Re: GEN-MEDIEVAL-D Digest V05 #123 Blanchminsters
Millerf...@aol.com
Blanchminster line, which might be worth examining, as follows:-
1. Sir Ranulph Blanchminster, living 1265
+Lucy, d and h of Peter Toret
2. Sir Reginald Blanchminster
+unknown
3. Sir Ranulph Blanchminster (d. 1348: his Will is preserved)
+ Alice ?
4. Alice Blanchminster (?sole d and h)
+ Sir Richard Hiwis
5. Emma Hiwis (?sole d and h)
+ Sir John Coleshull
6. Sir John Coleshull II (1391-1418: there is an IPM
for him)
+ Anna ?
7. Joan Coleshull (d. 20 Dec 1497: there is an IPM)
+ (1) Sir Renfrey Arundel of Lanhearne, d.1434
8. Renfrey Arundel
8. John Arundel, Bishop of Coventry and
(1502) Exeter
8. Elizabeth
+ (1) William Whittington of Pauntley
d. 1470
+ (2) Nicholas Brome of Baddesley
Clinton (in 1473)
+ (2) John Nanfan
A document dated 13 Sept 1421, evidencing Joan Coleshull's first marriage to
Renfrey Arundel, is in the Cornwall Record Office at reference AR/19/21.
The marriage settlement of Nicholas Brome and Elizabeth Whittington nee
Arundel, dated 20 Dec 1473, is in the Shakespeare's Birthplace Record Office at
DR/3/264. Their daughter Constance married Edward Ferrers, son and heir of Sir
Henry Ferrers, before March 1498.
There is a promising file in the Cornwall Record office "Notes and papers on
history of the Blanchminster family and estates" - reference P216/25/334, said
to go back to the 13th century. The estates appear to have included the
lordship of the Isles of Scilly (held in chief by an annual rent of puffins!),
which descended to the Coleshulls, and also a castle at Stratton near Bude, where
Sir Ralph endowed an aisle for the church by his Will.
MM
Louise Staley
Thanks for posting this. I also have that line, plus a bit more, which
I've reproduced below. I have sources of varying quality for all of this,
the Arundell and later generations are well attested.
It appears Alice Blancminster, who married Sir Richard Hewis may have had
a sister, Cecilia, who married Thomas Neville of Fencotes. This is based
on a later law suit over Stratton and various other Blancminster lands in
1486.
From the IPM of Joan Houghton 13 Henry VII
"In trinity term 1 Hen.VII [1486] a fine was levied between Robert
Throgmerton and Edward Bartlet, plaintiffs, and William Houghton kt., and
Joan his wife deforciants of the manors of Byenamye, Stratton, Swancote,
St Mary Wke, St. Cler Colshill, Leskerdcolshill and Wykenurg with lands
[details given] and 20s. rent there and in Tremyeth and the advowson of
St. Mary Wyke which were by that fine settled on the said William and Joan
and her heirs with remainders to Thomas Nevell kinsman and heirs of
William Nevell of Pykell, chr. and. the right heirs of Guy de
Blanchminster late rector of Lansalos."
In my notes, but unfortunately unsourced, I have that Thomas Neville of
Rolleston claimed a share in the Blancminster lands as the great-grandson
of Cecilia Blancminster.
Also there is more information on the Blancminsters in "The Story of
Stratton Church" by Frederick James Bone, (1919) William Brendan & Sons:
Plymouth. This book is held in the Cornwall library at Bude and Launceston
and also at the Devon and Exeter Institution Library in Exeter. I have not
seen more than a small excerpt of it.
What I don't have is any way to link the Blancminster family of William
Blancminster of Shropshire? (d bef 1260) and his possible wife, Eva
Fitzwarine, to the Blancminsters of Cornwall although it appears they were
connected as the parish history of Stratton Cornwall makes that link, as
does the Bone book noted above, although as I said, I haven't seen enough
of the Bone book to know if the exact relationships are given.
Descendants of Ralph Blancminster of Binamy Castle, Stratton, Isles of
Scilly etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1-Ralph Blancminster of Binamy Castle, Stratton, Isles of Scilly
etc. d. 23 Jun 1348, (Stratton, CON, ENG)
+Bertha 'The Fair Ladye of the Castle' Wife of Ralph
Blancminster
|-2-Alice Blancminster co-heiress
| +Sir Richard Hewis Knt., Lord of Chagford d. 1360
| |-3-Emma Hewis heiress of her brother William d. 14 Oct 1413
| | +Sir Robert Tresilian Chief Justice of the King's Bench d.
| | 19 Feb 1388, The Tower, LND, ENG
| | +Sir John Colshull Citizen & Vintner of London d. After
| | 1413, m. 30 Nov 1388, Frideystrete, LND, ENG
| | |-4-Sir John Colshull b. Abt 1392, d. 28 Oct 1415,
| | | Agincourt, , Lorraine, France
| | +Anne Challons
| | |-5-Joan Colshull heiress of her brother Sir John d. 20
| | | Dec 1497
| | | +Sir Renfrey Arundell of Treloy & Trefink d. 1434, m. 9
| | | Sep 1421, par. Sir John V 'the Magnificent' Arundell
| | | K.B., Lord of Lanherne and Annora Lambourne heiress of
| | | Lambourn, St Goran, Lansladron etc.
| | | |-6-Elizabeth Arundell of Treloy & Trefink d. After 1465
| | | | +Sir Edward Stradling b. Abt 1429, d. 1461, par. Sir
| | | | John Stradling and Joan Dauntsey heiress
| | | | |-7-Sir John Stradling of Dauntsey b. 1450, d. 1471,
| | | | | s.p.m.
| | | | +William Lygon d. After 1465, m. Bef 1465
| | | |-6-Renfrey Arundell of Treloy & Trefink d. 6 Jun 1468,
| | | | (London, ENG)
| | | | +Anne Ogard d. Bef 5 May 1521
| | | | |-7-Sir Edmund Arundell Lord of Egloshayle b. Bef 8
| | | | | Oct 1466, d. 27 Nov 1503, s.p.
