d'Auvergne -> Toulouse or Arles

[Markus Welschhoff]

Who knows the mother of Ermegarde d'Auvergne, wife of Eudes II de Blois. She was born about 995 and died on march 1040. I think, her father was Robert II d'Auvergne, but was her mother Ermegarde/Humberga of Toulouse or of Arles? And why the two names Ermegarde and Humberga, is she the same?

Thank you for answer.

Bye, MW
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[roger_...@ksg04.harvard.edu]

In a post by Todd Farmerie (see below), the mother of Ermengarde
d'Auvergne would evidently be Ermengarde de Brioude, daughter of
Étienne de Brioude, Count of Gévaudan, and Adele d'Anjou, who married
Robert III, Count d'Auvergne, d. 1032. (IIRC, Weis has no, or a
different ancestry). Ermengarde/Humberga are simply variants of the
same name, I'd guess the former being of french derivation; the latter,
german..... There is more information, esp on the De Brioude ancestry,
in the archives....

Hope this helps,

Roger

From: Todd A. Farmerie (farm...@interfold.com)
Subject: Re: Adelaide d'Anjou (was Tiburge d'Orange)
Date: 2000/07/30

<snip>

> Who are ALL of her ["her" referring to Adele d'Anjou, who married
three times and was the grandmother of Ermengarde d'Auvergne] children
(with the correct fathers)?

Stasser gives her the following:

by Etienne de Brioude:
1. Pons de Gevaudan
2. Bertrand de Brioude
3. Etienne de Brioude
4. Ermengarde/Humberge, Countess of Auvergne
5?. daughter, wife of Herbert of Troyes

by Raymond:
6. Guillaume Taillefer
7?. Toda/Adelaide, Countess of Besalu (I question this one)
8?. Letgarde

by Guillaume II of Provence:
9. Guillaume III
10. Constance, Queen of France

taf

[JBunot]

In his recent La Noblesse du Midi Carolingien,Christian Settipani has a
slightly different version for the ancestry of Ermengarde d’Auvergne,
comtesse of Blois. You will notice that Settipani proposes the existence
of another new daughter of Guillaume le Pieux, comte d’Auvergne and duc
d’Aquitaine, an Engelberge, married to Dalmatius, vicomte et abbe de
Brioude. I am not summarizing his (rather convincing though
circumstancial) argument in favor of this hypothesis because of its
exceptional density and invite you simply to read it and make yourself an
opinion. It is based (as usual) on onomastics and also the transmission of
important properties in Auvergne. Jean Bunot.

It goes like this :

1. Ermengarde d’Auvergne (+ 1042), m. 1005, Eudes II, comte de Blois,
Chartres, Tours, Troyes, Meaux et Sancerre (+ 1037)

2. Robert I, comte d’Auvergne 1010/16 (+ 1022/43)

3. m. c. 990/95, Ermengarde de Gevaudan (+ after 1010), half-sister of
Constance d’Arles, queen of France

4. Guillaume, vicomte de Clermont, comte d’Auvergne 989 (+ 1003/13)

5. Humberge (+ 1016)

6. Etienne, comte de Gevaudan, vicomte-abbé de Brioude (+ c. 975)

7. m. c. 970, Adelaide d’Anjou (+ after 1026)

8. Robert II, vicomte de Clermont 962 (+ 962/74)

9. Engelberge de Brioude, dame en partie de Beaumont (+ after 962)

12. Bertrand, vicomte de Gevaudan 925/39 (+939/54)

13. Emilgarde de Brioude

14. Foulques II le Bon, comte d’Anjou (+ 958)

15. m. 937, Gerberge de Gatinais (+ c. 952)

16. Robert I, vicomte de Clermont 915/62

17. Adalgarde/Aldearde

18. Dalmatius, vicomte-abbe de Brioude 922/47 (+ 947/54)

19. Engelberge (possibly d’Auvergne) (+ after 962)

24. Heraclius, seigneur d’Antoing 892/926

25. Goda

26. Etienne, vicomte-abbe de Brioude 903

27. Ermengarde, sister of a Dalmatius, noble d’Auvergne

32. Eustorge, noble d’Auvergne

33. Arsinde de Velay

34. Hubert, noble d’Auvergne

35. ép. Ermengarde

36. Etienne, vicomte-abbe de Brioude 903

37. Ermengarde, sister of a Dalmatius, noble d’Auvergne

38. possibly Guillaume le Pieux, comte d’Auvergne et de Macon, duc
d’Aquitaine, abbe laique de Brioude (+ 918)

