Jocelyn again
Murray Lynn
history claiming Joscelin of Sempringham, father of St Gilbert, as their
ancestor is incorrect (and have given me vast amounts of information on
the Jocelyn family tree - thanks again guys!!), I have been wondering if
I can identify the correct Jocelyn ancestor in the Domesday Book.
The first firm location of the Jocelyn family, is Hyde Hall near
Sawbridgeworth in Essex as early as about 1250 (possibly earlier
according to one account). Their early marriages were to the "Battell
(Battyle) family of Ongar" ca, 1226 - who appear to have be from
Stapleford Abbots - and the Hydes of Hyde Hall ca. 1250.
Assuming that they lived somewhere in the region of Sawbridgeworth ca
1086 and that their name was one of the many Jocelyn variants leads me
to Goscelin the Lorimer of Becontree in Essex.
Goscelin had the manor of Little Ilford - now Manor Park - at Ilford in
London on the Roding River. His land was surrounded by church owned
properties at Barking, East & West Ham etc.
Little Ilford is only a few miles by river to Stapleford Abbott and
assuming the river was a natural highway, it would make the then
inhabitants of the Battell estate one of his nearest neighbours
(especially since the direct neighbours were presumably religious
establishments). Hide Hall is only a few more miles up the river -
about 20 miles from Little Ilford.
While this is very circumstantial evidence, I feel that Goscelin is a
strong contender.
Questions:
- Does anyone know anything about Goscelin the Lorimer?
- A lorimer appears to be a metal worker, given that he was some sort of
nobleman or man of influence would he have been the King's armourer or
similar?
- Does a location near to London mean he was generally further up the
pecking order in Williams court? Glancing at the lists of names in
Domesday, those closer to London appear to have larger estates and 'seem
more important'.
- Is anything known about the Battells or the families of the earlier
Jocelyn marriages (1200 - 1100): Chastelyn and possibly Threckenholm,
Bissett, Goushold and Fleming - in particular where they lived?
I have written up a lot of this at Joscelyn Notes
<http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mlynn/16_Josselyn/FT_Joscelin_Notes_On_Early_History.html>
- note that this is still a work in progress but contains most of the
information I have been gathering.
--
Kind Regards
Murray
Christchurch
New Zealand
Web Site <http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mlynn/>
Douglas Richardson
Your assumptions are wrong. The earliest traceable ancestor of the
Josselyn family is a certain John Josselyn, who resided in
Northamptonshire in the early 1200's. He had nothing whatsoever to do
with Goscelin the Lorimer, of Becontree, Essex, nor, for that matter,
with Joscelin of Sempringham. John Josselyn married a Boseville
heiress. This information is based on my own personal research which
is not available in print.
The Boseville family were scattered throughout England. Sir Hubert de
Burgh, Earl of Kent, who was a contemporary of John Josselyn, named his
ancestor, William de Boseville, in one of his charters [see S.H.F.
Johnston "The Lands of Hubert de Burgh" in English Historical
Review, 50 (1935): 418-432]. Earl Hubert's exact connection to the
Boseville family has never been established.
Good luck in your sleuthing.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Murray Lynn wrote:
< Now that Tim and Leo have convincingly shown that the Jocelyn family
< history claiming Joscelin of Sempringham, father of St Gilbert, as
their
< ancestor is incorrect (and have given me vast amounts of information
on
< the Jocelyn family tree - thanks again guys!!), I have been wondering
if
< I can identify the correct Jocelyn ancestor in the Domesday Book.
<
< The first firm location of the Jocelyn family, is Hyde Hall near
< Sawbridgeworth in Essex as early as about 1250 (possibly earlier
< according to one account). Their early marriages were to the "Battell
< (Battyle) family of Ongar" ca, 1226 - who appear to have be from
< Stapleford Abbots - and the Hydes of Hyde Hall ca. 1250.
<
< Assuming that they lived somewhere in the region of Sawbridgeworth ca
< 1086 and that their name was one of the many Jocelyn variants leads
me
< to Goscelin the Lorimer of Becontree in Essex.
< While this is very circumstantial evidence, I feel that Goscelin is a
< strong contender.
