C.P. Addition: Marriage date of Sir Robert de Holand, 1st Lord Holand, and Maud la Zouche

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celticp...@gmail.com

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Jul 20, 2019, 2:02:32 PM7/20/19
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Dear Newsgroup ~

Complete Peerage 6 (1926): 528–531 (sub Holand) has a good account of Sir Robert de Holand, 1st Lord Holand, who died in 1328. Regarding his marriage to Maud la Zouche, the following information is provided on page 530:

"He married, about 1311, certainly before August 1314, Maud, daughter and coheiress of Alan (la Zouche), Lord Zouche, with whom he acquired extensive estates, including the manor of Brackley, Northamptonshire." END OF QUOTE.

In footnote i on page 530, this couple is further discussed. The source for the August 1314 date in the main text appears to be Cal. of Patent Rolls, 1313–1317 (1898): 226, which reads as follows:

"Date: 13 July 1314. Commission of oyer and terminer to Henry Spigurnel and John de Cave, touching the persons who broke the coffers of Nicholas de Sancto Mauro [Seymout] and Elena his wife, and of Robert de Holand and Matilda his wife, at Brackele, co. Northampton, and carried away their goods and their charters, writings and other muniments." END OF QUOTE.

The above item may be viewed at the following weblink:

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=gri.ark:/13960/t0wq2kg62&view=1up&seq=240

As we can see above, the item in question actually indicates that Robert de Holand and Maud his wife were married before 13 July 1314, not August 1314.

There is yet another contemporary record which indicates that Robert de Holand and Maud la Zouche were married before 13 May 1306. This record consists of a fine of that date whereby Maud la Zouche’s great aunt, Emeline Longespée, widow of Maurice Fitz Maurice, Knt., settled the manor of Denford (in Kintbury), Berkshire on herself for life, with remainder to Robert de Holand and Maud his wife and the heirs of Maud.

An abstract of the above mentioned fine is found on Chris Phillips' great website at the following weblink and is also copied further below:

http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/fines/abstracts/CP_25_1_9_38.shtml

The original fine may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT7/CP25(1)/CP25_1_9_36-38/IMG_0065.htm

In summary, we see that Sir Robert de Holand and his wife, Maud la Zouche, were married before 13 May 1306 (date of the fine), not about 1311, as claimed by Complete Peerage.

For interest's sake, the following is a list of the numerous 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Sir Robert de Holand, 1st Lord Holand, and his wife, Maud la Zouche.

Robert Abell, Barbara Aubrey, John Barclay, John Baynard, Dorothy Beresford, John Bevan, Essex Beville, William Bladen, Elizabeth Bosvile, Thomas Bressey, Obadiah Bruen, Stephen Bull, Charles Calvert, St. Leger Codd, Humphrey Davie, Edward Digges, Robert Drake, Rowland Ellis, Agatha, Alice, Eleanor, Jane & Martha Eltonhead, John Fenwick, Henry Fleete, Thomas Gerard, Muriel Gurdon, Mary Gye, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Warham Horsmanden, Patrick Houston, Anne Humphrey, Mary Launce, Nathaniel Littleton, Thomas Lloyd, Gabriel, Roger & Sarah Ludlow, Thomas Lunsford, Oliver Manwaring, John and Margaret Nelson, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Herbert Pelham, William & Elizabeth Pole, Henry & William Randolph, George Reade, Thomas Rudyard, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, Mary Johanna Somerset, John Stockman, Rose Stoughton, James Taylor, Samuel & William Torrey, John & Lawrence Washington, Olive Welby, John West, Hawte Wyatt, Amy Wyllys.

Do you descend from Sir Robert de Holand and Maud la Zouche? If so, I'd very much like to see your list of descent from this couple posted here on the newsgroup.

Douglas Richardson, Historian and Genealogist

+ + + + + + +

CP 25/1/9/38, number 10.
Link: Image of document at AALT
County: Berkshire.
Place: Westminster.
Date: The day after Ascension, 34 Edward I [13 May 1306].
Parties: Hugh de Deneford', the parson of the church of Lauynton', querent, and Emmeline Longespeie, deforciant, by Ralph de Sherpynh[a]m, put in her place.
Property: The manor of Deneford'.
Action: Plea of covenant.
Agreement: Emmeline has acknowledged the manor to be the right of Hugh, as that which he has of her [gift].
For this: Hugh has granted to Emmeline the manor and has rendered it to her in the court, to hold to Emmeline, of the chief lords for the life of Emmeline. And after the decease of Emmeline the manor shall remain to Robert de Holond' and Maud, his wife, and the heirs begotten by Robert on the body [of Maud], to hold of the chief lords for ever. In default of such heirs, remainder to Alan la Zouche [and his heirs, quit] of the heirs of Emmeline and also of the other heirs of Robert and Maud, to hold of the chief lords for ever.

Standardised forms of names. (These are tentative suggestions, intended only as a finding aid.)
Persons: Hugh de Denford, Emmeline Longespee, Ralph de Sharpenham, Robert de Holland, Maud de Holland, Alan la Zouche
Places: Lavington (in Wiltshire), Denford (in Kintbury)

William Collins

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Jul 21, 2019, 3:42:08 PM7/21/19
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Here is a line I believe to be correct:
Thomas de Holand 1319-1360
Thomas de Holand 1350-1397
Alianor or Eleanor Holand 1370-1405
Joyce de Cherleton c1404-1446
Joan or Jane de Tiptoft c.1421-aft.1491
Isabel or Elizabeth Ingaldesthorpe c1441-1476
Lucy Neville aft.1466-1534
Anthony Browne 1500-1548
Anthony Browne 1528-1592
Anthony Browne 1552-1592
Katherine Browne 1585-c.1651
Katherine Tregonwell 1602-1663
Elizabeth Olive Frampton 1632-1661
John Wills (immigrant) 1660-1746
Thomas Wills 1703-1754
Thomas Wills c.1733-?
Catherine Wills 1765-1839
Solomon Headley 1790-1860
Catherine Headley 1836-1914
Mary Brown Robbins 1863-1957
Alfred Whitehead Collins 1903-1985

Patrick Nielsen Hayden

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Jul 21, 2019, 4:53:53 PM7/21/19
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On 2019-07-20 18:02:30 +0000, celticp...@gmail.com said:

> For interest's sake, the following is a list of the numerous 17th
> Century New World immigrants that descend from Sir Robert de Holand,
> 1st Lord Holand, and his wife, Maud la Zouche.
> Robert Abell, Barbara Aubrey, John Barclay, John Baynard, Dorothy
> Beresford, John Bevan, Essex Beville, William Bladen, Elizabeth
> Bosvile, Thomas Bressey, Obadiah Bruen, Stephen Bull, Charles Calvert,
> St. Leger Codd, Humphrey Davie, Edward Digges, Robert Drake, Rowland
> Ellis, Agatha, Alice, Eleanor, Jane & Martha Eltonhead, John Fenwick,
> Henry Fleete, Thomas Gerard, Muriel Gurdon, Mary Gye, Elizabeth & John
> Harleston, Warham Horsmanden, Patrick Houston, Anne Humphrey, Mary
> Launce, Nathaniel Littleton, Thomas Lloyd, Gabriel, Roger & Sarah
> Ludlow, Thomas Lunsford, Oliver Manwaring, John and Margaret Nelson,
> Philip & Thomas Nelson, Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Herbert Pelham,
> William & Elizabeth Pole, Henry & William Randolph, George Reade,
> Thomas Rudyard, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, Mary
> Johanna Somerset, John Stockman, Rose Stoughton, James Taylor, Samuel &
> William Torrey, John & Lawrence Washington, Olive Welby, John West,
> Hawte Wyatt, Amy Wyllys.


Unless I've completely overlooked something, I'm unable to find a
descent from this couple to the immigrant Richard Saltonstall
(~1610-1694). No such descent appears to be in Richardson's RA, nor in
Genealogics, nor in several other sources I've been able to consult. Am
I missing something?


