Toumanoff request

[Rafal Prinke]

Don Stone <DonS...@PLANTAGENET.COM> wrote:

>According to Prince Cyril Toumanoff's *Les Dynasties de la Caucasie
>Chretienne de l'Antiquite jusqu'au XIXe Siecle* (Rome, 1990), p. 490,
>Andronicus I (d. 1185) married (1) c. 1144 a dau. of Demetrius I, King
>of Georgia, by whom he had Manuel, Jean, Marie and a dau. who marr.

I have no access to Toumanoff's works - so could I ask you to check
the following (if you have it at hand, of course)?

There is the earlier Demetrius - the anti-king of Georgia, son of
George I (d. 1027). In Justi's pedigrees he is the father of
Irene, wife of Isaak Komnenos, and of David, whose line became
rulers of Ossetia and produced David Soslan, husband of queen Tamar
of Georgia.

Does Toumanoff say anything about that line or other rulers of Ossetia
at that time?

Best regards,

Rafal

[Stewart Baldwin]

Rafal Prinke <raf...@HUM.AMU.EDU.PL> wrote:

>Don Stone <DonS...@PLANTAGENET.COM> wrote:

And, just as important, does Toumanoff cite any checkable sources for
his information, which could then be followed up to see if they offer
any clues to the parentage of Maria of Ossetia?

Stewart Baldwin

[Don Stone]

Rafal Prinke wrote:
>
> I have no access to Toumanoff's works - so could I ask you to check
> the following (if you have it at hand, of course)?
>
> There is the earlier Demetrius - the anti-king of Georgia, son of
> George I (d. 1027). In Justi's pedigrees he is the father of
> Irene, wife of Isaak Komnenos, and of David, whose line became
> rulers of Ossetia and produced David Soslan, husband of queen Tamar
> of Georgia.
>
> Does Toumanoff say anything about that line or other rulers of Ossetia
> at that time?

Here is the information Toumanoff gives on pp. 134-6 of *Les Dynasties
de la Caucasie Chretienne de l'Antiquite jusqu'au XIXe Siecle* about the
line you mention:
Demetrius, died c. 1053, anti-king, had two children, David (who
married a dau. of the king of Alania [Ossetia]) and Irene Augusta.
David was the father of Aton, who was the father of Djadaros, who m. (1)
Rousoudan, dau. of David II, King of Georgia, and m. (2) N.N.
Djadaros was the father (by which wife is not specified) of
David-Soslan, d. 1207, co-king of Georgia, who married in 1189 Thamar I,
Queen of Georgia.

I can find no other relevant mention of Ossetia or Alania in Toumanoff.

Stewart Baldwin wrote:
>
> And, just as important, does Toumanoff cite any checkable sources for
> his information, which could then be followed up to see if they offer
> any clues to the parentage of Maria of Ossetia?

Toumanoff presents a large number of genealogical charts and
chronological tables, followed by an extensive bibliography.
Unfortunately, there are just a few notes associated with the charts.
Most of the information in the charts and tables is not commented on
or keyed to the references in the bibliography. I scanned through the
bibliography looking for books or articles with Ossetia or Alania in
their title and didn't find any. There were many references relating to
Georgia, some in Russian and some in Georgian.

-- Don Stone

[Rafal Prinke]

Don Stone <DonS...@PLANTAGENET.COM>

>Here is the information Toumanoff gives on pp. 134-6 of *Les Dynasties
>de la Caucasie Chretienne de l'Antiquite jusqu'au XIXe Siecle* about the
>line you mention:
> Demetrius, died c. 1053, anti-king, had two children, David (who

Thanks a lot. So he adds nothing new to the Brosset/Justi information
(except perhaps the death date of Demetrius).

>Most of the information in the charts and tables is not commented on
>or keyed to the references in the bibliography. I scanned through the
>bibliography looking for books or articles with Ossetia or Alania in
>their title and didn't find any. There were many references relating to
>Georgia, some in Russian and some in Georgian.

