C.P. Addition: Agnes Harcourt, wife of John Deiville, Knt. (died 1325-6), of Thornton Bridge, Yorkshire, Egmanton, Nottinghamshire, etc.

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

Complete Peerage 4 (1916): 132–133 (sub Deiville) has a good account of Sir John Deiville, Knt., of Thornton Bridge (in Brafferton), Adlingfleet, Cundall, Kilburn, Leckby (in Cundall), and Thornton-on-the-Hill (in Coxwold), Yorkshire, and Egmanton, Nottinghamshire. He was born say 1276 (still a minor in 1295), and died 1325-6.

Regarding his first marriage, the following information is provided:

"He married, 1stly, Agnes." END OF QUOTE.

No documentation is given in this account for this marriage. However, on page 133, footnote g, under the account of Sir John Deiville's son and heir, Sir Robert Deiville, specific evidence is cited that Sir Robert Deiville was the son of Sir John Deiville [died 1325-6], by his wife, Agnes. Here are those comments:

"It is stated (De Banco, Easter, 5 Edw. III, m. 261) that he [Robert] was son of John Deyville, of Egmanton, son of John Deyville of Egmanton, by Maud his wife. Also (Idem, Easter, 6 Edw. III, m. 320) that he [Robert] was son of John Deyville of Adlingfleet, by Agnes his wife." END OF QUOTE.

The first lawsuit cited by Complete Peerage is a Common Pleas lawsuit dated 1331, which lawsuit identifies John de Eyvill [died c.1291] and his wife, Maud, as the parents of John de Eyvill [died 1325–6], which younger John in turn is identified as the father of Robert de Eyvill, of Egmanton, Nottinghamshire, living in 1331. Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/285, image 535f, available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT2/E3/CP40no285/aCP40no285fronts/IMG_0535.htm.

The second lawsuit cited by Complete Peerage is a Common Pleas lawsuit dated dated 1332, which identifies John de Eyvill [died 1325–6] and his wife, Agnes, as the parents of Robert de Eyvill, of Adlingfleet, Yorkshire, living in 1332. Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/290, image 647f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT1/E3/CP40no290/aCP40no290fronts/IMG_0647.htm).

The second lawsuit confirms that Sir John Deiville's first wife was Agnes and that she was the mother of his son and heir, Robert, just as stated by Complete Peerage. Due to chronological considerations, I believe Agnes was also the mother of Sir John Deiville's older two daughters, ELizabeth (wife of Alexander de Leeds, Knt.) and Margaret.

Complete Peerage makes no attempt to identify Agnes Deiville. However, recently I came across a pedigree of the Harcourt family published in Lipscomb, History & Antiquities of Buckingham 4 (1847): 589–592 (Harcourt ped.). In this pedigree, the author assigns Agnes, wife of Sir John Deyvilles, Knt. as the daughter of Sir Richard de Harcourt, of Stanton Harcourt, Oxfordshire [died 1293], by his 1st wife, Margaret, daughter and co-heiress of John [de] Beke, Lord Beke.

The Harcourt pedigree can be found at the following weblink:

https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=mXkgAQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&output=reader&hl=en&pg=GBS.PA590

While Mr. Lipscomb doesn't provide his source for the identification of Agnes Deiville, I'm reasonably confident that he is correct. As far as I know, Mr. Lipscomb had no knowledge of the 1332 Common Pleas lawsuit which proves that Sir John Deyville's wife was named Agnes. As such, I assume that he must have used yet another source which placed Agnes, wife of Sir John Deyville as the daughter of Sir Richard de Harcourt.

For interest's sake, the extended ancestry of Agnes de Harcourt may be viewed at the following weblink.

http://www.genealogics.org/verticalchart.php?personID=I00029015&tree=LEO&parentset=0&display=vertical&generations=7

A review of Agnes de Harcourt's extended ancestry finds that she descends from King Henry I of England, King Malcolm III of Scotland, Isabel de Vermandois (twice), King Henry I of France, Alice of Normandy (sister of King William the Conqueror) (twice), and the ever popular Milicent de Rethel.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

[sabaris...@gmail.com]

Dear Douglas
please spare a thought for those of us who live in countries/continents where Google Play is not (yet?) available, and provide alternative links.
Thank you
Saba

[taf]

On Friday, August 5, 2016 at 12:11:01 AM UTC-7, sabaris...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, August 5, 2016 at 4:27:25 AM UTC+2, Douglas Richardson wrote:

> > The Harcourt pedigree can be found at the following weblink:
> >
> > https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=mXkgAQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&output=reader&hl=en&pg=GBS.PA590
> >

> Dear Douglas
> please spare a thought for those of us who live in countries/continents where
> Google Play is not (yet?) available, and provide alternative links.

https://archive.org/stream/historyantiquiti04lips#page/590/mode/2up

taf

[taf]

