Corrected St. John ancestry

[Portculis]

My apologies for having posted prematurely before. I haven't found my notes
(at this point I won't take the time to look for them anymore), but I quickly
worked up the following. To my relief, it is clear that what I remembered is
correct. There is no reson to doubt the pedigree as it was presented in the
previous posts, correcting one birthdate. The following is what I can prove
from original sources:

1. Oliver St. John, said to be of Fonmon, Glamorgan. I have not had time to
check yet, but he may be son of Alexander St. John of Instow, co. Devon, who
was living in 1340. Alexander is said to have married Elizabeth, daughter of
Sir Henry Umphreville of Penmark, Glamorgan. There are earlier conflicting
pedigrees which make Sir John St. John father of Alexander, and make that Sir
John son of William St. John of Fonmon, who is supposed to be a younger son of
Sir Robert de St. John of Basing [d. Mar. 1266/7].
The line from Sir Robert back five more generations to Hugh de Port is
certain, but I have not seen evidence for the father and grandfather of
Alexander yet, so the connection is still tentative.
Oliver St. John held lands in cos. Devon and Somerset, and died in August
1374. He married, by 19 June 1335 (the date of her proof of age), Elizabeth de
Luccombe, b. 1320 at Stockleigh Luccombe, co. Devon, daughter and eventual heir
of Hugh de Luccombe. They had two sons, (1) John St. John (see below) and (2)
Henry St. John.

2. John St. John, born possibly 1340 (his mother was only 14-15 in 1335), of
Fonmon, Glamorgan, and East Luccombe, Somerset. His brother Henry unlawfully
entered and took possession of his inheritance after his death. John married
Elizabeth, daughter and coheir of Agnes de la Bere of Coity (Glamorgan) and
Watertown.
I assume (but I need to check my files again) from the chronology that
Agnes de la Bere of Coity is the Agnes who was wife of Sir John de la Bere.
Agnes was one of four daughters and eventual heirs (after the deaths of Sir
Gilbert and Richard de Turberville and their heirs) of Payne and Wenllian de
Turberville of Coity, Glamorgan. Payne, dead by 1318/19, had served as
Sheriff of Glamorgan in 1315 and appointed keeper of the castles and lands of
Gilbert de Clare "late" Earl of Gloucester, and Cardiff Castle during royal
pleasure. A younger sister, Sarah de Turberville, married Gilbert Gamage, and
it was through their family that Coity eventually descended. The Cartae of
Glamorgan document that an earlier Gilbert de Turbervill had married Matilda,
daughter of Morgan Chan. They were parents of Richard de Turbervile, father of
Payne de Turberville (above). Back to the main line:

3. Sir John de St. John, born after 1360, but before 1363, at Salisbury,
Wilts., died 26 Dec. 1424. He was knighted by 1388. He married, by Easter
1395, Isabel/Elizabeth, widow of Sir John de Paveley. Sir John became a member
of Richard II's household. Sir John proved his worth and held many positions
in Wales and England, and was even appointed Mayor of Bordeaux by Henry V.

4. Sir Oliver St. John, born by 1398, was aged 26 at his father's death.
Oliver's witnessed the conveyance of the manor of Llanfair, Glamorgan, and was
mentioned in other Welsh records. As his father was such a prominent member of
the royal household, it is no wonder that he was married, as her first husband,
to Margaret Beauchamp (the "de" in surnames was generally dropped about 1400),
heir of the Barony of Bletsoe. Margaret was born about 1409-10 (aged 11 in
1420-1), and DIED IN 1482-3. Her first husband, Sir Oliver, died in 1437.
As previously stated, Margaret married, second, John Beaufort, Duke of
Somerset, by whom she was grandmother of Henry VII. It was probably because of
this close connection with the House of Tudor that her eldest son and heir was
made a Knight of the Bath after Henry VII ascended the throne.

