Les seigneurs de Dol and Raoul de Fougeres

[The...@aol.com]

Tuesday, 21 January, 2003

Hello All,

Jeanne de Dol is given in AR 7 as the wife of Raoul de Fougeres
(d. 1192), frequent opponent of Henry of Anjou (aka Henry II of
England), and thereby ancestress of the subsequent seigneurs de
Fougeres, the Mortimer Earls of March (post 1330) and many
besides.

Two barely connected (secondary) sources indicate that Jeanne
was the (or a) daughter (or sister) of Jean de Dol, who d. in
1162, and was thereby of the house of Dol-Combour:

1. In a thread on SGM from 16 May 1999 entitled <DINAN>,
Laurent and Yoshiko Ohier provided a chart of the
vicomtes de Dinan, including the following portion:

' 1. Haimon Ier, comte in Domnonee (north Brittany). d. bef
1055. He married Roianteline, a possible sister, or
niece, of Wicohen, archbishop of Dol.....
Their children were:

1.1 Haimon II, vicomte of Dol and Dinan
1.2 Josselin, vicomte de Dinan, married abt 1047 Orgwen.
Some times ago, I read on this list that Josselin
(called strangely Geoffroy Ier) was the son of Haimon II.
But his name is definitely Josselin, or Gauscelin
(Costelinus) and is mentionned on a charte (1040)
concerning Berthe, widow of Alain III of Brittany,
giving the entire paroisse of Plougasnou to the Saint-
Georges abbey in Rennes.
1.3 Junkeneus, archbishop of Dol, founder of Combourg.
1.4 Rivallon "Capra Canuta", seigneur of Dol and Combourg.
he married Arembourge du Puiset. He is the ancestor of
the Dol lineage:

1.4.1 Guillaume, abbot of Saint-Florent
1.4.2 Jean, seigneur of Dol

1.4.2.1 Rivallon, sr of Dol

1.4.2.1.1 Gesdouin, sr of Dol, who married Noga.

1.4.2.1.1.1 Noga, married Conan Ier de Penthievre
1.4.2.1.1.2 Jean, seigneur of Dol

1.4.2.1.1.3 Jean de Dol, married Raoul II de Fougeres, son
of Henri de Fougeres and Olive de Penthievre. '

The above gives Jeanne (or Jean) de Dol as the sister of John,
or Jean, seigneur de Dol.

2. W. L. Warren wrote of Raoul de Fougeres,

'...when John of Dol died in July of that year [1162], leaving
his heiress and estates to the guardianship of Raoul de
Fougeres, Henry [II, of England] had intervened to take
possession of the stronghold of Dol.....

' While Henry was in England [Jan 1163 - 1166] a league had
been formed among the border barons of Brittany and Maine,
led by Ralph de Fougeres, to resist his lordship.' [1]

That Raoul de Fougeres was usually opposed to Henry II's rule
was not atypical; once Henry razed the castle of Fougeres in 1166,
it would be unlikely to develop otherwise (although Raoul's career
is as checkered as any other during this period).

My original read from Warren was that Jeanne, wife of Raoul de
Fougeres, was the daughter and heiress of Jean de Dol. However, I
find that K.S.B. Keats-Rohan shows one Isolde or Iseuldis to have
been the daughter and heiress of Jean de Dol, and wife of Harscoit
de Soligny [Suligny] [2]. As she states that the issue of
Harscoit and Jean de Dol inherited the seigneurie de Dol and the
English lands of the family, this seems to work with the Ohier
reflection of Jeanne de Dol as sister (not daughter) of Jean (d.
1162).

That aside, does anyone have documentation that confirms, or
disproves, the relation of Jeanne de Dol to Jean de Dol (d. 1162)
as set forth by Laurent Ohier, and also the descent of the family
down to Jeanne? Following reasonable proof(s), I will post the
relevant descents for the seigneur de Dol down to the Mortimers
and others.

