William the Conqueror - progeny thereof
Susan Swann
A few questions that have been rattling around in my system for a while....
A. Does anyone have any information on Gundred (circa 1063-27 May 1085) m.
William de Warenne, Earl of Surrey (1055-24 Jun 1088), who had issue
1. William, 2nd Earl of Surrey (1081-11 may 1138) m. Isabel (Elizabeth) de
Capet de Cripi de Vermandois (1081-13 Feb 1131), who had issue:
----a. Ada (Adela/Adelaide) (1120-1178) m. Henry of Huntingdon, Earl of
Northumberland (1115-1152), and had issue...
----b. Rainald (Reginald) (1113-1179)
----c. William, 3rd Earl of Surrey (1110-1148) m. Ala de Alecon de Tavas,
and had issue....
----d. Gundrada (1117-1166)
----e. Ralph (1115-?)
2. Edith
3. Reynald
Was she the daughter of William the Conqueror and Matilda of Flanders?
Originally, and from somewhere or other (oh the carefree impulses of a
genealogical novice), I found information which said that she was. Later, I
read that she was "a kinswoman" but not a child of William.... Could anyone
please clarify who the children of William and Matilda were. Did William
have any bastards? If Gundred is not William's daughter, what is known
about her?
B. I gather from reading various historical tomes on a variety of subjects
and locations that Geoffrey IV, Count of Anjou ("the Fair"/"Plantagent") had
some bastard children... how many are known? are their mothers known? Who
did these children grow up to become/marry? Did Geoffrey and Matilda/Maud
only have three sons? (daughters?)
C. Did Henry I only have two legitimate children by his wife, Edith Matilda
of Scotland?
I'm sure that I could come up with more questions.... (Heaven knows, there
are always going to be more questions!) but assistance with these ones would
be very much appreciated!
Best wishes,
Susan Swann
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Dear Listers,
>
> A few questions that have been rattling around in my system for a while....
>
> A. Does anyone have any information on Gundred (circa 1063-27 May 1085) m.
> William de Warenne, Earl of Surrey (1055-24 Jun 1088), who had issue
>
> 1. William, 2nd Earl of Surrey (1081-11 may 1138) m. Isabel (Elizabeth) de
> Capet de Cripi de Vermandois (1081-13 Feb 1131), who had issue:
> ----a. Ada (Adela/Adelaide) (1120-1178) m. Henry of Huntingdon, Earl of
> Northumberland (1115-1152), and had issue...
> ----b. Rainald (Reginald) (1113-1179)
> ----c. William, 3rd Earl of Surrey (1110-1148) m. Ala de Alecon de Tavas,
> and had issue....
> ----d. Gundrada (1117-1166)
> ----e. Ralph (1115-?)
> 2. Edith
> 3. Reynald
>
> Was she the daughter of William the Conqueror and Matilda of Flanders?
No. This identification is based on a late forged charter (IIRC).
> Originally, and from somewhere or other (oh the carefree impulses of a
> genealogical novice), I found information which said that she was. Later, I
> read that she was "a kinswoman" but not a child of William.... Could anyone
> please clarify who the children of William and Matilda were.
Well, lets see. They had Robert, William, Richard (dy) and Henry, plus
Adela m. Stephen of Blois, Constance m. a Breton Count (I think), and
Agatha, engaged to Alfonso VI of Leon. I probably have forgotten at
least one.
> Did William have any bastards?
None that can be proven.
> If Gundred is not William's daughter, what is known about her?
She was sister of Gherbod, Earl of Chester, and probably daughter of an
earlier Gherbod. THere is no known kinship between her and the
Conqueror, alther her husband was a kinsman of the King.
> B. I gather from reading various historical tomes on a variety of subjects
> and locations that Geoffrey IV, Count of Anjou ("the Fair"/"Plantagent") had
> some bastard children... how many are known?
I know of two.
> are their mothers known?
No.
> Who did these children grow up to become/marry?
Hamelin married the heiress of the Warennes, and became Earl. Emma
married David, King of Gwynedd. I have seen at least one other claimed
- the wife of a de Laval, but I think that was in error.
