Peter de Valognes/Peter de Valence/Piers de Valoins
Leo van de Pas
Peter de Valence holds in domain Hecham, which Haldane a freeman held in the time of King Edward, as a manor, and as 5 hides. etc.
I don't know how many people know "The Domesday Book, England's Heritage, Then and Now"
edited by Thomas Hinde. On page 134 it is given that he also had property in Ashwell, in Hertfordshire. But, for me, the most interesting entry is on page 341
Valognes, Peter de. Nephew of William I; married Albreda, sister of Eudo the Steward. Sheriff of Essex and Herts in 1086. Founded Binham Priory, Norfolk. Holdings in six counties in the East.
I am sorry to say that I was not aware of this Peter/Piers de Valognes/Valoins/Valence.
Does anyone know more about him? If he was a nephew of William I, do they mean William the Conqueror? So far I have found descendants to the present (including Prince William) but not yet any in the USA.
Many thanks.
Leo van de Pas
te...@mairsphotography.com
the sister of William I, which would of course make him Williams nephew.
Terry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <leov...@netspeed.com.au>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 22, 2004 11:06 PM
Subject: Peter de Valognes/Peter de Valence/Piers de Valoins
> I.J. Sanders, in his "English Barones", published in 1960, records
(Domesday Book reference)
>
> Peter de Valence holds in domain Hecham, which Haldane a freeman held in
the time of King Edward, as a manor, and as 5 hides. et
Chris Phillips
Leo van de Pas wrote:
> I don't know how many people know "The Domesday Book, England's Heritage,
Then and Now"
> edited by Thomas Hinde. On page 134 it is given that he also had property
in Ashwell, in Hertfordshire. But, for me, the most interesting entry is on
page 341
>
> Valognes, Peter de. Nephew of William I; married Albreda, sister of Eudo
the Steward. Sheriff of Essex and Herts in 1086. Founded Binham Priory,
Norfolk. Holdings in six counties in the East.
>
> I am sorry to say that I was not aware of this Peter/Piers de
Valognes/Valoins/Valence.
> Does anyone know more about him? If he was a nephew of William I, do they
mean William the Conqueror? So far I have found descendants to the present
(including Prince William) but not yet any in the USA.
Keats-Rohan [Domesday People p. 322] has an entry on him, but says nothing
of his parentage, only that he was Norman, from Valognes, Manche. She also
argues that his wife Albreda was not the sister of Eudo the Steward/Eudo
Dapifer, but more likely the sister of Eudo vicomte de Saint-Sauveur.
In the detailed discussion of the Conqueror's brothers and sisters in
Appendix K of CP vol. 12, part 1, I can't see any mention of a Valognes
connection, though of course the known sister Adelaide/Aeliz is discussed.
Chris Phillips
John Ravilious
Dear Leo,
I'd love to know the basis for identifying Piers de Valoins as a
nephew of William I (I assume 'of England' is meant...). I saw no
such reference in I.J. Sanders, but then that provides no proof either
way.
I had recently compiled the following re: Piers de Valoins and
his immediate descendants. Hope this is of use.
Cheers,
John *
_________________________________
1 Piers de Valoins
----------------------------------------
of Benington, co. Herts.
tenant in Essex and co. Herts. at Domesday Book, 1086 (Sanders, p.
12)[1]
Domesday Book, for Hecham [Higham], Essex:
'Peter de Valence holds in domain Hecham, which Haldane a freeman held
in
the time of King Edward, as a manor, and as 5 hides. There have
always
been 2 ploughs in the demesne, 4 ploughs of the men. At that time
there
were 8 villeins, now lo; then there were 2 bordars, now 3; at both
times
4 serv woods for 300 swine, 18 acres of meadow. Then there were 2
fish
ponds and a half, now there are none. At that time there was 1 ox,
now
there are 1S cattle and 1 small horse and 18 swine and 2 hives of
bees.
At that time it was worth 69S., now 4£ 10s. When he received this
manor
he found only 1 ox, and 1 acre planted. Of those 5 hides spoken of
above,
one was held in the time of King Edward by 2 freemen, and was added
to
this manor in the time of King William. It was worth in the time of
King
Edward 10s., now 22s, and William holds this from Peter de
Valence.'[2]
Children: Roger (-ca1142)
1.1 Roger de Valoins
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1142[1]
of Bennington, co. Herts.
re: his wife:
'Agnes, wife of Roger de Valognes' [DP 284, sub Johannes nepos
Waleranni[3] ]
Spouse: Agnes fitz John
Death: aft 1184[4],[5]
Father: John fitz Richard
Children: Peter (-1158)
Robert (-1184)
Philip (-1215)
Cecily
Roger
John
Geoffrey
1.1.1 Peter de Valoins
----------------------------------------
Death: 1158, d.s.p.[1]
of Bennington, co. Herts.