--
Patrick Nielsen Hayden
http://nielsenhayden.com
http://nielsenhayden.com/genealogy-tng/

Jan Wolfe

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Jul 21, 2019, 11:32:14 PM7/21/19
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On Saturday, July 20, 2019 at 2:02:32 PM UTC-4, celticp...@gmail.com wrote:
...
> There is yet another contemporary record which indicates that Robert de Holand and Maud la Zouche were married before 13 May 1306.
...
> http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT7/CP25(1)/CP25_1_9_36-38/IMG_0065.htm
>
...
> Do you descend from Sir Robert de Holand and Maud la Zouche? If so, I'd very much like to see your list of descent from this couple posted here on the newsgroup.
...

Thanks, Douglas, for posting this information about the 1306 fine.

My ancestress Katherine (Craighead) Homes and her brother Thomas Craighead (early 18th century immigrants) have the following descent:

Robert de Holand = Maud la Zouche
Thomas de Holand = Joan Plantagenet of Kent
Thomas de Holand = Alice Fitz Alan
Eleanor Holand = Roger Mortimer
Anne Mortimer = Richard of Conigsburgh
Richard Plantagenet = Cecily Neville
Edward IV = Elizabeth Woodville
Elizabeth of York = Henry VII
Margaret Tudor = James IV
James V & Euphemia Elphinstone
Robert Stewart & unknown
Christian Stewart = John Mowat (son of Andrew Mowat and Ursula Tulloch)
Jean Mowat = David Heart
John Heart = Agnes Baxter
Agnes Heart = Robert Craighead
Katherine Craighead (d. 10 Apr 1754, Chilmark, Dukes County, Massachusetts) = (26 Sep 1693, Londonderry, Ireland) William Homes
Thomas Craighead (d. Apr 1739, Newville, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania) = Margaret Wallace (daughter of Michael Wallace and Barbara Cunningham)

celticp...@gmail.com

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Jul 22, 2019, 11:35:39 AM7/22/19
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Dear Patrick ~

Thank you for your post. Much appreciated.

Yes, Richard Saltonstall was listed in error as a descendant of Sir Robert de Holand, 1st Lord Holand, and Maud la Zouche. Mea culpa.

I can, however, add a new immigrant Jane Greene to the list to replace Richard Saltonstall. And Jan Wolfe has added two more: Katherine (Craighead) Homes and her brother Thomas Craighead.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

On Sunday, July 21, 2019 at 2:53:53 PM UTC-6, Patrick Nielsen Hayden wrote:

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Jul 22, 2019, 12:39:10 PM7/22/19
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Queen Margaret of Scotland also had another Holand line.

Robert de Holand = Maud la Zouche
Thomas de Holand = Joan of Kent
Thomas de Holand = Alice FitzAlan
Margaret de Holand = John Beaufort, Marquess of Somerset and Dorset
John Beaufort, Duke of Somerset = Margaret Beauchamp
Margaret Beaufort = Edmund Tudor, Earl of Richmond
Henry VII = Elizabeth of York
Margaret Tudor = James IV of Scotland, etc.

Or was there something wrong about this line, as shown in Hansen/Thompson, _Ancestors of Charles II_? I vaguely remember someone posting about it fairly recently.

Jan Wolfe

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Jul 22, 2019, 2:04:49 PM7/22/19
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On Monday, July 22, 2019 at 12:39:10 PM UTC-4, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Sunday, July 21, 2019 at 11:32:14 PM UTC-4, Jan Wolfe wrote:
...
I think that the error in _Ancestors of Charles II_ was conflating the two John Holands in the line to Eleanor Holand.

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Jul 22, 2019, 2:20:12 PM7/22/19
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Oh, okay, that sounds basically like what I was remembering.

I noticed that the NAS catalogue has a record of Jean Mowat acting with her eldest son, William Heart, in the Kirkwall, Orkney, Sheriff Court:

https://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/details.aspx?reference=SC11%2f5%2f1666%2f47&st=2&tc=y&tl=n&tn=n&tp=n&k=jean+mowat&ko=p&r=&ro=s&df=&dt=&di=y&dc=&dco=s&t=&to=o&

Jan Wolfe

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Jul 22, 2019, 3:32:27 PM7/22/19
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On Monday, July 22, 2019 at 2:20:12 PM UTC-4, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
...
> Oh, okay, that sounds basically like what I was remembering.
>
> I noticed that the NAS catalogue has a record of Jean Mowat acting with her eldest son, William Heart, in the Kirkwall, Orkney, Sheriff Court:
>
> https://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/details.aspx?reference=SC11%2f5%2f1666%2f47&st=2&tc=y&tl=n&tn=n&tp=n&k=jean+mowat&ko=p&r=&ro=s&df=&dt=&di=y&dc=&dco=s&t=&to=o&

Thanks for posting this record, John. Perhaps the date (1666) of this record further refines the death date of Jean Mowat's husband David Heart. We previously had "Jean Mowat relict of umqll David Heart of Rusland" as a witness in a baptism record dated 11 August 1672 as the date before which David died. (He was living on 9 August 1654 when he wrote a letter to the Earl of Dunfermline.)

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Jul 22, 2019, 3:52:24 PM7/22/19
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Right, I suspect David was dead at that time.

"T]he deciest [ie, deceased] David Heart, nottare publict" is mentioned here:

https://books.google.com/books?id=LLYHAAAAQAAJ&pg=RA2-PA102&dq=%22deciest+david+heart%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwji2cbnpcnjAhXhlOAKHZgcDKEQ6AEIMDAB#v=onepage&q=%22deciest%20david%20heart%22&f=false

Does the date just immediately above, "sextie-thrie," indicate 1663?

It seems that this document was copied and attested three times, probably with the middle instance attested by David Heart and William Heart.

Jan Wolfe

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Jul 22, 2019, 4:08:09 PM7/22/19
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On Monday, July 22, 2019 at 3:52:24 PM UTC-4, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Monday, July 22, 2019 at 3:32:27 PM UTC-4, Jan Wolfe wrote:
...
> > Thanks for posting this record, John. Perhaps the date (1666) of this record further refines the death date of Jean Mowat's husband David Heart. We previously had "Jean Mowat relict of umqll David Heart of Rusland" as a witness in a baptism record dated 11 August 1672 as the date before which David died. (He was living on 9 August 1654 when he wrote a letter to the Earl of Dunfermline.)
>
> Right, I suspect David was dead at that time.
>
> "T]he deciest [ie, deceased] David Heart, nottare publict" is mentioned here:
>
> https://books.google.com/books?id=LLYHAAAAQAAJ&pg=RA2-PA102&dq=%22deciest+david+heart%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwji2cbnpcnjAhXhlOAKHZgcDKEQ6AEIMDAB#v=onepage&q=%22deciest%20david%20heart%22&f=false
>
> Does the date just immediately above, "sextie-thrie," indicate 1663?
>
> It seems that this document was copied and attested three times, probably with the middle instance attested by David Heart and William Heart.

Yes, I had forgotten about this record. The date is 28 July 1663. David was presumably living on 8 March 1656, the date of this record, http://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/details.aspx?reference=GD190/2/213, which refers to "George Heart, son of David Heart of Rusland."

leslie...@gmail.com

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Jul 29, 2019, 6:16:28 PM7/29/19
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On Sunday, July 21, 2019 at 12:42:08 PM UTC-7, William Collins wrote:


> Here is a line I believe to be correct:
> Thomas de Holand 1319-1360
> Thomas de Holand 1350-1397
> Alianor or Eleanor Holand 1370-1405
> Joyce de Cherleton c1404-1446
> Joan or Jane de Tiptoft c.1421-aft.1491
> Isabel or Elizabeth Ingaldesthorpe c1441-1476
> Lucy Neville aft.1466-1534
> Anthony Browne 1500-1548
> Anthony Browne 1528-1592
> Anthony Browne 1552-1592
> Katherine Browne 1585-c.1651
> Katherine Tregonwell 1602-1663
> Elizabeth Olive Frampton 1632-1661


The Frampton family pedigree recorded in John Hutchins,
The History and Antiquities of the County of Dorset, vol. 1,
states that William Frampton and Katherine Tregonwell had
4 daughters.