> Did Geoffrey and Matilda/Maud only have three sons? (daughters?)
Three sons sounds about right.
>
> C. Did Henry I only have two legitimate children by his wife, Edith Matilda
> of Scotland?
I think there was a son Richard who died in infancy, and probably others
we don't know about.
taf
Pavel Pokorný
Susan Swann wrote:
>
> Dear Listers,
>
> A few questions that have been rattling around in my system for a while....
>
> A. Does anyone have any information on Gundred (circa 1063-27 May 1085) m.
> William de Warenne, Earl of Surrey (1055-24 Jun 1088), who had issue
>
> 1. William, 2nd Earl of Surrey (1081-11 may 1138) m. Isabel (Elizabeth) de
> Capet de Cripi de Vermandois (1081-13 Feb 1131), who had issue:
> ----a. Ada (Adela/Adelaide) (1120-1178) m. Henry of Huntingdon, Earl of
> Northumberland (1115-1152), and had issue...
> ----b. Rainald (Reginald) (1113-1179)
> ----c. William, 3rd Earl of Surrey (1110-1148) m. Ala de Alecon de Tavas,
> and had issue....
> ----d. Gundrada (1117-1166)
> ----e. Ralph (1115-?)
> 2. Edith
> 3. Reynald
>
> Was she the daughter of William the Conqueror and Matilda of Flanders?
> Originally, and from somewhere or other (oh the carefree impulses of a
> genealogical novice), I found information which said that she was. Later, I
> read that she was "a kinswoman" but not a child of William.... Could anyone
> please clarify who the children of William and Matilda were. Did William
> have any bastards? If Gundred is not William's daughter, what is known
> about her?
>
AFAIK it is claimed that she was bastard daughter of Matilda from her
previous relationship.
> B. I gather from reading various historical tomes on a variety of subjects
> and locations that Geoffrey IV, Count of Anjou ("the Fair"/"Plantagent") had
> some bastard children... how many are known?
I know Hamelin of Anjou, who married Isabel de Warenne, heiress of
Surrey, and juris uxore became new Earl of Surrey.
are their mothers known? Who
> did these children grow up to become/marry? Did Geoffrey and Matilda/Maud
> only have three sons? (daughters?)
>
> C. Did Henry I only have two legitimate children by his wife, Edith Matilda
> of Scotland?
>
> I'm sure that I could come up with more questions.... (Heaven knows, there
> are always going to be more questions!) but assistance with these ones would
> be very much appreciated!
>
> Best wishes,
> Susan Swann
P.
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Susan Swann wrote:
> >
> > If Gundred is not William's daughter, what is known
> > about her?
> >
>
> AFAIK it is claimed that she was bastard daughter of Matilda from her
> previous relationship.
This was never well supported, basically a poor attempt to 'fix' things
without throwing out the relationship entirely. It should be rejected.
taf
D. Spencer Hines
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Forsan et haec olim meminisse juvabit." Publius Virgilius Maro
(Virgil) [70-19 B.C.] [Aeneid I, 203] Aeneas, seeking to comfort his
men as they contemplate an arduous journey to Italy, reassures them
that, "Someday, perhaps, it will be pleasant to remember all this."
Todd A. Farmerie <ta...@po.cwru.edu> wrote in message
news:3819DD...@po.cwru.edu...
<snip>
| > Originally, and from somewhere or other (oh the carefree impulses of
a
| > genealogical novice), I found information which said that she was.
Later, I
| > read that she was "a kinswoman" but not a child of William....
Could anyone
| > please clarify who the children of William and Matilda were. [Susan
Swann]
|
| Well, lets [sic] see. They had Robert, William, Richard (dy) [sic]
| (Richard was actually older than William.) and Henry, plus Adela m.
| Stephen of Blois, Constance [sic] (Constance was actually older than
| Adela.) m. a Breton Count (I think), and Agatha, engaged to Alfonso VI
| of Leon. I probably have forgotten at least one.
Actually, there were reportedly ten children in all --- four sons and
six daughters --- not seven children, as stated supra.
