Christian de Ireby and her alleged grandson, Sir Christopher de Seton
Douglas Richardson
Archaeologia Aeliana, 3rd ser. 1 (1904): 30–106, and, more recently,
Todd, Lanercost Cartulary (Surtees Soc. 203) (1997): 349, Foundations 2
(1) (2006): 54–73, and Double Tressure 29 (2006): 77–82 have alleged
that Christian de Ireby and her 1st husband, Thomas de Lascelles,
Knt., had a daughter and heiress, Ermina [or Erminia], wife of John de
Seton, Knt., of Seton (in Hinderwell) and Southburn (in Kirkburn),
Yorkshire, and Skelton, Cumberland. Ermina de Seton in turn is
identified in print as the mother of Christopher de Seton, Knt., of
Seton (in Hinderwell), Yorkshire, Kirkandrews and Skelton, Cumberland,
etc., who was drawn and hanged in 1306 by King Edward I of England for
having taking the side of King Robert I de Brus. Sir Christopher de
Seton was the husband of Christian de Brus, the sister of King Robert
I de Brus.
Christian de Ireby is better known in history circles as the second
wife of Robert de Brus, Knt. (died 1295), lord of Annandale in
Scotland, who is usually called Robert de Brus the Competitor or the
Claimant. Contemporary evidence indicates that at the time of her
death in 1305, Christian de Ireby died without surviving issue, her
heirs being listed in an inquisition taken 14 Sept. 1305 as being
Joan, wife of Roger de Edneham, aged 30, Joan, wife of Robert de
Hodelstone, aged 28, Christian, wife of John de Farlame, aged 26, and
Isabel, wife of Hugh de Bochardby, aged 25 [see Archaeologia Aeliana,
3rd ser. 1 (1904): 54, footnote 5 (available at this weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=Du8VAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA54&dq=Robert+Hodelston+Edneham);
Parker, Pipe Rolls of Cumberland & Westmorland 1222–1260 (Cumberland &
Westmorland Antiq. & Arch. Soc. Extra ser. 12) (1905): xxxvi–xxxvii;
available at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=i-cMAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Parker,+Pipe+Rolls+of+Cumberland#PPR36,M1].
Due to chronological considerations, none of these ladies can be
Christian de Ireby’s own daughters, as during the approximate time
period these four women were born, Christian de Ireby was married to
her 2nd and 3rd husbands, Adam de Jesmond, Knt., and Robert de Brus,
Knt., by neither of which husband she had issue. That Christian de
Ireby likewise had no issue by her first Lascelles marriage is
demonstrated by the complaint made in 1293 by Geoffrey de Mowbray that
Christian de Ireby, then wife of Robert de Brus, carried off marl from
one rood in excess of her dower out of his inheritance [see Fraser,
Northumberland Eyre Roll for 1293 (Surtees Soc.) (2007): 216]. The
dower lands in question were located at Bolton and Bassenthwaite,
Cumberland, and were derived from Christian de Ireby’s first marriage
to Thomas de Lascelles, Knt. If Christian de Ireby had had surviving
issue by her Lascelles marriage, she should have been holding her
dower lands of her own issue in 1293, not of Geoffrey de Mowbray. As
for Geoffrey de Mowbray, he can readily be identified as a near
kinsman of Thomas de Lascelles, Knt. Geoffrey de Mowbray’s
grandmother, Galiena, wife of Philip de Mowbray, was the sister of
Thomas de Lascelles’ mother, Christian, wife of Duncan de Lascelles,
these two ladies being the daughters and co-heirs of Waltheof son of
Gospatric (living 1186), of Bolton and Bassenthwaite, Cumberland [see
Burke, Hist. of the Commoners 1 (1836): 126–127 (re. Mowbray); Notes &
Queries, 10th ser. 2 (1904): 241–242; Arch. Aeliana 3rd ser. 1 (1904):
51; Scots Peerage 3 (1906): 244–245 (sub Dunbar, Earls of Dunbar)].