39. possibly Engelberge de Provence

48. Vivien, seigneur d’Antoing (+ after 898)

52. Rigaud, noble d’Auvergne (+ before 903)

53. Ne... de Velay

66. Armand, vicomte de Velay 895 (+ c. 913)

67. Bertilde d’Antoing 895 (+ 913/26)

72. Rigaud, noble d’Auvergne (+ before 903)

73. Ne... de Velay

76. Bernard II Plantevelue, comte d’Auvergne et de Toulouse, marquis de
Gothie (+ after 883)

77. ép. Ermengarde d’Auvergne

78. Boson, roi de Provence

79. Ermengarde d’Italie

96. Berteland, noble d’Auvergne

97. Viviana

106. Claudius, vicomte de Velay 877/900 (+ c. 900)

107. Engelmode

132. Claudius, vicomte de Velay 877/900 (+ c. 900)

133. Engelmode

134. Berteland, noble d’Auvergne

135. Viviana

146. Claudius, vicomte de Velay 977/900 (+ c. 900)

147. Engelmode

152. Bernard, comte d’Auvergne, marquis de Gothie 824/44, s/o saint
Guillaume, comte et duc de Toulouse and Cunegonde

153. Dhuoda/Doda de Gascogne

154. Bernard, comte d’Auvergne (+ 868)

155. Liedgarde (+ after 868)

156. Buvinus, comte de Metz, abbe laique de Gorze 842/62

157. Ne... d/o Boson le Vieux, comte d’Arles et en Italie

158. Louis II, roi d’Italie, empereur

159. Engelberge

[WJho...@aol.com]

I'm not understanding this. Are you saying Robert was born 1010/16 and then married about 990/5 ? Or are you saying 1010/6 was the date he was Count ?
Thanks

"1. Ermengarde d但uvergne (+ 1042), m. 1005, Eudes II, comte de Blois, Chartres, Tours, Troyes, Meaux et Sancerre (+ 1037)

2. Robert I, comte d但uvergne 1010/16 (+ 1022/43)

3. m. c. 990/95, Ermengarde de Gevaudan (+ after 1010), half-sister of

Constance d但rles, queen of France

4. Guillaume, vicomte de Clermont, comte d但uvergne 989 (+ 1003/13)"

[Markus Welschhoff]

Thank you all for your answers.

Isn't it possible, that No. 3 was a daughter "de Toulouse", as I found in the net?

MW

"JBunot" <magnu...@yahoo.com> schrieb am 24.01.05 21:15:50:

In his recent La Noblesse du Midi Carolingien,Christian Settipani has a
slightly different version for the ancestry of Ermengarde d’Auvergne,
comtesse of Blois. You will notice that Settipani proposes the existence
of another new daughter of Guillaume le Pieux, comte d’Auvergne and duc
d’Aquitaine, an Engelberge, married to Dalmatius, vicomte et abbe de
Brioude. I am not summarizing his (rather convincing though
circumstancial) argument in favor of this hypothesis because of its
exceptional density and invite you simply to read it and make yourself an
opinion. It is based (as usual) on onomastics and also the transmission of
important properties in Auvergne. Jean Bunot.

It goes like this :

1. Ermengarde d’Auvergne (+ 1042), m. 1005, Eudes II, comte de Blois,

Chartres, Tours, Troyes, Meaux et Sancerre (+ 1037)

2. Robert I, comte d’Auvergne 1010/16 (+ 1022/43)

3. m. c. 990/95, Ermengarde de Gevaudan (+ after 1010), half-sister of

5. Humberge (+ 1016)

13. Emilgarde de Brioude

17. Adalgarde/Aldearde

25. Goda

33. Arsinde de Velay

35. ép. Ermengarde

53. Ne... de Velay

73. Ne... de Velay

79. Ermengarde d’Italie

97. Viviana

107. Engelmode

133. Engelmode

135. Viviana

147. Engelmode

153. Dhuoda/Doda de Gascogne

159. Engelberge

______________________________________________________________

[magnu...@yahoo.com]

Are you really not understanding this ? Anyway, he was attested "as
count" between 1010-1016 and died anytime between 1022-1043. He was
described as count of Clermont or Auvergne and sometimes even viscount.
Jean Bunot