The three missing in the fragment supra are:
Cecilia, Abbess of Holy Trinity at Caen
Adeliza (Alice) Nun
Matilda
Folks always seem to forget the daughters.
Richard de Bernay, the second son, was allegedly killed by a stag in New
Forest, circa 1081 when he was about 26.
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
D. Spencer Hines
and domineering. He would be considered "overbearing" and "opinionated"
today, no doubt. He was reportedly russet-haired.
Matilda of Flanders, his wife, was reportedly quite small. Her casket
was opened in 1961 and she was allegedly hardly over four feet tall.
William was allegedly very faithful to her and grief-stricken at her
death in November 1083.
Jschwk
Does anyone in the group you talk with about William the Conqueror, have
anything on a sister, Countess Soeune de
Maulles who was suppose to have administered Williams estates in Suffolk?
I would be very interested to see if she is the forebearer of the name
Cadamaulle, to Cattermole which is used now.
Thank you for your time. Janet inTexas
D. Spencer Hines
Normandie, [c.1030-before1090] Comtesse d'Aumale --- sister of Guillaume
le Conquerant?
Interesting spelling you have there.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Forsan et haec olim meminisse juvabit." Publius Virgilius Maro
(Virgil) [70-19 B.C.] [Aeneid I, 203] Aeneas, seeking to comfort his
men as they contemplate an arduous journey to Italy, reassures them
that, "Someday, perhaps, it will be pleasant to remember all this."
Jschwk <jsc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991031104142...@ng-cm1.aol.com...
Jschwk
The spelling of Countess Soeur de Maulle, was sent to me, as theory, by 2
submitters, as to the surname Cattermole origin. The gentlemen says " the
Doomsday book of Suffolk 1089 mentions William's sister Countess Soer de Maulle
managing the Suffolk estates, and farm workers could have taken their surnames
from the Cademall estate, hence Kademall". The lady submitter, also mentions
the Doomsday Book 1089, "William I, 1066 had conquered so much land he had to
appoint trusted people to manage it and collect taxes. He let his sister
Countess Soeur de Maulle control most of Suffolk. A mixture of Anglo-Saxon and
Norman French various dialects could have become Ca-de Maulle or Cattermole
(that of Maulle)". I have no idea at all if the Comtesse d'Aumale is connected
to the subject, but wait with interest to find out.
I am open to any and all suggestions on the subject. The origin of the surname
Cattermole and it's many varied spellings, is of great interest to the
submitters to the Cattermole database. I thank those who have shown an interest
in my request.
Respectfully Janet in Texas
D. Spencer Hines
The word <soeur> is French for <sister>.
Had you realised that?
So Adele de Normandie, Comtesse d'Aumale was indeed <soeur> to Guillaume
'le Conquerant', William The Conqueror.
Her first husband was Enguerrand III, Comte de Pontieu. So, she might
better be referred to as Comtesse de Pontieu.
She reportedly had two other husbands [not at the same time <g>] Lambert
II, Comte de Lens; and Eudes III, Comte de Champagne et d'Aumale.
But, how do your sources get from "Soeur de Maulle" to "Cattermole"?
What's the alleged progression?
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Forsan et haec olim meminisse juvabit." Publius Virgilius Maro
(Virgil) [70-19 B.C.] [Aeneid I, 203] Aeneas, seeking to comfort his
men as they contemplate an arduous journey to Italy, reassures them
that, "Someday, perhaps, it will be pleasant to remember all this."
Jschwk <jsc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991031163824...@ng-ck1.aol.com...
Leslie Mahler
"D. Spencer Hines" wrote:
> Cheers,
>
> The word <soeur> is French for <sister>.
>
> Had you realised that?
>
> So Adele de Normandie, Comtesse d'Aumale was indeed <soeur> to
> Guillaume
> 'le Conquerant', William The Conqueror.
>
> Her first husband was Enguerrand III, Comte de Pontieu. So, she might
>
> better be referred to as Comtesse de Pontieu.
>
> She reportedly had two other husbands [not at the same time <g>]
> Lambert
> II, Comte de Lens; and Eudes III, Comte de Champagne et d'Aumale.
