Neville, Grey and Mowbrays
Penny Temple-Watts
Iam hoping that some kind person might be able to answer my fifty
million (not quite!) questions.
I have a copy of two Chambers family trees, researched in the mid
1850's. One shows Katherine Neville (daughter of Sir Ralph Neville, Ist
Earl of Westmoreland and Joan (says only daughter of John of Gaunt - was
she the only daughter?) as marrying John Mowbray (Duke of Norfolk who
died in 1432- when was he born? I have seen 1392 and 1398?). Katherine
and Norfolk had a daughter Katherine Mowbray. What were the names of
their other children? Are dates known for them? Katherine Mowbray
(daughter) married Sir Thomas Grey (though I've seen Gray- which is it?)
of Chillingham, Heaton and Barwick - was it of all three?
Katherine Mowbray and Sir Thomas Grey had a son Sir Thomas Grey of
Heaton , of Werke or Warke (which?) who seems to have married his
grandmother Katherine Neville's younger sister Alice as she is also
listed as being the daughter of Sir Ralph Neville, 1st Earl of
Westmoreland, in other words, his great aunt! Is this right? How old
were they both?
The second Sir Thomas Grey I mentioned was then beheaded (why?)and Alice
then married Sir Gilbert de Lancaster. Our line follows through:
Sir Thomas Grey married Alice Neville
their son,Sir Ralph Grey married Elizabeth FitzHugh
their son, Sir Ralph Grey married Jacquetta someone (He was beheaded
after the Siege of Bamborough episode)
their son, Sir Edward or Edmund Grey(which?) married Anne Gower
their son, Sir Ralph Grey married Isabel Grey (how were they related?)
their son, Henry Grey married Mary Widdrington
Tony Ewbank married their daughter Mary Grey
their son, Thomas Ewbank married Jane Raine
Matthew Curry married their daughter, Hannah Ewbank
Richard Metcalf(e) married their daughter, Dorothy Curry
Robert Chambers married their daughter Anne Metcalf(e)
and by now we're up to the the 1700's and well and truly not medieval!
However there is a direct line from all this to me, and my 11 year old
son said "Mum, I want to know, if we're related to all these kings and
queens and stuff, how come we're not rich?" I told him there were
millions of people in the same boat, we were rich in history, money
isn't everything, and that it's the sort of person you are today that
counts.
Nevertheless!
How were any of these Greys related to Lady Jane Grey?
There seems to be much confusion when we look at the Chambers on the 2nd
tree as the 1500 and 1600's had many Chambers living in the area around
Durham/Newcastle and some pages have been removed from parish registers.
So I'll save that one for another day and perhaps another forum as I'm
not sure if we can discuss them here. Questions were raised in the
1800's as to the accuracy of some of the claims on the 2nd tree.
I hope some one is able to help. I find some of the trees shown in
rootsweb pages difficult to understand and am not sure what the
reference numbers refer to, or the different symbols eg "+", etc.
Perhaps someone could interpret as I am new to this.
Many thanks
Penny Temple-Watts
Melbourne, Australia
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
ED MANN
<edited>
> The second Sir Thomas Grey I mentioned was then beheaded (why?)and Alice
> then married Sir Gilbert de Lancaster. Our line follows through:
> Sir Thomas Grey married Alice Neville
> their son,Sir Ralph Grey married Elizabeth FitzHugh
> their son, Sir Ralph Grey married Jacquetta someone (He was beheaded
> after the Siege of Bamborough episode)
> their son, Sir Edward or Edmund Grey(which?) married Anne Gower
> their son, Sir Ralph Grey married Isabel Grey (how were they related?)
> their son, Henry Grey married Mary Widdrington
> Tony Ewbank married their daughter Mary Grey
> their son, Thomas Ewbank married Jane Raine
> Matthew Curry married their daughter, Hannah Ewbank
> Richard Metcalf(e) married their daughter, Dorothy Curry
> Robert Chambers married their daughter Anne Metcalf(e)
> Nevertheless!
> How were any of these Greys related to Lady Jane Grey?