One of them was Elizabeth, wife of Thomas Turberville:

https://archive.org/details/b30456496_0001/page/144


What evidence is there that Elizabeth moved across the country
to Northamptonshire, and was married to Daniel Wills?

Leslie

wjhonson

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Jul 30, 2019, 1:48:50 PM7/30/19
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> Anthony Browne 1552-1592
> Katherine Browne 1585-c.1651
> Katherine Tregonwell 1602-1663
> Elizabeth Olive Frampton 1632-1661
> John Wills (immigrant) 1660-1746



what is your source for this part of your descent?

gdco...@gmail.com

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Jul 31, 2019, 11:19:28 AM7/31/19
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Greetings,

Re. the error in Anc of Chas II. The error was the identification of the parents of Eleanor Holand (#1139). On p299, the cross refs for #2278 & #2279 should be to #534 Thomas Holand [2nd Earl of Kent] and #535 Alice Fitz Alan/Arundel).

The correction will appear in the Fall issue of TG. I never got a response from GBR, but the error also appears in RD900:107#4 in the description of Eleanor's parents, but does not affect that line of descent.

Greg

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Jul 31, 2019, 2:41:33 PM7/31/19
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There is one other error of which I'm aware, and I wonder if it is being corrected in the upcoming TG as well.

Somewhere in the MIDDLE of either the 10th or 11th generation of the Charles II ancestor table, there is a footnote to a couple, stating, concerning the wife, that "x is the MATRILINEAL ancestress of Charles II ... and of Queen Victoria."

Now, Charles II and Victoria may have the same matrilineal line for all I know, but it struck me as odd that they were claiming this for a woman who occurs in the middle of the particular generation of ancestors (obviously, the matrilineal ancestress is always the final entry in any given generation of an ancestor table).

I even tried to make their statement work by assuming the matrilineal ancestress occurred elsewhere within the list of ancestors due to cousin intermarriage and generations of variable lengths -- I could not make that solution work, either.

John Higgins

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Jul 31, 2019, 4:31:52 PM7/31/19
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On Wednesday, July 31, 2019 at 11:41:33 AM UTC-7, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:

> > Greg
>
> There is one other error of which I'm aware, and I wonder if it is being corrected in the upcoming TG as well.
>
> Somewhere in the MIDDLE of either the 10th or 11th generation of the Charles II ancestor table, there is a footnote to a couple, stating, concerning the wife, that "x is the MATRILINEAL ancestress of Charles II ... and of Queen Victoria."
>
> Now, Charles II and Victoria may have the same matrilineal line for all I know, but it struck me as odd that they were claiming this for a woman who occurs in the middle of the particular generation of ancestors (obviously, the matrilineal ancestress is always the final entry in any given generation of an ancestor table).
>
> I even tried to make their statement work by assuming the matrilineal ancestress occurred elsewhere within the list of ancestors due to cousin intermarriage and generations of variable lengths -- I could not make that solution work, either.

The person being referred to here in the Charles II ancestry is #1631, Blanca Núñez de la Cerda, who appears on page 232 of the book. She does indeed appear in the matrilineal line of both Charles II and Victoria. You can verify this through Genealogics:

For Charles II:
https://www.genealogics.org/lines.php?personID=I00000005&tree=LEO&parentset=0&showall=1&generations=4

For Victoria:
https://www.genealogics.org/lines.php?personID=I00000007&tree=LEO&parentset=0&showall=1&generations=4

What's curious to me is why the authors chose to mention the common matrilineal ancestor just at this point, since the most recent common matrilineal ancestor is Anna, Princess of Hungary who is #31.

As to why this matrilineal ancestor appears in the middle of a generation rather than at the end as you expect, that's simply due to "pedigree collapse" - i.e., the occurrence of duplicate ancestors. In the case of Charles II, the matrilineal ancestors do appear at the end of each generation through generation 8. At that point ancestors 254 Gaston IV, Count of Foix, and 255 Leonor, Queen of Navarre are referenced back to their earlier appearance at 212 and 213. From that point on, the matrilineal ancestry will appear somewhere in the middle of each generation.

So, no error to be corrected....

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Jul 31, 2019, 5:57:03 PM7/31/19
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Oh, okay ... rather confusing.

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Aug 1, 2019, 9:24:02 AM8/1/19
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Oh, I see what they did. The first time a duplicate couple occurred, they put in a brief reference, including just the names and a "see ..." note. In the next generation, they made no reference to the lines at all, just skipping over the numbers silently. At the end of each generation, an increasingly large gap occurs of these omitted, duplicated ancestors.

That might have been the way to proceed in a serial article, where conceivably one entire installment might, embarrassingly, be nothing but a meager skeleton list of duplicated names with "see" notes.

In book form, I think it would have been wise to include every duplicated name. It creates a very wrong impression to someone who is not paying attention to skipped numbers.

John Higgins

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Aug 1, 2019, 4:27:30 PM8/1/19
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I don't think the method of handling duplicate ancestors in an ancestor list that is used in the Charles II ancestry is unusual or particularly novel. To cite just a couple of examples, it is used in Gerald Paget's ancestry of Prince Charles and in Ronnie Bodine's ancestry of Dorothea Poyntz. I'm sure there are other examples.

Repeating duplicate ancestors over multiple generations quickly becomes a massive waste of space - particularly when duplicates first appear in relatively early generations. To cite a good example, in the ancestry of Prince Charles repeats first show up in generation 6, which has only 32 people in it. By the time you get to generation 10, roughly half of the 1,024 slots in that generation are filled by repeated ancestors. Including duplicated ancestors in every generation would greatly increase the length of a printed publication - with only limited, if any, benefit. And it gets much worse the further out you go.

For Charles II, the first duplicates also occur in generation 6. I can't readily project the cascading effect of duplicate ancestors in subsequent generations for Charles II, but I imagine that it would not be significantly different than the results for Prince Charles.

Perhaps this is a matter of personal taste, but I think that most genealogists are familiar with - and comfortable with - the practice of omitting full details for duplicate ancestors after the first occurrence.

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Aug 1, 2019, 4:44:45 PM8/1/19
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I still don't think it's too ideal, despite being used by R. Boddine and Paget. Suppose you are actually trying to figure out how inbred someone was? You would have to spot breaks in numbers, and work back, possibly four or five generations, to have the vaguest idea of the missing names.

In a way it covers up the enormous inbreeding of some of these people and the tedious futility of tracing ALL their ancestors, I suppose.
Message has been deleted

William Collins

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Aug 2, 2019, 6:57:34 PM8/2/19
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On Saturday, July 20, 2019 at 2:02:32 PM UTC-4, celticp...@gmail.com wrote:
The Frampton - Wills marriage comes from Author: James Daniel Reeve Title: Wills Family History Book 1302 Keswick Ave. Haddon Hts. NJ 08035 at the time of the publication Gloucester County Historical Society

John Higgins

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Aug 2, 2019, 8:32:06 PM8/2/19
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On Friday, August 2, 2019 at 3:57:34 PM UTC-7, William Collins wrote:

> The Frampton - Wills marriage comes from Author: James Daniel Reeve Title: Wills Family History Book 1302 Keswick Ave. Haddon Hts. NJ 08035 at the time of the publication Gloucester County Historical Society

The title of the book appears to actually be "The Wills Family Tree", apparently published in 1991. According to Worldcat, only one library in the US has a copy, Rutgers University in New Jersey.