>
> But, how do your sources get from "Soeur de Maulle" to "Cattermole"?
>
> What's the alleged progression?
> --
>
> D. Spencer Hines
>
> Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Well said.
It should also be noted that there were no surnames in this period.
William the Conqueror had no family name.
In fact, surnames were not used until a few more centuries after the
period
under discussion.
It would be interesting to see some evidence for the supposed
connections
to his sister.
Leslie
D. Spencer Hines
Quite true. Thanks for adding that.
Paul C. Reed has also quite wisely reminded me in an e-mail that
<d'Aumale>, when sounded out in French, would sound roughly the same as
<de Maulle> --- an excellent point.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Forsan et haec olim meminisse juvabit." Publius Virgilius Maro
(Virgil) [70-19 B.C.] [Aeneid I, 203] Aeneas, seeking to comfort his
men as they contemplate an arduous journey to Italy, reassures them
that, "Someday, perhaps, it will be pleasant to remember all this."
Leslie Mahler <lma...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:381CED53...@worldnet.att.net...
D. Spencer Hines
Of course, this would not in any way tend directly to prove any sort of
genetic connection by any of these folks to William the Conqueror's
sister, Adele de Normandie, would it?
That's the sort of thing we do here on <soc.genealogy.medieval>.
<Kackyrmol> certainly puts a new blush on it.
What leads you to think that:
1. <Cattermole> and <Kackyrmol> are the same name.
2. That even if #1 were to be proven true --- a distinct
hypothetical --- that the two names equate to the same Family Tree,
i.e., that there is indeed a genetic connection between them?
Aloha,
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Forsan et haec olim meminisse juvabit." Publius Virgilius Maro
(Virgil) [70-19 B.C.] [Aeneid I, 203] Aeneas, seeking to comfort his
men as they contemplate an arduous journey to Italy, reassures them
that, "Someday, perhaps, it will be pleasant to remember all this."
Jschwk <jsc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991031205512...@ng-bk1.aol.com...
| Hello,
| I assume what my submitters are saying is that the farm persons took
on the
| name of the estate Cade, Cada, Kada, where they were working and
Maulle of the
| Countess Souer de Maulle name. My reasoning to that being, German
surnames were
| derived from the farms where the people lived and worked in the
1500's. Now I
| know that is a 400 year space, but that is how I see my submitters
| reasoning..As I said before..I am open to any and all suggestions, as
I to am
| curious as to the origin of the name which in the 1500's in Norfolk
was spelled
| Kackyrmol. Thank you to all who have had input on this subject.
| Janet in Texas
D. Spencer Hines
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Forsan et haec olim meminisse juvabit." Publius Virgilius Maro
(Virgil) [70-19 B.C.] [Aeneid I, 203] Aeneas, seeking to comfort his
men as they contemplate an arduous journey to Italy, reassures them
that, "Someday, perhaps, it will be pleasant to remember all this."
Paul C. Reed <reed...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991031232928...@ng-fa1.aol.com...
| Cattermole does not seem to be the early spelling of this surname. It
| is not a 'Visitation' family. If it is not gentry in the Tudor
| period, chances that a line can be traced earlier become rather
| remote.
This is quite interesting. It certainly concurs with many of the
ascents I've traced.
One traces a line up [back in time] from the present to the Gateway
Ancestor in that line.
If one then jumps the pond to Britain and connects with a family from
the landed gentry in the 16th Century ["Tudor Times" --- as noted by
Paul] one generally has discovered another GARD [Gateway Ancestor of
Royal Descent].
But if one cannot make the "Gentry in Tudor" [GIT] connection, one often
finds oneself in the position of the poor little piglet sucking hind
teat --- not much of the milk is coming through.
| Can you tell us who the earliest direct ancestor you have traced is?
Yes, this is one of the other $64,000,000 questions.
Many folks seem to want to start with a "Companion of the Conqueror" ---
or pick your own genealogical celebrity --- and work down to their
Grandparents [or someone else's].
Actually, they should be working on a Line of Ascent [LOA] rather than a
Line of Descent [LOD]. That way they are working from the sure and
reasonably certain to the not yet sure and reasonably certain --- at
each link in the chain of the ascent.