Spouse: Gundreda de Warenne
Death: 1224[6]
Father: Reginald de Warenne (-1179)
Mother: Alice de Wormegay (->1179)
1.1.2 Robert de Valoins
----------------------------------------
Death: 1184[1]
of Bennington, Sacomb , and Hertingfordbury, Herts, Higham, Essex,
Great
Fakenham and Bacton, Suffolk & c.'[5]
Spouse: Hawise
Children: Gunnor
1.1.2.1 Gunnor de Valoins
----------------------------------------
first wife[7], and heiress of her father
CP Vol V (Essex), pp. 127 (under Geoffrey de Mandeville, re: Maud) and
132
(under William de Mandeville, re: Christine) states they were the
lst and
2nd daughters respectively
' of Robert Fitz Wauter, of Woodham Walter, Essex, by his 1st wife
(to whom she was coh.), Gunnor, da. and h. of Robert de Valoines,
of
Bennington, Sacomb , and Hertingfordbury, Herts, Higham, Essex,
Great
Fakenham and Bacton, Suffolk & c.'[5]
she m. lstly Durand de Osteil,
2ndly Robert fitz Walter (Sanders, p. 12)[1]
Spouse: Robert fitz Walter
Death: 9 Dec 1235[5]
Father: Walter fitz Robert (-1198)
Mother: Maud de Lucy
Children: Christian (-1232)
Maud (-<1213)
1.1.2.1.1 Christian fitz Robert
----------------------------------------
Death: 1232, d.s.p.[7]
2nd daughter, and coheiress of her mother
her heir was her half-brother Walter FitzRobert[7]
she m. 1stly William de Mandeville,
2ndly Raymond de Burgh[7]
Spouse: William FitzGeoffrey
Death: bef 3 Jun 1227, d.s.p.[5]
Father: Geoffrey FitzPiers (-1213)
Mother: Beatrix de Say (-<1197)
1.1.2.1.2 Maud fitz Walter
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 26 Jan 1213[5]
1st daughter, and coheiress of her mother
lst wife of Geoffrey de Mandeville[5]
Spouse: Geoffrey de Mandeville
Death: 23 Feb 1215, London (jousting accident)[5]
Father: Geoffrey FitzPiers (-1213)
Mother: Beatrix de Say (-<1197)
1.1.3 Philip de Valoins
----------------------------------------
Death: 5 Nov 1215
of Panmure and Bervie, co. Forfar
relocated to Scotland 1165 or before (Sanders, pp. 12-13)[1]
chamberlain to the King of Scots
'Philippo de Valoniis camerario' , witness to confirmation by King
William I to Adam, son of Odo the steward, the grant made to Odo by
Gilchrist, the abbot, and the convent of the culdees of St. Andrews,
Forfar (c. 1194).
Wilielmus dei gratia Rex Scotorum, Episcopis, Abbatibus, Comitibus,
Baronibus, justiciis, vicecomitibus, ministris et omnibus probis
hominibus totius terre sue, clericis et laicis, salutem. Sciant
presentes et futuri me concessisse et hac carta mea confirmasse Ade
filio Odonis Senescaldi donationem illam quam Gilchrist' abbas et
conventus kyldeorum de Sancto Andrea [fecerunt],1 predicto2 Odoni
dapifero nostro3 de Kynkel et Petsprochyn et Petkynninn. Tenendum
sibi et heredibus suis de predictis kyldeis et ecclesia eorum, per
rectas divisas suas et cum omnibus ad predictas terras juste
pertinentibus,
in feodo et hereditate, ita libere et quiete, plenarie et
honorifice, sicut
carta prefati abbatis et conventus kyldeorum testatur, salvo
servitio meo.
Testibus, Comite Duncano justicia, Ricardo de prebenda clerico meo,
Philippo
de Valoniis camerario ' [8]
Children: William (-1219)
1.1.3.1 William de Valoins
----------------------------------------
Death: 1219[1]
of Panmure, co. Forfar
Chamberlain of Scotland[5]
Spouse: Loretta de Quincy
Father: Saier IV de Quincy (~1155-1219)
Mother: Margaret de Beaumont (-1234)
Children: Lora (-ca1272)
Christiana
Isabel (-1253)
1.1.3.1.1 Lora de Valoins
----------------------------------------
Death: ca Apr 1272[1]
coheiress of parents, and of cousin Gunnora de Valoins
(Sanders, pp. 12-13)[1]
Spouse: Henry de Baliol
Death: bef 1247[1]
Marr: bef 1233[5]
Children: Guy (-1265) de Baliol (dsp)
Alexander (-<1311) de Baliol, of Cavers (m. Isabel de Chilham)
1.1.3.1.2 Christiana de Valoins
----------------------------------------
coheiress of parents, and of cousin Gunnora de Valoins (Sanders, pp.
12-13)[1]
Spouse: Peter de Maune
Death: aft 1256[1]
Children: Henry
1.1.3.1.3 Isabel de Valoins
----------------------------------------
Death: 1253[1]
coheiress of parents, and of cousin Gunnora de Valoins (Sanders, pp.
12-13)[1]
Spouse: David Comyn
Children: William (-1283) Comyn of Kilbride, Lanark.
1.1.4 Cecily de Valoins[5]
----------------------------------------
or Cicely[5]
as to her identification as a daughter of Roger de Valoins and Agnes
fitz
John,
Rosie Bevan wrote:
'About the identity of Cecily, abstracts of charters in the PRO point
to further Valognes links.
PRO E 40/3699
Grant by Agnes de Waloniis, to Gunnora de Essex', her niece and foster
child, of all the land and fee which she holds of the bishopric of Ely
and
of Roger de Thorn, viz. Westley, Fulburn and Feversam, which William
Delmaneir holds, and the land called 'the land of the small hall;' to
be
held by the service of two knights, which the said William will
perform, and
a sparrowhawk yearly.