If you have copied any material from the book, perhaps you could tell us what sources it may list for the parentage of Elizabeth Olive Frampton.

The source as cited above is exactly the same as appears in a Wikitree profile for Elizabeth Olive Frampton, which appears to have been lifted from some other online genealogy - probably Geni. A subsequent contributor to Wikitree pointed (as Leslie Mahler did earlier in this thread) that Elizabeth's parents William Frampton and Katherine Tregonwell had a daughter Elizabeth, but she was married to Thomas Turberville. That contributor suggested that Elizabeth Frampton who married Daniel Wills should be disconnected from these parents. Based on the current state of the evidence, I think that's an appropriate decision.

https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Frampton-122

wjhonson

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Aug 5, 2019, 12:49:48 PM8/5/19
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When WorldCat only shows one copy of a book, this is a red flag. Any person, self-published, and other, can deposit a book in a library. That is not a good recommend for that work being a worth-while source. Esp. as this was published so recently as 1991.

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Aug 9, 2019, 3:19:45 PM8/9/19
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I just noticed that two pieces of furniture, an armchair and a dressing table, that descended through Jan's and my Craighead line -- Margaret Homes and her husband John Allen of Martha's Vineyard -- are featured in _Harbor & Home: Furniture of Southeastern Massachusetts, 1710-1850_.

https://books.google.com/books?id=f73DOPoRibIC&pg=PA61&lpg=PA61&dq=%22john+allen%22+vineyard+1767+chair&source=bl&ots=bizgGb4m-s&sig=ACfU3U3-RNZ0OXdk7obTfvj_x56VfKpLsw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj3kvHev_bjAhWsmOAKHVpuAbcQ6AEwAHoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22john%20allen%22%20vineyard%201767%20chair&f=false

Of course, these items were purchased during their marriage (presumably), and so were not inherited from their ancestors.

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Aug 9, 2019, 3:30:43 PM8/9/19
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Interestingly, there is a HEART at the top of the crest on the back of the chair ...!

I suppose I should read the entire description!

Jan Wolfe

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Aug 9, 2019, 4:59:16 PM8/9/19
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On Friday, August 9, 2019 at 3:30:43 PM UTC-4, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Friday, August 9, 2019 at 3:19:45 PM UTC-4, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
...
> > I just noticed that two pieces of furniture, an armchair and a dressing table, that descended through Jan's and my Craighead line -- Margaret Homes and her husband John Allen of Martha's Vineyard -- are featured in _Harbor & Home: Furniture of Southeastern Massachusetts, 1710-1850_.
> >
> > https://books.google.com/books?id=f73DOPoRibIC&pg=PA61&lpg=PA61&dq=%22john+allen%22+vineyard+1767+chair&source=bl&ots=bizgGb4m-s&sig=ACfU3U3-RNZ0OXdk7obTfvj_x56VfKpLsw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj3kvHev_bjAhWsmOAKHVpuAbcQ6AEwAHoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22john%20allen%22%20vineyard%201767%20chair&f=false
> >
> > Of course, these items were purchased during their marriage (presumably), and so were not inherited from their ancestors.
>
> Interestingly, there is a HEART at the top of the crest on the back of the chair ...!
>
> I suppose I should read the entire description!

Very cool! The other piece of furniture said to have been owned by John and Margaret (Homes) Allen is described in the book on page 224, https://books.google.com/books?id=f73DOPoRibIC&pg=PA224 and pictured on the following page.

I, too, was intrigued by the heart used in the decoration. Can anyone describe the crest by looking at the photo? (I couldn't see it clearly even when I enlarged it as much as Google allowed and snipped it.) The author states, "For the intricate outline of the crest, he [the maker of the chair] may have turned to an imported English looking glass for inspiration." The citation for footnote 2 following this statement is, I think, on page 403, which unfortunately is not part of the Google Books preview of the book.

Speaking of John Allen, there is an ongoing Allen y-DNA study that appears to have found that John Allen's grandfather Samuel Allen of Braintree (d. 1669) and George Allen of Sandwich (d. 1648, and ancestor of Barack Obama, Gerald Ford, and Winston Churchill) are of the same male line. Perhaps that will turn out to be a useful clue in finding the Allen ancestors in England. (Just thought I should mention that to bring the discussion back to the possibility of finding a late medieval or early modern connection in this discussion.)

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Aug 9, 2019, 5:34:26 PM8/9/19
to
There is another HEART on the chair, directly below the first one, and at the very bottom of the chair-back.

(We find this interesting because of the descent going through Jean Mowat, wife of David Heart and mother of the Rev. John Heart.)

Peter Stewart

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Aug 9, 2019, 6:56:17 PM8/9/19
to
On 10-Aug-19 6:59 AM, Jan Wolfe wrote:
> On Friday, August 9, 2019 at 3:30:43 PM UTC-4, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On Friday, August 9, 2019 at 3:19:45 PM UTC-4, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
> ...
>>> I just noticed that two pieces of furniture, an armchair and a dressing table, that descended through Jan's and my Craighead line -- Margaret Homes and her husband John Allen of Martha's Vineyard -- are featured in _Harbor & Home: Furniture of Southeastern Massachusetts, 1710-1850_.
>>>
>>> https://books.google.com/books?id=f73DOPoRibIC&pg=PA61&lpg=PA61&dq=%22john+allen%22+vineyard+1767+chair&source=bl&ots=bizgGb4m-s&sig=ACfU3U3-RNZ0OXdk7obTfvj_x56VfKpLsw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj3kvHev_bjAhWsmOAKHVpuAbcQ6AEwAHoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22john%20allen%22%20vineyard%201767%20chair&f=false
>>>
>>> Of course, these items were purchased during their marriage (presumably), and so were not inherited from their ancestors.
>>
>> Interestingly, there is a HEART at the top of the crest on the back of the chair ...!
>>
>> I suppose I should read the entire description!
>
> Very cool! The other piece of furniture said to have been owned by John and Margaret (Homes) Allen is described in the book on page 224, https://books.google.com/books?id=f73DOPoRibIC&pg=PA224 and pictured on the following page.
>
> I, too, was intrigued by the heart used in the decoration. Can anyone describe the crest by looking at the photo? (I couldn't see it clearly even when I enlarged it as much as Google allowed and snipped it.) The author states, "For the intricate outline of the crest, he [the maker of the chair] may have turned to an imported English looking glass for inspiration." The citation for footnote 2 following this statement is, I think, on page 403, which unfortunately is not part of the Google Books preview of the book.
>
> Speaking of John Allen, there is an ongoing Allen y-DNA study that appears to have found that John Allen's grandfather Samuel Allen of Braintree (d. 1669) and George Allen of Sandwich (d. 1648, and ancestor of Barack Obama, Gerald Ford, and Winston Churchill) are of the same male line.

I assume this descent to Churchill came through his Jerome ancestry -
can anyone tell the newsgroup if there is documentation for the claim
sometimes made that Churchill's mother had Native American ancestry?

If not, it would be interesting to know what other basis there may have
been for the idea originally. I gather that many American families pass
on legends of this kind - now that Elizabeth Warren has run into
politically-correct - not to say proto-racist - criticism for this, on
the grounds that a small part of her lineage is not pure enough to
justify identifying with it in case it may offend someone with more of
the blood she is proud of, I wonder if some have felt bullied into
dropping such traditions.

Peter Stewart


Jan Wolfe

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Aug 9, 2019, 7:09:18 PM8/9/19
to
Katherine (Craighead) Homes likely knew her grandparents John and Agnes (Baxter) Heart well as she was a teenager when they died. She may well have known something of her family history from conversations with them.

The furniture book mentions that the maker of the chair is unknown. It occurred to me that John and Margaret (Craighead) Allen's son-in-law Handley Chipman was a cabinet maker (as well as a judge). Handley Chipman and Jane Allen were married in 1740, more that a quarter century before John and Margaret Allen died.

