second wife,
>Alpais.
>
>NIVELON I, Count of Autun, Macon and the Vexin
He is the first historical Nibelung. Name isn't derived from Nebel, comes from Nivelles, which belonged to those people.
best,
chico
Francisco Antonio Doria
Peter Haizelden
their family tree back to almost before the alleged birth of Christ!! The
majority of us poor Brits never seem to get beyond 1600 or even 1700. Do
Americans have a link with those ancestors who have gone before and
communicate daily with their wandering souls on the subject of genealogy?
PH
Barbara D Chandler <barba...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:004901bec583$702345a0$2206...@barbaradunn.earthlink.net...
Aucht...@aol.com
pe...@maypowder.freeserve.co.uk writes:
<< Why is it that our American cousins of British ancestry always seem to get
their family tree back to almost before the alleged birth of Christ!! The
majority of us poor Brits never seem to get beyond 1600 or even 1700. Do
Americans have a link with those ancestors who have gone before and
communicate daily with their wandering souls on the subject of genealogy?
PH >>
I doubt that most of these genealogies are taken too seriously (back to Adam
and Eve). Many of these tables are religious in origin (from the BIBLE, the
Book of Morman, Talmud etc). Since these books were all written by men and
don't agree on all points, I think the writings are much like
mythology...although my cultures have similiar stories about Great Floods,
Creation of the World, etc. This listing should prove that everyone has
their own slant on an issue.
Some scientific proof attests to the activities in the Atlantic and Pacific
Oceans having had land masses that now are in the ocean (Atlantis). All this
is man's search for his sense of past, no more.
I don't think this is necessarily an American thing? Don't we all strive to
find our roots. It would seem that is why we all are on this listing.
AND may times those who came to the USA as overseers were peerage ...
afterall, someone had to pay for the voyage, and run things. It was a money
making proposition, plain and simple. Early colonies provided many goods to
Mother England. And many explorers and peers alike were made rich by
venturing here. The coffers were filled with American gold, tobacco, spices,
and new crops.
Some countries, like Spain, rose up and fell because of the things they
captured (gold) and returned to Spain.
Yesterday was the 4th of July ... which celebrated our independence.
Maggie in Michigan
Francisco Antonio Doria
>Some scientific proof attests to the activities in the Atlantic and Pacific
>Oceans having had land masses that now are in the ocean (Atlantis).
Sorry, but - where did you get that? Atlantis is a distorted memory of
the Knossos empire.
Aucht...@aol.com
fad...@rio.com.br writes:
I have a book on Atlantis here...THE HISTORY OF ATLANTIS by Lewis Spence...it
explores the writings of Plato and others...now I understand that these
writings are way after the fact. :-) And that they can't be proven. It was
merely an example of what might have been.
Spence ponders all the different theories. AND there is scientific evidence
of eons of volcanic activity involving the rising and falling of land masses.
Port Royal in Jamaica would be a modern version of this. I have been there
and they are still diving for artifacts there. Continental Drift would also
fall into this category.
ISpence says that the Canary Islands (they think) was the tip of part of
Atlantis, if indeed it did exist.
Don't shoot the messenger. I have loads more I can give as
resources...however, my point quite simply was that many cultures have
similiar stories about these events (Great Flood, etc).
Maggie in Michigan :-)
M. Stevens
Really, though, perhaps you should stick to the better documented medieval time period, your 'opinion' on this issue notwithstanding...or do you by chance have microfiche of the old Knossian documents inscribed in Linear B which support your contention?
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: Francisco Antonio Doria <fad...@rio.com.br>
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Date: Monday, July 05, 1999 5:55 AM
Subject: Re: SPEAK TO YOUR ANCESTORS
Aucht...@aol.com remarked:
>Some scientific proof attests to the activities in the Atlantic and Pacific
>Oceans having had land masses that now are in the ocean (Atlantis).
Sorry, but - where did you get that? Atlantis is a distorted memory of
the Knossos empire.
chico
Francisco Antonio Doria
fad...@rio.com.br
ia
=20
fad...@rio.com.br
D. Spencer Hines
I hope Paul C. Reed will speak to this. He did once before and gave
an excellent answer as to why many Americans have fewer troubles
tracing their ancestry back to the 'Plantagenets', or at least further
back, than do many British.
Perhaps he'll flesh it out a bit more this time.
No, not to Biblical ancestors.