| | | | |-7-Anne Arundell heiress of Treloy & Trefink b. Abt
| | | | | 1463, d. 25 Aug 1507, s.p.
| | | |-6-Elizabeth Arundell of Treloy & Trefink
| | | | +William Whittington Lord of Upton Haselow, WAR d. 8
| | | | Nov 1470, (London, ENG)
| | | | |-7-John Whittington co-heir of Anne Croker b. Abt
| | | | | 1464, d. 1 Jun 1525, (Pauntley, GLS, ENG)
| | | | +Nicholas Brome of Baddesley Clinton d. 10 Oct 1516,
| | | | s.p.m., m. After 20 Dec 1473
| | | | |-7-Isabel Brome
| | | | |-7-Constance Brome b. Abt 1485, d. 30 Sep 1551
| | | |-6-John Arundell Bishop of Exeter d. 15 Mar 1504, s.p.
| | | +Sir John Nanfan Knt. d. After 18 Jul 1457,
| | | (Birtsmorton, WOC, ENG), m. Bef 1449
| | | |-6-Isabel Nanfan heiress of her brother Richard
| | | | +Richard Bolles of Haugh, LIN
| | | | |-7-John Bolles d. Bef 21 Feb 1533, s.p.
| | | | |-7-Richard Bolles co-heir of Anne Croker b. Abt 1519,
| | | | | bur. 26 Jan 1549, Louth, LIN, ENG
| | | |-6-Sir Richard Nanfan d. Mar 1506, s.p.
| | | +Margaret Wife of Richard Nanfan d. Bef 8 Apr 1510,
| | | s.p.
| | | +Sir William Houghton Knt. d. 28 Feb 1508, s.p., m. Bef
| | | 1483
| | |-5-Sir John Colshull Knt., of Tremordet b. Abt 1417, d.
| | | 30 Mar 1484, s.p.
| | +Elizabeth Cheney co-heiress of Humphrey Stafford Earl
| | of Devon b. 2 Feb 1422, d. 1492, s.p., m. Bef 1439,
| | par. Sir Edmund Cheney and Alice Stafford
| |-3-John Hewis d. , s.p.
|-2-Cecilia Blancminster co-heiress
| +Thomas Neville d. 1365
| |-3-William Neville M.P., of Fencotes d. After 1420
| +Elizabeth Fencotes heiress d. After 1402, par. Sir Thomas
| Fencotes
| |-4-Robert Neville of Fencotes b. 1362, d. Between 1423 and
| | 1428
| | +Alice Wife of Robert Neville
| | |-5-Thomas Neville Lord of Rolleston b. Abt 1405, d. 1482
| | | +Elizabeth Babington b. Abt 1396, Chilwell, NTT, ENG,
| | | m. Abt 1417, par. Sir William Babington K.B., Chief
| | | Justice of the Common Pleas and Margery Martel heiress
| | | |-6-William Neville Lord of Rolleston d. 1510
| | | +Katharine Palmer co-heiress , m. 1474
| | | |-7-Thomas Neville of Holt d. Bef 14 Nov 1506
| | |-5-William Neville of South Leverton, NTT d. After 1467
| | +Joan Barker
| | |-6-George Neville of Ragnall, NTT b. Abt 1418
| | +Isabel Crofts
| | |-7-Robert Neville of Ragnell, NTT
| |-4-Isabel Neville of Fencotes
| +Sir Robert Woodford b. 1383, d. 22 Feb 1456, m. 1402
| |-5-Thomas Woodford of Ashby Folville, LEI d. , v.p.
| +Alice Berkeley , par. Lawrence Berkeley of Wymondham
| |-6-Ralph Woodford of Ashby Folville, LEI b. 1430, d. 4
| | Mar 1498, (Ashby Folville, LEI, ENG)
| +Elizabeth Villiers d. 9 Aug 1469, (Ashby Folville,
| LEI, ENG), m. Abt 1447, par. William Villiers of
| Brokesby and Joan Bellers
| |-7-Joan Woodford of Ashby Folville, LEI
|-2-Godwin Blancminster d. Bef 1348, v.p.
+
|-3-Sir John Blancminster b. Bef 1338, d. , s.p.
|-3-Guy Blancminster Rector of Lansalos d. After 1393, s.p.
Louise
Millerf...@aol.com
Thank you very much for the splendid detail given in your posting.
I have looked for the Shropshire Blanchminsters in the National Library of
Wales website, but found only one possibly helpful reference, to John
"Blaungmonstre" [!] as a witness to a deed dated circa 1300. There are numerous
references to people named de Albo Ministerio, but no William or John, Ralph or
Reginald, and no indication that we are looking at a single family.
The PRO yields the following:-
E210/227 Grant by Giles de Erdinton, to Robert le Estrange, of the manor of
Merbury, co Chester, with the land of Halehurst, co. Salop, which he had of the
grant of William de Albo Monasterio, for the yearly rent of a rose at
Midsummer ; in return for which Robert grants to Giles all his land in Rowelton and
Elwrthyn for 73s. yearly rent. Witnesses :- Sirs Roger de Clifford, Hamo
Lestrange (Extrango), John de Clinton, Odo de Hodenet, knights, and others (named) :
Chester Salop, St Peter ad Vincula 52 HIII (1268).
There is also a safe conduct for a servant of Sir Ralph B. in C81 (undated).
The a2a site contains references to 7 files mentioning people named "de Albo
Ministerio". The most interesting are:-
Shropshire Sandford of the Isle ref 465/2 (c 1256-60)
465/9 (c 1280)
<IMG SRC="http://www.a2a.org.uk/images/file.gif" WIDTH="32" HEIGHT="19" BORDER="0" DATASIZE="158">[from Scope and Content] Witnesses: Sir Ralph de Sontford,
Henry de Scavinton, Hugh de Stiele, Reginald Modi, Richard clerk of Mitneleg,
Nicholas de Hethe, William Chaplain of Whitchurch (Albi Monasterii)
Lancs Derby DDK/1400/4 refers to Sir John L'Estrange as being Lord of
Whitchurch 17th June 17 E III.