Handley Chipman did not mention in his family history memoir the ancestors of Katherine Craighead except to say that they had "suffered terribly formerly under the persecution of the Papists against the Protestants" which he offers as a reason for the emigration from Ireland of the Homes family at the end of the reign of Queen Ann.

taf

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Aug 9, 2019, 11:23:12 PM8/9/19
to
On Friday, August 9, 2019 at 3:56:17 PM UTC-7, Peter Stewart wrote:
> I assume this descent to Churchill came through his Jerome ancestry -
> can anyone tell the newsgroup if there is documentation for the claim
> sometimes made that Churchill's mother had Native American ancestry?

Looking at online pedigrees, I am not seeing anything that looks likely.

> If not, it would be interesting to know what other basis there may have
> been for the idea originally.

God only knows. Such traditions were not uncommon in the American northeast where Churchill's mother was from, and almost always false. Probably arose from a combination of a desire for exotic ancestry and the fetishinzing of the 'noble savage'. (With the coincidence inescapable irony that the same people who viewed themselves enriched by such claims to minuscule amounts of Native American ancestry often looked down on those who had significantly more.)

> I gather that many American families pass
> on legends of this kind

I had four different ones in my family.

> - now that Elizabeth Warren has run into
> politically-correct - not to say proto-racist - criticism for this, on
> the grounds that a small part of her lineage is not pure enough to
> justify identifying with it in case it may offend someone with more of
> the blood she is proud of, I wonder if some have felt bullied into
> dropping such traditions.

Well, I bullied my family into dropping theirs, because they were all BS. One was because a famous person who had the same surname as my great-great-grandmother had a Native American wife (ignoring the fact that the marriage was childless, and he was my g-g-grandmother's second cousin). One was because a German-born ancestor had a ruddy complexion and was called Indian John (or maybe Indian Johannes) because he was thus a 'redskin'. One was because an ancestral uncle was killed by Delawares, and his son kidnapped, taken to Canada, and eventually became a tribal member, but that doesn't somehow extend to his uncle's family. One was because the marriage record failed to give the woman's surname, so 'she must have been an Indian'.

The Churchill claim could be of similar ilk, or it could just be one of those things that journos and biographers make up because they want it to be true.

taf

Peter Stewart

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Aug 10, 2019, 3:25:30 AM8/10/19
to
Thanks - I wouldn't call it bullying to insist on setting aside a false
claim, but this is not what happened with Senator Warren: in her case
the criticism came mainly from some Native Americans assuming
proprietary rights over their ethnicity and barring from it anyone whose
blood was too mixed for their liking. And of course some Republican
opportunists, like the President who called her Pocohontas in a misfired
insult. Evidently he didn't have the wit to use a fictitious name like
Minnehaha, that would have been more effective for his petty purpose.

Peter Stewart

P J Evans

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Aug 10, 2019, 11:18:31 AM8/10/19
to
On Friday, August 9, 2019 at 3:56:17 PM UTC-7, Peter Stewart wrote:
> On 10-Aug-19 6:59 AM, Jan Wolfe wrote:
> > On Friday, August 9, 2019 at 3:30:43 PM UTC-4, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >> On Friday, August 9, 2019 at 3:19:45 PM UTC-4, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > ...
[snipped]
> > Speaking of John Allen, there is an ongoing Allen y-DNA study that appears to have found that John Allen's grandfather Samuel Allen of Braintree (d. 1669) and George Allen of Sandwich (d. 1648, and ancestor of Barack Obama, Gerald Ford, and Winston Churchill) are of the same male line.
>
> I assume this descent to Churchill came through his Jerome ancestry -
> can anyone tell the newsgroup if there is documentation for the claim
> sometimes made that Churchill's mother had Native American ancestry?
>
> If not, it would be interesting to know what other basis there may have
> been for the idea originally. I gather that many American families pass
> on legends of this kind - now that Elizabeth Warren has run into
> politically-correct - not to say proto-racist - criticism for this, on
> the grounds that a small part of her lineage is not pure enough to
> justify identifying with it in case it may offend someone with more of
> the blood she is proud of, I wonder if some have felt bullied into
> dropping such traditions.
>
> Peter Stewart

I know someone who claims Native American ancestry based on his family being from Oklahoma, and an earlier, female, ancestor in Ohio having an unknown surname. I found no evidence for either one.

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Aug 12, 2019, 12:53:40 PM8/12/19
to
Handley Chipman apparently thought the Allen line was Welsh:

"My said Father in Law, John Allen, Esq'r, was as to the family as I think I have been informed, of Welch Extract. What led the ancient father of father Allen to Settle on the Vineyard I do not recollect that I ever heard, but the Allen family became ... As to my Father in Law he was a very stirring driving gentleman for the World. He acquired a considable Estate, was Sheriff in his younger years, then a judge of ...

https://books.google.com/books?id=v5EeAQAAMAAJ&q=%22john+allen%22+vineyard+sheriff&dq=%22john+allen%22+vineyard+sheriff&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjD__m05P3jAhWumuAKHYvGCHUQ6AEwCXoECAAQAg

I wonder how that matches with the DNA study?

Jan Wolfe

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Aug 12, 2019, 2:52:20 PM8/12/19
to
Here is the link to the website of a researcher, John Robb, of the Allen patrilineage study, http://www.johnbrobb.com/. Perusing the website will provide some idea of the author's work and the conventions he uses in his writing. Click on the surnames tab to see links to two Allen patrilineage studies. The second (Patrilineage 2) is the one about George Allen and Samuel Allen. The pdf of the current version of John Robb's article is here, http://www.johnbrobb.com/Content/ALLEN/R/P02-Two-NE-Patriarchs.pdf.

According to the study, the Haplogroup of the "Allen Patrilineage 2" descendants is R-L21->DF13->ZZ10->BY12512. See http://www.johnbrobb.com/JBR-ALLEN-R.htm#George1_and_Samuel1.

Researches interested in immigrants Samuel or George Allen have typically looked in Somerset for them. I, too, had noted Handley Chipman's comment and noted that Wales and Sommerset are geographically close. For the original of Handley Chipman's memoir, see http://openarchive.acadiau.ca/cdm/compoundobject/collection/HChipman/id/5/rec/13.

Nora Ellen Groce in _Everyone Here Spoke Sign Language_ suggests that James Allen and James Skiffe of Sandwich were from Kent. See https://books.google.com/books?id=m1sAHKKKs8AC&pg=PA35. James Allen was a son of Samuel Allen and the father of the John Allen who married Margaret Homes.

Also see Groce's paper https://www.researchgate.net/publication/32899159_Everyone_Here_Spoke_Sign_Language for Groce's discussion of the attempt by Alexander Graham Bell to understand the hereditary deafness historically prevalent on Martha's Vineyard. Some of the section of Groce's book about the hereditary nature of the deafness is available in the Google preview starting here, https://books.google.com/books?id=m1sAHKKKs8AC&pg=PA21.

I just now downloaded Groce's dissertation from Proquest and will report here if she justifies her claim about the origin of James Allen.

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Aug 12, 2019, 3:11:48 PM8/12/19
to
Interesting about the deafness prevalent on Martha's Vineyard. I am a descendant (another way) of Jonathan Lambert, one of the early deaf residents of the Vineyard.

https://hearinghealthmatters.org/hearinginternational/2014/deafness-vineyard-part-iii/

The link above mentions the possible connection of the early Lamberts with deaf traits. (I think, however, the known Lambert/ Lumbert/ Lombard origin is in Somerset or Dorset, per TAG articles.)

Abigail Linnell _may_, mother of Jonathan Lambert, have a Kentish connection, although she is not the daughter of Peninah House/ Howse, kinswoman of Rev. John Lathrop's wife. Peninah was her step-mother, I believe (2nd wife of Robert Linnell). The House family had Kentish ties, so perhaps the Linnell/ Linnetts did, as well.