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "Back in steerage [on a Boeing 747, over
Newfoundland] where the package tours go, the fifty-two members of Old
World Fantasy, a tour of eleven countries in seventeen days, are
returning to Detroit and Windsor, Canada. Shoulder room is twenty
inches. Hip room between armrests is twenty inches. This is two
inches more space than a slave had on the Middle Passage." _Hannibal_,
Thomas Harris, Delacorte Press, [1999], p. 247.
<Aucht...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:fee4a34d...@aol.com...
> In a message dated 7/5/99 1:42:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> pe...@maypowder.freeserve.co.uk writes:
>
> << Why is it that our American cousins of British ancestry always
seem to get
> their family tree back to almost before the alleged birth of
Christ!! The
> majority of us poor Brits never seem to get beyond 1600 or even
1700. Do
> Americans have a link with those ancestors who have gone before and
> communicate daily with their wandering souls on the subject of
genealogy?
>
>
> PH >>
>
> I doubt that most of these genealogies are taken too seriously (back
to Adam
> and Eve). Many of these tables are religious in origin (from the
BIBLE, the
> Book of Morman, Talmud etc). Since these books were all written by
men and
> don't agree on all points, I think the writings are much like
> mythology...although my cultures have similiar stories about Great
Floods,
> Creation of the World, etc. This listing should prove that everyone
has
> their own slant on an issue.
>
> Some scientific proof attests to the activities in the Atlantic and
Pacific
> Oceans having had land masses that now are in the ocean (Atlantis).
Kyle VanLandingham
which have been traced far back into the medieval period. We are privileged
to have such excellent books as PLANTAGENET ANCESTRY OF SEVENTEENTH CENTURY
COLONISTS. All one needs to do is trace his line back to one of the
numerous colonists listed in this book and then the door opens. Lines are
then presented which carry these colonists' ancestry back for several
centuries.
Of course, I wouldn't take too seriously any lines which go back "almost
before the alleged birth of Christ."
Kyle
Kyle
James P. Robinson III
Plato's Atlantis is a memory of Minoan civilization is not much accepted
among Aegeanists. In fact, it falls well behind those that hold Thera was
Atlantis (IMHO, another unsupportable theory, despite some decent
arguments). The most commonly held academic opinion (although not my own)
is the Atlantis is a fictional land invented by Socrates for use in an
allegory and recorded by Plato. If anyone would like to pursue this
discussion, I would suggest that the Aegeanet list is a more appropriate forum.
Jim
As the clock struck 09:58 AM 7/5/1999 -0400, Aucht...@aol.com took pen in
hand and wrote:
>In a message dated 7/5/99 8:54:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>fad...@rio.com.br writes:
>
><< Aucht...@aol.com remarked:
>
> >Some scientific proof attests to the activities in the Atlantic and Pacific
> >Oceans having had land masses that now are in the ocean (Atlantis).
>
> Sorry, but - where did you get that? Atlantis is a distorted memory of
> the Knossos empire.
>
> chico
>
> Francisco Antonio Doria
>
> fad...@rio.com.br >>
>
>I have a book on Atlantis here...THE HISTORY OF ATLANTIS by Lewis Spence...it
>explores the writings of Plato and others...now I understand that these
>writings are way after the fact. :-) And that they can't be proven. It was
>merely an example of what might have been.
>
>Spence ponders all the different theories. AND there is scientific evidence
>of eons of volcanic activity involving the rising and falling of land masses.
> Port Royal in Jamaica would be a modern version of this. I have been there
>and they are still diving for artifacts there. Continental Drift would also
>fall into this category.
>
>ISpence says that the Canary Islands (they think) was the tip of part of
>Atlantis, if indeed it did exist.
>
>Don't shoot the messenger. I have loads more I can give as
>resources...however, my point quite simply was that many cultures have
>similiar stories about these events (Great Flood, etc).
>
>Maggie in Michigan :-)
>
--
********************************************************
James P. Robinson III
jpro...@ix.netcom.com
********************************************************
Chris Dickinson
"
We are privileged
to have such excellent books as PLANTAGENET ANCESTRY OF SEVENTEENTH CENTURY
COLONISTS. All one needs to do is trace his line back to one of the
numerous colonists listed in this book and then the door opens. Lines are
then presented which carry these colonists' ancestry back for several
centuries.
"
The problem is that the door often opens into fantasy.
