Extra son for Robert de Caen, Earl of Gloucester?
Leo
William, Maud, Roger, Richard and Hamon.
Someone sent me a lineage which I think has a few mistakes. I hope someone can identify some of the people mentioned and tell where they really fit in.
Robert de Caen, Earl of Gloucester
x Maud or Mabel FitzHamon
| ----------------this link I think is wrong
Philip FitzRobert of Grey 1122-
x Sedzilia de Berkeley 12135-1192
|
Aline de Grey 1159-1233 ------------ I have her as Aline de Gai
x Alan Bassett 1155-1233
|
Alice Bassett -1196 ---------------------I have a Aliva Bassett married to Richard Talbot
x John de Sandford 1164-1236
|
Hugh de Sandford 1187-1234
x Joan de Noers
|
Christiane de Sandford 1207-1242
x John du Plessis 1207-1262
Any remark will be very much appreciated.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
wjhonson
> Gerald Paget, in his Lineage and Ancestry of HRH Prince Charles, Prince of Wales, gives Robert de Caen the following children:
> William, Maud, Roger, Richard and Hamon.
>
> Someone sent me a lineage which I think has a few mistakes. I hope someone can identify some of the people mentioned and tell where they really fit in.
>
> Robert de Caen, Earl of Gloucester
> x Maud or Mabel FitzHamon
> | ----------------this link I think is wrong
> Philip FitzRobert of Grey 1122-
> x Sedzilia de Berkeley 12135-1192
> |
Philip de Gay is not known to me to have been a FitzRobert. His
birthyear is a guess without any evidence. Sedzilla (Cecily)'s
birthyear is a guess without any evidence. Their child Aline was
married *by* 1191 and died 1229/30 after having seven children, and
that's as much as we can say about chronology AFAIK. The rest appears
to be guesswork.
> Aline de Grey 1159-1233 ------------ I have her as Aline de Gai
> x Alan Bassett 1155-1233
> |
The birthyears are pure guesses. I don't think these two died in the
same year, so I'd toss that. Aline died between 1229 and 1230.
> Alice Bassett -1196 ---------------------I have a Aliva Bassett married to Richard Talbot
> x John de Sandford 1164-1236
> |
I believe they had two daughters Aline and Alice which has probably
caused a deal of confusion. Alice married Saunford, while Aline
married Drew Montagu and Richard Talbot.
> Hugh de Sandford 1187-1234
> x Joan de Noers
> |
Broken. Alice was certainly not born so early that she could have a
son in 1187.
> Christiane de Sandford 1207-1242
> x John du Plessis 1207-1262
>
> Any remark will be very much appreciated.
> Leo van de Pas
> Canberra, Australia
Subj: Re: Basset and Sandford (was Re: Trusted Sources)
Date: 9/10/05 10:52:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: paul.ma...@ozemail.com.au (Paul Mackenzie)
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
ALICE BASSET. Evidence for her marriage to John Sanford comes from a
grant to her brother Gilbert Basset of the right to present one canon,
by the prior and Canons of Blackmore dedicated to St. Laurence. The
grant refers to the late Alan, son of their late patron Sir John
Sanford, and to Sir Gilbert Basset, uncle of the same Alan, and to
Alice, wife of Sir John. The lands of John de Sanford included Aston
Sanford. In addition to Alan, Alice and John Sanford had a daughter
Cecilia and sons Gilbert, Nicholas, Roger, and Laurence de Sanford.
The four sons appear without any indication of relationship, as
witnesses to a grant to Philip. Gilbert however named his father as
John in 1233-4. Nicholas was in possession of Aston by 1242.
Estimate of birth 1150/70 is based on her husband's birth year and
NOTHING ELSE.
It is an estimate.
For evidence of the parentage of Aline de Gay, wife of Alan Basset,
direct your attention to an agreement made in King Henry II's court in
1190, regarding the division of Philip de Gay's estate, which
agreement was re-confirmed by King Henry II's son, King Richard, in
1198. A copy of the reconfirmation is provided below:
383 (2735R). Aline and Cecily de Gay. Resealing of confirmation
(Vezelay, 3rd July 1190) of agreement in Henry II's court concerning
division of inheritance from their father, Philip de Gay. Cecily is
to have all the land in Norbroch' [Northbrook], and quit claims the
rest to Aline; if either dies without legitimate issue, the other
party shall inherit.