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Aug 12, 2019, 3:15:02 PM8/12/19
to

CORRECTION: Abigail Linnell, the mother of Jonathan Lambert, MAY have had a Kentish connection, although she is not the daughter of Peninah House/ Howse, kinswoman of Rev. John Lathrop's wife. Peninah was her step-mother, I believe (2nd wife of Robert Linnell). The House family had Kentish ties, so perhaps the Linnell/ Linnetts did, as well.

...The Eddys also definitely had Kentish ties. Jonathan Lambert's wife was Elizabeth Eddy.

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Aug 28, 2019, 1:20:51 PM8/28/19
to
It is somewhat interesting to note that the Nielsen-Hayden website shows that a descendant of Catherine (Craighead) Homes intermarried with a descendant of her brother, Rev. Thomas Craighead, also an immigrant.

Eli Todd Tappan, mathematician and educator, was a descendant of Catherine Homes.

His wife, Lydia Lucretia McDowell, seems to have been a descendant of Rev. Thomas Craighead and wife Margaret Wallace.

Their respective charts are below:

http://nielsenhayden.com/genealogy-tng//pedigree.php?personID=I20864&tree=nh1

http://nielsenhayden.com/genealogy-tng//pedigree.php?personID=I20865&tree=nh1

Unknown

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Aug 28, 2019, 2:57:41 PM8/28/19
to
On 2019-08-28 17:20:49 +0000, ravinma...@yahoo.com said:

> It is somewhat interesting to note that the Nielsen-Hayden website
> shows that a descendant of Catherine (Craighead) Homes intermarried
> with a descendant of her brother, Rev. Thomas Craighead, also an
> immigrant.
>
> Eli Todd Tappan, mathematician and educator, was a descendant of
> Catherine Homes.
>
> His wife, Lydia Lucretia McDowell, seems to have been a descendant of
> Rev. Thomas Craighead and wife Margaret Wallace.
>
> Their respective charts are below:
>
> http://nielsenhayden.com/genealogy-tng//pedigree.php?personID=I20864&tree=nh1
>
> http://nielsenhayden.com/genealogy-tng//pedigree.php?personID=I20865&tree=nh1

Oddly enough, we were in the Irish Emigration Museum in Dublin last
week, and were startled to come across a display about the Rev. William
Homes, husband of Katherine Craighead. "Donegal-born Holmes settled as
the minister in Chilmark, Massachusetts. He published books and his
diary is a valuable source of local historical information. Holmes's
son Robert was a sea captain, and through him Holmes encouraged
hundreds of Ulster-Scots to emigrate to America. In 1716, Robert Holmes
married Benjamin Franklin's sister Mary."

Eli Todd Tappan was a son of Benjamin Tappan, Jr., an early US Senator
from Ohio. In his youth, Benjamin Jr. studied painting under Gilbert
Stuart, which is probably how his otherwise not-amazingly-distinguished
parents Benjamin Tappan, Sr. and Sarah Holmes (a great-granddaughter of
the Rev. William Homes) got their portraits painted by Stuart -- or,
more likely, by someone in the large Stuart workshop, working in the
highly recognizable Gilbert Stuart style.

--
Patrick Nielsen Hayden
nielsenhayden.com
http://nielsenhayden.com/genealogy-tng/

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Aug 28, 2019, 4:00:04 PM8/28/19
to
Yes, I had seen the Stuart painting of Sarah Homes Tappan at least (red hair, etc.).

The portrait has been spoofed by Federico Manfredi ...

https://piknow.net/discovery/mrs-tappan-and-i-gilbert-stuart-sarah-p-Bp6yLV_BvLN

celticp...@gmail.com

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Aug 28, 2019, 4:33:52 PM8/28/19
to
Dear Newsgroup ~

Below is my line of own descent from Sir Robert de Holand, 1at Lord Holand, died 1328, and his wife, Maud la Zouche. My late wife Rozanne shared the same descent as I do from the New World immigrant, John Baynard, Gentleman, of Maryland. So my children and my soon to be born grandson have not one but two descents from the Holand-la Zouche couple as outlined below.

1. Sir Robert de Holand, 1st Lord Holand, died 1328, married Maud la Zouche.
2. Elizabeth de Holand, ddied 1387, married Sir Henry Fitz Roger, of Chewton, Somerset.
3.John Fitz Roger, of Cherwton, Somerset, died 1370-72, married Alice.
4. Elizabeth Fitz Roger, died 1414, married Richard Stucley, Esq., of Merston, Sussex.
5. Hugh Stucle, Esq., of Affeton (in West Wolrington), Devon, died 1457, married Katherine Affeton.
6. Nicholas Stukeley, Esq., of Affeton (in West Wolrington), Devon, died 1488, married Thomasine Cokeworthy.
7. Joan Stukeley, married Philip Baynard, Esq., of Lackham, Wiltshire, died 1522.
8. Robert Baynard, Esq., of Lackham, Wiltshire, died 1537, married Anne Blake.
9. Thomas Baynard, of Wanstrow, Somerset, died 1608, married Elizabeth Barnes.
10. Henry Baynard, Gent., of Blagdon, Somerset, died 1621, married Anne Hobbes.
11. Thomas Baynard, Gent., of Blagdon, Somerset, died 1652, married Martha Prickman.
12. Thomas Baynard, Esq., of Blagdon, Somerset, died 1691, married Mary Bennett.
13. John Baynard, Gent., of Talbot Co., Maryland, died 1704, married Elizabeth Blackwell.

Do you have a descent from Sir Robert de Holand and Maud la Zouche? If so, I'd very much appreciate seeing it here on the newsgroup.

Eric Kniffin

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Aug 28, 2019, 8:05:40 PM8/28/19
to
>Do you descend from Sir Robert de Holand and Maud la Zouche? If so, I'd very
>much like to see your list of descent from this couple posted here on the
>newsgroup.

Well, now, that's a very interesting question. Interesting, because I have never seen Richard Woodhull on a list of Gateway Ancestors. It seems likely Walter of Flanders fought with the Conqueror at Hastings, even if he isn't mentioned by any of the sources that would make him an official Companion of William the Conqueror. That seems noteworthy in itself. And Richard descends from Walter, and is the first Woodhull to come to the US. But he's never mentioned as a Gateway Ancestor. I'm not at all concerned with him being on that list (it seems like a very arbitrary list), except insofar as it would mean this line of descent is correct:

Robert de Holand & Maud la Zouche
Thomas Holland & Joan, the Fair Maid of Kent
Thomas Holland & Alice FitzAlan
Eleanor Holland & Thomas Montagu
Alice Montagu & Richard Neville
Alice Neville & Henry Fitzhugh
Elizabeth Fitzhugh & William Parr
William Parr & Mary Salisbury
Elizabeth Parr & Nicholas Woodhull
Fulke Woodhull & Alice Coles
Lawrence Woodhull & _______
Richard Woodhull (1620-1691) & (Deborah or Dorothy)
Ann Woodhull & Daniel Tourneur
Woodhull Tourneur & Hannah Lawrence
James Tourneur & Sarah Oblenis
Sarah Turneur & Jan Stagg
Cornelius Stagg & Catherine Paull
Margaret Stagg & Solomon Gilbert
Maria Louisa Gilbert & Stephen Martindale Anderson
Gracie Adelaide Anderson & Francis Desales Chapman
Ignatius Alfred Chapman & Loretta Berean
Alfred Kniffin & Virginia Horton
ME

gdco...@gmail.com

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Aug 28, 2019, 9:16:18 PM8/28/19
to

I have three descents; the first is the most interesting, through a 19th century gateway, the next two by more traditional gateways, Obadiah Bruen, and Rose Stoughton. Sources, vitals, and spouses can be found starting here: http://gdcooke.org/ss/default.aspx/page/org2-o/p4358.htm