(Twelfth Century)
PRO E 40/3958
Grant by Peter, the prior, and the convent of Binham, to Gunnora de
Estsexia, for her life, or until she takes the veil, of land in
Westleia
granted to them, in frank almoin, by Lady Agnes de Valoniis, and
Robert de
Valoniis, her son. Witnesses:- John, the chaplain of the countess,
Robert de
Ver, Geoffrey de berleia, and others (named): [Camb. Twelfth century.
The grant by the prior of the convent of Binham, Norfolk, which Peter
de
Valognes founded about 1107, points to the identification of Lady
Agnes de
Valognes as Agnes, sister of Payn and Eustace fitz John and widow of
Roger
de Valognes d. 1141 of Benington, Herts., and mother of his sons and
heirs,
Peter d.s.p.1158, and Robert d.1184. Because the gift is made with the
assent of Robert, the charter would appear to date after the death of
her
eldest son in 1158 and
probably after 1163 when the Essex family lost its vast fortune. Agnes
was
trying to provide for a younger daughter of the family. I would also
suspect
that the interpretation of the word 'niece' is derived from the Latin
neptis, which was also used to mean granddaughter.
.................
'Taking the Valognes links into consideration, a reasonable conclusion
is
that Cecilia was the daughter of Roger and Agnes de Valognes. This
would
suggest that Gunnor has been misidentified as the daughter of Robert
de
Essex by Keats-Rohan in DD 451, but was actually the daughter of Henry
and
Cecilia de Essex, as well as the sister of Agnes, wife of Aubrey de
Vere.
Onomastically it is a good match - Agnes the first born daughter was
named
for Cecily's mother and Gunnor the second daughter was named for
Henry's
mother.'[9]
re: her husband, Henry of Essex:
of Raleigh and Haughley, co. Essex
supporter of King Stephen:
'...H. de Essex' ...', witness to Stephen's confirmation of gift by
William de Warenne
'...the King's constable....'
' He forfeited his vast estates in 1163, when he was defeated in
single
combat by Robert de Montfort, who had accused him of treason...'
[CP Vol. X, Oxford, p. 206n, citing R. de Diceto and R. de Torigny]
[5]
Spouse: Henry of Essex
Death: aft 1163[5]
Father: Robert fitz Sweyn of Essex (-<1129)
Mother: Gunnora le Bigod
Children: Agnes (ca1152->1194)
Henry (-<1194)
Hugh (->1194)
Robert
Gunnora
1.1.4.1 Agnes of Essex
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1152[5]
Death: aft 26 Dec 1194[5]
Burial: Colne priory, Essex[5]
3rd wife of Aubrey de Vere[5]
her maritagium included land in Stoke (CP Vol X, Oxford - p. 207n)[5]
possibly also had 5 knights' fees in Haughley, Essex as her
maritagium:
'She was holding 5 fees of the honour of
Haughley in 1206 in her widowhood, possibly representing her marriage
portion (which had probably been arranged before her father's
downfall). As
the Haughley barony consisted of 50 knights' fees and the Rayleigh
barony
had consisted of about 48-58, [Sanders 120, 139], this is a very small
proportion of the total. Most of it remained in the king's hands after
confiscation, although in 1205 Gilbert Stanford (Sanford?) answered
for 13
fees "a sixth part" of the honor of
Henry de Essex and four and a half fees of the honour of Haughley [Red
Book
of the Exchequer, p.748].'[9]
Spouse: Aubrey de Vere[10], (1st) Earl of Oxford
Death: 26 Dec 1194[11]
Birth: ca 1110[5]
Father: Aubrey de Vere (<1090-1141)
Mother: Adeliza de Clare (-ca1163)
Marr: ca 1162[11]
Children: Aubrey (-<1214)
Ralph (-<1214)
Robert (>1164-<1221)
Henry (-<1221)
Cecily
1.1.4.1.1 Aubrey de Vere
----------------------------------------
Death: bef Oct 1214[5]
Occ: Earl of Oxford
2nd Earl of Oxford
Spouse: Isabel de Bolebec
Birth: 1175[5]
Death: ca 1206, d.s.p.[5]
Father: Walter de Bolebec (-<1185)
1.1.4.1.2 Ralph de Vere
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1214, d.s.p.[5]
evidently, 2nd son[5]
1.1.4.1.3 Robert de Vere
----------------------------------------
Birth: aft 1164
Death: bef 25 Oct 1221[5]
Burial: Hatfield Priory
Occ: Earl of Oxford
of Hedingham and Great Addington, Northants.
3rd Earl of Oxford, heir to his brother Aubrey (d. 1214)
Surety of the Magna Carta [11]
Spouse: Isabel de Bolebec
Death: 3 Feb 1245[5]
Father: Hugh de Bolebec, of Whitchurch, Bucks.