Chris
Leslie Mahler
Kyle von Landingham writes :
Chris
---- Please note that much of the material in books by Faris, Weiss, etc
is based on articles in publications
such asThe American Genealogist, New England Historical & Biographical
Record, etc, which all require
full documentation for such claims.
Also note that the even though the US has a population of many millions,
there is only a small percentage of
researchers who have the ability to read the records from the 1600s and
before. One would expect there to be even
fewer of such researchers in England, or any other country for that
matter.
Doing research in countries such as France, Belgium, the Netherlands,
Sweden, etc are all much easier than
working in England. The main problem for most of those places is that
the notarial and court records have not been
indexed.
Leslie
Aucht...@aol.com
sej...@globalnet.co.uk writes:
<< Kyle von Landingham writes :
"
We are privileged
to have such excellent books as PLANTAGENET ANCESTRY OF SEVENTEENTH CENTURY
COLONISTS. All one needs to do is trace his line back to one of the
numerous colonists listed in this book and then the door opens. Lines are
then presented which carry these colonists' ancestry back for several
centuries.
"
The problem is that the door often opens into fantasy.
Chris
>>
Hello Chris,
I could not help but notice you are a Dickinson. I am from the Dykonsen's of
Well-Close on the Humber. Are you a relative?
Maggie in Michigan
Kyle VanLandingham
Are you attacking the book PLANTAGENET ANCESTRY OF SEVENTEENTH CENTURY
COLONISTS? Please be specific.
I was simply pointing out that the numerous early American colonists whose
medieval ancestry has been traced in this and other volumes makes it
possible for many Americans to tie into medieval lines.
I certainly hope that your door did not open into fantasy.
Also, the name is VanLandingham, not von Landingham.
Kyle
John Steele Gordon
[snip]
> Most Americans (from what I have seen) who can trace their ancestry
> back to Britain pre 1600 and earlier have first traced their ancestry
> to the early pioneer founders of their country and despite popular
> belief, the founders of America were not convicts, Scots and Irish
> prisoners of war and the like, they went later and provided the labour
> for the founders.
Quite a few early settlers in America arrived here either one jump ahead
of the sheriff or in his custody.
> The founders were mostly the families of gentry who
> sailed to look for new opportunities, or to find a place to practice
> their particular brands of belief away from pressure to conform.
This is overstating the case quite a bit. Some of the earliest settlers
were of gentry origin, but far more were not. Of the four major
migrations of English-speaking people to colonial America (The Puritans
to New England, the "cavaliers" to Virginia and Maryland, the Quakers to
the Delaware Valley, and the Scots-Irish to the back country) the
cavaliers had the highest percentage of gentry among them. But they were
far outnumbered by their indentured servants. Robert Brooke, for
instance, arrived in Maryland with his wife and ten children and no less
than 38 indentured servants.
I cannot recommend highly enough a book by David Hackett Fischer called
Albion's Seed: Four British Folkways in America. It contains an
astonishing amount of material on these four migrations and their effect
upon the history of the US teased with great care out of the raw data.
It is a long book (almost a 1000 pages) but it's worth it. History at
its very best.
John Steele Gordon
Stewart Baldwin
<pe...@maypowder.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>Why is it that our American cousins of British ancestry always seem to get
>their family tree back to almost before the alleged birth of Christ!! The
>majority of us poor Brits never seem to get beyond 1600 or even 1700. Do
>Americans have a link with those ancestors who have gone before and
>communicate daily with their wandering souls on the subject of genealogy?
I think that just looking at the postings on this newsgroup is
misleading. First, note that the U.S. has a larger internet presence
than any other country (and a larger population than most), so that it
is not surprising that Americans form the largest group of posters to
this newsgroup. Second, although some will join a forum such as this
simply because they find it interesting, most posters to a group like
this are going to be people who have either cracked the medieval
barrier, or at least believe that they have, so that the sample that
you would get from just this group is skewed. Living in America, I
have encountered many people here who are struggling to get their
ancestry beyond the 1800's.
Since one eighth of my ancestry comes from English immigrants who came
to the U.S. in 1851, I have done a considerable amount of research in
English records for the period prior to that year, and I have not
noticed a significant difference in difficulty between tracing English
and American lines. Of course, the sample of lines I have researched
would not be statistically significant, and therefore might not be
representative, but at least that has been my experience.
And anyone who claims to have traced his or her ancestry "back to
almost before the alleged birth of Christ" is mistaken.
