More descent from Isabel de Vermandois

[lostcopper]

Apologies in advance for the length; it is as skeletal as I could
manage & incomplete as well.
Isabel de Vermandois - William de Warenne
1
William de Warenne - Ela de Ponthieu
Isabel & Hamelin bastard d'Anjou
William de Warenne & Maud Marshal
also Maud de Warenne & Henry II, Ct. of Eu
also Suzanne de Warenne & King John (unm)
Sir John de Warenne - Alix de Lusignan
Eleanor de Warenne & Henry Percy
Henry Percy & Eleanor FitzAlan
Henry Percy & Mary of Lancaster
also Alianore Percy & John FitzWalter
Henry Percy & Margaret Neville
Henry Percy & Elizabeth Mortimer
Henry Percy & Eleanor Neville
Henry Percy & Eleanor Poynings
Henry Percy & Maud Herbert
Eleanor Percy & Edward Stafford
Elizabeth Stafford & Thomas Howard
Henry Howard & Frances de Vere
Katherine Howard & Henry Berkeley
Mary Berkeley & John la Zouche
Elizabeth la Zouche & Gerald FitzGerald
Katherine FitzGerald & Jenico Preston
Katherine Preston & Thomas Fleming
Katherine Fleming & Piers FitzThomas Butler
Sir Edmund Butler & Anne Butler
Piers Butler & Margaret Netterville
Edmond Butler & Catherine Crispe
Piers Butler & Domville Hartpole
Edmond Butler & Anne Skellern
Bridget Butler & Theobald Butler
William Butler & Caroline Massy
Caroline Butler & Hugh Massey Barrett
Joseph Barrett & Henrietta Rudyard Clark MacInnes
Mary Elizabeth Barrett & Maurice Emile Newman
Claire Newman & Sydney Valdes Webb
Elizabeth Clare Webb, my mother
2
Reginald de Warenne & Adeliza de Wormegay
William de Warenne & Beatrix de Pierrepont
Beatrix de Warenne & Doun Bardolf
William Bardolf & Nichole
William Bardolf & Julian de Gournai
Hugh Bardolf & Isabel Aguillon
Thomas Bardolf & Agnes Grandison
Margaret Bardolf & Adam de Welles
John de Welles & Maud de Ros
John de Welles & Eleanor de Mowbray
also Anne de Welles & James Butler
Ives de Welles & Maud de Greystoke
William de Welles & Anne Barnewall
Elizabeth de Welles & James Fleming
George Fleming & Margaret Butler
James Fleming & Ismay Dillon
Thomas Fleming & Catherine Preston
also Ellen/Helen de Welles & Walter Cheevers
see line 1
3
Ada de Warenne & Henry of Huntingdon
William the Lion & Ermengarde de Beaumont
also at least concubine
Alexander II & concubine
also Isabelle, bastard dau
also Ada, bastard dau
Marjory of Scots & Alan Durward
Anne Durward & William Ferrers
William Ferrers & Ellen/Alice Segrave
Hernry Ferrers & isabel de Verdun
also Anne Ferrers & Edward le Despenser
William Ferrers & Margaret de Ufford
Margaret Ferrers & Thomas Beauchamp
Richard Beauchamp & Elizabeth Berkeley
Eleanor Beauchamp & Edmund Beaufort
Margaret Beaufort & Humphrey Stafford
Henry Stafford & Katherne Wydeville
Edward Stafford & Eleanor Percy
see 2
4
Gundred de Warenne & Roger de Beaumont (husb. 1)
Waleran de Beaumont & Alice Harcourt
Alice de Beaumont & William Mauduit
Isabel Mauduit & William Beauchamp
William Beauchamp & Maud FitzJohn
also Sarah Beauchamp & Richard Talbot
also Walter Beauchamp & Alice de Toeni
Guy Beauchamp & Alice de Toeni
also Isabel Beauchamp & (1) Patrick Chaworth;
(2) Hugh le Despenser
Thomas Beauchamp & Katherine Mortimer
also Lucia Beauchamp & Robert/Roger Napton
Thomas Beauchamp & Margaret Ferrers
also Philippe Beauchamp & Hugh Stafford
also Maud Beauchamp & Roger Clifford
see 1
Gundred de Warenne again & William Lancaster-Kendal,
husb. 2
William Lancaster-Kendal & Hawise de Stuteville
also Avice Lancaster & Richard de Morville
also Warin Lancaster & nn
Hawise Lancaster & Gilbert FitzRoger
Avice Lancaster & William Lindsay
also Hawise (same?) & Piers II Bruce
William Lindsay & nn
nn Lindsay of Craigie & William Mure
Adam Mure & Janet Mure of Fokeltie
Reginald Mure & Sibylla Graham
also Elizabeth Mure & Robert II, King of Scots
Gilchrist Mure & Isabel Cumin
John Mure & nn of Caldwell
John Mure & nn