Now it seem most important to check the Eremian article which is
referenced in Pashuto's book for the information that Maria was
David Soslan's relative. If this is established, then Maria's Bagratid
ancestry will be proved (even if we do not know the exact parentage).

I have talked to a friend here who studies the Polish community in Georgia
and has good contacts at the university in Tbilisi. He promised to
help.

Best regards,

Rafal

[Rosenthal S.]

Rafal Prinke wrote:
>
> Don Stone <DonS...@PLANTAGENET.COM> wrote:
>
> >According to Prince Cyril Toumanoff's *Les Dynasties de la Caucasie
> >Chretienne de l'Antiquite jusqu'au XIXe Siecle* (Rome, 1990), p. 490,
> >Andronicus I (d. 1185) married (1) c. 1144 a dau. of Demetrius I, King
> >of Georgia, by whom he had Manuel, Jean, Marie and a dau. who marr.
>

> I have no access to Toumanoff's works - so could I ask you to check
> the following (if you have it at hand, of course)?
>
> There is the earlier Demetrius - the anti-king of Georgia, son of
> George I (d. 1027). In Justi's pedigrees he is the father of
> Irene, wife of Isaak Komnenos, and of David, whose line became
> rulers of Ossetia and produced David Soslan, husband of queen Tamar
> of Georgia.
>
> Does Toumanoff say anything about that line or other rulers of Ossetia
> at that time?
>

> Best regards,
>
> Rafal

--
Hmmmm. Those names really sound Jewish. I guess anyone can be an Isaak
or a David, but Tamar? There have been legends that I have seen
that the Royal houses of Armenia were Israelites, perhaps Georgia
too?

Seth Rosenthal
se...@fpk.hp.com

[W. David Samuelsen]

William Addams Reitwiesner wrote:

> They're not Jewish as much as Biblical. If you want to see some non-Jews
> with Jewish names, check out the New England Puritans. Moses, Levi,
> Joshua, Hiram, Ezekiel, Aaron, and so on were common men's names there.
>
> William Addams Reitwiesner
> wr...@erols.com

The New England Puritans started using the Biblical names in 1600's and
got zealous soon afterward.

The Ossetians were way back before anyone had any sense to use the
Biblical names except the royalty/nobility, so Seth's remark raise a
possibility since I was reading about the Ten Tribes traveling northward
from Assyria through the very area which now has Georgia, Armenia, etc.

W. David Samuelsen
ds...@xmission.com

[William Addams Reitwiesner]

[Chris Bennett]

In article <32AD0C...@xmission.com>, ds...@xmission.com wrote:

> William Addams Reitwiesner wrote:
> >
> > "Rosenthal S." <se...@FPK.HP.COM> wrote:

<snip>

> > >Hmmmm. Those names really sound Jewish. I guess anyone can be an Isaak
> > >or a David, but Tamar? There have been legends that I have seen
> > >that the Royal houses of Armenia were Israelites, perhaps Georgia
> > >too?
> > >
> > >
> > >Seth Rosenthal
> > >se...@fpk.hp.com
> >
> > They're not Jewish as much as Biblical. If you want to see some non-Jews
> > with Jewish names, check out the New England Puritans. Moses, Levi,
> > Joshua, Hiram, Ezekiel, Aaron, and so on were common men's names there.
> >
> > William Addams Reitwiesner
> > wr...@erols.com
>

> The New England Puritans started using the Biblical names in 1600's and
> got zealous soon afterward.
>
> The Ossetians were way back before anyone had any sense to use the
> Biblical names except the royalty/nobility, so Seth's remark raise a
> possibility since I was reading about the Ten Tribes traveling northward
> from Assyria through the very area which now has Georgia, Armenia, etc.
>
> W. David Samuelsen
> ds...@xmission.com

Well, there is a curious tradition that certain Armenian families were
descended from Sennacherib's son, the one who killed him and, according to
both Isaiah and Assyrian sources, fled to Ararat (Urartu).......a somewhat
odd choice of ancestor, I've always thought.

CHris