Through a 19th Century gateway
21 Sir Robert de Holand, Knt., 1st Lord Holand
20 Sir Thomas de Holand, K.G., 1st Earl of Kent
19 Sir Thomas de Holand, K. G., 2nd Earl of Kent, Lord Holand, 6th Lord Wake
18 Eleanor Holand
17 Anne Mortimer
16 Sir Richard Plantagenet, K.G., 3rd Duke of York
15 Edward IV, King of England
14 Margaret Plantagenet
13 Sybil Lumley
12 Sir William de Hilton, Knt.
11 Elizabeth Hilton
10 Katherine Thirkeld
9 Mary Lacy
8 Frances St. Quintin
7 Daniel Lascelles
6 Edward Lascelles
5 General Francis Lascelles
4 Jane Lascelles b. 19 Aug 1776, d. 22 Jul 1863
3 Mary Maria Hester Wynyard b. 23 May 1815, d. 18 Dec 1893
2 Matilda Caroline Higginson b. 27 Aug 1841, d. 1 Apr 1909
1 Mary Elizabeth Robinson b. 11 Mar 1869, d. 8 Jul 1955
Harriet Hanson Robinson b. 26 May 1895, d. 19 Dec 1974
Dorothy Harriet Pierce b. 6 Feb 1927 d. 13 Nov 2013
Gregory Cooke (me)

Through Rose Stoughton
21 Sir Robert de Holand, Knt., 1st Lord Holand
18 Margaret de Holand
17 Sir Roger La Warre, Knt., 3rd Lord de la Warre
16 Joan La Warre
15 Reynold West, 6th Lord la Warre, 3rd Lord West
14 Mary West
13 Roger Lewknor
12 Edmund Lewknor
11 Elizabeth Lewknor
10 Sir Lawrence Stoughton, Knt., M.P.
9 Anthony Stoughton
8 Rose Stoughton
7 Ann Otis
6 Nathaniel Austin
5 Phebe Austin
4 John Hanson
3 William Hanson
2 Harriet Jane Hanson
1 Edward Warrington Robinson
Harriet Hanson Robinson b. 26 May 1895, d. 19 Dec 1974
Dorothy Harriet Pierce b. 6 Feb 1927 d. 13 Nov 2013
Gregory Cooke (me)

Through Obadiah Bruen
21 Sir Robert de Holand, Knt., 1st Lord Holand
20 Maud Holand
19 Sir Robert de Swynnerton, Knt., 4th Lord Swinnerton
18 Maud de Swynnerton
17 Alice Ipstones
16 Sir Randolph Brereton, Knt.
15 Randolph Brereton, Esq.
14 Ralph Brereton, Esq.
13 Margery Brereton
12 Sir Thomas Holford, Knt.
11 Dorothy Holford
10 John Bruen, Esq.
9 Obadiah Bruen
8 John Bruen
7 Sarah Bruen
6 Abigail Kitchell
5 Affia Crane
4 Zilla Pierson
3 Aletta Carter
2 Ephraim Squire Force
1 Walter Sylvester Force
Adele La Force b. 18 Oct 1893, d. 5 Oct 1990
Donald Force Cooke b. 10 Jan 1923 d. 19 May 2017
Gregory Cooke (me)

Patrick Nielsen Hayden

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Aug 30, 2019, 5:35:48 AM8/30/19
to
On 2019-08-28 20:00:01 +0000, ravinma...@yahoo.com said:

On 2019-08-28 20:00:01 +0000, ravinma...@yahoo.com said:

> Yes, I had seen the Stuart painting of Sarah Homes Tappan at least (red
> hair, etc.).
>
> The portrait has been spoofed by Federico Manfredi ...
>
> https://piknow.net/discovery/mrs-tappan-and-i-gilbert-stuart-sarah-p-Bp6yLV_BvLN
>

I had not seen that! Evidently it's also viewable here:

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bp6yLV_BvLN/

...from whence one can also see Manfredi's spoofs of several other
well-known paintings. I particularly liked his version of Marat in his
bath.

We have drifted well afield of the marriage date of Sir Robert de
Holand. I'll stop now.


Message has been deleted

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Sep 4, 2019, 1:31:25 PM9/4/19
to
Speaking of portraits, there is one of Mrs. Heart's (Jean Mowat's) cousin Karen Mowat here:

https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Mowat

Though Karen didn't share the descent from Queen Margaret, she was supposedly the richest heiress in Norway at the time of her marriage (heiress of Hatteberg).

JBrand

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Sep 28, 2019, 11:42:55 PM9/28/19
to
Portraits of Karen's parents, Axel Mowat and Karen Bildt ...

https://www.grind.no/en/people-and-society/great-landowners-gentry-and-monasteries#title3

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Oct 1, 2019, 4:34:59 PM10/1/19
to
The 1684 funeral escutcheon of Holger Rosenkrantz, son of the baron of Rosendal, apparently includes a pedigree of Mowat of Hugoland ...

https://www.google.com/books/edition/Index_to_Genealogies_Birthbriefs_and_Fun/-YxAAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=hugoland+mowat&pg=PA47&printsec=frontcover

Jan Wolfe

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Oct 1, 2019, 8:15:19 PM10/1/19
to
On Tuesday, October 1, 2019 at 4:34:59 PM UTC-4, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
> The 1684 funeral escutcheon of Holger Rosenkrantz, son of the baron of Rosendal, apparently includes a pedigree of Mowat of Hugoland ...
>
> https://www.google.com/books/edition/Index_to_Genealogies_Birthbriefs_and_Fun/-YxAAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=hugoland+mowat&pg=PA47&printsec=frontcover

Here is another link to the same index, https://www.electricscotland.com/books/pdf/lordlyonindex.pdf#page=51.

The citation is to 112-6 which is described in the last page of the preface here, https://www.electricscotland.com/books/pdf/lordlyonindex.pdf#page=8.

Any idea about how to see this pedigree?

Jan Wolfe

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Oct 1, 2019, 8:21:22 PM10/1/19
to

JBrand

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Oct 2, 2019, 11:06:44 AM10/2/19
to
Right, it would be fun to see sometime. Some documentation kept in the Lyon office, apparently...

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Oct 2, 2019, 12:31:04 PM10/2/19
to
Elsie Trondsdaughter's father, admiral Christopher Throndsen/ Tronds, anachronistically called "Rustung," was apparently an ancestor of Alexander Pushkin the poet through Christopher's descendant Laurits Galtung.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristoffer_Throndsen

Laurits Galtung was the one who murdered Axel Mowat, Jr., leaving Karin the sister a great heiress.

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Oct 3, 2019, 3:16:20 PM10/3/19
to
Of course, there is also the de Holand line to James IV, as well ...

Robert de Holand = Maud la Zouche
Thomas de Holand = Joan of Kent
Thomas de Holand = Alice FitzAlan
Margaret de Holand = John Beaufort, Marquess of Somerset and Dorset
Joan Beaufort = James I of Scotland
James II = Mary of Guelders
James III = Margaret of Denmark
James IV = Margaret Tudor

ravinma...@yahoo.com

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Oct 4, 2019, 1:10:49 PM10/4/19
to
I wanted to suggest a slightly different solution to the problem of the Cunningham family behind Rev. Thomas Craighead's wife Margaret Wallace (well, there were multiple Cunninghams behind her, but I'm interested in her mother, Barbara Cunningham's, agnate line). Jan Wolfe has her own tentative solution on her website:

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bobwolfe/gen/person/g11467.htm

It is a pretty confusing matter to me, but I speculate that John Cunningham "of Dalkeith [also called Dankeith]" who married Janet Lockhart MAY have actually been descended from the Clonbeith Cunninghams, not the Dalkeith or Dankeith Cunninghams.