John Mure & Elizabeth
Marion Mure & John Ross
Elizabeth Ross & Thomas Sempill
John Sempill & Margaret Colville
William Sempill & Margaret Montgomerie
Robert Sempill & Isabel Hamilton
also a mistress, Elizabeth Carlyle
Gilles Sempill & Archibald Preston
James Preston & Jean/Janet Erskine
John Preston & Grizel Colville
Mary Preston & George Bruce
Christian Bruce & Robert Colville
James Colville & nn
Mary Colville & Duncan Campbell
Archibald Campbell & Joan Campbell
Susanna Campbell & James Menzies
Susanna Menzies & Robert Campbell
Colin Campbell & Agnes Campbell
William Campbell & Eufemia McNicoll
Christian Campbell & Duncan McPherson
Christian McPherson & John Martin
Robert Martin & Philippine Bodecker
Christian Campbell Martin & George G.B. Fischer
Christine Fischer & William Locock Webb
Sydney Valdes Webb & Claire Newman
Elizabeth Clare Webb, my mother
5
Maud de Warenne & Henry II d'Eu
Alice d'Eu & Raoul I de Lusignan
Maud de Lusignan & Humphrey de Bohun
Humphrey de Bohun & Eleanor de Braose
also Alice de Bohun & Rover V de Toeni
also Eleanor de Bohun & John de Verdun
Humphrey de Bohun & Maud de Fiennes
also Eleanor de Bohun & Robert Ferrers
also Margery de Bohun & Theobald de Verdun
Humphrey de Bohun & Elizabeth Plantagenet
William de Bohun & Elizabeth Badlesmere
also Eleanor de Bohun & James Butler
also Margaret de Bohun & Hugh de Courtenay
Humphrey de Bohun & Joan FitzAlan
also Elizabeth de Bohun & Richard FitzAlan
Eleanor de Bohun & Thomas of Woodstock
Anne of Gloucester & Edmund Stafford
Humphrey Stafford & Anne Neville
Humphrey Stafford & Margaret Beaufort
see line 3
6
Suzanne de Warenne & King John
Richard FitzRoy & Rohese de Dover
Isabel de Craon & Maurice Berkeley
also Lora de Dover & Willliam Marmion
Thomas Berkeley & Joan Ferrers
Maurice Berkeley & Eva la Zouche
also Margaret Berkeley & Thomas FitzGerald
Thomas Berkeley & Margaret Mortimer
also Milicent/Eva Berkeley & Thomas Maltravers
also Isabel Berkeley & Robert Clifford
Maurice Berkeley & Elizabeth le Despenser
James Berkeley & Elizabeth Bluet
also Thomas Berkeley & Margaret de Lisle
James Berkeley & Isabel Mowbray
Maurice Berkeley & Isabel Meade
Thomas Berkeley & Eleanor Constable
Thomas Berkeley & Ann Savage
Henry Berkeley & Katherine Howard
Mary Berkeley & John la Zouche
see line 1
7
Isabella, bastard dau of William the Lion & Robert de Ros
William de Ros & Lucy FitzHerbert
Robert de Ros & Isabel Daubeney
also William de Ros & Eustache FitzHugh
William de Ros & Maud de Vaux
William de Ros & Margery Badlesmere
Thomas de Ros & Beatrice Stafford
also Maud de Ros & John de Welles
also Elizabeth de Ros & William la Zouche
William de Ros & Margaret FitzAlan
Margaret de Ros & James Touchet
Anne Touchet & Thomas Dutton
Elizabeth Dutton & John Bostock
Anne Bostock & John Savage
Anne Savage & Thomas Berkeley
see line 1
8
Ada bastard dau. of William the Lion & Patrick Dunbar
Patrick Dunbar & Euphemia de Brus
also Ada Dunbar & William Dunbar of Home
Patrick Dunbar & Cecily Fraser FitzJohn
also Isabel Dunbar & Roger FitzJohn
Patrick Dunbar & Marjory Comyn
Alexander Dunbar & nn
Patrick Dunbar & Isabel Randolph
John Dunbar & Marjorie Stewart
also Agnes Dunbar & James Douglas
also Elizabeth Dunbar & John Letherington Maitland
Janet Dunbar & William Seton
Catherine Seton & Alan Stewart
John Stewart & Margaret Montgomerie
Matthew Stewart & Elizabeth Hamilton
also Elizabeth Stewart & Archibald Campbell
Elizabeth Stewart & George Campbell
George Campbell & nn Kennedy
Isabella Campbell & Robert Erskine
John Erskine & Margaret Campbell
also Elizabeth Erskine & James Forrester
also James Erskine & Christine Stirling
Margaret Erskine & Robert Douglas
Janet Douglas & James Colville
James Colville & Isabel Ruthven
Robert Colville & Christian Bruce
James Colville & nn
Mary Colville & Duncan Campbell
see line 4