In his recent post re Thomas of London MichaelAnne (ClaudiusIO) gave the
following pedigree:-
<1. Havise de Dinan+ Fulk Fitz Warin [died 1198]
< 2. Fulk Fitz Warin [died aft. Oct. 8, 1250]+ Maud le Vavsour
< 3. Fulk Fitz Warin [died May 16, 1264]+ Constance Toeni
< 3. Havise Fitz Warin+ William Pantulf
< 3. Eve Fitz Warin+ William de Blanchminster
<snip>
< 4. Eleanor Blanchminster+ Robert le Strange [died Oct. 12, 1276]
< 5. John le Strange
< 5. Fulk le Strange+ Eleanor Giffard
<snip>
If that pedigree is accepted, it would seem likely that the Lordship of
Whitchurch (known in early Medieval times as Whitchurch Warenne) passed from the
Warennes to the L'Estranges with only one intervening generation of "de Albo
Monasterio" ownership.
Camden's Britannia refers to
"...the Barons Le Strange of Blackmere, who were surnamed Le Strange
commonly, and Extranei in Latin Records, for that they were strangers brought hether
by King Henry the Second, and in short time their house was farre propagated.
These of Blackmere were much enriched by an heire of William de Albo-monasterio
, or this Whit-Church, and also by one of the heires of John Lord Giffard of
Brimsfeild, of ancient nobility in Glocestershire, by the onely daughter of
Walter Lord Clifford."
I will try to locate some more sources.
The West Yorkshire Archives (Calderdale) have a Catalogue "Armytage of
Kirklees" which contains at KM/8 a Confirmation by William, Earl Warren (ob. 1240),
of the grant by Reinerus Flandrensis, son of William Flandrensis, to Kirklees
Nunnery, of lands, etc. Witnesses, Osbert Giffard, Auker de Freschenvill,
Willam de Albo Monasterio, Richard de Mednar, Baldwin de Hersin, Thomas de
Horbir, Seneschal of Earl Warrenne, William de Livet, Jordan de Heton, John de
Pleiz, clerk.
So at least it appears that the last Earl Warren did know someone called
William Blanchminster.
The first appearance of a Blanchminster in Cornwall which I have been able
to trace is that of Sir Ralph de Albo Monasterio, returned as a knight
available for military service in 17 E II -see Carew Survey of Cornwall, p45-6.
MM
Rick Eaton
original work.
As the data claims, the WARRENNEs and LE STRANGEs conjoined as follows:
ROGER, 5th Baron STRANGE of Knockyn, d. 1382, m. ALAIVE, dau of EDMUND
FITZALAN, Earl of Arundel by his wife ALICE, dau. of WILLIAM de WARRENNE
Their children were:
John, 6th baron Strange of Knockyn, d. 1397, m. Maud, dau of John, 5th baron
Mohun of Dunster by his wife, "Joane," dau. Of Bartholomew Burghersh
Isabel, m. James, 2nd Lord Audley
LUCY, m WILLIAM, 5th Baron WILLOUGHBY of Eresby.
JOHN, 6th Baron STRANGE of Knockyn, d 1397, m MAUD, dau of JOHN, 5th Baron
Mohun of Dunster by his wife JOANE, dau of BARTHOLOMEW BURGHERSH.
[NAMERick EatonMille...@aol.comeaton.noble@sbcglobal.net
Louise Staley
Proving once again that there is nothing new under the sun, I have done a
search of the Rootsweb archive that's not in Google and found this family
was discussed by Todd Farmerie, Paul Reed and Kay Allen back in 1998. They
used Eyton's Antiquities of Shropshire, George Morris Collections,
Wrottesley's Pedigrees from the Plea Rolls and Farrer's Honors & Knights'
Fees. Their thread was more concerned with the Warenne's of Ightfield but
it touched on the Warenne/Whitchurch/Blancminster/Albo Monasterio family
we are having a look at. For anyone interested, the two threads are
"Warren of Ightfield" and "Warrens of Whitchurch and Ightfield" in July
1998.
Rick, the Strange connection appears in the Shropshire Blancminster family
line in a different way to that you presented. The Alice Warenne who
married Edmund Fitzalan, 2nd Earl of Arundel was the daughter of William
Warenne (of the earls of Surrey line) and Joan Vere. Edmund and Alice's
daughter Alice did however marry Roger Strange 5th Baron Strange of
Knockyn about 1338 as you show. The Strange links to the
Warenne/Blancminster family occur earlier when Eleanor Blancminster
married Robert Strange of Wrockwardine before 1276 and Griffin Warenne
married Maud Strange before about 1320. I would also note that Todd
Farmerie has suggested that this marriage between Griffin and Maud is not
valid and is based on a flawed Visitation.
Michael, thanks for posting these references. I too have looked for this
family and the multiple names makes it even more difficult than just the
usual spelling changes encountered in medieval records. I look forward to
seeing any others you might find.
Here are 7 generations from the earliest Shropshire Blancminster as far as
they appear in my database, (all corrections appreciated). There may be
other children that I haven't included.
I have followed the convention of calling the Whitchurch family
Blancminster and the Ightfield family Warenne. This is merely for clarity
as the surviving records seemed to use the names interchageably and this
family is believed to be related in some (as yet unknown) way to the main
earls of Surrey Warenne line.
I have assigned William of generation 2 two wives; Eva Fitzwarine as per
MichaelAnne's suggestion and made her the mother of the children, and
Clemence, who is I believe assigned as the wife of that generation by
Eyton. For discussion of who this Clemence is see the multiple threads on
the identity of Clemence, mistress of King John I in the archives.