Huius autem innovationis teste sunt Hii, Baldwin, Count of Aumale,
William Marshal, William Fitz Ralph seneschal of Normany, Warin Fitz
Gerald, Saher de Quincy. Dat' per manum E. Elien' Episcopi
Cancellarii nostri. Roche d'Orival 22nd August 1198. Seal on cords.
London, PRO, E42/314 [Reference: J.C. Holt and Richard Mortimer, Acta
of Henry II and Richard I, published as List and Index Soc., Special
Series, vol. 21, pg. 204].
- Douglas Richardson royala...@msn.com on Gen-Medieval-L Apr 2005
Aline de Gay was definitely the mother of Alan Basset's son and heir,
Gilbert Basset. In 1241 Gilbert's widow, Isabel, had the manor of
Broadtown, Wiltshire assigned to her in dower. The manor of
Broadtown, Wiltshire was part of Aline de Gay's inheritance. The
manor of Broadtown eventually fell by inheritance to Gilbert Basset's
younger brother and heir, Sir Philip Basset, and thence onto the
Despensers.
- Douglas Richardson royala...@msn.com on GEN-MEDIEVAL-
L...@rootsweb.com Apr 2005
Will Johnson
John P. Ravilious
> To: GEN-MEDIEVA...@rootsweb.com
>
> Aline de Gay was definitely the mother of Alan Basset's son and heir,
> Gilbert Basset. In 1241 Gilbert's widow, Isabel, had the manor of
> Broadtown, Wiltshire assigned to her in dower. The manor of
> Broadtown, Wiltshire was part of Aline de Gay's inheritance. The
> manor of Broadtown eventually fell by inheritance to Gilbert Basset's
> younger brother and heir, Sir Philip Basset, and thence onto the
> Despensers.
Tuesday, 8 December, 2009
Dear Leo, Will, et al.,
Certainly Philip de Gai was not a son of Robert, Earl of
Gloucester. His parents were Stephen de Gai and his wife Aline
Pipard, whose inheritance or maritagium included Wootton (later
Wootton Basset), co. Wilts.
I do have note of a son Philip attributed to Robert, Earl of
Gloucester, but have no other relevant details. If this is in fact
correct, Philip 'fitz Robert' would have likely been the namesake of
Philip de Montgomery, his mother's maternal uncle.
More importantly, the Earl of Gloucester and his wife Mabel had a
son Robert. "Robertus filius Comitis Glocestr' cognatus meus" was a
witness to a charter of Henry II concerning the grant of Conerton
[A2A, Cornwall RO, Arundell of Lanherne and Trerice, AR/20/1, courtesy
Douglas Richardson]. This Robert was mentioned in Complete Peerage
[1], and more recently Rosie Bevan established that Robert was a
legitimate son [2].
Cheers,
John
Notes
[1] CP V:686.
[2] Rosie Bevan, <Re: Richard 'Bacun', nephew of
Ranulf, Earl of Chester>, SGM, 17 Oct 2004.
taf
> On Dec 8, 12:16 pm, "Leo" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au> wrote:
>
> > Aline de Grey 1159-1233 ------------ I have her as Aline de Gai
> > x Alan Bassett 1155-1233
> > |
>
> The birthyears are pure guesses. I don't think these two died in the
> same year, so I'd toss that. Aline died between 1229 and 1230.
>
> > Alice Bassett -1196 ---------------------I have a Aliva Bassett married to Richard Talbot
> > x John de Sandford 1164-1236
> > |
>
> I believe they had two daughters Aline and Alice which has probably
> caused a deal of confusion. Alice married Saunford, while Aline
> married Drew Montagu and Richard Talbot.
>
> > Hugh de Sandford 1187-1234
> > x Joan de Noers
> > |
>
> Broken. Alice was certainly not born so early that she could have a
> son in 1187.
>
> > Christiane de Sandford 1207-1242
> > x John du Plessis 1207-1262
>
> > Any remark will be very much appreciated.
> > Leo van de Pas
> > Canberra, Australia
>
> Subj: Re: Basset and Sandford (was Re: Trusted Sources)
Just to add to this, the thread mentioned above discussed the
Sandfords and Bassets in detail, including the details of numerous
primary documents. While the Sandford siblings repeatedly witnessed
each others' acts, there is no Hugh among them.
taf