Their name is Gray, not Grey. There are links (probably several), but
not a Gray line:
They are cousins:
Direct Descendants of Ralph de Neville
1 [1] Sir Ralph de Neville aka: 1st Earl of Westmorland b: Abt. 1364
d: 21 Oct 1425 ref #: W45-7
*2nd Wife of [1] Ralph de Neville:
+Joan Beaufort b: Abt. 1379 d: 13 Nov 1440 ref #: F15:11iv
2 Sir Richard Neville aka: Earl of Salisbury b: Abt. 1400 d: 30 Dec
1460 ref #: F15:11ivb
+Alice Montacute b: Abt. 1408 d: Bef. 9 Dec 1462 ref #: F193:8
3 [3] Katherine Neville b: Abt. 1435 d: Bef. 25 Mar 1504 ref #:
F134:8
+William Bonville b: 1442 d: 30 Dec 1460 ref #: F28:7
4 [2] Cecily Bonville b: 1461 d: 12 Apr 1530 ref #: F28:7i
+Sir Thomas Grey aka: 1st Marquess of Dorset b: Abt. 1453 d: 10 Apr
1501 ref #: F119:5
5 Sir Thomas Grey aka: 2d Marquess of Dorset b: 22 Jun 1477 d: 10 Oct
1530 ref #: F120:4
+Margaret Wotton d: Aft. 6 Oct 1535 ref #: BxP:593
6 [7] Sir Henry Grey aka: 3d Marquess of Dorset / Duke of Suffolk d:
1554 ref #: BxP:250
+[6] Frances Brandon b: 16 Jul 1517 d: 1559 ref #: BxP:71
7 Jane Grey d: 1554 ref #: BxP:71
*2nd Husband of [2] Cecily Bonville:
*2nd Husband of [3] Katherine Neville:
2 Cecily Neville b: 3 May 1415 d: 31 May 1495 ref #: F15:11ivh
+Sir Richard Plantagenet aka: 3d Duke of York b: 21 Sep 1411 d: 30
Dec 1460 ref #: F292:7
3 [4] King Edward IV of England b: 28 Apr 1442 d: 9 Apr 1483 ref #:
F292:7ii
*2nd Wife of [4] Edward IV of England:
*3rd Wife of [4] Edward IV of England:
+Elizabeth Wydeville b: Abt. 1437 d: 8 Jun 1492 ref #: BxP:584
4 Princess Elizabeth Plantagenet aka: Elizabeth of York b: 11 Feb
1464/65 d: 11 Feb 1502/03 ref #: F292:7iid
+King Henry VII of England aka: Henry Tudor b: 28 Jan 1456/57 d: 21
Apr 1509 ref #: F16:10iia1
5 [5] Mary Tudor b: 18 Mar 1495/96 d: 25 Jun 1533
*2nd Husband of [5] Mary Tudor:
+Sir Charles Brandon aka: 1st Duke of Suffolk d: 1545 ref #: BxP:71
6 [6] Frances Brandon b: 16 Jul 1517 d: 1559 ref #: BxP:71
+[7] Sir Henry Grey aka: 3d Marquess of Dorset / Duke of Suffolk d:
1554 ref #: BxP:250
*2nd Husband of [6] Frances Brandon:
--
FWIW; AFAIK; IMHO; YMMV; yadda, yadda, yadda.
Regards, Ed Mann mailto:edl...@mail2.lcia.com
References:
Ä = Weis, _Ancestral_Roots_, 7th ed.
AACPW = Roberts & Reitwiesner, _American Ancestors and Cousins of
the Princess of Wales_, [page].
AAP = Roberts, _Ancestors_of_American_Presidents_, [page] or
[Pres. # : page].
BP1 = _Burke's_Presidential_Families_, 1st ed. [page].
BPci = _Burke's_Peerage_, 101st ed., [page].
BRF = Weir, _Britain's_Royal_Families_, [page].
BxP = _Burke's_Dormant_&_Extinct_Peerages_, [page].
EC1 = Redlich, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol I, [page].
EC2 = Langston & Buck, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,
[page].
EC3 = Buck & Beard, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,
[page].
F = Faris, _Plantagenet_Ancestry_, [page:para].
NK1 = Roberts, _Notable_Kin_Volume_One_, [page].
Π= Hardy, _Colonial_Families_of_the_Southern_States_of_America_,
[page].
S = Stuart, _Royalty_for_Commoners_, 2d ed. Caveat emptor.
W = Weis, _Magna_Charta_Sureties,_1215_, 4th ed.