Obviously titles etc were left out in order to get this much on here.
These are only a few of the lines. If anyone has corrections or
questions, fire away. You too, Will. Best, Bronwen

[Wjhonson]

This is flawed.
Jenico Preston, 3rd Lord Gormanston died in 1560
His wife Catherine FitzGerald was the daughter of Gerald FitzGerald 9th Earl of Kildare, by his wife Elizabeth Zouche
Elizabeth's parents were John Zouche of Codnor, co Derby who died in 1501 by his wife Eleanor St John who died 12 Feb 1518/9

Meanwhile your below Katherine Howard, wife of Henry 7th Lord Berkeley, she, was "aged 16" in 1554



You wrote: "Katherine Howard & Henry Berkeley

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[lostcopper]

On Oct 30, 4:42 pm, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
>  This is flawed.
> Jenico Preston, 3rd Lord Gormanston died in 1560
> His wife Catherine FitzGerald was the daughter of Gerald FitzGerald 9th Earl of Kildare, by his wife Elizabeth Zouche
> Elizabeth's parents were John Zouche of Codnor, co Derby who died in 1501 by his wife Eleanor St John who died 12 Feb 1518/9

I'm not seeing your point, Will. Jenico Preston, 3rd Viscount
Gormanston died 1560, as you said. I have no dates for Catherine, but
her father, Gerald Oge FitzGerald, 9th Earl of Kildare, was born 1487
& died in the Tower of London 13 Dec 1534. His wife, Elizabeth la
Zouche, died 6 Oct 1517. Stay tuned while I scratch around my desk for
notes as to where I found a younger Sir John la Zouche of Codnor &
Mary Berkeley as his wife; I show him as the son of your Sir John &
Eleanor St. John.

>
> Meanwhile your below Katherine Howard, wife of Henry 7th Lord Berkeley, she, was "aged 16" in 1554

Are you suggesting that the Berkeley-Howard marriage did not occur? Or
that it did not occur in 1554? In any case, thank you for the
feedback.

[Wjhonson]

The generations could not stand in this relationship with each other, That's what I'm stating.
>From the top of this list of four to the bottom, there is no possibility they can flow smoothly in this order.
You have to assign proximate dates to each generation and see for yourself, that something is wrong.

-----Original Message-----
From: lostcopper <lostc...@yahoo.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>

[lostcopper]

I'm back - my source was Leo citing Gary Boyd on Genealogics.
Where is the flaw? Still not seeing it. - Bronwen

[Wjhonson]

-----Original Message-----
From: Wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com>
To: lostcooper <lostc...@yahoo.com>; gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sun, Oct 30, 2011 6:51 pm
Subject: Re: More descent from Isabel de Vermandois



The generations could not stand in this relationship with each other, That's
what I'm stating.
>From the top of this list of four to the bottom, there is no possibility they
can flow smoothly in this order.
You have to assign proximate dates to each generation and see for yourself, that
something is wrong.

