FitzWilliam corrections, and a (Plantagenet) question
John P. Ravilious
Hello All,
In reviewing possible evidence concerning the FitzWilliams
and a long alleged Metham marriage, I found the charter of
William fitz William (1331) to Hanepole priory to be interesting
initially in that the abbreviated witness list includes
"domino Johanne de Eland, Rogero de Novo-mercato, Thoma de
Metham, militibus, &c." [1]
Also interesting, the portion of this charter confirming a
grant by the first William fitz William, son of Aubrey de Lisours
(and great-grandfather of the grantor in 1331), mentions the
confirmation by that William of his mother's grant of the church
of Athewyks, and of annual of rents from Plumtree for use in
maintaining the supply of oil for lamps to light the area around
the tomb of his late wife Matilda, or Maud: "Insuper inspexi
cartam Willielmi filii Willielmi, filii et haeredis praedictae
Albredae de Lisours, testantem quod idem Willielmus filius
Willielmi confirmavit donationem matris suae Albredae,..... ad
oleum emendum, ut lampas una, nocte dieque indesinenter sit
ardens ad tumbam Matildis quondam uxoris suae." [2]
This earliest William fitz William married Ela de Warenne,
as noted in Complete Peerage [3]; I don't recall any evidence for
another, prior wife Maud in that or any other record I had seen
prior to today. This text seems to have been long misunderstood,
including by the author of the CP account and others who have
evidently ascribed this Maud as a first wife of the Sir William
fitz William who married Isabel Deincourt.
Following is a slightly amended FitzWilliam pedigree:
2) William fitz = Albreda de Hamelin = Isabella
Godric I Lisours E of Surrey I de Warenne
I ___I
I I
1) Maud = William fitz William = 2) Ela de
d. aft 9 Feb 1218/9 I Warenne
_______________I___
I I
Thomas fitz William Roger
= Agnes Bertram of Gretewell
I
____________I______________________________
I I I I I I
Sir William Denise Roger siblings
fitz Thomas = Sir Robert
d. bef 1295 de Daiville
(= Agnes de Metham ?)
I
I
Sir William Fitz William = Isabel Deincourt
[* NOTE: no prior wife
currently identified or
claimed]
One important question comes to mind: what evidence do we
have in hand that Ela de Warenne was in fact the mother of Sir
Thomas fitz William?
Cheers,
John
NOTES
[1] Mon. Angl. V:487, num. III.
[2] Ibid.
[3] CP V:519, notes, sub _FitzWilliam_.
* John P. Ravilious
Ian Goddard
> Wednesday, 30 May, 2007
<snip>
One possible line of enquiry: Emley appears to have come into the possession
of the FitzWilliams via the marriage to Ela. Do we know what the exact
arrangements were? If she retained possession of Emley herself then it can
only have come to Thomas if he were her heir.
My local library has a copy of "The history of Emley"; if I get chance to go
there in the next few days I'll take a look and see if it has anything
useful although I don't hold out much hope.
--
Ian Goddard
Hotmail is for the benefit of spammers. The email address that I actually
read is igoddard and that's at nildram dot co dot uk
John P. Ravilious
Thanks for that, and the offer for the lookup in Pobjoy's History
of Emley. That will be most interesting; at the same time, there is a
good possibility (if not likelihood) an answer re: the FitzWilliam
descent from de Warenne may lurk elsewhere in Early Yorkshire
Charters. See my post earlier, replying to Rosie Bevan in the thread
<Yet Another C.P. Correction: Ela de Warenne's 1st husband, Robert de
Newburgh>.
Meanwhile, best of luck at the library!
Cheers,
John
Ian Goddard
Another thought - do you know where Thomas was buried? There could be a
chance of an inscription giving his parentage. If it's reasonably local to
me I could take a look.
Ian
Ian Goddard
Well, that got nowhere. Clearly the statement "21 n above that Emley
passed to the fitzwilliam family by reason of the marriage
of William fitzwilliam to Ela daughter of earl Hamelin. ..." at
http://www.google.co.uk/books?id=uYAiAAAAMAAJ&q=emley+fitzwilliam&dq=emley+fitzwilliam&pgis=1
is basically untrue. (Annoyingly the text I've quoted comes up in the
search results page but not in the snippet view I can see. Grrrrr.)
According to Pobjoy Emley was part of Wakefield manor (not news - the
Wakefield court records include Emley) pre-Conquest and the 2nd Earl
Warenne acquired the Wakefield from William II. However, the connection
with what became the FitzWilliam family goes back at least to Godric's
father; Godric was able to allow Byland fuel from Emley wood prior to 1170.