WFT = Broderbund's World Family Tree CD, [vol]:[num] Caveat emptor.
WMC = Wurt's Magna Charta, [vol]:[page]
ED MANN
< . . . and I edited. So sue me. 8^) >
> I have a copy of two Chambers family trees, researched in the mid
> 1850's. One shows Katherine Neville (daughter of Sir Ralph Neville, Ist
> Earl of Westmoreland and Joan (says only daughter of John of Gaunt - was
> she the only daughter?)
By no means:
Descendants of Joan Beaufort
1 [1] Joan Beaufort b: Abt. 1379 d: 13 Nov 1440 ref #: F15:11iv
+Sir Robert de Ferrers aka: 2d Baron Ferrers of Wemme b: Abt. 1373
d: 1396 ref #: W102-8
2 Elizabeth de Ferrers b: 1392 d: 1434 ref #: Ä62-35
+Sir John de Greystoke aka: 6th Baron Greystoke b: 1389 d: 8 Aug
1436 ref #: BxP:254
2 Mary de Ferrers aka: Margery de Ferrers b: Abt. 1394 d: 25 Jan
1457/58 ref #: F15:11iva
+Sir Ralph Neville b: Abt. 1392 d: 26 Feb 1457/58 ref #: F204:9
*2nd Husband of [1] Joan Beaufort:
+Sir Ralph de Neville aka: 1st Earl of Westmorland b: Abt. 1364 d:
21 Oct 1425 ref #: W45-7
2 [2] Katherine Neville aka: Dowager Duchess of Norfolk b: Abt. 1397
d: Aft. Jan 1477/78 ref #: BxP:394
+Sir John de Mowbray aka: 8th Baron Mowbray b: 1398 d: 1432 ref #:
BxP:388
*2nd Husband of [2] Katherine Neville:
+Thomas Strangeways
*3rd Husband of [2] Katherine Neville:
+John Beaumont d: 1460
*4th Husband of [2] Katherine Neville:
+Sir John Wydeville b: Abt. 1445 d: 12 Aug 1469 ref #: BxP:584
2 Joan Neville b: Abt. 1398
2 Sir Richard Neville aka: Earl of Salisbury b: Abt. 1400 d: 30 Dec
1460 ref #: F15:11ivb
+Alice Montacute b: Abt. 1408 d: Bef. 9 Dec 1462 ref #: F193:8
2 Henry Neville b: Abt. 1402
2 Thomas Neville b: Abt. 1403
+Alice Seymour
2 Cuthbert Neville b: Abt. 1405
2 [3] Alainor Neville b: Abt. 1407 d: 1472 ref #: F15:11ivf
+Richard le Despencer b: 1396 d: 1414 ref #: BxP:167
*2nd Husband of [3] Alainor Neville:
+Sir Henry Percy aka: 2d Earl of Northumberland b: 3 Feb 1392/93 d:
22 May 1455 ref #: F149:9
2 Robert Neville b: Abt. 1408 d: 1457
2 Sir William Neville aka: Earl of Kent b: Abt. 1409 d: 9 Jan 1462/63
ref #: F15:11ivc
+Joan de Fauconberg b: 18 Oct 1406 d: 11 Dec 1490 ref #: BxP:397
2 [4] Anne Neville b: Abt. 1411 d: 20 Sep 1480 ref #: F15:11ivg
+Sir Humphrey Stafford aka: 6th Earl of Stafford / 1st Duke of
Buckingham b: 15 Aug 1402 d: 10 Jul 1460 ref #: F7:9
*2nd Husband of [4] Anne Neville:
+Sir Walter Blount aka: 1st Baron Mountjoy b: Abt. 1420 d: 1474 ref
#: BxP:55
2 John Neville b: Abt. 1413
2 Sir George Neville aka: 1st Lord Latimer b: Abt. 1414 d: 30 Dec
1469 ref #: F15:11ivd
+Elizabeth de Beauchamp b: 1417 d: Bef. 1480 ref #: F14:8
2 Cecily Neville b: 3 May 1415 d: 31 May 1495 ref #: F15:11ivh
+Sir Richard Plantagenet aka: 3d Duke of York b: 21 Sep 1411 d: 30
Dec 1460 ref #: F292:7
2 [5] Sir Edward Neville aka: Baron Bergavenny b: Abt. 1417 d: 18 Oct
1476 ref #: F15:11ive
+Elizabeth Beauchamp b: 16 Sep 1415 d: 18 Jun 1448 ref #: F211:6
*2nd Wife of [5] Edward Neville:
+Katherine Howard b: Abt. 1414 d: Aft. 1478 ref #: F197:8ii
> as marrying John Mowbray (Duke of Norfolk who
> died in 1432- when was he born? I have seen 1392 and 1398?).