Stewart Baldwin
Francisco Antonio Doria
>to the early pioneer founders of their country and despite popular
>belief, the founders of America were not convicts, Scots and Irish
>prisoners of war and the like, they went later and provided the labour
>for the founders. The founders were mostly the families of gentry who
>sailed to look for new opportunities, or to find a place to practice
>their particular brands of belief away from pressure to conform.
This kind of myth is also widespread among Brazilian historians. From
what I've learned, the `typical' settler was of gentle but modest birth
or with a mercantile background.
Francisco Antonio Doria
> You recollect that, do you, Chico? All of you 4,000 year old people are
>such fonts of wisdom, thank God you are here to tell us what 'really'
>happened in Knossos, and how the myth of Atlantis came to be.
> Really, though, perhaps you should stick to the better documented
>medieval time period, your 'opinion' on this issue notwithstanding...or do
>you by chance have microfiche of the old Knossian documents inscribed in
>Linear B which support your contention?
of course I'm not an expert on Knossos archeology. J. V. Luce's book has
is a bit too imaginative in some respects, but it sort of convinced me. I
mean, J. V. l., _The End of Atlantis_. And after all, this (proposed)
identification is an old one, Knossos = Atlantis.
Anyway, sure the mythical version, Colonel Fawcett-style, is much more
fascinating...
Francisco Antonio Doria
> You recollect that, do you, Chico? All of you 4,000 year old people are
>such fonts of wisdom, thank God you are here to tell us what 'really'
>happened in Knossos, and how the myth of Atlantis came to be.
> Really, though, perhaps you should stick to the better documented
>medieval time period, your 'opinion' on this issue notwithstanding...or do
>you by chance have microfiche of the old Knossian documents inscribed in
>Linear B which support your contention?
>
>Michael
I won't go on with this thread, since there is little chance we will find
anything genealogical in it. I have translated the relevant portions of
Plato a long time ago, just to see how they really `sounded,' to me at
least. And, IMHO the Knossos = Atlantis equation is a reasonable one.
Behind this particular - belief? - of mine there is another, deeper -
belief? - which I insistently verify. Behind each legend or myth there is
a historical nucleus. Oh, of course I know that the Atlantis narrative
would hardly qualify as myth. But the proposed parallels with Minoan
culture are fascinating, and seductive. Ant - there was some major
volcanic activity there, wasn't it?
Comments in pvt to me, please.
Leo van de Pas
>Vide infra.
>
>I hope Paul C. Reed will speak to this. He did once before and gave
>an excellent answer as to why many Americans have fewer troubles
>tracing their ancestry back to the 'Plantagenets', or at least further
>back, than do many British.
I don't agree that there are more Americans
than British who can take their lines back
to the Plantagenets. All we need to do is
take one volume out of the series "The Plantagenet
Roll of the Blood Royal". There are five of
such volumes and they start with Edward III
and go to about 1900.
In this wonderful book by Weis we have a starting
point, between 1623 and 1650, for only sixty
colonists. However, I think the reason, why
there seem to be more Americans, is simply that
those Brits know and take it for granted or
can't be bothered searching.
The USA, I feel, is in the process of maturity
a step further than Australia. The USA passed
the stage of establishing it's identity a long
time ago. And they feel secure enough to be
interested into the question "where did we come
from", the Brits know, many Australians are
still too busy establishing their Australianity.
Wasn't that a nice word?
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
>
>Perhaps he'll flesh it out a bit more this time.
>
>No, not to Biblical ancestors.
>
>D. Spencer Hines
>
>Lux et Veritas
>--
>
>D. Spencer Hines --- "Back in steerage [on a Boeing 747, over
>Newfoundland] where the package tours go, the fifty-two members of Old
>World Fantasy, a tour of eleven countries in seventeen days, are
>returning to Detroit and Windsor, Canada. Shoulder room is twenty
>inches. Hip room between armrests is twenty inches. This is two
>inches more space than a slave had on the Middle Passage." _Hannibal_,
>Thomas Harris, Delacorte Press, [1999], p. 247.
>
><Aucht...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:fee4a34d...@aol.com...