-----Original Message-----
From: lostcopper <lostc...@yahoo.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>

Sent: Sun, Oct 30, 2011 6:45 pm

[lostcopper]

I was looking at the other posters with their lines and noticed how
many used descent from Robert de Beaumont & Isabel de Vermandois. For
some reason I had not made the connection between the "two" Isabels.
Now that I realize that is the same person, a whole new universe
opens. From that couple I have descents from Robert de Beaumont, 2nd
Earl of Leicester, & Amice de Gael; Waleran IV de Beaumont, 1st Earl
of Worcester & Agnes de Montfort; Isabel de Beaumont & Gilbert de
Clare, 1st Earl of Pembroke; Eleanor de Beaumont & Hamon II, Baron of
Dunham-Massey; & Adeline de Beaumont & Hugh de Gant-Montfort.
I will sort it out & post it anon. - Bronwen

[lostcopper]

On Oct 30, 7:17 pm, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:

> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com

>
> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
> the message
>
> -------------------------------

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You're right about the dates if you do not include the younger Sir
John la Zouche & Mary Berkeley. But if you do include them, the dates
are fine.

[Wjhonson]

No Bronwen the dates are not fine, for the reasons I already stated.
I told you exactly how to see why, but you refuse to do what I said.
So continue to carry this false line in your database if you wish.

[J Cook]

I think you are trying to say:

Gen 1. Katherine Howard (born c.1538) & Henry Berkeley
Gen 2. Mary Berkeley (then born at earliest: 1558) & John la Zouche
Gen 3. Elizabeth la Zouche (then born at earliest: 1578) & Gerald
FitzGerald
Gen 4. Katherine FitzGerald (then born at earliest: 1598) & Jenico
Preston (born before 1539)
Gen 5.Katherine Preston & Thomas Fleming

Gen 3 Elizabeth was born no earlier than 1578. However, Elizabeth's
father died in 1501, so she must have been born before that. She
can't have been born After 1578 _and_ before 1501.

Did I transcribe that argument right?

[Wjhonson]

You can stop at 4 because Elizabeth (Preston) Nugent had to be born by 1530 to have a son born "about 1544"
At any rate, her husband the 13th Lord Delvin died in 1559.

-----Original Message-----
From: J Cook <joe...@gmail.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sun, Oct 30, 2011 8:10 pm
Subject: Re: More descent from Isabel de Vermandois

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[lostcopper]

> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com

> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
> the message

Okay, I will remove Mary Berkeley & John la Zouche.
Removing them from my line 1, along with the FitzWalters, there are
still two descents from William de Warenne & Ela de Ponthieu: Maud de
Warenne & Henry d'Eu (line 5) & an amended line from Suzanne de
Warenne & King John as follows:

Suzanne de Warenne & King John
Richard FitzRoy & Rohese de Dover
Isabel de Craon & Maurice Berkeley

also Lora de Dover & William Marmion

Thomas Berkeley & Joan Ferrers

Margaret Berkeley & Thomas FitzGerald

Maurice FitzGerald & Eleanor/Aveline FitzGerald of Kerry
Gerald FitzGerald & Eleanor Butler
James FitzGerald & Mary/Annabella Burke
Also Ellice FitzGerald & John Barry
Joan FitzGerald of Desmond & Thomas FitzGerald of Kildare
Geroit Mor FitzGerald & Allison Eustace
Gerald Oge FitzGerald & Elizabeth la Zouche
also Margaret FitzGerald & Piers Butler
Catherine FitzGerald & Jenico Preston
see line 1

I think I got the Mary Berkeley-John la Zouche out of the pertinent
lines.
Thank you. - Bronwen

[Douglas Richardson]

On Oct 31, 2:33 am, lostcopper <lostcoo...@yahoo.com> wrote:

<Suzanne de Warenne & King John
<Richard FitzRoy & Rohese de Dover

Bronwen ~

Thank you for your good posts. Much appreciated.

I have some comments to make about Richard Fitz Roy above.