Descendants of Ranulph Blancminster
-----------------------------------
1-Ranulph Blancminster d. Bef 1176
+
|-2-William Blancminster d. Bef 1203
+Emma Wife of William Blancminster
|-3-William Blancminster d. Bef 1260
| +Eva Fitzwarine , par. Sir Fulk III Fitzwarine Knt., of
| Lambourn, Whittington & Alveston and Maud Vavasour
| |-4-Betraya Blancminster co-heiress of Blancminster d. 1280,
| | s.p.
| |-4-Joan Blancminster co-heiress of Blancminster d. , s.p.
| | +William Barrington
| |-4-Maud Blancminster co-heiress of Blancminster
| | +William Bracy
| |-4-Eleanor Blancminster co-heiress of Blancminster d. 1306,
| | Ercall Magna, SAL, ENG
| +Robert Strange of Wrockwardine, SAL d. Bef 12 Oct 1276,
| par. John Strange Lord of Knockyn and Lucy Tregoz
| |-5-Fulk Strange Baron Strange of Blackmere 1st b. Abt
| | 1267, d. Bef 23 Jan 1325
| +Eleanor Gifford d. Bef 1325, par. Sir John Gifford
| Baron Gifford 1st and Maud Clifford
| |-6-John Strange Baron Strange of Blackmere 2nd b. 25
| | Jan 1305, d. 21 Jul 1349
| | +Anchoret Boteler d. 8 Oct 1361, par. William Boteler
| | Baron Boteler 4th and Ela Herdeburgh
| | |-7-Fulk Strange Baron Strange of Blackmere 3rd b. 2
| | | Feb 1331, d. 30 Aug 1349, s.p.m.
| | |-7-John Strange Baron Strange of Blackmere 4th b. Abt
| | | 1332, Whitchurch, SAL, ENG, d. 12 May 1361
| | |-7-Eleanor Strange of Blackmere d. 20 Apr 1396
| |-6-Elizabeth Strange b. 1308, d. Nov 1381
| | +Sir Robert Corbet of Moreton Corbet b. 25 Dec 1304,
| | d. 3 Dec 1375, m. Bef Mar 1323
| | |-7-Sir Roger Corbet of Moreton Corbet d. Abt 1394
| |-6-Maud Strange of Blackmere
| +Griffin Warenne of Ightfield d. 1356, par. John
| Warenne of Ightfield
| |-7-John Warenne of Ightfield d. Bef 1356, v.p.
| +Brian Cornwall of Kinlet b. Abt 1326, d. 1392, par.
| Sir Edmund Cornwall of Kinlet and Elizabeth Brompton
| heiress of Kinlet
| |-7-Isabel Cornwall heiress of Kinlet
| +Sir Bewes Knoville Baron Knoville 1st d. Bef 6 Jul 1307,
| m. Abt 1276
| |-5-Eleanor Knoville
| +Thomas Mauduit of Warminster b. 14 Oct 1287, d. 1322,
| par. Warin Mauduit of Warminster and Elizabeth Lisle
| |-6-John Mauduit b. Abt 1311, d. 1364
| +Clemence Wife of William Blancminster
|-3-Griffin Warenne of Ightfield b. Bef 1234, d. 1286
+Isabel Pulford d. After 1298
|-4-John Warenne of Ightfield b. After 1271, d. After 1335
+
|-5-Griffin Warenne of Ightfield d. 1356
+Maud Strange of Blackmere , par. Fulk Strange Baron
Strange of Blackmere 1st and Eleanor Gifford
|-6-John Warenne of Ightfield d. Bef 1356, v.p.
+
|-7-Griffin Warenne of Ightfield b. Abt 1354, d. After
| 1405
+Matilda Wife of William Blancminster d. After 1238
It is my understanding that the Cornwall Blancminsters received their
Cornish lands as a result of Sir Ranulph Balncminster (d. aft. 1265) being
the son of a Yorkshire heiress, Lucy Turet of Wishale and Halegh Park,
whose inheritance included some of the Cornish possessions. As far as I am
aware the name of Lucy Turet's husband is unknown but going on the dates
he is either a younger son of William Blancminster in generation 2 or a
grandson through a younger son of Ranulph in generation 1.
The answer may well be in "The Story of Stratton Church" by Frederick
James Bone, (1919) William Brendan & Sons: Plymouth. This book is held in
the Cornwall library at Bude and Launceston and also at the Devon and
Exeter Institution Library in Exeter. Is there anyone on the list with
acces to Bude, Launceston or Exeter libraries?
thanks
Louise
Millerf...@aol.com
Fortunately the History of Stratton Church to which you referred is on line at
http://homepages.tesco.net/~k.wasley/Stratton.htm
Though no sources are given, the account of the Blancminsters of Cornwall
agrees with the line that you and I have been working on.
Could you please instruct me how to get to the Rootsweb archive you mention?
I found nothing by Todd, Paul or Kay in the Warenne mailing list for July 1998.
M
Don Stone
Information about accessing sgm/GM archives can be found at
http://www.rootsweb.com/~medieval/arch.htm. Follow the top link on that
page to get the the archives Louise mentioned.
-- Don Stone
Louise Staley
Use the browse function for the Rootsweb archives and browse July 1998
then your browser's search function to search for Whitchurch, this will
bring them up in threaded format.
An excerpt from the Bone book I am trying to get a copy of is also online.
Unfortunately it is tantalising in what it doesn't say.
See http://www.localhistory.co.uk/ambra/txtco/co0025.htm
regards
Louise
Tim Powys-Lybbe
<snip>
> Descendants of Ranulph Blancminster
> -----------------------------------
> 1-Ranulph Blancminster d. Bef 1176
> +
> |-2-William Blancminster d. Bef 1203
> +Emma Wife of William Blancminster
> |-3-William Blancminster d. Bef 1260
> | +Eva Fitzwarine , par. Sir Fulk III Fitzwarine Knt., of
> | Lambourn, Whittington & Alveston and Maud Vavasour
> | |-4-Betraya Blancminster co-heiress of Blancminster d. 1280,
> | | s.p.
> | |-4-Joan Blancminster co-heiress of Blancminster d. , s.p.
