Clere marriage

[Richard Borthwick]

I have come accross a marriage for Ralph (II) de Clere (d.>1232). He
married Margaret dau. and coheir of Peter fitz Henry fitz Ailwin, the last
named being mayor of London from about 1192 (1187 in some sources) until
his death. Peter died in 1207. Her mother was Isabel (d<10 Dec 1203) dau.
and heir of Bartholomew de Chesney (d.>1161) of Addington, Surrey. The
source is HKF III:348. Ralph (II) was father of Sir Roger (III) (d.1248)
husband of Maud de Fay. What is not clear is whether Margaret was Roger's
mother. Does anyone have any information about this?

[Cristopher Nash]

Richard Borthwick <rg...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> wrote --

This is intriguing. For me because Joan, also da. of Peter fitz Henry fitz
Ailwin and Isabel 'de Chenney' (d. of Batholomew 'de Chenney') m. William
Aiguillon (who d. bef. 3 Oct 1244) [per Copinger, _Hist of Suff._, (1905),
I, 46-7].

Have you the sense that your Chesney line = Chesney/Che(n)ney/Cayneto, with
discoverable connection perhaps to William de Chesney/Che(n)ney/Cayneto
whose da. Margaret m. Robert FitzRoger (d.1212) s. of Roger FitzRichard?

I'm almost sorry to be mentioning the possibility of this link and I think
we've gotta step lightly now, in view of the Clare/Clere turmoil here. The
Robert FitzRoger/Roger FitzRichard names (leading to the
Wark[worth]/Clavering lines with FitzEustace/Lacy associations) shouldn't
be confused with the line of Robert FitzRichard who probably brings the
_C_l_a_r_e_s_ closer to substantial personal power in London than at any
other time (down to Robert FitzWalter's baronial leadership with London as
his base at the close of Henry fitz Ailwin's mayoralty). On the other hand,
I know you're thinking of the Clare/Clere debate, and I guess the reason
I've brought this up is that we might as well drag the possibilities out
into the open, if only to get em out of the way....

(For my money, Clere and Clare are distinct.)

Cris