Tim Powys-Lybbe
<snip>
> Assuming that they lived somewhere in the region of Sawbridgeworth ca
> 1086 and that their name was one of the many Jocelyn variants leads me
> to Goscelin the Lorimer of Becontree in Essex.
>
> Goscelin had the manor of Little Ilford - now Manor Park - at Ilford in
> London on the Roding River. His land was surrounded by church owned
> properties at Barking, East & West Ham etc.
>
> Little Ilford is only a few miles by river to Stapleford Abbott and
> assuming the river was a natural highway, it would make the then
> inhabitants of the Battell estate one of his nearest neighbours
> (especially since the direct neighbours were presumably religious
> establishments). Hide Hall is only a few more miles up the river -
> about 20 miles from Little Ilford.
>
> While this is very circumstantial evidence, I feel that Goscelin is a
> strong contender.
>
> Questions:
> - Does anyone know anything about Goscelin the Lorimer?
See Keats-Rohan's 'Domesday People' p. 234 where she has:
Goscelin Lorimarius
===================
Norman, occurs in Domesday East Anglia, where he was a tenant of
Frodo, brother of Abbot Baldwin, of Ely Abbey, and he also held his
own fee as Jocelyn Lorimer. Known as Jocelyn of Ely and of Lodden.
Between 1114 and 1119 the abbot of Bury made a grant to O. the widow
of Jocelyn de Lodden, whose sons Ralph and Gilbert subsequently attest
Bury charters. According to the Ramsey Chronicle (249-50), he had a
'nepos' Ralph, brother of Brien. He was perhaps also father of
Jocelyn the clerk of Ely, a member of Nigel of Ely's household,
remembered by the monks of Ely as the thief of a valuable chalice
(Lib. El. pp. 322, 192). His heir by 1202 was Cecilia of Norton,
daughter of Christiana of Norton, (Feet of Fines Norfolk, Pipe Roll
Soc. n.s. 27, no. 381).
The fact that his heir in 1202 was Cecilia indicates that the male line
of descendants had died out.
<snip>
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
al...@mindspring.com
On Jan 7, 8:45 am, "Douglas Richardson" <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
<Snip>
John Josselyn married a Boseville
> heiress. This information is based on my own personal research which
> is not available in print.
Douglas, do you have any plans to publish this research in the near
future? Particularly the identity of the Boseville heiress?
> The Boseville family were scattered throughout England. Sir Hubert de
> Burgh, Earl of Kent, who was a contemporary of John Josselyn, named his
> ancestor, William de Boseville, in one of his charters [see S.H.F.
> Johnston "The Lands of Hubert de Burgh" in English Historical
> Review, 50 (1935): 418-432]. Earl Hubert's exact connection to the
> Boseville family has never been established.
We know Earl Hubert's first wife was a de Warenne. DD pps 341-342
lists de Bosevilles who were Warenne tenants including a William fitz
Hugh de Boseville. Purely an assumption that this is most likely the
William de Boseville that the Earl referred to. We also know that
Alice Pouchard called Hubert's brother Geoffrey her "nepos" in the
Cartulary of Creake Abbey as cited in your earlier posts on this
matter.
Pure speculation but.....
IF Earl Hubert's mother Alice was a daughter of this William de
Boseville and John Pouchard's wife Itta (parents of Alice Pouchard) was
a sister of Alice and daughter of the same William de Boseville, then
these relationships would be true. Obviously, there are other
possibilities......
Was curious if anyone had evidences that might relate to this
hypothesis?
Doug Smith
Murray Lynn
However, the names Ralph and Gilbert that you mention are interesting as
they fit with the names in the family / Sempringham story and add to my
speculation that this story pre 1200 is probably a composite of many of
the actual but unrelated Jocelyns of the time.
Does the Domesday People mention the Battells?
Regards
Murray
Murray Lynn
Thanks very much for this interesting information. John Josselyn coming
from Northamptonshire would fit with him being the father or brother
Ralph the father of the John who married Katherine Battell as according
to "A History of the County of Hertford: volume 3 (British History
Online)" on Hyde Hall:
> [Hyde Hall] appears first under the name of The Hyde and was held of
> the Earls of Essex, chief lords of the fee. Early in the 13th century
> it was in the tenure of the Jocelyn family. A Ralph Jocelyn held land
> in Easton, co. Northants, in the reign of John, but there is no
> evidence of his holding The Hyde. His son John, however, held it
> rather later.