> | | +William Barrington
> | |-4-Maud Blancminster co-heiress of Blancminster
> | | +William Bracy
> | |-4-Eleanor Blancminster co-heiress of Blancminster d. 1306,
> | | Ercall Magna, SAL, ENG
> | +Robert Strange of Wrockwardine, SAL d. Bef 12 Oct 1276,
> | par. John Strange Lord of Knockyn and Lucy Tregoz
<snip>
> | +Sir Bewes Knoville Baron Knoville 1st d. Bef 6 Jul 1307,
> | m. Abt 1276
> | |-5-Eleanor Knoville
> | +Thomas Mauduit of Warminster b. 14 Oct 1287, d. 1322,
> | par. Warin Mauduit of Warminster and Elizabeth Lisle
> | |-6-John Mauduit b. Abt 1311, d. 1364
Very interesting this: CP, VII, 347, says emphatically that Eleanor and
Bewes had no issue and there is no correction in Vol XIV or (yet) on
Chris Phillips' site. Tell us more?
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
Louise Staley
Dear Tim et. al,
This is from a post by MichaelAnne Guido on the 8th Feb 2005 in the thread
"Ancestry of Thomas de London, lord of Kidwelly?"
In part, that message included this line:
1. Havise de Dinan
+ Fulk Fitz Warin [died 1198]
2. Fulk Fitz Warin [died aft. Oct. 8, 1250]
+ Maud le Vavsour
3. Eve Fitz Warin
+ William de Blanchminster
4. Eleanor Blanchminster
+ Robert le Strange [died Oct. 12, 1276]
+ Brewes de Knoville [Bogo de Knoville died shortly before
July 6, 1307]
5. Eleanor de Knoville
+ Thomas Mauduit [Oct. 14, 1287-1322]
+ Richard de Peres
As I am primarily interested in Eleanor Blancminster's marriage to Robert
Strange of Wrockwardine, I didn't query her other marriage. I assume,
without that much careful checking, that in fact Eleanor Knoville is the
daughter of Sir Bewes Knoville and Joan, his fist wife, rather than of
Eleanor Blancminster, his second wife. In other words, I have no
information to overturn CP and this was well spotted (good to know someone
is actually reading these posts).
regards
Louise
P.S. to Tim, I see there is a Barrington link in this line, although
unfortunately d.s.p. :-)
--
Quod dixi dixi
Claud...@aol.com
CP does state that there were no children by the marriage of Eleanor
Blanchminster and Brewes de Knoville, but as was discussed previously on SGM in the
thread, the following was posted by Todd Farmerie:
There is a surviving 15th century manuscript which is a copy of a
list of Shropshire tenants in chief (apparently dated after the
above 9 Edward I IPM, and sometime prior to 21 Edward I). It
says with respect to Albo Monasterio:
Bogo de Knovile per Alianorem ejus ux. et Rob. de Bracy per
Matildam ux. suam t. maner. de A. M. (Albo Monasterio) cum
membris, sc. Hilton, Burthall', Wodhows, Magna Asche, Parva
Asche, Tildestoke, Hethley, et Kempley, de Comite Warene, et ipse
de d'no R. in cap. ut membrum Baroniae suae. Et habet ibi lib.
cur. suam bis in anno, plac. [de] sang. et hutens lev. et furcas,
marcat. et fer. et warann. nesciunt quo waranto. De quib.
membris Nich. Audeleche t. Kempley. Et Joh'es fil. Hug. t. vill.
de Hynton de predictis Bogone et Rob'to.
So we have the dates of between 1281 to 1293 when the marriage of Brewes de
Knoville and Eleanor Blanchminster occurred. Robert le Strange died Oct. 12,
1276 and his widow married after that date. This date can be narrowed by the
birth dates of his two other children. Margaret de Knoville married Thomas de
Verdun of Brixworth, co. Northampton and her son John de Verdun was born June 24,
1299. At the latest Margaret would have been born 1284 to be his mother. Her
brother only son and heir of Brewes de Knoville also named Brewes de Knoville
is stated to have been born November 6, 1281, in his father's IPM:
Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, Vol. V, Edward II, Kraus Reprint, 1973:
Pages 335-336:
446. Bevis (Bogo) de Knoville alias de Cnovyle.
Writ, 6 July, 35 Edward I.
Wilts. Inq. 3 August, 35 Edward I.
Dicherygge. The manor (extent given with names of tenants) including a
messuage, 1/2 virgate of land, 1/2 acre of meadow, and 1 1/2 acres wood which Adam
de Alecombe holds, owing suit at the hundred of Bissoppeston for the manor of
Dicherygge, held of the king, by reason of lands which were of Roger le Bigod,
sometime marshal of England, now in the king's hand, by service of 1/2
knight's fee except a fifth part; and it is of the inheritance of Joan (deceased)
late the wife of the said Bevis.
Bevis his son, aged 30, is his next heir.
Marches of Wales. Inq. made at Strugull, 31 July 1307.
Marthern. The manor (extent given) held of the king in chief, as of the
Honour of Strugull now in the king's hand, by service of a Welsh knight's fee.
Heir as above, aged 24 and more.
Gloucester. Inq. 1 August, 35 Edward I.
Gravenhull. Seven tenants rendering 19s. 7 1/2d. yearly, held of the king in
chief by service of 1/20 knight's fee.
Little Teynton. Two carucates of land (extent given), including a capital
messuage, held of Alan Plockenet by service of a pair of gloves, price 1d.
Kylkoite. A carucate of land (extent given) including a capital messuage and
12 acres wood within the forest of Dene, held in chief of John de Ferrariis by
socage, rendering 1/2d. (yearly).
Heir as above, aged 24 at the Feast of St. Leonard last.
C.
Edw. I. File 131. (11.)
As to the birthdate for Eleanor de Knoville we know that she was born at
least by 1293-4 as her son John de Mauduit was born Feb. 2, 1310/11 and Eleanor
was named in a fine with her husband in 1310:
A Calendar of the Feet of Fines of Huntingdonshire levied in the King's Court
1194-1603, edited by G.J. Turner, Cambridge Antiquarian Society Publications,
Volume 37, 1913:
Page 53:
9. Bewteen Thomas Mauduyt and Alianora his wife -----and Simon filius
Ricardi---- of the manor of Bukeworth', which Amicia the widow of Ricardus filius
Simonis holds for the term of her life. 3 Edward II [1310].