5. SIr John St. John, Knight of the Bath, was found to be aged forty or more
AT THE DEATH OF HIS MOTHER in 1482-3. As his father died in 1437, he must have
been born shortly before his father's death. He married Alice Bradshaw,
daughter of Thomas Bradshaw of the Haugh, Lancashire. Bartrum states that he
married (2) Elizabeth, daughter of Wililam Fawr, son of Sir David Mathew of
Llandaf Court. I have no reason to doubt this, but all children are indicated
to be by the first wife, Alice. Strangely, no inquisition or will has been
found for this Sir John.
Sir John and Alice (Bradshaw) St. John also had a daughter, Anne St. John,
who married, by 1493 (the birth year of their son and heir), Henry, Lord
Clifford, "the Shepherd Lord."

6. Sir John St. John, Knight of the Bath, of Bletsoe, Bedfordshire, was
probably born by 1460 (certainly several years earlier than 1475). He married
Sybil, daughter of Rhys ap Morgan ap Jenkin. (I have to check Bartrum again,
as I think he said Sir John married Margared v. Morgan ap Jenkin. Morgan ap
Jenkin had married [2] Margared, daughter of Sir David Mathew of Llandaf Court
[above].)
Sir John St. John died in 1525, leaving a will proved in the PCC. His
inquisition post mortem found that his son and heir, John, was aged 30 and
more. A daughter Alice had married, before 1505, Henry Parker, Lord Morley.
As their son and heir Henry Parker was a page of the Chamber to Henry VIII in
1516, Alice was clearly several years older than her brother John (b. 1495),
which pushes her parent's marriage date back before 1485. This is important as
it eliminates any possiblity of an extra generation between the Sir John St.
John who was son of Margaret Beauchamp and Sir John who died in 1525.

7. Sir John St. John, born in or before 1495, died in 1558. His monumental
inscription says he was raised by Margaret Beaufort (d. 1509). He married
Margaret Walgrave by 1521, and was father of Oliver St. John, 1st Lord St. John
of Bletsoe (d. 1581-2).
I hope this in some way makes up for the confusion of my previous posts.

Cheers.

[Leslie Mahler]

Many thanks for the lineage of Saint John. Im just wondering what your
sources are on this, since Ive never been able to find this ancestry
elsewhere. I should mention that theres a webpage out there that has
Oliver (who married Margaret Beauchamp) as being the son of John St John
and Elizabeth DeUmfraville.
Currently Im collecting data on the Bradshaigh ancestry, which was given
very inaccurately in Burkes Dormant and Extinct Baronetcies.

Thanks again,
Leslie

[Tanya Marshall]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
My apologies for having posted prematurely before. I haven't found my notes
(at this point I won't take the time to look for them anymore), but I quickly
worked up the following. To my relief, it is clear that what I remembered is
correct. There is no reson to doubt the pedigree as it was presented in the
previous posts, correcting one birthdate. The following is what I can prove
from original sources:
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Would you please list those sources for us? It would be much appreciated!

>Tanya

[Diana Trenchard]

Can it also be confirmed that Oliver St John and Margaret Beauchamp had a
daughter Margaret who became a nun at Shaftesbury Abbey in 1441, Abbess
there in 1460, and died in 1491?

Diana Trenchard

[Portculis]

There is an interesting pedigree said to be dated temp. Henry VII, but it
includes children not born until sometime after 1500, so it actually dates to
the latter part of Henry VIII. It is printed in _Collectanea Topographica i
Genealogica_ 1:310-11. It states that John St. John, son of Margaret
Beauchamp, was father of "A Nun of Shaftesbury." But as this John was not born
until about 1437, the dates above don't match that girl. In Bridges' Collins'
Peerage's account of this family, the early part of which is completely
fictitious, it claims she was Margaret, Lady Abbess of Shaftesbury, but it
places her as daughter of Oliver St. John of Lydiard Tregoze, son of Margaret
Beauchamp, which also doesn't agree with the chronology. Oliver of Lydiard
Tregoze left a will which I haven't checked yet, in which he styles himself
"sonne to the excellent Duchesse of Somersett." I have not had time to check
other sources about the Abbess of her correct dates.