Marr: aft 1205[5]
Children: Hugh (~1210-<1263) de Vere, 4th Earl of Oxford
Eleanor, m. Ralph Gernon
1.1.4.1.4 Henry de Vere[5]
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 25 Oct 1221[5]
his brother Robert, Earl of Oxford was a benefactor of Oseney Abbey
'...for his salvation and the salvation of the soul of his brother
Henry
de Vere..'[5]
1.1.4.1.5 Cecily de Vere
----------------------------------------
identification not verified
Spouse: William le Blount, of Ixworth, Suffolk
Birth: ca 1185[1]
Death: 1228[1]
Father: Hubert le Blount (ca1165-ca1188)
Mother: NN
Children: Rohese
Agnes (-<1264)
William (-1264)
1.1.4.2 Henry of Essex
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 21 Mar 1194, d.s.p.[12]
'...mentioned in 2 charters of Henry of Essex confirming the
foundation
of Monks Horton (Add.MS [British Library] 5516, fo.3).'[12]
evidently did not succeed his father (see under brother Hugh of Essex)
1.1.4.3 Hugh of Essex
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 21 Mar 1194[12]
of North Weald, Essex
evidently inherited the manor of North Weald, Essex from his
mother[12]
'Hugh, son of Henry of Essex' , confirmed a gift by his mother
Cecilia
(unknown date), and his brother Henry (1186) to St. Mary Clerkenwell
of
the church of North Weald [confirmed by Richard fitzNeale, bishop
of
London on the same day] - R. Bevan, citing W.O. Hassall, Cartulary
of
St. Mary Clerkenwell, (Camden Third Series; LXXI, 1949) nos.
27-30[12]
Spouse: NN
Children: Henry (-<1268)
Hugh
1.1.4.3.1 Henry of Essex
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1268, d.s.p.[12]
of North Weald, Essex
evidently d.s.p., succeeded by brother Hugh[12]
1.1.4.3.2 Hugh of Essex
----------------------------------------
of North Weald, Essex
'Hugh son of Hugh de Essex', granted North Weald, Essex to Philip
Basset
and Ela Countess of Warwick, his wife ' for their lives from him
and the
heirs of his body', 1267/8[12]
Letters patent of Edward I., dated 4 Jan 1269/70,
' approving the grant made by Roger le Bygod, Earl of Norfolk and
Marshal
of England, and Alina his wife, daughter and heir of the late Philip
Basset, to Hugh de Essex of the manor of Toleshunt; which grant has
been
made to remove the ambiguity in a demise of Northwelde manor made by
the
said Hugh to Philip Basset in the latter's lifetime, and in order
that
the said manor of Northwelde may remain to the Earl and Alina
without
challenge of Hugh or his heirs.
Winchester, 4 January, 8 Edward I' - PRO, E 40/753[12]
Children: Baldwin
Anne
1.1.4.4 Robert of Essex
----------------------------------------
clerk
'...mentioned in 2 charters of Henry of Essex confirming the
foundation
of Monks Horton (Add.MS [British Library] 5516, fo.3).'[12]
1.1.4.5 Gunnora of Essex
----------------------------------------
'Gunnora de Essex'
identification as theorised by Rosie Bevan (see
discussion under mother Cecily):
'Taking the Valognes links into consideration, a reasonable conclusion
is
that Cecilia was the daughter of Roger and Agnes de Valognes. This
would
suggest that Gunnor has been misidentified as the daughter of Robert
de
Essex by Keats-Rohan in DD 451, but was actually the daughter of Henry
and
Cecilia de Essex, as well as the sister of Agnes, wife of Aubrey de
Vere.
Onomastically it is a good match - Agnes the first born daughter was
named
for Cecily's mother and Gunnor the second daughter was named for
Henry's
mother.'[9]
1.1.5 Roger de Valoins
----------------------------------------
1.1.6 John de Valoins
----------------------------------------
1.1.7 Geoffrey de Valoins
----------------------------------------
' Geoffrey de Valoines of Sutton, Yorks., and Great
Saling, Essex was younger brother of Robert de Valoines, holder of the
Valoines barony and son of Agnes, sister of Eustace fitz John. In
1157
Geoffrey was in the wardship of 'Warin nepos Estachii filii Johis' as
appears in the pipe rolls [Joseph Hunter (ed.), 'The Great Rolls of
the Pipe
for the second, third and fourth years of the reign of King Henry the
Second
1155, 1156, 1157, 1158'. (London, 1844) p.147]. He married Emma de
Bulmer
before 1163, [EYC II p.128] and held 4 fees of William Fossard in
Wilton,
and other places in Cleveland, and Sheriff Hutton, and one fee of
William
Percy [EYC II p.331]. He was also guardian of William, son and heir of
Bertram de Bulmer. Farrer assumed that when Geoffrey died in 1169,
that he
died without issue. This is not correct for around 1167 Geoffrey and
Emma
produced a son and heir named Henry, who is mentioned in the 1186
Rotuli
Dominabus (p. 80), aged 18, and in the king's wardship per Hugh de
Morewick,
because the lord of the fee of Great Saling, William de Vescy, was in
his
minority. '[13]
Spouse: Emma de Bulmer
Death: bef 1209, d.s.p.[5]
Father: Bertram de Bulmer (-1166)
Mother: Emma Fossard (-1167)
Children: Henry (-<1191)
1.1.7.1 Henry de Valoins
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1191, d.s.p.[13]
1. I. J. Sanders, "English Baronies: A Study of Their Origin and
Descent,
1086-1327," Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1960.