Thomas Mauduit was born October 14, 1287, and died in 1322 as he was executed
after the battle of Boroughbridge. His widow Eleanor remarried Richard de
Perers and is named in fines of her son John and his wife Juliana:
Calendar of Close Rolls, Edward III, 1327-1330, Kraus Reprint, 1972:
Page 16:
March 12, 1327.
To William Trussel, escheator this side of Trent. Order to deliver to
Eleanor, late wife of Thomas Mauduyt, tenant in chief of the late king, a third of
the manor of Wermenstre, co. Wilts, of the yearly value of £48 8s. 2d., and a
third of the manor of Westbury, in the same county, of the yearly value of £9
4s. 1d., which the king has assigned to her as her dower. Westminster.
C 143/221/2
John son of Thomas Mauduyt to settle the advowson of the chapel of the manor
of Warminster and two-thirds of the manor and hundred of Warminster, and of a
messuage, land, and rent in Westbury, with reversion of the remaining third of
the same now held by Richard de Perers and Eleanor his wife as in right of
dower of the said Eleanor, on himself and Juliana his wife and the heirs of
their bodies, with remainder to his right heirs, retaining the manor of Grately
(Hants.) with a messuage and land in Deane (Hants.). Wilts. Hants. 6 Edward III.
SC 8/63/3112
Petitioners: John [Maudut (Mauduit)], son and heir of Thomas Mauduit.
Addressees: King and council
Places mentioned: Pontefract, [West Riding of Yorkshire].
Other people mentioned: Thomas Maudut (Mauduit), father of the petitioner;
Thomas [of Lancaster], Earl of Lancaster; Hugh le Despenser, the elder.
Nature of request: Maudut requests that the king grant to him his custody and
marriage since the king has made grace to those who are of full age of the
quarrel with the earl of Lancaster, and he holds in chief of the king. Maudut's
father was executed at Pontefract and the lands, goods and chattels were given
to Despenser so that he and his mother could have anything of it until now.
Endorsement: Because the process made against Thomas was examined in full
parliament is adjudged erroneous, and the judgment by common assent of the same
parliament is repealed and annulled, let the heir be restored to his
inheritance and the wife to her dower by due process notwithstanding the judgment.
So chronologically it would appear that Eleanor was the daughter of Eleanor
Blanchminster second wife of Brewes de Knoville. The only problem with this
entire scenario is that 1/3 of a moiety of the manor of Dicherich, co. Wiltshire
passed to John Mauduit. This land does not show up in his IPM but is referred
to as the dower of his Juliana in a later document:
Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, Volume 11, Edward III.
#593. John Mauduyt of Wermenstre, knight.
Writ, 4 April, 38 Edward III.
Wilts. Inq. made in the city of Salisbury, Tuesday the last day of April 38
Edward III.
Weremenstre, The manor held of the king in chief by knight's service in joint
feoffment with Juliana his wife, who survives, by a fine levied in the king's
court.
Westbury. A messuage, 2 carucates of land, 20 acres meadow, 100 acres wood
and 100s. rent, with the advowson of the chapel there, held of the king in chief
by knight's service, in joint feoffment as above, and by the same fine. He
held no other lands &c. in the county.
He died on 1 April last. Maud the daughter of Thomas Mauduyt his son aged 9
years on the Feast of St. Leonard last, is his heir.
[This is a transcription in English of the document above].
Huntingdon. Inq. taken at Huntyndon, Wednesday after St. Petronilla, 38
Edward III.
Buckworth. The manor, held for life of William la Souche of Haveryngworth by
knight's service, by demise of Nicholas de Waddon and William Payn, chaplains,
with remainder to Thomas, his son, and Joan his said son's wife, and the
heirs of their bodies. The said Thomas died on Friday after SS. Simon and Jude 35
Edward III. Joan after the death of John Mauduyt, claiming the manor by the
above grant, entered and holds the manor.
John died on the last day of March, 38 Edward III. Maud daughter of the
aforesaid Thomas, aged 9 years and more, is his heir.
C.
Edw. III. File 182. (2.)
Calendar of Fine Rolls, Vol. IX, Richard II, 1377-1383, Kraus Reprint 1986:
Page 136:
May 19, 1379. Westminster.
Order to Thomas de Illeston, escheator in the counties of Wiltshire and
Southampton,--pursuant to an inquisition made by him showing that Juliana late wife
of John Mauduyt did not hold any lands in the said counties in her demesne as
of fee but held in chief by knight service in joint feoffment with her said
husband deceased, to wit, to them and heirs of their bodies, the manor of
Wermenstre, a messuage, 2 carucates of land, 20 acres of meadow, 100 acres of wood
and 100s. rent in Westbury, and the advowson of the chapel of that town, by a
fine levied in the court of Edward III, and also held of the king by knight
service, as of the king's manor of Hamstedmarchal, a third part of a moiety of
the manor of Dicherich, co. Wiltshire, in dower after the death of her said
husband, the manor of Cratele, co. Southampton, of the heirs of Humphrey de
Bohun, late earl of Hereford, minors in the king's ward, and that Maud, daughter of
Thomas Mauduyt the son and heir of John and Juliana, whom Henry Grene,
knight, has taken to wife, is next heir of John and Juliana, and of full age --to
deliver the premises to the said Henry and Maud.
If the moiety at Dierich came into the possession of the Mauduit family
through Eleanor it had originally come through his first wife Joan de la Hyde, but
the manor according to the IPM of Brewes de Knoville passed to his son and
heir Brewes de Knoville but by November 12, 1338, when Brewes de Knoville died
his IPM states that the only thing he held in Dicherich was a messuage and water
mill that passed to his son John de Knoville and his wife Margery:
Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, Vol. VIII, Edward III, 1913:
#175. Bogo or Bugo de Knovill, knight.
Writ, 3 November, 12 Edward III. Teste, Edward Duke of Cornwall &c.
Cambridge. Inq. 15 November, 12 Edward III.
Lynton. A messuage and 1 acre 1/2 rood land held of the earl of Hereford by
service of a rose yearly. He held no other lands &c. in the county. John his
son aged 23 years and more, is his next heir.
Wiltshire. Inq. taken at Chipham, 23 November, 12 Edward III.