As for Ermina, wife of John de Seton, Knt., she is mentioned in a
grant of the king in 1306, and was still living as late as 1320–1321
[see Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1301–1307 (1898): 465; National
Archives, C 143/145/11 & SC 8/2/57]. As indicated above, she is not
listed as an heir in the inquisition post mortem of Christian de Ireby
taken in 1305. Moreover, she is not known to have ever possessed any
of the lands belonging to Christian de Ireby, nor did she have any
part of the Lascelles family estates in Cumberland. Rather, following
the death of Thomas de Lascelles, Knt. without issue in 1260, the
manor of Bolton, Cumberland (a known Lascelles estate) appears to have
passed by inheritance within the year to Thomas de Lascelles’ first
cousin, Roger de Mowbray, and, then sometime before 1293, it fell to
Roger de Mowbray’s nephew, Geoffrey de Mowbray, Knt., who was still in
possession of the manor in 1296 [see Stevenson, Docs. illustrative of
the Hist. of Scotland 1 (1870): 365–366; 2 (1870): 41; for evidence
that Bolton, Cumberland was earlier held by Thomas de Lascelles’
parents, Duncan and Christian de Lascelles, see Notes & Queries 10th
ser. 2 (1904): 241–242; Pipe Rolls 2 John Rot. 17d; Pipe Rolls 3 John
Rot. 17d.].
There is likewise no evidence which indicates that Ermina de Seton was
the mother of Sir Christopher de Seton. Rather, it appears Ermina was
the step-mother of Sir Christopher de Seton. There is an abstract of
a petition of Ermina de Seton in the online National Archives
catalogue, which is copied below. In the petition, Ermina de Seton
mentions Christopher de Seton by name but does not call him her son.
Rather, she refers to him only as the son and heir of her late
husband, John de Seton. The same is true of Calendar of Patent Rolls,
1301–1307 (1898): 465, where Christopher de Seton is identitied as the
son and heir of John de Seton, but Ermina is not called his mother
(see http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e1v4/body/Edward1vol4page0465.pdf).
In summary, we find that Christian de Ireby died childless in 1305.
She was not the mother of Ermina, wife of John de Seton. And, Ermina
de Seton was evidently not the mother of Sir Christopher de Seton.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + +
Sources: National Archives Catalogue (http://
www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=-4317976&CATLN=7&Highlight=%2CERMINA&accessmethod=0)
SC 8/2/57
Record Summary
Scope and content
Petitioners: Ermina [de Seton], widow of John de Seton.
Addressees: King and council.
Places mentioned: East Lutton, [East Riding of Yorkshire]; Butterwick,
[East Riding of Yorkshire].
Other people mentioned: John Bard of Butterwick; Christopher de Seton
son of John de Seton; Roger de Brabazon.
Nature of request: Seton states that when she brought a writ of Dower
against John Bard of Butterwick for tenements in East Lutton which
John de Seton her late husband was seised of on the day of their
marriage, which tenements he afterwards enfeoffed John Bard, when she
brought the writ against Bard demanding a third part of his tofts, 1
carucate, 1 bovate and 1 acre of land and 18s. of rent with their
appurtenances in East Lutton, he vouched to warranty Christopher de
Seton, son and heir of John de Seaton who afterwards made default
after default by which it was awarded that John Bard held the same in
peace, and Seton have to the value of her demands from the lands of
Christopher de Seton. But before this, shortly after the award had
been made, and before Seton could have her seisin, the lands came into
the hands of the king by Christopher de Seton's forfeiture, because of
which she has nothing for her dower. She requests remedy.
Endorsement: She should sue by a writ to bring the record before Lord
Roger de Brabazon at Easter in a month.
Covering dates [1307]
Alex Maxwell Findlater
Ermina, daughter and heiress of Thomas de Lascelles and Christiana
(daughter of Christiana daughter of Odard) of Ireby, married John of
Seton, who confirmed a grant by Christiana’s father William of Ireby
to
Lanercost Priory on 3 May 1273 (Lanercost Cart., no. 305). Christiana
married Robert de Brus (V), lord of Annandale, on that day.
wjhonson
-------------
But this sounds a bit like "John de Seton confirmed a grant by William
de Ireby" and all the rest of this is supposition. We really need to
see the actual language in the grant to see what's been "filled in".
Will
Alex Maxwell Findlater
John Briggs
> Does anyone have a copy of the Lanercost Cartulary at
> home?
Douglas Richardson must have, because he cited it in his original post...
It's available from the publishers for $80 + shipping:
http://www.boydell.co.uk/54440607.HTM
--
John Briggs
maxwellf...@hotmail.com
Todd's edition is!
Entry No 305 is a confirmation by John de Seton of the monks' rights
to pasture at Gamelsby and Glassonby. He is confirming this in right
of his wife, Erminia, who is unnamed. This was normal in England,
until the married Woman's Property Act only a century or so ago.
Although this does not identify her, these lands had descended in the
family of de Hoddom and were confirmed by William de Ireby, husband of
Christiana d&c of Odard de Hoddom, to Lanercost in 1230x32 (Lanercost
154). Erminia was certainly Sir John de Seton's widow and after Sir
Christopher's death her (English) terce was confirmed to her. In No
305 Seton describes Christiana de Ireby, who married that day Robert
Bruce the elder as "domine mee karissime domine Christiane uxoris sue
(sive Roberti de Brus). The charter is dated at Hoddom, as is the
similar charter of Robert de Brus, No 304, both on the same day.