>> In a message dated 7/5/99 1:42:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>> pe...@maypowder.freeserve.co.uk writes:
>>
>> << Why is it that our American cousins of British ancestry always
>seem to get
>> their family tree back to almost before the alleged birth of
>Christ!! The
>> majority of us poor Brits never seem to get beyond 1600 or even
>1700. Do
>> Americans have a link with those ancestors who have gone before and
>> communicate daily with their wandering souls on the subject of
>genealogy?
>>
>>
>> PH >>
>>
>> I doubt that most of these genealogies are taken too seriously (back
>to Adam
>> and Eve). Many of these tables are religious in origin (from the
>BIBLE, the
>> Book of Morman, Talmud etc). Since these books were all written by
>men and
>> don't agree on all points, I think the writings are much like
>> mythology...although my cultures have similiar stories about Great
>Floods,
>> Creation of the World, etc. This listing should prove that everyone
>has
>> their own slant on an issue.
>>
>> Some scientific proof attests to the activities in the Atlantic and
>Pacific
>> Oceans having had land masses that now are in the ocean (Atlantis).
DavidBotts
If PLANTAGENET ANCESTRY OF SEVENTEENTH CENTURY
COLONISTS has some lame lines, please identify them. Many of your royals are
using that book as justification for attending our family reunion. It will
save us a few dollars in Fritos and bean dip if we can boot the imposters from
the party<g>
Dave Botts
>We are privileged to have such excellent books as PLANTAGENET ANCESTRY OF
SEVENTEENTH CENTURY
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> PEPIN LE GROS, of Heristal, founder of the Carolingian line
>
The exact nature of the relationship between Childebrand and Charles
Martel is the subject of both speculation and legend, but it is far from
certain that there is a Pepinid descent.
> NIVELON I, Count of Autun, Macon and the Vexin
>
> CHILDEBRAND II, Count of Autun, Macon, and the Vexin.
>
> ECCARD, Count of Autun, Macon, and the Vexin
>
> NIVELON II, Count of Autun, Macon and the Vexin.
>
> TERRIC, Count of Autun, Macon, and the Vexin.
>
> WALERAN, Hereditary Standard Bearer of France. He died in
> 965. He married Eldegarde, daughter of Arnulph I, "Magnus".
> Arnulph I, surnamed "Magnus", married in 923 Alisa de
> Vermandois, daughter of Heribert I, Count of Vermandois and
> Vexin, who was the great-grandson of Pepin, King of Italy,
> son of Charlemagne. Arnulph I was Count of Flanders, Amiens,
> and Artois, and died in 965. Wife of Arnulph I was Alisa de
> Vermandois, daughter of Heribert I, Count of Vexin and
> Vermandois.
The origin of the Counts of Amiens and Vexin have been much debated. We
were, over a decade ago, promissed a novel reconstruction by David
Kelley, but I have yet to see one. There seems general agreement of
some kind of link to the Nivelons, but the exact nature of this link is
not known with any degree of reliability. (Likewise, this marriage of
Waleran to a daughter of Arnulf the Great is unlikely.)
> WALTER I, Count of Vexin and Amiens, 995. He gave land
> to the Abbey of Soissons. He married Eve, daughter of
> Landry, Count of Dreux.
>
> RALF, fourth son, Sire de Tirel and Poix, Viscount of
> Amiens; married a daughter of Guernanville. He was the
> first to adopt the name which has descended to the
> Tyrrell family of England and Ireland and to the
> Tyrrells, Terrells, and Terrills of this country. He
> had his castle near the village of Tirel, on the banks
> of the river Seine, a short distance below Paris. This
> village is now known as Triel, a transposition of two
> letters.
This derivation of the Tyrells from the Counts of Vexin is entirely
unsupported. It was quite common to trace later Norman families to
younger sons of the various Counts of NW France, and those from
Charlemagne and his kin, but this was done without the benefit of
supporting evidence (see, for example, the Burke/Burgh forged line). If
you are lucky, then the descent of the Tyrells back to this Ralph is
reliable, but nothing before it.
taf
Doug Gentile
<pe...@maypowder.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>Why is it that our American cousins of British ancestry
always seem to get
>their family tree back to almost before the alleged
birth of Christ!! The
>majority of us poor Brits never seem to get beyond 1600
or even 1700. Do
>Americans have a link with those ancestors who have
gone before and
>communicate daily with their wandering souls on the
subject of genealogy?