Dicherigge. A messuage, a water-mill, lands, and rent (extent given). held
for life of the lordship of Strugull by the service of a quarter of a knight's
fee; which lands & c. after his death ought to remain to John de Knovyll and
Margery his wife, and the heirs of their bodies. Heir as above.
Gloucester. Inq. 6 December, 12 Edward III.
Gravenhulle. 15s. 4 1/2d. yearly rent from six free tenants, held of the king
in chief by service of a twenty-seventh part of a knight's fee.
Zarkleye by Lydeneye, within the forest of Dene. An assart, containing 36
acres of land, held of the king in chief rendering 9s. yearly.
Kyllcote and Little Teynton. A messuage, lands and rent (extent given), held
for his life, jointly with Joan his wife, by fine levied in the king's court,
12 Edward II, of Henry de Penebruge, as of the inheritance of Robert Walrond,
knight, in free socage. He held no other lands &c. in the county, nor in the
March (of Wales). Heir as above.
C. Edw. III. File 54. (3.)
Whether the manor was sold or transferred by other means I have been unable
to find out. The manor in this case is not conclusive proof that there was any
connection between Eleanor de Knoville and Joan de la Hyde.
Best regards,
MichaelAnne
Louise Staley
Thank-you for posting this. I am having difficulty folllowing the logic as
to why Eleanor Knoville is a daughter of Eleanor Blancminster.
The timeline from the sources below seems to be:
1276 Robert Strange, 1st husband of Eleanor Blancminster dies
1281 Bewes Knoville son of Bewes Knoville and Joan de la Hyde born
1284 latest date for Margaret Knoville, daughter of Bewes and Joan to be
born
1293 latest date for the marriage of Bewes Knoville and Eleanor
Blancminster
1295 latest date for Eleanor Knoville to be born if she had a son in 1311
1307 Bewes son of Bewes inherits the manor of Dicherich, co. Wiltshire
which came into the family from his mother Joan de la Hyde
1338 Bewes jnr dies holding only a messuage and water mill in Dicherich
1378 Juliana, widow of Eleanor Knoville's son John dies holding 1/3 of a
moeity in Dicherich
From this it looks like Eleanor was the daughter of Joan de la Hyde since
her son ended up holding some of the de la Hyde inheritance, perhaps due
to a gift from Bewes jnr to his sister at some point. Eleanor Knoville
could have been born as early as 1287 when her husband was born and the
latest date possible for her birth is 1295 (she would have given birth at
16). Similarly, the marriage of Bewes Knoville and Eleanor Blancminster
occurred sometime between 1281 and 1293 yet we know it was not likely to
be in the earliest years of that timeframe since that's when Bewes jnr and
Margaret were born. I may be missing something but it seems to me that
Eleanor Knoville was most likely born about 1290 and was the daughter of
Joan.
regards
Louise
--
Quod dixi dixi
Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com
I believe the vernacular form of the Latin given name Bogo is Boges,
Booges, or Beges. You can find the vernacular forms Boges and Booges
on ancient rolls of arms on Brian Timms' website at www.briantimms.com
(see Stirling and Camden Rolls). I've also found the vernacular form
Beges used in the French transcript of a contemporary lawsuit.
Historians often leave the name, Bogo, untranslated in the Latin form,
perhaps because they are not familiar with the name. I think there is
also a discussion of this given name in Complete Peerage in an
addendum.
When the vernacular form is known, it should certainly be used instead
of the Latin form. So take your pick: Boges, Booges, or Beges.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry.net
Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com
I just realized that Bogo de Knoville is also listed on Brian Timms'
website on the St. George's Roll. That roll spells his name in the
vernacular as Boges. So we have two Boges, and one Booges from the
rolls on Brian Timms' website.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com
Bogo de Knoville also appears on Brian Timms' website on the Charles
Roll as Beges de Knoville.
So we have two Boges, one Booges, and one Beges from Brian Timms'
website, but no Bewes. I already mentioned that I've elsewhere found
the vernacular spelling Beges used in a contemporary lawsuit.
Claud...@aol.com
You were the one who originally corrected me several months ago as I always
used Bogo de Knoville. Here is a posting from December 200:
Dec 27 2000, 10:10 am show options
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
From: douglasrichard...@hotmail.com - Find messages by this author
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2000 17:58:03 GMT
Local: Wed, Dec 27 2000 9:58 am
Subject: Re: Margaret de Verdun Pilkington?
Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original |
Report Abuse
Dear Newsgroup:
In my post below, I inadvertedly posted that Sir John de Verdun (Gen.
No. 4) was born in 1249 and died c. 1376. I meant to type he was born
on 24 January 1299 and died c. 1376.
The Verdun-Bradshagh-Pilkington descent below is ancestral to the
following immigrants:
1. Thomas Bressey
2. Elizabeth (Butler) Claiborne, of VA
3. Agatha (Eltonhead) Wormeley Chicheley, Martha (Eltonhead) Conway,
Alice (Eltonhead) Burnham Corbin Creyk, Jane (Eltonhead) Morison
Fenwick, and Eleanor (Eltonhead) Brocas Carter.
4. Simon Lynde, of MA
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royalances...@msn.com
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royalances...@msn.com
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
In article <92cdbm$us...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
douglasrichard...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Hi Jamey:
> Here is your Verdun-Pilkington line:
> 1. John de Verdun, of Bressingham, Norfolk, and Culpho, Suffolk,
> married Isabel, daughter of Simon Fitz Simon, of Brixworth, co.
> Northampton.
> 2. Sir John de Verdun, of Bressingham, Saxlingham, and Great Moulton,
> Norfolk, born 1256, died 1295. He married about 1272 to Alianor,
> daughter of Thomas de Furnival (died 1291), of Sheffield, co. York (of
> Carolingian descent). He was heir in 1280 to his uncle, Simon Fitz
> John, by which he inherited the manors of Brixworth and Cranford St.
> John, co. Northampton.
> 3. Sir Thomas de Verdun, of Brixworth, Cranford St. John, co.
> Northampton, and Bressingham, Norfolk, son and heir, born 1276, died
> 1315. He was married about 1295, to Margaret de Knoville, daughter of
> Bewes de Knoville, lst Lord Knoville, of Blanchminster, co. Salop.