2. "Primary Sources: English Manorial Documents," E. P. Cheyney, tr.,
http://www.shsu.edu/~his_ncp/Manor.html
from "English Manorial Documents," Translations and Reprints from
the
original Sources of European History,, E. P. Cheyney, tr., vol. 3,
no. 5,
(Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania, 1907), pp. 3-32,
includes
extracts from Domesday Book (Valoins).
3. Katherine S. B. Keats-Rohan, "Domesday People," The Boydell Press,
1999,
Vol. I: A Prosopography of Persons Occurring in English Documents
1066-1166, cites Robert de Torigni, Interpolations to Gesta
Normannorum
Ducum of Guillaume of Jumieges, (ed. van Houts, ii, 270) and
identification of Gilbert fitzRichard as uncle of Meen, seigneur
de
Fougeres (Rouleau Mortuaire du B. Vital abbe de Savigni, edition
phototypique par L. Delisle Paris (1909), titre no. 182).
4. Rosie Bevan, "Re: Essex/Valognes/Fitz John," Apr 24, 2003,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com, cites Domesday Descendants, 450 and
686
(re: Hamo de St. Clare).
5. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage,"
The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and
the
United Kingdom.
6. Chris Phillips, "Re: Richard de Curcy of Newenham, Oxon - Same as
Nuneham Courtenay?," Jul 28, 2003, GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com,
cites VCH Oxfordshire vol. 5, pp. 237-240 re: Curci family and
manor
of Newenham.
7. Douglas Richardson, "FitzWalter," September 8, 2002, paper copy:
library
of John Ravilious, text, line of descent from Ida Longespee,
daughter of
William Longespee, Knt. [or his father William, Earl of Salisbury]
and
her husband Walter fitz Robert, of Woodham Walter, Essex & c. (d.
before
10 Apr 1258).
8. D.A.Bullough and R.L.Storey, eds., "The Study of Medieval Record,
Essays
in honour of Kathleen Major," 'The Early Charters of the Family of
Kinninmonth of that Ilk', by G. W. S. Barrow,
http://sadko.ncl.ac.uk/~ndjk/Personal/Scotland/Origins/Charters.htm
p. 6 = King William I confirms to Adam, son of Odo the steward,
the
grant made to Odo by Gilchrist, the abbot, and the convent of the
culdees of St. Andrews, as in No. 2. Forfar (c. 1194).
9. Rosie Bevan, "Re: Essex/Valognes/Fitz John," Apr 18, 2003,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com, cites Sanders 120, 139 and Red Book
of
the Exchequer, p.748 re: Agnes fitz John and the Valoins family,
as
well as PRO E 40/3699 and PRO E 40/3958 concerning Gunnora de
Essex,
'neptis' of Agnes fitz John.
10. Stewart Baldwin, "Oldest Female Line?," Nov 20, 1996,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com.
11. Frederick L. Weis, Th. D., "The Magna Carta Sureties, 1215,"
Baltimore:
Gen Pub Co., 5th ed., 1997 (W. L. Sheppard Jr & David Faris).
12. Rosie Bevan and Cris Nash, "Re: Essex/Valognes/Fitz John," Apr 23,
2003
(and previous), GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com, cite Complete Peerage,
vol.10, p.206; Sanders p.120, 139;, Domesday Descendants,
p.449-451,
and prior contributions, by Chris Phillips on 15 March 2001.
13. Rosie Bevan, "Re: Essex/Valognes/Fitz John," 17 May 2004, cites
evidence in EYC XI p. 186, EYV II no. 1110, 1186 Rotuli Dominabus
(p. 80),, and others.
* John P. Ravilious
leov...@netspeed.com.au ("Leo van de Pas") wrote in message news:<007901c44083$b1b8fac0$c3b4fea9@email>...
Anne Gilbert
Gee. King William sure seems to have had an awful lot of "nephews".
Anne G
<te...@mairsphotography.com> wrote in message
news:001301c44086$dd538490$6601a8c0@Terry...
te...@mairsphotography.com
brothers, not nearly as large as the average medieval family, have 21 nieces
and nephews, kinda puts it in perspective don't it.
Terry
----- Original Message -----
Doug Smith
Wonderful summary. Possible additions to children of Piers de Valoines:
1. Muriel who married William de Bachetone and Hubert II de Munchensey.
DP I, pps 256-257, DD, pps 294, 757-760. CP IX: 411-413.
2. nn who married Alfred of Attleborough.
DP I, p 140, HKF p 393, DD, p863.
3. William
According to DD it appears Piers had two brothers as well.
Doug Smith
John Ravilious
Hello Doug,
Thanks for the kind words, and those additions.
Is there any indication in the Munchensy account (DD) whether the
issue of Hubert II de Munchensy were by Muriel de Valoins?
Thanks for those references.
Cheers,
John
al...@mindspring.com (Doug Smith) wrote in message news:<4fad4bf0.04052...@posting.google.com>...
Doug Smith
> Tuesday, 25 May, 2004
>
>
> Hello Doug,
>
> Thanks for the kind words, and those additions.
>
> Is there any indication in the Munchensy account (DD) whether the
> issue of Hubert II de Munchensy were by Muriel de Valoins?
>
> Thanks for those references.
>
> Cheers,
>
> John
>
>
DP I: 256-257:
Hubert married 1) nn dauf. of Godric (CPIX: 414-418) son of Aslac.