And Stuart Baldwin Replied: First, note that the U.S.
has a larger internet presence
than any other country (and a larger population than
most), so that it
is not surprising that Americans form the largest group
of posters to
this newsgroup. Second, although some will join a forum
such as this
simply because they find it interesting, most posters to
a group like
this are going to be people who have either cracked the
medieval
barrier, or at least believe that they have, so that the
sample that
you would get from just this group is skewed. Living in
America, I
have encountered many people here who are struggling to
get their
ancestry beyond the 1800's.
I agree with Mr. Baldwin's assessment, and would add another reason to
the list. Because we Americans tend not to be able to frequent places
where medieval primary sources exist (Europe etc.), and because as a
nation, we tend to not be multi-lingual, I would hypothesize that most
of us who do genealogy as a hobby rely heavily on other people's work
and secondary sources. The Internet affords us easy access to other
people's genealogies. Let me use myself as an example for the egregious
errors that Mr. Haizelden alludes to.
When I found my immigrant ancestor, I began tracing him back by relying
on published genealogies on the Web. Not having access to the primary
sources, I tried to find multiple genealogies that showed the family
structures the same way. Some of the genealogies traced the lineage
back to Roman times, and some even went back to Adam and Eve! I took
what seemed potentially reasonable, and then joined this learned group
to find out which of these claims could actually be substantiated. Much
of the information I had was "correct" (as defined by peer review), but
all of the descent from antiquity information was shown not to be.
People who pursue genealogy only as a hobby may not know that this forum
exists to help separate the wheat from the chaff of all the information
that is now easily available.
Doug
sk...@ix.netcom.com
Doria) wrote:
>Aucht...@aol.com remarked:
>
>>Some scientific proof attests to the activities in the Atlantic and Pacific
>>Oceans having had land masses that now are in the ocean (Atlantis).
>
>Sorry, but - where did you get that? Atlantis is a distorted memory of
>the Knossos empire.
>
Sorry, but - where did you get that? The earliest recorded mention of
Atlantis is probably in Plato's Republic and the description there
includes "beyond the Gates of Hercules." The [oral?] traditions on
which Plato relied (if he did not make up the legend out of whole
cloth) may have been distorted memories of some actual past
conditions, but it is facile to point unconditionally at Knossos as
the paradigm of the legend.
Bryant Smith
Austin, Texas
Francisco Antonio Doria
>The earliest recorded mention of
>Atlantis is probably in Plato's Republic and the description there
>includes "beyond the Gates of Hercules.
Since this was posted to the list, I'll answer it in brief:
1 - There are two passages in Plato that refer to Atlantis, in the Timaeus and in the Critias. The last is the longer one, and is cut short (we don't have it in full).
2 - One of the most striking parallels between Minoan culture and Plato's Atlantis is Plato's depiction of a bullfight in Atlantis where one uses nets to control the bull - precisely as shown in at least one Minoan vase.
There are other sources for the identification. Atlantis is a Greek word; if we look for Crete's Egyptian name we get Keftiu [vowel uncertainty, as usual], which roughly translates as `pillar' (my source is Wallis Budge; I'm not an expert, please), which fits with the derivation of Atlantis from the mythic Atlas.
The idea is that Plato sort of elaborated on an actual tale told by kinsman Solon, who had been in Egypt.
As for `beyond the Gates of Heracles,' this might be a metaphor for `in the open sea, far to the west,' Crete's location from the Egyptians' viewpoint.
My source is Plato (which I translated into Portuguese a long time ago, for the fun of it) plus Luce's recent (60s book) and some papers by Marinatos.
As for this opinion not being consensual among archaeologists, let me say two things:
a) Before Hrozny's translation, nobody could believe that Hittite was an indo-european language. Yet,
``Nu ninda-an ezzateni, vadarma ekkuteni''
is *clearly* I-E: nu, Gk nun, Grm nun, Lat nunc Eng now; ezzateni, Engl eat Grm essen Lt edo; -an, accusative; vadar, - water...
The same with Ventris' decipherment of Linear B. Who'd guess it was Greek? Not even Ventris himself.
So much for expert opinions. We - now I include myself in that select and most exhalted group - the experts are always made into idiots, in the long run.
b) How long has man been in the Americas? 11 thousand years, you'd say. wrong. I've been as an external observer at a site excavated in Brazil by my colleague and friend Dr. Maria Beltrão, together with French archaeologist Prof. Henry de Lumley, and *saw* in situ several obviously man-made tools made of bones which were dated by A-K techniques in two independent labs, in California and in Israel: 300,000 yrs to 1,000,000.