> 4. Sir John de Verdun, of Brixworth and Cranford St. John, co.
> Northampton, Bressingham, Norfolk, etc., born 1249, died c. 1376. He
> was married (lst) in or before 1325/6, to Agnes (____).
> 5. Edmund de Verdun, of Stagenhoe (in St. Paul's Walden), co.
Hertford,
> son and heir apparent, born say 1325, died v.p. He married before in
> or before 1350/1, to Joan (_____).
> 6. Margaret (or Margery) Verdun, daughter and heiress, born say 1355,
> died 1436. She married (lst) before 1379 to Hugh de Bradshagh, Knt.
> (died 1383). She married (2nd) in 1383 to Sir John Pilkington (died
> 1421), of Pilkington (in Prestwich), co. Lancaster.
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
> E-mail: royalances...@msn.com
MichaelAnne
CED
me. I suspect that the differences between "Bogo" and the various
forms of that name ending with "s" reflect differences in the use of
case endings in the written language at the time, rather than formal
versus vulgar. Just as Nigel > Neil, and Rognwald or Reginald > Reynold
(Renaud), Bogo or Boges > Bewes, the latter from in each case more
nearly reflecting the pronuncation. (This softening of the medial "g"
was at work very early, as the German "fugel" = the English "fowl."
The modern Nigel and Reginald would be anachronistic artificial
recreations.)
Normally the "vernacular" is everyday language spoken by the people as
distinguished from the literary language. Since we are dealing with
written texts, using the term "vernacular" is an odd usage in itself.
CED
Chris Phillips
CED wrote:
> Those on the list who know linguistics better than I, please correct
> me. I suspect that the differences between "Bogo" and the various
> forms of that name ending with "s" reflect differences in the use of
> case endings in the written language at the time, rather than formal
> versus vulgar. Just as Nigel > Neil, and Rognwald or Reginald > Reynold
> (Renaud), Bogo or Boges > Bewes, the latter from in each case more
> nearly reflecting the pronuncation. (This softening of the medial "g"
> was at work very early, as the German "fugel" = the English "fowl."
> The modern Nigel and Reginald would be anachronistic artificial
> recreations.)
The Complete Peerage appendix "Some Observations on Mediaeval Names" (vol.
3, Appendix C) agrees:
"[quoting Stevenson] Now with regard to Bogo, the nom. of this appears
written Beughes, Bouges, Bueges, Boeges, in English-French records ... The
g, gh, has the value of w, and the proper form would be Beues, etc. (cf.
also Drogo, Dreues, Drew, whence the surnames Druce, Drew.) The g spelling
seems to have been introduced, on the analogy of Hughes for Hues, specially
to avoid confusion with Bevis...."
[p. 605, note b]
Further on it adds:
"Modern surnames such as Bogg or Buggins cannot spring from
Bogo for, as W. H. Stevenson points out, the Latin g could not
have remained unchanged in English, but had become the French u
before 1066, hence Bogo gives Bewes and not Bogg."
[p. 613]
In case anyone is wondering, it's suggested that the origin of Bugg may be
the Old English woman's name "Bucge".
Chris Phillips
Douglas Richardson royalancestry@msn.com
I've seen Boges, Booges, and Beges. All are very close and similar.
I've never seen Bevis or Bewes. I'm not sure I agree that the
statement that "the proper form would be Beues." I think Boges or
Beges suffice nicely. Anything but the Latin form, Bogo.
If anyone knows of more examples of this given name name in the
vernacular, I'd appreciate it if they'd post them here on the
newsgroup. This is a rare name that doesn't occur often in the
records. The name is so rare that the editor of the Selden Society
volume I saw mistook this name for a woman's given name.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancesty.net
CED
The form of medieval names is most often a matter of linguistics.
(Example: linguistic analysis proves that both "Alice" and "Adela" are
derived from the Latin form of the German name "Adelheid.") Since we
do not know the extent to which the written forms of medieval names
reflected their pronunciation except by linguistic analysis, what an
individual might have noticed in the written records is merely
anecdotal evidence of no consequence with out systematic analysis
(unless you are an expert).
What a person might "think" should be backed up by citation of an
authority or by such systematic study as to qualify the person as an
expert.
Again "vernacular" is an inappropriate term when refering to medieval
written records. Please check the dictionary for a definition of
"vernacular." Go to google and type in "vernacular etymology
definition."
You might not have seen "Bewes" because it's use in the period would
probably be in the vernacular.
The Boges > Bewes is possibly analogous to Hughes > Hewes, a Sixteenth
Century surname in Somerset and Middlesex.
CED
Chris Phillips
> I haven't seen Beughes, Bouges, Bueges, Boeges in records. Rather,
> I've seen Boges, Booges, and Beges. All are very close and similar.
> I've never seen Bevis or Bewes. I'm not sure I agree that the
> statement that "the proper form would be Beues." I think Boges or
> Beges suffice nicely. Anything but the Latin form, Bogo.
>
> If anyone knows of more examples of this given name name in the
> vernacular, I'd appreciate it if they'd post them here on the
> newsgroup. This is a rare name that doesn't occur often in the
> records. The name is so rare that the editor of the Selden Society
> volume I saw mistook this name for a woman's given name.
I suspect the problem is that the name may have become virtually extinct by
the time we have records in English from which we could get direct evidence
of the vernacular form.
I think the implication of the CP comments is that "Beughes, Bouges, Bueges,
Boeges" appear in records written in French, like the ones you cited. So the
possibility is that these reflect the French spelling, and it becomes very
difficult to know what would have been the English spelling (if the name was
ever spelled in English!).
Chris Phillips
Todd A. Farmerie
> P.P.S.
>
> Bogo de Knoville also appears on Brian Timms' website on the Charles
> Roll as Beges de Knoville.
But in the same column, we see Water, Willem, Joan (for John),
Averai (for Alfred), Hamund, Hue, Baudwin, Rauf, etc. Are you
planning on using these equivalent 'vernacular' forms as well?
taf