I have 1398, source unknown.
> Katherine and Norfolk had a daughter Katherine Mowbray. What were the names of
> their other children? Are dates known for them? Katherine Mowbray
> (daughter) married Sir Thomas Grey (though I've seen Gray- which is it?)
> of Chillingham, Heaton and Barwick - was it of all three?
I have nothing on Katherine Mowbray, but do show:
Descendants of John de Mowbray
1 Sir John de Mowbray aka: 8th Baron Mowbray b: 1398 d: 1432 ref #:
BxP:388
+Katherine Neville aka: Dowager Duchess of Norfolk b: Abt. 1397 d:
Aft. Jan 1477/78 ref #: BxP:394
2 Sir John Mowbray aka: 3d Duke of Norfolk b: 1415 d: 1461 ref #:
BxP:389
+Anne Bourchier aka: Eleanor Bourchier b: Abt. 1417 d: 1486 ref #:
BxP:65
3 Sir John Mowbray aka: 4th Duke of Norfolk d: 1475 ref #: BxP:389
+Elizabeth Talbot ref #: BxP:526
4 Anne Mowbray ref #: BxP:389
+Sir Richard Plantagenet aka: Duke of York b: 17 Aug 1473 d: 1483
ref #: F292:7iib
> Katherine Mowbray and Sir Thomas Grey had a son Sir Thomas Grey of
> Heaton , of Werke or Warke (which?) who seems to have married his
> grandmother Katherine Neville's younger sister Alice as she is also
> listed as being the daughter of Sir Ralph Neville, 1st Earl of
> Westmoreland, in other words, his great aunt! Is this right? How old
> were they both?
A few things are mixed up here. First, Alice is the half sister of
Katherine Neville, by Sir Ralph's 1st wife, Margaret de Stafford:
Descendants of Ralph de Neville
1 [3] Sir Ralph de Neville aka: 1st Earl of Westmorland b: Abt. 1364
d: 21 Oct 1425 ref #: W45-7
+Margaret de Stafford b: Bef. 1364 d: 9 Jun 1396 ref #: F203:10
2 Sir John Neville aka: Lord Neville b: Abt. 1387 d: 1420 ref #:
BxP:393
+Elizabeth de Holand d: Abt. 1423 ref #: BxP:279
2 Sir Ralph Neville b: Abt. 1392 d: 26 Feb 1457/58 ref #: F204:9
+Mary de Ferrers aka: Margery de Ferrers b: Abt. 1394 d: 25 Jan
1457/58 ref #: F15:11iva
2 [1] Alice Neville ref #: F203:10ii
+Sir Thomas Gray b: 30 Nov 1384 d: 2 Aug 1415 ref #: F117:9
*2nd Husband of [1] Alice Neville:
+Sir Gilbert de Lancaster
2 [2] Margaret Neville d: 1464 ref #: F249:7
+Sir Richard le Scrope aka: 3d Lord Scrope of Bolton b: 31 May 1394
d: 29 Aug 1420 ref #: W149A-9
*2nd Husband of [2] Margaret Neville:
+William Cressener
2 Matilda Neville aka: Maud Neville d: 1438 ref #: BxP:394
+Sir Piers de Mauley aka: 4th Baron Mauley d: 1415 ref #: BxP:362
2 Philippe Neville d: Aft. 1452 ref #: F76:8
+Sir Thomas de Dacre b: 27 Oct 1387 d: 5 Jan 1457/58 ref #: BxP:149
*2nd Wife of [3] Ralph de Neville:
+Joan Beaufort b: Abt. 1379 d: 13 Nov 1440 ref #: F15:11iv
2 [4] Katherine Neville aka: Dowager Duchess of Norfolk b: Abt. 1397
d: Aft. Jan 1477/78 ref #: BxP:394
+Sir John de Mowbray aka: 8th Baron Mowbray b: 1398 d: 1432 ref #:
BxP:388
*2nd Husband of [4] Katherine Neville:
+Thomas Strangeways
*3rd Husband of [4] Katherine Neville:
+John Beaumont d: 1460
*4th Husband of [4] Katherine Neville:
+Sir John Wydeville b: Abt. 1445 d: 12 Aug 1469 ref #: BxP:584
2 Joan Neville b: Abt. 1398
2 Sir Richard Neville aka: Earl of Salisbury b: Abt. 1400 d: 30 Dec
1460 ref #: F15:11ivb
+Alice Montacute b: Abt. 1408 d: Bef. 9 Dec 1462 ref #: F193:8
2 Henry Neville b: Abt. 1402
2 Thomas Neville b: Abt. 1403
+Alice Seymour
2 Cuthbert Neville b: Abt. 1405
2 [5] Alainor Neville b: Abt. 1407 d: 1472 ref #: F15:11ivf
+Richard le Despencer b: 1396 d: 1414 ref #: BxP:167
*2nd Husband of [5] Alainor Neville:
+Sir Henry Percy aka: 2d Earl of Northumberland b: 3 Feb 1392/93 d:
22 May 1455 ref #: F149:9
2 Robert Neville b: Abt. 1408 d: 1457
2 Sir William Neville aka: Earl of Kent b: Abt. 1409 d: 9 Jan 1462/63
ref #: F15:11ivc
+Joan de Fauconberg b: 18 Oct 1406 d: 11 Dec 1490 ref #: BxP:397
2 [6] Anne Neville b: Abt. 1411 d: 20 Sep 1480 ref #: F15:11ivg
+Sir Humphrey Stafford aka: 6th Earl of Stafford / 1st Duke of
Buckingham b: 15 Aug 1402 d: 10 Jul 1460 ref #: F7:9
*2nd Husband of [6] Anne Neville:
+Sir Walter Blount aka: 1st Baron Mountjoy b: Abt. 1420 d: 1474 ref
#: BxP:55
2 John Neville b: Abt. 1413
2 Sir George Neville aka: 1st Lord Latimer b: Abt. 1414 d: 30 Dec
1469 ref #: F15:11ivd
+Elizabeth de Beauchamp b: 1417 d: Bef. 1480 ref #: F14:8
2 Cecily Neville b: 3 May 1415 d: 31 May 1495 ref #: F15:11ivh
+Sir Richard Plantagenet aka: 3d Duke of York b: 21 Sep 1411 d: 30
Dec 1460 ref #: F292:7
2 [7] Sir Edward Neville aka: Baron Bergavenny b: Abt. 1417 d: 18 Oct
1476 ref #: F15:11ive
+Elizabeth Beauchamp b: 16 Sep 1415 d: 18 Jun 1448 ref #: F211:6
*2nd Wife of [7] Edward Neville:
+Katherine Howard b: Abt. 1414 d: Aft. 1478 ref #: F197:8ii
Second, you're mixing John de Mowbrays:
Descendants of John de Mowbray
1 Sir John de Mowbray aka: 4th Baron Mowbray b: 25 Jun 1340 d: 9 Oct
1368 ref #: F196:10
+Elizabeth de Segrave b: 25 Oct 1338 d: 1376 ref #: F205:11i
2 Sir John de Mowbray aka: 5th Baron Mowbray d: 1382 ref #: BxP:387
2 Sir Thomas de Mowbray aka: 6th Lord Mowbray b: 22 Mar 1365/66 d: 22
Sep 1399 ref #: F197:9
+Elizabeth FitzAlan b: 1375 d: 8 Jul 1425 ref #: F106:11
3 Sir John de Mowbray aka: 8th Baron Mowbray b: 1398 d: 1432 ref #:
BxP:388
+Katherine Neville aka: Dowager Duchess of Norfolk b: Abt. 1397 d:
Aft. Jan 1477/78 ref #: BxP:394
2 [3] Joan de Mowbray aka: Jane de Mowbray d: Aft. 30 Nov 1402 ref
#: F116:10
+Sir Thomas Gray b: Abt. 1359 d: Abt. 30 Nov 1400 ref #: (Ä223-34)
3 Sir Thomas Gray b: 30 Nov 1384 d: 2 Aug 1415 ref #: F117:9
+Alice Neville ref #: F203:10ii
More in next message.
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