The folks who are working the LOD in hopes of making a connection with
"their line" are somewhat in the position of the baffled audience who
were once told by President Lyndon Baines Johnson, in a delightfully
mixed metaphor, that they needed to "grab the bull by the tail and look
him squarely in the face" --- they are on the wrong end of the animal to
be able to do that.
Cheers and Aloha,
Francisco Antonio Doria
>It should also be noted that there were no surnames in this period.
>William the Conqueror had no family name.
>In fact, surnames were not used until a few more centuries after the
>period
>under discussion.
Leslie,
We find `near surnames,' or `surnames in formation' at Genoa in the early
12th century, and in Portugal somewhat later.
Is that the case in England?
chico
Jschwk
Paul C. Reed
'Visitation' family. If it is not gentry in the Tudor period, chances that a
line can be traced earlier become rather remote.
Can you tell us who the earliest direct ancestor you have traced is?
If you believe they had their origins in Norfolk, do you know if there is an
entry for them in Walter Rye's _Norfolk Families_?
As you have probably gathered by now, the surname did exist at the time of the
Norman Conquest. Most names which derived from English placenames can only be
traced from the time of the thirteenth century, if not later.
Paul
Paul C. Reed
dropped. This should have read,
>
>As you have probably gathered by now, the surname did NOT exist at the time of
Paul C. Reed
>We find `near surnames,' or `surnames in formation' at Genoa in the early
>12th century, and in Portugal somewhat later.
>
>Is that the case in England?
>
>chico
There were some surnames that derived from Norman holdings that passed down
among families in England as early as the time of Domesday [1086]--de
Mascy/Massey and de Port [which became de St. John] are examples of such
families [see Lloyd's _Anglo-Norman Families_ for a large number of these].
There are also examples of families that took their surname from English places
at an early period. Gilbert de Segrave, son of Hereward de Segrave [living
1166], and Piers de Ros, who probably derived his name from Ros in Holderness
[living 1122], are examples of such families.
But even in established families, when younger sons settled in different
places, often they were known by the seat of their demesne holding [such as in
the family of Stafford; Henry de Newburgh/Neubourg, son of Roger de Beaumont
(son of Humphrey de Vieilles [son of Thorold de Pont-Audemer]), etc.].
In these cases it initially only meant Hugh of Such-and-such. In the
thirteenth century those surnames tended to stabilize and be passed down from
generation to generation. But even then, nobles, local tenants and villeins
may not have borne surnames which became heritable until a later period, but
have been known by--or their surname taken from--their place of residence,
their occupation [Depsenser, le Botiler], patronym [Maurice fitz Robert fitz
Harding, who became de Berkeley], nickname [Longespee is one members of this
group are very familiar with], etc.
The process was of course actually far more complicated and varied than what I
have stated above, but it presents the general gist of the process. It was not
until about 1400 that the particle "de" was dropped from surnames that derived
from placenames.
Many English historians now invariably substitute "of" for "de" in early
placenames, such as Hugh of Stafford, instead of Hugh de Stafford. I think
this is fine IF the person does indeed happen to reside at that place. But
when they reside somewhere other than the place represented by their surname I
think this practice is quite out of place (so to speak). Using "of" instead of
"de" by recent historians tends to be done much more frequently than is
appropriate (IMHO).
Many of the most notable Welsh families [residing in Wales, not those with
branches that relocated to England] did not pass on surnames from generation to
generation until the Tudor period.
Paul
Christian Feuillet
recent books for middle age people. Of course it has the same usage in
English as our French "de". The title in the nobility tended to be used as
a temporary family name carried by the heirs of the tenant until they got
their own. It was not more stable outside of Normandie as it is in your
example.
BTW, do you know why "of" or "de" are sometimes entirely dropped in
daughter's names? Any rational for this?
Christia Feuillet, in Maryland
At 09:37 AM 11/1/99 +0000, reed...@aol.com (Paul C. Reed) wrote:
>
>... [large cut] ...