So much for expert opinions. Here I prefer to use Ockham's Razor plus another minimalist criterion: do not fight the facts.
Francisco Antonio Doria
Chris Dickinson
Dave Botts writes : "Hi Chris:
"If PLANTAGENET ANCESTRY OF SEVENTEENTH CENTURY
COLONISTS has some lame lines, please identify them. "
My comment was not meant to denigrate 'Plantagenet
Ancestry', which I haven't read and which may well be an
excellent and scholarly work. However, re-reading my short
comment I can see that it does imply a direct criticism ...
for which my apologies and a retraction.
My concern is with "excellent books" (or articles for that
matter) that make leaps of faith rather than links of fact
between colonists and their roots; and with the continuing
'legitimisation' of pedigrees that are not based on recent
scholarship but on the 'romantic' or 'unfounded' genealogy
of earlier generations.
Many of my views have already been expressed in other recent
postings, so I won't make a general case. Perhaps, however,
I may be allowed to illustrate my point by a short
illustration from American perceptions of my own surname. A
pedigree was provided by a genealogist in 1897/1901 that
traced a Dickinson pedigree back to 1260; and this work
provided the basis for a claim in 1978 for a common ancestry
for 'virtually every colonial Dickinson family from
Massachusetts to Virginia'. This has legitimised a largely
spurious pedigree, despite recent debunkings and the evident
nonsense of the original scholarship, and continues to
avalanche on the Internet.
That sort of scenario, I guess, is not unusual in surname
roots searching ... the worry is that the populist nature of
modern technology and financial temptations of a booming
market for genealogy will swamp primary research.
Chris
DavidBotts
We will remove no entries based on Faris' work from The Database unless anyone
raises an objection to the accuracy of a line shown.
Thanks,
Dave Botts
D. Spencer Hines
We need more like it.
Does anyone have a projected publication date for the postulated new
edition of Gary Boyd Roberts' RD500? Is it in galley proofs yet?
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
--
D. Spencer Hines --- Warriors --- "There is much tradition and
mystique in the bequest of personal weapons to a surviving comrade in
arms. It has to do with a continuation of values past individual
mortality. People living in a time made safe for them by others may
find this difficult to understand." _Hannibal_, Thomas Harris,
Delacorte Press, [1999], p. 397.
DavidBotts <david...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990707124927...@ng-xb1.aol.com...
Leslie Mahler
There is still a good deal of trash floating about, as far as American
genealogy goes.
On the other hand, there is also a good deal of excellent information
available as well,
but most of that is found in the noted periodicals, of which many still
seem to be unaware.
Unfortunately, there are many that havent yet learned to differentiate
between a badly constructed pedigree and
and a solidly researched line.
One reason why I have commented on the Plantagenet Ancestry book is
because I myself
have contributed a line to the said work. The lineage in question is
through the county of Nottingham, and there
are probably hundreds of people who descend from it in England and the
US. There is also a line in Australia that descends from it.
As for using lineages that are posted on the internet, that will be the
mode for those who dont want to do any work, but just
want to find quick easy information, without the hassle of documentation
(much like the Ancestral File).
Leslie
James P. Robinson III
and the Critias, which are reported as being lectures told by Socrates.
As the clock struck 11:12 AM 7/7/1999 +0000, sk...@ix.netcom.com took pen
in hand and wrote:
>On 5 Jul 1999 05:51:24 -0700, fad...@rio.com.br (Francisco Antonio
>Doria) wrote:
>
>>Aucht...@aol.com remarked:
>>
>>>Some scientific proof attests to the activities in the Atlantic and Pacific
>>>Oceans having had land masses that now are in the ocean (Atlantis).
>>
>>Sorry, but - where did you get that? Atlantis is a distorted memory of
>>the Knossos empire.
>>
>Sorry, but - where did you get that? The earliest recorded mention of
>Atlantis is probably in Plato's Republic and the description there
>includes "beyond the Gates of Hercules." The [oral?] traditions on
>which Plato relied (if he did not make up the legend out of whole
>cloth) may have been distorted memories of some actual past
>conditions, but it is facile to point unconditionally at Knossos as
>the paradigm of the legend.
>
>Bryant Smith
>Austin, Texas
>
>
>>chico
>>
>>Francisco Antonio Doria
>>
>>fad...@rio.com.br
>>
>
--