It looks like Daniel Cunningham of Dalkeith (m. Mary Wallace) and his son William Cunningham (m. Jean Cunningham), at some time, probably around 1623, SWITCHED their land holdings with a William Cunningham of Clonbeith (who had m. [1] Agnes Cunningham; m. [2] Sarah Jowssie or Josie). The full text is on this webpage:

Evidence from the National Records of Scotland

2 January 1623: Extract registered contract between Daniel Conynghame of Dankeith and William Conynghame, his eldest son and apparent heir with the consent of Mary Wallace, spouse to the said Daniel and of Jean Conynghame, spouse of the said William, on the one part and William Conynghame of Clonbeith with the consent of Sara Jowssie, his spouse and of John Conynghame, his eldest lawful son and apparent heir procreated between him and unquhile Agnes Conynghame, his first spouse and also the said Sara with consent of Sir William Nisbet of Dean, knight and John Stark of Auchinwoll, her loving friends, on the other part whereby the said first parties sell to said William Cuninghame and the heirs lawfully procreated between him and unquhile Agnes Conynghame, his first spouse, which failing to his own nearest and lawful heirs and assignees whomsoever, 44s 6d land of old extent called Dankeith and Haggis of Dankeith, 2 merk land of old extent of the Freiries of Dankeith, that 16s land of old extent of the 4lib land of Symontoun called the Craigis, the Temple lands of Hoilhous, Templehou and yard in Symontoun, all lying in the parish of Stewarton, Bailliary of Kylestewart and Sheriffdom of Ayr, for which causes the said William Cuninghame with the consent of his spouse and son, dispones to said Daniel Coninghame of Dankeith and Mary Wallace, his spouse and the longest liver of them two during all the days of their lifetime, and to William Cuninghame, their son and the heirs lawfully procreated or to be procreated between him and Jean Cunynghame, his spouse, which failing to the said William, his own nearest and lawful heirs and assignees whomsoever, in fee, the foresaid lands of Clonbeith and Darmule. Dated at Edinburgh. Recorded in the Books of Council and Session, 16th November 1630. National Records of Scotland, Papers of the Montgomerie Family, Earls of Eglinton, reference GD3/1/3/5/16

See ...

https://www.geni.com/people/John-Stark-of-Auchinvole/6000000084911671057

Notice that while nothing is said about any living children of William Cunningham and his wife Jean Cunningham, the other party, William Cunningham "OF CLONBEITH," certainly had a son John living in 1623:

"...William Conynghame of Clonbeith with the consent of Sara Jowssie, his spouse and of John Conynghame, his eldest lawful son and apparent heir procreated between him and unquhile Agnes Conynghame, his first spouse and also the said Sara [i.e., second spouse] with consent of Sir William Nisbet of Dean, knight and John Stark ..., her loving friends ..."

Then, in September 1631, John Cunningham of Dalkeith / Dankeith, in a document in the NAS catalog, seems clearly to indicate his own father William was the same one who married, second, to Sarah Jowsie:

Instrument of sasine in favour of Sir William Cunyngham of Caprintoun of the lands of Craigis in the parish of Symontoun following on a bond of warrandice by John Cunynghame, younger of Dankeith, son of William Cunynghame of Dankeithe, in respect of Sir William's cautionry in the contract of marriage between William and umquile SARAH JOSIE dated 23 July 1614.

http://catalogue.nrscotland.gov.uk/nrsonlinecatalogue/details.aspx?reference=GD149/141

So, in other words, the William who married Sarah Jowssie / Josie was not Sir William, first party named in the sasine, but the William who was John Cunningham's OWN FATHER. I speculate that after they switched lands, the OTHER William (m. Jowssie) would henceforth be known as "of Dankeith."

John, later of Dankeith/ Dalkeith, was by the first wife Agnes Cunningham, not by Sarah Jowssie, apparently.

Agnes Cunningham, John's mother, had died in 1612 at Clonbeith, according to this account:

https://books.google.com/books?id=OvEHAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA253&dq=clonbeith+%22agnes+cuninghame%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwinxrWYoYXjAhVimeAKHStaDQ0Q6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=clonbeith%20%22agnes%20cuninghame%22&f=false

Further down in that discussion, Daniel Cunningham is mentioned as "of Clonbeith" and incorrectly implied as child or heir of William and Agnes, but the surviving documents really show it was a switch-of-lands, not a father-to-son inheritance.

Another document, possibly from 1642 [?], mentions the William "quondam de Clonbeith (... postea de Dankeith) ..." and his second wife Sarah (Daniel Cunningham, Mary Wallace, William Cunningham, and Jean Cunningham are also mentioned):

https://books.google.com/books?id=HnAhAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA443&dq=%22sare+jossy+ejus%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj-rIerpYXjAhWwiOAKHWXjDMMQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=%22sare%20jossy%20ejus%22&f=false

Does anyone with expertise in Scottish matters know how common a land-switch would be in this period? I take it that it at least happened occasionally.

Jan Wolfe

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Oct 4, 2019, 9:48:17 PM10/4/19
to
On Friday, October 4, 2019 at 1:10:49 PM UTC-4, ravinma...@yahoo.com wrote:
> I wanted to suggest a slightly different solution to the problem of the Cunningham family behind Rev. Thomas Craighead's wife Margaret Wallace (well, there were multiple Cunninghams behind her, but I'm interested in her mother, Barbara Cunningham's, agnate line). Jan Wolfe has her own tentative solution on her website:
>
> http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bobwolfe/gen/person/g11467.htm
>
...
I started a new thread to respond this post: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/OQNY_NLNZVA/-MiGKgYZCgAJ

Bronwen Edwards

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Oct 7, 2019, 3:05:21 AM10/7/19
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I found 3 lines:
1.
Sir Robert de Holand & Maud La Zouche
Sir Thomas de Holand & Joan Plantagenet
Thomas de Holand & Alice of Arundel
Margaret de Holand & John Beaufort
Joan Beaufort & (1) James I, King of Scots, (2) James Stewart of Lorne
James II, King of Scots & Marie van Egmond
James III, King of Scots & Margaret von Oldenburg
James IV, King of Scots & Margaret Tudor
James V, King of Scots & Euphemia Elphinstone (concubine)
Robert Stewart & Jean Kennedy
Mary Stewart & Patrick Gray
Agnes Gray & William Graham
John Graham & Mary Keith
Elizabeth Graham & Sir William Graham
Christian Graham & John Drummond
Walter Drummond & Catherine Mckie
Catherine Drummond & John MacInnes
Andrew MacInnes & Margaret Swan
Andrew MacInnes & Sarah Clark
Henrietta Rudyard Clark MacInnes & Joseph Barrett
Elizabeth Barrett & Maurice Emil Newman
Claire Newman & Sidney Valdes Webb
Elizabeth Webb & Charles Loloma
me

2.
Margaret de Holand & John Beaufort
John Beaufort & Margaret Beauchamp
Margaret Beaufort & Edmund Tudor
Henry VII, King of England & Elizabeth of York
Margaret Tudor & James IV, King of Scots
etc.

3.
Sir Robert de Holand & Maud La Zouche
Maud de Holand & Sir Thomas Swynnerton
Sir Robert Swynnerton & Elizabeth de Beke
Maud Swynnerton & Sir John Savage
Sir John Savage & Katherine Stanley
Ellen Savage & Piers de Warburton
Sir John Warburton & Jane Stanley
Ellen Warburton & John Carrington
Margaret Carrington & Peter Domville
William Domville & Mary Merle
Gilbert Domville & Margaret Jones
Sir William Domville & Bridget Lake
Bridget Domville & Sir Robert Hartpole
Domville Hartpole & Piers Butler
Edmond Butler & Anne Skellern
Bridget Butler & Theobald "Big Toby" Butler
William Butler of Drom & Caroline Massy
Caroline Butler & Hugh Massy Barrett
Joseph Barrett & Henrietta Rudyard Clark MacInnes
Elizabeth Barrett & Maurice Emil Newman
Claire Newman & Sidney Valdes Webb
Elizabeth Webb & Charles Loloma
me
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