>
>Many English historians now invariably substitute "of" for "de" in early
>placenames, such as Hugh of Stafford, instead of Hugh de Stafford. I think
>this is fine IF the person does indeed happen to reside at that place. But
>when they reside somewhere other than the place represented by their surname I
>think this practice is quite out of place (so to speak). Using "of"
instead of
>"de" by recent historians tends to be done much more frequently than is
>appropriate (IMHO).
>
>... [small cut] ...
>
>Paul
>
Jschwk
I want to Thank everyone for the input.
In answer to Mr. Hines questions.
First known with the name of Kakermol is 1328-1377, a latin will naming family
of 6.
Which I have not seen nor could I read it. The information has been seen by a
team member in London.
Next known person is again in a latin will for John Cattermol (a translated
version of the name) 11 March 1453 of Ringsfield, Norwich, Norfolk, England.
The database starts with William who died in 1542 in Dickleburgh, Norfolk,
England leaving land, animals, belongings and money specified for the sons who
did not inherit and the daughter to have a certain amount for life.The data
base has been a collection of bits and pieces, being put together to form a
larger picture. There are now several family lines that can be traced back to
William and his wife Agnes.
There is one of those many items that are sold to persons, that says:" the name
of Cattermole is one of the most notable of the ancient Anglo/Saxon race. A
founding race of fair haired people led by Generals/commanders Hengist and
Horsa, settling in Kent from the year 400 A.D."
In regards to the comment, " one often finds one self in the position of the
poor little piglet sucking hind teat," I try to let my submitters know that
there are no great, rich ancestors in the data that I have, but that there are
notable writers and artists.
I look forward to your input.
Janet in Texas
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Todd wrote:
> C. Did Henry I only have two legitimate children by his wife, Edith
> Matilda
> > of Scotland?
Ah, no I didn't, but I responded to someone who did.
> I was able to obtain the genealogy chart of this family from "Royal
> Genealogies" and from "Royal and Noble Genealogical Data on the Web".
> According to these sources, there were five children of Henry I &
> Matilda (dau. of Malcolm III King of Scotland). Children were Matilda
> Beauclerc (Empress Queen) , William (Duke of Normandy), Sybil, Robert
> (of Gloucester) and Richard. Supposedly Sybil married Alexander I
> (King of Scotland, son of Malcolm III).
Unfortunately, your chart appears to mix Henry's legitimate and
illegitimate children. Sybil and Robert, Earl of Gloucester were both
illegitimate children of Henry. As to Richard, Henry did have an
illegitimate of this name, but it is unclear whether this is the
individual your source had in mind. I checked one handy source (an
article on the royal progeny in the early Norman period) and this
provided just three legitimate children, William, Matilda, and a
daughter, d.y.
taf
D. Spencer Hines
What was this "handy source" --- Todd?
The legitimate daughter who died young may have been named Euphamia,
born about Jul 1101.
There seems to be some dispute about a son Richard, who reportedly
drowned in the Disaster of the Loss of the White Ship on 25 November
1120.
Some sources appear to have this Richard as a legitimate son of Henry I
and Matilda and others have him as Richard of Lincoln, a bastard, whose
Mother was Ansfride and who was reportedly betrothed to Amice de Gael.
Since Henry I has 20 Identified Bastards, 5 Possible Bastards and 1
Doubtful Bastard, this all gets rather complicated.
However, based upon the preponderance of evidence I have seen, Richard
would seem to have been illegitimate --- but highly respected and loved
by Henry I --- magnanimous and a distinguished knight, who was indeed
lost in the White Ship.
What does CP have to say?
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"There was a time when reporters wanted information, their questions
directed to an underlying event... They might not agree with you in the
end, but it was a matter of pride that they could accurately state your
view, before rejecting it...." [Now] reporters came to the story with
the lead fixed in their minds; they saw their job as proving what they
already knew. They didn't want information so much as evidence of
villainy." Michael Crichton, "Airframe" (1996); Alfred A. Knopf, New
York, p. 109.
Todd A. Farmerie <ta...@po.cwru.edu> wrote in message
news:381DB6...@po.cwru.edu...