There's nothing new in this. As to Thomas' mother he has nothing
whatsoever to say.
In marrying Ela William was acquiring a mother-in-law who was part of his
lord's family. Possibly there was a change of status of Emley as a
consequence of this, albeit insufficient to give the FitzWilliams a right
to hold their own courts, but it throws no light on our current concern.
Douglas Richardson
Back in 2007, John Ravilious kindly posted a pedigree chart of the early Fitz William family of Sprotborough and Emley, Yorkshire [see below].
His pedigree shows that William Fitz William (living 1219) and his wife, Ela de Warenne, were the parents of two sons, Thomas and Roger.
Recently I came across a charter of William de Warenne, 6th Earl of Surrey, dated c.1234, which charter was witnessed by his three nephews, Sir Thomas Fitz William and his brothers, John, Knt., and Roger, Knt.
Reference: Blomefield, Essay towards a Topog. Hist. of Norfolk 7 (1807): 385 (charter of William, Earl of Warenne dated c.1234), available at the following weblink:
https://books.google.com/books?id=jNsvAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA385&lpg=PA385
While I was aware that William Fitz William and his wife, Ela, had sons named Thomas and Roger, I did not known about the third son, John. Nor did I know that all three sons were knighted.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + +
< Wednesday, 30 May, 2007
<
<
<
< 2) William fitz = Albreda de Hamelin = Isabella
< Godric I Lisours E of Surrey I de Warenne
< I ___I
< I I
< 1) Maud = William fitz William = 2) Ela de
< d. aft 9 Feb 1218/9 I Warenne
< _______________I___
< I I
< Thomas fitz William Roger
< = Agnes Bertram of Gretewell
< I
< ____________I______________________________
< I I I I I I
< Sir William Denise Roger siblings
< fitz Thomas = Sir Robert
< d. bef 1295 de Daiville
< (= Agnes de Metham ?)
< I
< I
John Watson
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> Recently I came across a charter of William de Warenne, 6th Earl of Surrey, dated c.1234, which charter was witnessed by his three nephews, Sir Thomas Fitz William and his brothers, John, Knt., and Roger, Knt.
>
> Reference: Blomefield, Essay towards a Topog. Hist. of Norfolk 7 (1807): 385 (charter of William, Earl of Warenne dated c.1234), available at the following weblink:
>
> https://books.google.com/books?id=jNsvAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA385&lpg=PA385
>
The charter of William de Warenne, was witnessed not by three nephews, but by four. The first witness John de Stuteville, was the son of his sister Maud by her second husband, Henry de Stuteville.
Regards,
John
Colin Withers
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
I wonder why the four nephews were not listed consecutively, where does
Radolphus de la Hay fit in?
Wibs
John Watson
CP mentions only 3 sisters for William de Warenne, and I can't find any connection between any of these families and de la Haye.
(1) Ela, who married, firstly, Robert de Newburn, of whom nothing is known, and secondly, William FitzWilliam of Sprotborough; (2) Isabel, who married, firstly, Robert de Lascy, and secondly, Gilbert de Laigle, lord of Pevensey;
(3) Maud, who married, firstly, Henry, Count of Eu and lord of Hastings, and secondly, Henry d'Estouteville or de Stuteville, of Eckington, co. Derby, and Dedham, Essex, lord of Valmont and Rames in Normandy.
Complete Peerage, vol. 12/2, 500, note (g).
William de Warenne did have another nephew, William Laigle, son of his sister Isabel. William Laigle was a knight Templar and probably lived in Normandy.
Regards,
John
taf
> > The charter of William de Warenne, was witnessed not by three nephews,
> > but by four. The first witness John de Stuteville, was the son of his
> > sister Maud by her second husband, Henry de Stuteville.
> Radolphus de la Hay fit in?
~~~~
Darrell E. Larocque
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> Back in 2007, John Ravilious kindly posted a pedigree chart of the early Fitz William family of Sprotborough and Emley, Yorkshire [see below].
>
> His pedigree shows that William Fitz William (living 1219) and his wife, Ela de Warenne, were the parents of two sons, Thomas and Roger.
> While I was aware that William Fitz William and his wife, Ela, had sons named Thomas and Roger, I did not known about the third son, John. Nor did I know that all three sons were knighted.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
> > have in hand that Ela de Warenne was in fact the mother of Sir
> > Thomas fitz William?
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > John
I never saw a concrete explanation for the conclusion.
Thank you!