On Thursday, August 4, 2016 at 7:27:25 PM UTC-7, Douglas Richardson wrote:

> Complete Peerage makes no attempt to identify Agnes Deiville. However,
> recently I came across a pedigree of the Harcourt family published in
> Lipscomb, History & Antiquities of Buckingham 4 (1847): 589–592 (Harcourt
> ped.). In this pedigree, the author assigns Agnes, wife of Sir John
> Deyvilles, Knt. as the daughter of Sir Richard de Harcourt, of Stanton
> Harcourt, Oxfordshire [died 1293], by his 1st wife, Margaret, daughter and
> co-heiress of John [de] Beke, Lord Beke.
>
> The Harcourt pedigree can be found at the following weblink:
>
> https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=mXkgAQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&output=reader&hl=en&pg=GBS.PA590
>
> While Mr. Lipscomb doesn't provide his source for the identification of Agnes
> Deiville, I'm reasonably confident that he is correct. As far as I know, Mr.
> Lipscomb had no knowledge of the 1332 Common Pleas lawsuit which proves that
> Sir John Deyville's wife was named Agnes. As such, I assume that he must
> have used yet another source which placed Agnes, wife of Sir John Deyville as
> the daughter of Sir Richard de Harcourt.

Because he got her name correct he is to be trusted for her parentage?

taf

[sabaris...@gmail.com]

Dear Taf

thank you very much. I should also like to thank you and all those who share their findings. Since Sarajevo, where I live, has no major library (the National and University library was deliberately destroyed by incendiary bombs launched by the aggressors early in the 1992-1995 war) I depend on what I can find on the internet for my genealogical research, and am very grateful to those who have access to material and are willing to share what they find.

For me, genealogy isn't just about finding out about my own past - it's a way of defying those who seek to erase the history of "the other".

best regards to all
Saba

[taf]

Saba,

For online books, the Internet Archive (archive.org) is probably the first place to look. The Hathi Trust (hathitrust.org) also has a lot of books, but access depends on country. Also try the Family History Library, (https://familysearch.org/catalog/search) which is putting a lot of the earlier sources online.

taf

[sabaris...@gmail.com]

Thank you so much. I do use the Internet Archive and have once or twice found stuff on Hathi Trust but wasn't aware that the FHL was digitising early sources.
best
Saba
Saba

[joe...@gmail.com]

Let's, for the sake of argument, even go so far as to say maybe he had some (now lost) evidence (Heraldic, etc) that she was a Harcourt. Without further details, it is impossible to judge whether he assigned her to the right Harcourt parents. Maybe it was a guess on his part.
Right now it seems more like a lead than a proof.

--Joe C

[Douglas Richardson]

On Saturday, August 6, 2016 at 5:57:00 AM UTC-6, joe...@gmail.com wrote:

< Let's, for the sake of argument, even go so far as to say maybe he had some <(now lost) evidence (Heraldic, etc) that she was a Harcourt. Without further <details, it is impossible to judge whether he assigned her to the right <Harcourt parents. Maybe it was a guess on his part.
< Right now it seems more like a lead than a proof.
<
< --Joe C

Dear Joe ~

I've used Lipscomb on numerous occasions. Given the time period in which he did his work, his work was well done. In general, I'd say he is trustworthy. In this case, he has placed Agnes, wife of Sir John Deiville, as a daughter of Sir Richard de Harcourt, but did not supply his documentation.

I can make some observations. Sir John Deiville has extended ancestry that is similar in nature to that of Agnes de Harcourt. Such a match would be exactly what one would would expect for Sir John Deiville's first marriage. That part is good. Next, the chronology is fine. I estimate that Sir John Deiville was born say 1276, and Agnes de Harcourt's brother, Sir John de Harcourt, was born in 1274. Next, I note that Sir John Deiville and his wife, Agnes, named a daughter Margaret, who presumably was named for Agnes de Harcourt's mother, Margaret (Beke) de Harcourt.

One would certainly like to know the source that Lipscomb used to make his identification of Agnes de Harcourt as Sir John Deiville's wife. He obviously didn't use the 1332 Common Pleas lawsuit which proves that Sir John Deiville's wife was named Agnes. The lawsuit confirms Agnes' given name, but does not provide her maiden name or parentage. As such, Lipscomb would necessarily have to have employed yet another source which I haven't yet encountered. Such a source could be an earlier author such as Dugdale or a privately held charter or marriage settlement or an ancient Deiville or Harcourt pedigree kept at the College of Arms.

Checking online sources, I see a few genealogical databases cite the LDS Ancestral File as their source for the marriage of Sir John Deiville and Agnes de Harcourt. My guess is the Ancestral File probably used Lipscomb as its source.

For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Sir John Deville and his wife, Agnes, by way of their daughter, Elizabeth Deiville, wife of Sir Alexander de Leeds:

William Bladen, Edward Carleton