Thanks, good luck, and good hunting.

John *

NOTES

[1] W. L. Warren, Henry II (1973: University of California Press
[English Monarchs series]).

[2] K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, Domesday Descendants (2002: The Boydell
Press), p. 725.

* John P. Ravilious

[Cristopher Nash]

John <The...@aol.com> wrote

Without my pretending to have followed this through in detail, André
Chédeville and Noël-Yves Tonnerre published in _La Bretagne féodale
XIe-XIIIe siècle_ (Rennes, 1987):

In June 1162, on the death of Jean de Dol, the baron of Fougères had
wardship of the deceased's daughter and the custody of his/her lands.
[My quick/rough tr. - "En juin 1162, à la mort de Jean de Dol, le
baron de Fougères avait reçu la tutelle de la fille du défunt et la
garde de ses terres" (87). As you can see, whose holdings these are
- whether Jean's or [already] his daughter's - is obscured in the
neuter "ses".] Raoul de Fougères was obliged to cede to Henri II
the fortresses of Dol and Combourg which Jean de Dol had entrusted to
him before dying (108). No sources given.

Useful may be Gen-Med postings of 4-6 Jul 99 from "Olivier Cocheril"
<olivier....@etab.ac-caen.fr>, Université de Caen, on Raoul de
Fougères.

Cris
--

[Jay Cary]

John,

One other secondary source to check, if you haven't, would be Hubert
Guillotel, “Combour: Proto-histoire d’une Seigneurie et Mis en Oevre de
la Reforme Gregorienne”, Family Trees and the Roots of Politics, K.S.B.
Keats-Rohan, ed. p. 269 - 298. As I recall this article offers more
detail on the line than Domesday Descendants does.

Jay Cary

[The...@aol.com]

Tuesday, 21 January, 2003

Dear Cris,

Thanks for the feedback. I found a thread from 1999 <Re:
LUSIGNAN and FOUGERES> between Prof. Cocheril, Mike Talbot &
others in which the parentage is as given by Laurent Ohier -
that is, Jeanne de Dol as daughter of Gesdouin [Geldouin per
talbot] de Dol and his wife Noga, and thereby sister of Jean
(d. 1162). The lineage was provided by Mike: Prof. Cocheril
corrected a very few items, but not the Dol descent.

I will scan for other verification, and appreciate the
referrals. The related descents will be posted in the next
few days (and notation as to any and all references).

Cheers,

John *

* John P. Ravilious

[The...@aol.com]

Tuesday, 21 January, 2003

Dear Jay,

Thanks for the ref. Will be on the lookout.......

With some luck, it will extend down into the elusive 11th century.

[Cristopher Nash]

Jay Cary <j...@alum.dartmouth.org> wrote --

Jay is certainly right - that the Guillotel article looks at the
foundations of the Dol-Combour line. Unfortunately it descends only
as far - in Chart I - as

Jean de Dol-Combour m. Godehilde de Fougères
I
I
__________________________________________
Rivallon II Gelduin (+1137) H. m. Geoffrey Boterel II

-- i.e. to the generation of John's 1.4.2.1 Rivallon, sr of Dol. The
text itself appears (so far as I can see in a quick skim) to consider
no Jean de Dol later than "Jean de Dol qui, veuf, avait fait
profession monastique à Saumur vers 1083" (288).

Cris

--

[Todd A. Farmerie]

Jay Cary wrote:
> John,
>
> One other secondary source to check, if you haven't, would be Hubert
> Guillotel, “Combour: Proto-histoire d’une Seigneurie et Mis en Oevre de
> la Reforme Gregorienne”, Family Trees and the Roots of Politics, K.S.B.
> Keats-Rohan, ed. p. 269 - 298. As I recall this article offers more
> detail on the line than Domesday Descendants does.

Unfortunately, in does not go quite far enough to answer the
question at hand. It ends with the generation of Gelduin I.

taf