The mother of King John’s illegitimate son, Richard Fitz Roy, is
identified by the 13th Century chronicler, Robert of Gloucester, as
the “erles doughter of wareine” [that is, the daughter of the Earl of
Warenne]. Contemporary records lend support for this parentage, as
Richard Fitz Roy was styled as an adult as “Richard de Warenne” [see,
for example, Curia Regis Rolls 16 (1979): 232 (“Ricardus de Warenn’
filius regis Johannis”), 450 (“Ricardus de Warein”); Rotuli Litterarum
Clausarum 2 (1844): 523]. Richard Fitz Roy also used the surname
Warenne on his personal seal [see Birch, Cat. Seals in the British
Museum 3 (1894): 640]. Richard Fitz Roy’s maternal grandfather,
Hamelin, Earl of Warenne, had three known daughters, Maud, Ela, and
Isabel, conceivably any one of whom could have been Richard’s mother.
Richard Fitz Roy, however, occurs in two contemporary records listed
side by side Isabel’s 2nd husband, Gilbert de l’Aigle [see C.P.R. 1216–
1225 (1901), page 70; C.P.R. 1225–1232 (1903): 357-362 ]. Richard
also had a daughter named Isabel, but none named Maud or Ela. These
pieces of evidence may be considered a good indication but not
conclusive evidence that Richard Fitz Roy was the son of Isabel de
Warenne.

As for Suzanne de Warenne, she is fictitious.

[Wjhonson]

I would be interested in seeing comments on this supposed FitzGerald extension, a bit later in the descent, which I've never seen before today.

-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Richardson <royala...@msn.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Mon, Oct 31, 2011 11:45 am
Subject: Re: More descent from Isabel de Vermandois

On Oct 31, 2:33 am, lostcopper <lostcoo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
<Suzanne de Warenne & King John
Richard FitzRoy & Rohese de Dover
Bronwen ~
Thank you for your good posts. Much appreciated.
I have some comments to make about Richard Fitz Roy above.
The mother of King John’s illegitimate son, Richard Fitz Roy, is

dentified by the 13th Century chronicler, Robert of Gloucester, as

he “erles doughter of wareine” [that is, the daughter of the Earl of

arenne]. Contemporary records lend support for this parentage, as

ichard Fitz Roy was styled as an adult as “Richard de Warenne” [see,

or example, Curia Regis Rolls 16 (1979): 232 (“Ricardus de Warenn’

ilius regis Johannis”), 450 (“Ricardus de Warein”); Rotuli Litterarum

lausarum 2 (1844): 523]. Richard Fitz Roy also used the surname

arenne on his personal seal [see Birch, Cat. Seals in the British

useum 3 (1894): 640]. Richard Fitz Roy’s maternal grandfather,

amelin, Earl of Warenne, had three known daughters, Maud, Ela, and

sabel, conceivably any one of whom could have been Richard’s mother.

ichard Fitz Roy, however, occurs in two contemporary records listed

ide by side Isabel’s 2nd husband, Gilbert de l’Aigle [see C.P.R. 1216–

225 (1901), page 70; C.P.R. 1225–1232 (1903): 357-362 ]. Richard

lso had a daughter named Isabel, but none named Maud or Ela. These

ieces of evidence may be considered a good indication but not

onclusive evidence that Richard Fitz Roy was the son of Isabel de

arenne.
As for Suzanne de Warenne, she is fictitious.

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[lostcopper]

Thank you for the correction. I will make a note of the change & take
out Suzanne.
I wonder who came up with that name for a daughter in that line. Best,
Bronwen

[lostcopper]

On Oct 31, 11:47 am, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> I would be interested in seeing comments on this supposed FitzGerald extension, a bit later in the descent, which I've never seen before today.
>

I'm not sure which FitzGerald extension you mean. Is the question for
me or for Doug? - Bronwen

[Wjhonson]

IIRC you have three or four FitzGeralds in a row that looked suspicious to me.

-----Original Message-----
From: lostcopper <lostc...@yahoo.com>

To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:14 pm
Subject: Re: More descent from Isabel de Vermandois

On Oct 31, 11:47 am, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
I would be interested in seeing comments on this supposed FitzGerald

xtension, a bit later in the descent, which I've never seen before today.