1. Gilbert
2. Hubert III
3. Warine
married 2nd Muriele Valoines
4. Roger I
5. Geoffrey
6. Hugh
ADRIANC...@aol.com
For what it's worth I find in my notes the following which I think was from
`History of Hertfordshire' by John Edwin Cussans. I don't even know if this is
the same guy who is under discussion.
THE MANOR [Northaw, Hertfordshire]
At the time of the Conquest this Manor belonged to the Abbot and
Monks of St. Albans, by whom it was granted to Peter de Valence, for
the term of the life of the Abbot; but on the death of the Abbot, in
1093, Peter refused to give up possession as did Roger, his son, and
Peter, his grandson, who successively held it. ......
regards,
Adrian
Rosie Bevan
Thanks for posting this descent. I've made some additional comments below.
At the time of the Domesday collation in 1086, Peter held the position of
sheriff of the counties of Essex and Hertfordshire, combined for the
purposes of administration by the Exchequer, and he farmed the boroughs of
Havering and Hertford. He had acted in the capacity of sheriff periodically
from about 1070-1076. Peter was granted lands in six counties
(Hertfordshire, Cambridgeshire, Norfolk, Suffolk, Essex and Lincolnshire),
the caput of which he made Benington, Hertfordshire, which had been the head
of the lordship of Aelmar, his disposessed Saxon predecessor. It included a
park for beasts of the chase, and here he, or his son, built a castle. There
is a hint in the Domesday Book to suggest that Peter may have profited by
the forfeiture of Ralph de Gael in Norfolk in 1075, which may explain why
although his caput was in Benington in Hertfordshire, his most valuable
lands were in Norfolk, the latter being a later grant.
Peter de Valoines and Albreda had another son called William, and he appears
to have been their son and heir but died during the life of his father
without issue. He appears in the foundation charter of Binham priory before
his brother Roger.
Peter de Valoines appears to have had two daughters. Muriel, married first
possibly Theodoric, brother of Walter the Deacon [DP 427]. Theodoric appears
as a tenant of Peter de Valoines at Domesday in Saxlingham, Norfolk and may
be the same as Theoderic Pointel in Witham, Essex as appears in the Domesday
Book. (Grimbald who attested the Binham charter of Peter de Valoines
[Monasticon Anglicanum, v. 3, p.345] was possibly the same who was tenant
of Theoderic Pointel in Domesday Essex [DD 1080]). By her first husband,
Muriel had a son William de Bacton, (also identifiable as 'William filio
Theodoric', signatory to the Binham charter), who sold his inheritance of 13
knights' fees given by and held of Everard, bishop of Norwich to his uncle
Roger de Valoines. This was later (1156-62) confirmed to Robert, son of
Roger de Valoines by a royal charter by Henry II, witnessed by Philip de
Valoines, Henry de Essex, the elder, and Henry de Essex, the younger at
Rouen [Barbara Dodwell (ed), 'The Charters of Norwich Cathedral Priory',
(Pipe Roll Society, 1974), part 1, no. 79]. Muriel married secondly Hubert
de Munchensy (Monte Caniso) as his second wife [DP 257], a benefactor of
Eye, Thetford and Colne priories, by whom she had Roger, Geoffrey and Hugh
[CP IX p.412 notes (b) and (c]. Widowed before 1120, Muriel later became a
nun at Thetford priory of which she had been a benefactor by granting land
in Rushworth, part of her marriage portion, when her son Hugh was made a
monk there. The grant was confirmed by William de Bacheton, Roger de
Monchensey, her brother Roger de Valoines and by his son Piers [Farrer HKF 3
393].
The other daughter is unnamed but identified by Keats-Rohan as wife of
Alfred or Alured of Attleborough, co-sheriff in Essex between 1101-1112, for
the reason that Adam son of Alfred [DD 863/864], is named as grandson of
Peter de Valognes, and gave land in Besthorpe to Wymondham priory. Adam had
a brother called Roger. Yseldis, granddaughter of Alfred, also gave land in
Besthorpe, in the soke of Buckenham near Attleborough [DP 140].
You have for Christine that her heir was Walter fitz Robert. This is not
accurate for anything which passed from her mother Gunnor de Valoines.
Tenements held in dower by Gundred widow of Peter de Valoines II in
Dersingham, Norfolk, had been awarded to Walter fitz Robert on Christine's
death, either mistakenly or collusively, but in 1234 Christian's heirs,
brought a suit against Walter in the curia regis, which they won because the
lands had descended via Gunnor de Valoines, and Walter was son of Robert
fitz Walter by another wife, " Postea coram domino rege apud Westmonasterium
factum est judicium. Quia predicta terra descendit eidem Cristiane de
predicto Roberto avo suo ex parte matris et iste Walterus est frater ipsius
Cristiane tantum ex parte patris ex altera uxore..."[CRR XV no.1432].
It is possible that Roger de Valoines and Agnes had another daughter named
Christina who is listed amongst the abbesses of Barking and was buried
there, "Dame Christine de Valoyns gist en mylieu del chapitre en le pere du
marbre." [Monasticon Anglicanum, v.1 p.441]. Alice, sister of Agnes wife of
Roger de Valoines, is known to have been a former abbess there in 1137.
Cheers
Rosie
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Ravilious" <the...@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 11:25 PM
Subject: Re: Peter de Valognes/Peter de Valence/Piers de Valoins
Peter Stewart
> Tuesday, 25 May, 2004
>
>
> Hello Doug,
>
> Thanks for the kind words, and those additions.