Nathaniel Taylor
reed...@aol.com (Paul C. Reed) wrote:
>There are also examples of families that took their surname from English places
>at an early period. Gilbert de Segrave, son of Hereward de Segrave [living
>1166], and Piers de Ros, who probably derived his name from Ros in Holderness
>[living 1122], are examples of such families.
>
>But even in established families, when younger sons settled in different
>places, often they were known by the seat of their demesne holding [such as in
>the family of Stafford; Henry de Newburgh/Neubourg, son of Roger de Beaumont
>(son of Humphrey de Vieilles [son of Thorold de Pont-Audemer]), etc.].
>
>In these cases it initially only meant Hugh of Such-and-such. ...
>
>Many English historians now invariably substitute "of" for "de" in early
>placenames, such as Hugh of Stafford, instead of Hugh de Stafford. I think
>this is fine IF the person does indeed happen to reside at that place. But
>when they reside somewhere other than the place represented by their surname I
>think this practice is quite out of place (so to speak)...
Another point to keep in mind with early toponymic surnames is that they
may have represented a person's residence or holdings, OR they may have
represented the place of origin of a person who lived somewhere else. In
this case the preposition 'de' means not just 'of such-and-such' but
'originally of such-and-such', or 'from such-and-such'.
Nat Taylor
DEAN LINDBERG
referring to a younger brother or son of the family, or about his
children, etc???
Nathaniel Taylor
(Jschwk) wrote:
>Hello,
>Does anyone in the group you talk with about William the Conqueror, have
>anything on a sister, Countess Soeune de
>Maulles who was suppose to have administered Williams estates in Suffolk?
> I would be very interested to see if she is the forebearer of the name
>Cadamaulle, to Cattermole which is used now.
>Thank you for your time. Janet inTexas
According to the _Dictionary of English Surnames_, 3d, rev. ed. (Oxford,
1997), Cattermole and its variants appear early only in Suffolk, and first
around 1478 with a William 'Cakyrmoll' (for which it cites the
_Proceedings of the Suffolk Institute of Archaeology, [vol.] 12). The
Dictionary states "the late appearance of this name which seems to be
found only in Suffolk would suggest a foreign origin for it, probably
Dutch of Flemish."
It goes without saying that etymologies such as the one you suggested
above are generally the product of wishful thinking by genealogists with
no knowledge of onomastics.
Nat Taylor
Jschwk
Thank you very much Mr. Taylor for your input. All the information provided by
the other listers, as well as yours, will be sent to my submitters who inquired
about William the Conqueror and his sister as possibles leads to the origin of
the name Cattermole. There is a Thomas 1327-1377
in Norfolk. Thanks Everyone.
Janet in Texas
Nathaniel Taylor
nta...@fas.harvard.edu (Nathaniel Taylor) wrote:
>In article <19991031104142...@ng-cm1.aol.com>, jsc...@aol.com
>(Jschwk) wrote:
>
>>Does anyone in the group you talk with about William the Conqueror, have
>>anything on a sister, Countess Soeune de
>>Maulles who was suppose to have administered Williams estates in Suffolk?
>> I would be very interested to see if she is the forebearer of the name
>>Cadamaulle, to Cattermole which is used now.
>
>According to the _Dictionary of English Surnames_, 3d, rev. ed. (Oxford,
>1997), Cattermole and its variants appear early only in Suffolk, and first
>around 1478 with a William 'Cakyrmoll' (for which it cites the
>_Proceedings of the Suffolk Institute of Archaeology, [vol.] 12). The
>Dictionary states "the late appearance of this name which seems to be
>found only in Suffolk would suggest a foreign origin for it, probably
>Dutch of Flemish."
>
>It goes without saying that etymologies such as the one you suggested
>above are generally the product of wishful thinking by genealogists with
>no knowledge of onomastics.
I now see Janet's other post with the unspecified fourteenth-century
testamentary citation (which should be identified and dated) and the mid
fifteenth-century citation from Norfolk (adjacent to Suffolk). I still
believe the Dictionary, that a foreign derivation is most likely, unless
any geographic name for an estate can be found linked to (or similar to)
these early variants of 'Cakermoll' in Suffolk or Norfolk.
Nat Taylor