I'm not sure which FitzGerald extension you mean. Is the question for

e or for Doug? - Bronwen

[lostcopper]

On Oct 31, 12:44 pm, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> IIRC you have three or four FitzGeralds in a row that looked suspicious to me.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lostcopper <lostcoo...@yahoo.com>
> To: gen-medieval <gen-medie...@rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:14 pm
> Subject: Re: More descent from Isabel de Vermandois
>
> On Oct 31, 11:47 am, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
>  I would be interested in seeing comments on this supposed FitzGerald
> xtension, a bit later in the descent, which I've never seen before today.
>
> I'm not sure which FitzGerald extension you mean. Is the question for
> e or for Doug? - Bronwen
>
> ------------------------------

> o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com

> ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
> he message

I think you are referring to:
Thomas "an apa" FitzGerald, 1261-1298 & Margaret Berkeley
Maurice FitzGerald, 1st Earl of Desmond, 1293-1356, & Eleanor/Aveline
FitzGerald, dau. of Nicholas FitzGerald, 3nd Lord of Kerry & Lixnaw,
d. 1317, & Slany O'Brien
Gerald FitzGerald "Iarla", 3rd Earl of Desmond, d.1398 (my choice for
Halloween: his ghost rises from Loch Gur every 7 years), & Eleanor
Butler of Ormond, d.1392
James FitzGerald, 6th Earl of Desmond, d.1463, & Mary/Annabella Burke
of Clanricarde, d.1435
Also Ellice FitzGerald & John Barry, 7th Lord Barrymore, d.1420
Joan FitzGerald, d.1486 & Thomas FitzGerald, 7th Earl of Kildare, d.
1477
Also Thomas FitzGerald, 7th Earl of Desmond, 1410-1468, & Alice
Barry (see below)
Geroit Mor FitzGerald, 8th Earl of Kildare, 1457-1513, & Allison
Eustace, d.1495
Gerald FitzGerald Oge, 9th Earl of Kildare, 1487-1534, & Elizabeth la
Zouche, d.1517
Also Margaret FitzGerald, 1470-1542, & Piers Butler "the Red", 8th
Earl of Ormond, 1467-1539
Catherine FitzGerald of Kildare & Jenico Preston, 3rd Viscount
Gormanston, 1502-1560
From here we have already discussed them
Picking up the indented people above:

Ellice FitzGerald of Desmond & John Barry, 7th Lord Barrymore, d.1420
William Barry, 8th Lord Barrymore, d.1480, & Ellen Roche of Fermoy
Alice Barry & Thomas FitzGerald, 7th Earl of Desmond, 1410-1468
Maurice FitzGerald, 9th Earl of Desmond, d.1520, & Ellen Roche
Also James FitzGerald, 8th Earl of Desmond, 1448-1487, & Margaret
O'Brien
James FitzGerald, 10th Earl of Desmond, d.1529, & Amy O'Brien, d.1537
Joan FitzGerald of Desmond, d.1565, & James Butler, 9th Earl of
Ormond, d.1546
Thomas Dubh Butler, 10th Earl of Ormond, 1531-1614, & nn (but great
rumors)
from here the descent has already been mentioned

Margaret FitzGerald of Kildare, d.1542, & Piers Butler the Red, 8th
Earl of Ormond, 1467-1539
from this couple I have descents from two sons & three daughters:

Ellen Butler of Ormond, 1521-1597 & Donnchad O'Brien, 2nd Earl of
Thomond, d.1533
Conor O'Brien, 3rd Earl of Thomond, 1535-1581 & Una/Wonafrit O'Brien
of Arra, d.1589
Margaret O'Brien, 1568-1636, & James Butler, 12th Lord Dunboyne,
1547-1624
Theobald Butler of Priestown, 1610-1652, & Margaret Blake of Galway
James Butler of Killoskehan, 1648-1714, & Margaret Burke
James Butler, 1684-1740, & Marjory Dalton
Richard Butler of Drom, 1710-1773, & Margaret O'Brien
Theobald "Big Toby" Butler of Drom, Knockra & Wilford, d.1795, &
Bridget Butler, d. aft.1774
William Butler, Esq. of Drom, d.1812, & Caroline Massy of
Duntrileague, d.1837
Caroline Butler, 1794-1874, & Hugh Massey Barrett, 1791-1868 (first
cousins through Caroline Massy's sister, Amy; emigrated to Canada
1830)
Joseph Barrett, 1824-1904, & Henrietta Rudyard Clark Macinnes,
1832-1915 (emig. with parents, he in 1830, she c.1840 via Carriacou;
went to Calif. Gold Rush, settled in Mariposa County by 1854)
Mary Elizabeth Barrett, 1859-1945, & Maurice Emile Newman, 1860-1903
(moved to San Francisco)
Claire Newman, 1887-1960, & Sydney Valdes Webb, 1876-1958 (b. in
London, emig. to Calif. 1906)
Elizabeth Clare Webb, 1912-2005, my mother