>
> Is there any indication in the Munchensy account (DD) whether the
> issue of Hubert II de Munchensy were by Muriel de Valoins?
Yes - on pp. 593-594 Keats-Rohan ascribes three sons to them, Geoffrey,
Hugo and Roger. She calls the father Hubert I, and also gives him (p.
594) a son Hubert II by a first wife.
This is evidently a mistake caused by confusion over numbering. GH
Fowler [in 'Montchensi of Edwardstone and some kinsmen', _Miscellanea
Genealogica et Heraldica_ fifth series 9 (1935-37)] stated definitely
that Roger was named as son of Hubert (whom he numbered V) and Muriel
(p. 6, citing BM Landsowne 229, folio 146v) and that he was married by
1168, while the next Hubert (VI) was son of Roger and had lately come of
age in 1185 (i.e. his parents were married some years before 1168).
Fowler did not record any marriage for his Hubert V (Keats-Rohan's
Hubert I) other than to Muriel. His father, Fowler's Hubert I, was also
the father of Hugo, who married Alice de Stoke and was apparently taken
by Keats-Rohan to be a son of his own brother by a fictitious first wife.
Fowler's genealogy is tabulated on pp. 9-10 of his article.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
<snip>
> Muriel married secondly Hubert
> de Munchensy (Monte Caniso) as his second wife [DP 257], a benefactor of
> Eye, Thetford and Colne priories, by whom she had Roger, Geoffrey and Hugh
> [CP IX p.412 notes (b) and (c]. Widowed before 1120, Muriel later became a
> nun at Thetford priory of which she had been a benefactor by granting land
> in Rushworth, part of her marriage portion, when her son Hugh was made a
> monk there.
Another disagreement between Keats-Roahs and Fowler (see my previous
post) relates to this Hugo, son of Hubert and Muriel.
Keats-Rohan stated (DD p. 594) that he was father of Stephen and Hubert,
while Fowler only noted that he was a monk at Thetford - Stephen and
Hubert according to him were sons of this Hugo's paternal uncle Hugo I
by Alice de Stoke. The chronology and references given by Fowler appear
to confirm his view, but I haven't been able to check the citations.
Peter Stewart
Gordon Kirkemo
I've been following this discourse with great interest, but find myself a
little confused by your nomenclature. You identify two wives for Hubert II
de Munchensy: (1) NN daughter of Godric and (2) Muriel Valoines. Further, a
Hubert III is proposed below.
As I read through DP and DD, I find a Hubert de Munchensy identified in DP
(pp. 256-257) with the same wives you give to Hubert II, and no father
identified. In DD (p.594), I find Hubert II, son of Hubert I by his first
wife. As there is no reference made of a Hubert I in DD, I assumed this was
a reference to the Hubert identified in DP. Further, the DD citation does
not mention a Hubert III either in the description for Hubert II or as a
separate entry.
Finally in DD under Willelm Blund (p. 179), K-R seems to assign a Munchensy
wife to Willelm. She gives no name, but indicates the wife was the daughter
of Hubert de "Montcanisy." Nowhere do I see this daughter assigned to
either of the Huberts that are identified by her. This Willelm is said to
have left a minor son (Hubert) who came of age in 1186 suggesting a birth
date of c. 1165. Assuming the Munchensy daughter is the mother (not clear
although no other wives are identified), perhaps we can assume she was born
sometime before 1150. This would seem to be too late for her to be a
daughter of Hubert I (as identified by K-R), and she is not mentioned in
reference to Hubert II. Your listings of children for Hubert II also do not
include an unnamed daughter. As you suggest a Hubert III, might I ask if
any of his family relations are known? Could he be the father, and if so,
is the mother known?
I do not know if it is helpful, but Carl Boyer ("Medieval English Ancestors
of Certain Americans") identifies the unnamed daughter as Sarah, daughter of
Hubert de Munchensy.
Thanks for any assistance you can provide.
Gordon Kirkemo
-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Smith [mailto:al...@mindspring.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 3:45 PM
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Peter de Valognes/Peter de Valence/Piers de Valoins
DP I: 256-257:
married 2nd Muriele Valoines
______________________________
Peter Stewart
> Doug, John, Peter, and All:
>
> I've been following this discourse with great interest, but find myself a
> little confused by your nomenclature. You identify two wives for Hubert II
> de Munchensy: (1) NN daughter of Godric and (2) Muriel Valoines. Further, a
> Hubert III is proposed below.
According to GH Fowler, op cit:
Hubert I de Montchensi, tenant and under-tenant in Suffolk 1086; occurs
1115, ? 1122 married (firstly?) N, daughter of Asard, son of Aslak,
under-tenant in 1086; (secondly?) N, daughter of Godric, dapifer regis,
sheriff of Norfolk & Suffolk.
The Hubert who married Muriel de Valoignes was his son by one or other
of these wives. Fowler numbered him Hubert V, in sequence with the
Huberts descended from his elder brother [and to Gordon & Rosie, my
apologies, I left out Hubert II in the file I sent off-list: he was a
younger brother of Stephen, a son of Hugo & Alice de Stokes].