This source appears to incorrect in connecting Ralph's son John with
Hyde Hall however, as most sources say the Hall came into the family in
the next generation, with the marriage of John's son Thomas to Maud Hyde
of Hyde Hall.
Can you connect John of Northamptonshire in with the Jocelyn family?
What sources do you have re John? It would be very interesting to see
you publish this information.
Regards
Murray
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>
John H
have "Battell" in their quarterings, ie. in quarters #3 Battell, and #4
Battell.
John H
"Tim Powys-Lybbe" <t...@powys.org> wrote in message
news:2f1f7ca...@south-frm.demon.co.uk...
Tim Powys-Lybbe
<snip>
> Does the Domesday People mention the Battells?
DP is ordered by first name, not surname and has no separate index 0 so
I have no idea.
The successor DD volume is ordered by surname or patronymic and of the
four Batailles listed there, none are given a Domesday ancestor.
Murray Lynn
Thanks for the reminder, a Josselyn researcher has given me quite a lot
of information on the (or a) shield - see my website. There must be
several versions as the one I have has 8 'quarters' only one being the
Battells, the others are Enfield (wife of the Battell), Patmere, Baude,
Chastelin, Hide and two Joscelins, see
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mlynn/16_Josselyn/FT_Josselyn_29_14.html.
While there is no solid proof in the quarterings, it is interesting to
note that the Chastelin link is supposedly a marriage to Henry Jocelyn,
father of Ralph - one generation earlier that the first name given in
the 1999 Burkes.
Kind Regards
Murray Lynn
Christchurch
New Zealand
Web Site <http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mlynn/>
Douglas Richardson
As I stated in my first reply to you, your Josselyn family descends
from John Josselyn, of Northamptonshire, who married a Boseville
heiress. It's that simple. There is no Goscelin the Lorimer connected
to this family.
Also, your Josselyn forbears have no connection whatsoever with
Joscelin de Louvain or Gilbert of Sempringham as alleged on your
website. Anyone who suggests your family has these connections has
grossly mislead you.
History and genealogy should be based on facts, not fantasy. In the
meantime, good luck in your sleuthing.
Leo van de Pas
fantasy. I have seen Murray's site and the display is very well done, all he
needs now is to make sure the facts are correct. That family has so many and
interesting descendants, I hope he will succeed in his attempts.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Murray Lynn
I didn't mean to imply anything to doubt your findings, my apologies if
that was unclear. On the contrary John Josselyn of Northamptonshire fits
well with the British History Online site's article on Hyde Hall,
placing Ralph in Northants, which I had previously doubted.
My question was simply to find out how your John fits into the "accepted
family tree" - by which I mean something along the lines of the tree
published in the 1999 Burkes - and to find more about your source of
information. As I said, going by the dates, he would seem to be brother
or father (or cousin) of Ralph?
I cannot disagree with your comment on fantasy having seen a lot of what
is published as fact in family trees on the web! However sometimes a
certain amount of speculation can lead to new avenues to explore, and
provided they are not stated as fact (I don't think that have done
this?) can lead to the truth, if only through their elimination.
The problem at the moment is that virtually every Jocelyn family history
published both on and off the web (including my own) includes the
Sempringham story, usually without question and often with blatant
errors. Having discovered "the error of my ways" thanks to Tim and Leo,
I am now simply hoping to find the point at which we can say with
reasonable certainty that the family history is factual (ca. 1250?) and
where it dissolves into speculation.
All the best
Murray
Jacqueline Schenke
ache...@gmail.com
My line runs via Josselyn, Nichols, Cushing, Baker, Ford, Harris, Chase, Carmichael (my maternal grandmother).
It's a line I've otherwise not yet had a good opportunity to research. My understanding of the ancestral lineage is from the NEHGR, which I haven't verified.
https://books.google.com/books?id=1soUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA250#v=onepage&q&f=false
Have you found it to be more or less accurate?
Thanks,
Richard