James FitzGerald, 8th Earl of Dersmond, 1448-1487, & Margaret O'Brien
Joan FitzGerald & Maurice Roche, 2nd Lord of Fermoy, d.1489
Ellen Roche & Maurice FitzGerald, 9th Earl of Desmond, d.1520
see above

Is it a gift or a curse to have the Butlers & the Geraldines in the
same pedigree?

Did I untangle the FitzGeralds for you? Best, Bronwen

[Wjhonson]

He didn't die in 1398, he disappeared.

-----Original Message-----
From: lostcopper <lostc...@yahoo.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>

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[Peter Stewart]

On 1/11/2011 5:39 AM, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> On Oct 31, 2:33 am, lostcopper<lostcoo...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> <Suzanne de Warenne& King John

> <Richard FitzRoy& Rohese de Dover

You are suggesting that King John had an illegitimate son by a daughter
of his own father's half-brother, that this bastard from incest later
adopted the surname of his mother's mother's proud family, and that
no-one thought such scandalous doings in the royal family to be worth
recording?

Or was there an albino monk involved in the cover-up, by any chance?

The maternal grandmother of Richard fitz Roy's daughter was named
Isabel, so this is hardly strong evidence that her paternal grandmother
was too.

Peter Stewart

[Douglas Richardson]

On Nov 1, 12:36 am, Peter Stewart <pss...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

> You are suggesting that King John had an illegitimate son by a daughter
> of his own father's half-brother, that this bastard from incest later
> adopted the surname of his mother's mother's proud family, and that
> no-one thought such scandalous doings in the royal family to be worth
> recording?

Am I suggesting that King John was a sexual predator?

Um ... is the sky blue, Peter?

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

[Peter Stewart]

On 2/11/2011 1:39 AM, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> On Nov 1, 12:36 am, Peter Stewart<pss...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>
>> You are suggesting that King John had an illegitimate son by a daughter
>> of his own father's half-brother, that this bastard from incest later
>> adopted the surname of his mother's mother's proud family, and that
>> no-one thought such scandalous doings in the royal family to be worth
>> recording?
>
> Am I suggesting that King John was a sexual predator?
>
> Um ... is the sky blue, Peter?

Um ... re you trying to counter my point or endorse it?

How is it that you can consider John was a "sexual predator"? Because
sources tell of his transgressions, of course. So why would they be so
eerily silent on the biggest whopper of all?

Peter Stewart

[lostcopper]

On Oct 31, 8:32 pm, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
>  He didn't die in 1398, he disappeared.
>
>
>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: lostcopper <lostcoo...@yahoo.com>
> To: gen-medieval <gen-medie...@rootsweb.com>

> Sent: Mon, Oct 31, 2011 1:31 pm
> Subject: Re: More descent from Isabel de Vermandois
>

> On Oct 31, 12:44 pm, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:

> > IIRC you have three or four FitzGeralds in a row that looked suspicious to me.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: lostcopper <lostcoo...@yahoo.com>
> > To: gen-medieval <gen-medie...@rootsweb.com>
> > Sent: Mon, Oct 31, 2011 12:14 pm
> > Subject: Re: More descent from Isabel de Vermandois
>
> > On Oct 31, 11:47 am, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> >  I would be interested in seeing comments on this supposed FitzGerald
> > xtension, a bit later in the descent, which I've never seen before today.
>
> > I'm not sure which FitzGerald extension you mean. Is the question for
> > e or for Doug? - Bronwen
>
> > ------------------------------

> > o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com

> > ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
> > he message
>

> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEVAL-requ...@rootsweb.com
> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
> the message

Actually, he drowned in Lough Gur. Which is why his ghost rises from
the lake every 7 years.

[Wjhonson]

No he did not drown there.
His body was never found, they have no idea where he went, he just went.

-----Original Message-----
From: lostcopper <lostc...@yahoo.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>

To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com