I have had time to check a few more original sources and some secondary works.
The first Oliver de St. John was indeed son of Alexander de St. John.
Alexander bought the wardship and marriage of John de Luccombe, son and heir of
Hugh de Luccombe, then a minor, 8 Edward III [1335-6]. He died young,
unmarried and without issue, however, leaving his sister Elizabeth, [already]
wife of Oliver St. John, then aged 13, as his heir (CIPM 7:406-7 [no. 595],
487-8 [no. 697]). I have already mentioned Elizabeth's proof of age.

Elizabeth, late wife of Alexander de St. John died Wednesday after St.
Bartholomew last (writ dated 3 Sep. 19 Edw. III). Elizabeth wife of Oliver de
St. John was the heir and of age (CIPM 8:468 [no. 568]). The lands concerned
were Estlokcombe, Somerset (later Devon).

Alexander is the earliest generation that can be definitely traced, and the
identity of his wife is not yet certain. The pedigrees make her daughter of
Sir Henry Umphreville of Penmark.

There is a dispute about earlier ancestry. An article by John Brownbill, a
careful and knowledgeable genealogist and historian specializing in Cheshire
records, looked at the St. John family. It might be that the St. Johns were
from Instow, Devon, where a John de St. John was lord in 1242/3, and where an
Alexander de St. John presented to the chruch in 1337. Brownbill followed a
very detailed account by Charles E. H. Chadwyck Healey in his History of West
Somerset (1901), but it would seem he has missinterpreted evidence which
Brownbill trustingly followed.

Or, the St. John family of Bletsoe might be descended from a William de St.
John who is mentioned in Glamorgan charters in 1284 and 1289. I think this is
certainly true, as both this William and later Sir Oliver witnessed
confirmations to Neath in Wales. Sir John St. John and Sir Oliver St. John (d.
1437) were both very active in Glamorgan, so a Welsh connection is certain.
Llyfr Baglan (compiled 1600-7) says that Oliver St. John of Bletsoe and William
Basset of "Clamorgan, esquire that nowe is" were the heirs general of Sir John
de la Bere, knight, and Agnes his wife, one of the sisters and heirs of Sir
Richard de Turberville of Coity (p. 277), and that "the right hon'able lord St.
John of Bledso" was holder of the castle and manor of Penmark which had been
Sir Gilbert de Umfreville's when Glamorgan was conquered (p. 281).

The St. Johns of Ffwl-y-mwn (Fonmor) supported Welsh poets and bards such as
Lewis Morgannwg (temp. Hen. VIII) who wrote of them. And pedigrees such as the
Visitation of Huntingdon, 1613 (Camd. Soc. 43:2) state Margaret Beauchamp's
husband Sir Oliver to be of Penmark, and their son Sir John as of Bletsoe. I
think Fonmon was in the parish of Penmark.

If I have time, I will try to set out the evidence and reasoning concerning the
earliest generations of the St. Johns. There is no certain evidence (other
than the inaccurate pedigrees) as to how or if the St. Johns married an heiress
of the Umphrevilles of Glamorgan.

There is a collection of St. John of Bletsoe material at the Bedford Record
Office, but "The collection has suffered very badly by damp, vermin, and
careless handling, and was literally wet when deposited. It contains very
little which is older than the 17th century, and tends to confim the rumor,
heard some years ago, that the late Moubray Lord St. John (d. 1934) had burnt
many of the earlier documents."

One other miscellaneous note, Sir John Saint John was inducted into the Bath on
29 Nov. 1489, when Prince Arthur was created Prince of Wales. Nicholas Audeby
and Thomas Digby were his esquires. (History of the Orders of Knighthood...,
Sir Nicholas Harris Nicolas, 3:[Bath]x.)

My next post on this matter probably won't be until Sunday.

Hope this has been of interest.