Keats-Rohan evidently conflated father and son, Huberts I and V as
Fowler numebred them, at some point in her research but not throughout.
> As I read through DP and DD, I find a Hubert de Munchensy identified in DP
> (pp. 256-257) with the same wives you give to Hubert II, and no father
> identified. In DD (p.594), I find Hubert II, son of Hubert I by his first
> wife. As there is no reference made of a Hubert I in DD, I assumed this was
> a reference to the Hubert identified in DP. Further, the DD citation does
> not mention a Hubert III either in the description for Hubert II or as a
> separate entry.
>
> Finally in DD under Willelm Blund (p. 179), K-R seems to assign a Munchensy
> wife to Willelm. She gives no name, but indicates the wife was the daughter
> of Hubert de "Montcanisy." Nowhere do I see this daughter assigned to
> either of the Huberts that are identified by her. This Willelm is said to
> have left a minor son (Hubert) who came of age in 1186 suggesting a birth
> date of c. 1165. Assuming the Munchensy daughter is the mother (not clear
> although no other wives are identified), perhaps we can assume she was born
> sometime before 1150. This would seem to be too late for her to be a
> daughter of Hubert I (as identified by K-R), and she is not mentioned in
> reference to Hubert II. Your listings of children for Hubert II also do not
> include an unnamed daughter. As you suggest a Hubert III, might I ask if
> any of his family relations are known? Could he be the father, and if so,
> is the mother known?
>
> I do not know if it is helpful, but Carl Boyer ("Medieval English Ancestors
> of Certain Americans") identifies the unnamed daughter as Sarah, daughter of
> Hubert de Munchensy.
Fowler didn't mention either the wife of William Blund or this Sarah. As
he has seven Huberts altogether, in two lines of descent from Hubert I
living in 1086, it is difficult to discuss them in relation to
Keats-Rohan's numbering without redoubling her confusion.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
<snip>
> Finally in DD under Willelm Blund (p. 179), K-R seems to assign a Munchensy
> wife to Willelm. She gives no name, but indicates the wife was the daughter
> of Hubert de "Montcanisy." Nowhere do I see this daughter assigned to
> either of the Huberts that are identified by her. This Willelm is said to
> have left a minor son (Hubert) who came of age in 1186 suggesting a birth
> date of c. 1165. Assuming the Munchensy daughter is the mother (not clear
> although no other wives are identified), perhaps we can assume she was born
> sometime before 1150. This would seem to be too late for her to be a
> daughter of Hubert I (as identified by K-R), and she is not mentioned in
> reference to Hubert II. Your listings of children for Hubert II also do not
> include an unnamed daughter. As you suggest a Hubert III, might I ask if
> any of his family relations are known? Could he be the father, and if so,
> is the mother known?
The source for this daughter of a Hubert de Munchensy married to William
Blund and their son named Hubert is in _Rotuli de dominabus..._, edited
by JH Round, Pipe Roll Society 35 (London, 1913) p. 63: "Hubertus
Blundus, filius Willelmi Blundi...fuit nepos Huberti de Muntchenesy".
A kindly medievalist has loaned me her copy of this. It is curious that
Fowler, writing in the 1930s, did not allude to Round's version of the
Munchensy genealogy in his introduction to the volume. This conflicts
with both Keats-Rohan and Fowler on the paternity of Stephen de
Munchensy of Edwardstone (died 1199).
According to Keats-Rohan and Fowler, Stephen's father was named Hugo,
although they disagree on this man's parentage and cite different
sources for the information.
However, Round gave no source for his statement that Stephen was son of
a Hubert instead. It is clear that this must be Fowler's Hubert V,
husband of Muriel de Valoignes, but Round apparently did not know the
name of Hubert's wife.
It may be that Fowler deliberately drew a veil over Round's scheme of
the family by simply disregarding it, if he didn't want to be critical
(Round had died in 1928) & when he didn't intend to include daughters
anyway. Without checking every source given by Fowler, I would be
inclined to prefer his authority in the 1930s to that of Round by 1913,
when his mind was - I think - not nearly what it had been anyway.
> I do not know if it is helpful, but Carl Boyer ("Medieval English Ancestors
> of Certain Americans") identifies the unnamed daughter as Sarah, daughter of
> Hubert de Munchensy.
A Sara de Munchensy is also mentioned in _Rotuli de dominabus..._ on p.
63: "Terra sua de Yxewurth' venit in manum Episcopi ad festum Sancti
Michaelis post mortem Sarre de Muntchenesy" (his [i.e. the underage
Hubert Blund's] manor of Ixworth came into the bishop's keeping on St
Michael's day after the death of Sara). This suggests to me a Munchensy
wife who had held Ixworth in dower, but of course she might have been
Hubert Blund's grandmother with a daughter, his mother, named after her.
I don't know of a source to confirm this.
Peter Stewart
Janet Ariciu
I have Joseph Mumcus owning land in Virginia by 1600s. I am hoping to link
across the water.
My family name is found to be spelled Muncus, Munches,Munckers, Munkres,
Munkersss etc.
Janet
Janet Ariciu
I am wondering. The name Munchensy, does the spelling of this name ever
chance to Muncus or Mumcus?
date 1600s.
Janet
-----Original Message-----
From: John Ravilious [mailto:the...@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 6:26 AM
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Peter de Valognes/Peter de Valence/Piers de Valoins