As for the descent of Sir Christopher, I do not know that he is ever
described as the son of Erminia, but in 1299 he is noted in his
father's Ipm as being 21, so born in 1278. The date of the Lanercost
charter is 1273 and Sir John was then married to Erminia, so I am
happy to accept that she was the mother of Sir Christopher.
In the note by John Todd on No 154, he calls Odard de Hoddom "Odard of
Bolton", presumably a Cumbrian fief. Can anyone help me with this,
please? The de Hoddoms were patrons of Holmcultram, but that register
has disappeared from Google books, so I cannot check until next time I
go to Carlisle, which is miles and miles away.
maxwellf...@hotmail.com
Seton did homage for Gamalsby and Glassonby on the death of Christiana
de Ireby, widow of Robert de Brus, in 1305. Had he not been the son
of Ermina de Lascelles he would not have inherited them.
royala...@msn.com
In an earlier post, I gave conclusive evidence which proves that
Christian de Ireby, wife successively of Thomas de Lascelles, Adam de
Jesmond, and Robert de Brus, died without issue.
Yet in your post just now you create a daughter for her that never
existed and marry her to John de Seton, which marriage never took
place. Not so fast.
Specifically, Christian de Ireby's Inquisition Post Mortem indicates
that she died without issue. That's a fact. You can't get around
this.
Secondly, property that was held by Christian de Ireby's first
husband, Thomas de Lascelles, fell by inheritance to his cousin and
heir, Geoffrey de Mowbray. The Seton family never held any Lascelles
family property. That's a fact.
Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, as you know, Christopher de
Seton obtained Gamelsby, Cumberland, which was an Ireby property.
Christopher de Seton did not inherit this land by inheritance, as you
have alleged. Rather, sometime before 1295, Robert de Brus and his
wife, Christian de Ireby, settled the vill of Gamelsby-cum-Unthank (in
Addingham), Cumberland (which was Christian's property) on themselves
for life, and the reversion of the property was to go to John de Seton
and his heirs. This does not mean that John de Seton or his wife was
Christian de Ireby's blood heir. Such settlements were often used for
the purposes of a sale. Following the respective deaths of Robert de
Brus and Christian de Ireby, on 12 October 1305 the king duly ordered
that the escheator turn over to Christopher de Seton the vill of
Gamelsby-cum-Unthank (in Addingham), Cumberland, which his father,
John de Seton, had previously granted in tail to Robert de Brus and
Christian his wife, which Robert and Christian had died without
heirs. Thus, Christopher de Seton obtained the property in 1305 by
the terms of a settlement, not by inheritance. That's a fact.
Fourthly, had Ermina de Seton been Christian de Irebv's daughter, she
would have been included in the above named settlement but she was
not. Ergo, she was almost certainly not Christian de Ireby's
daughter. On Christian de Ireby's death, Gamelsby, Cumberland passed
by the terms of the earlier settlement to Christopher de Seton.
Ermina de Seton, Christopher's step-mother, got nothing because she
had no right to this property. That's a simple fact.
Fifthly, had Ermina de Seton been Christian de Ireby's Lascelles
daughter, she was would inherited her father's share of the manors of
Bolton and Bassenthwaite, Cumberland, Chilton, Berkshire, Burnham,
Buckinghamshire, etc., and also, on her mother's death, she should
have inherited the manors of Gamelsby and Glassanby [both in
Addingham] and Ireby, Cumberland. If you check the records, you will
find that NONE of this property went to Ermina de Seton, even though
she survived BOTH Thomas de Lascelles and Christian de Ireby. Again,
the facts demonstrate that Ermina was NOT the daughter of Christian de
Ireby.
Fifthly, John de Seton's charter which you quote refers to Christian
de Ireby as "his lady," that is, overlord. He does not call her his
mother or mother-in-law, which would normally have been the case had
he been married to her daughter. That's a fact.
Lastly, you can not assume John de Seton was married to his wife,
Ermina, before 1273, if the charter dated 1273 which you cite doesn't
name his wife. As I've already pointed out, there is good reason to
believe that Ermina was John de Seton's second wife and not the mother
of his son and heir, Christopher de Seton.
In summary, the evidence shows conclusively that Christian de Ireby
had no surviving issue. As such, she can not have been the mother of
Ermina de Seton, nor can she have been the grandmother of Christopher
de Seton. None of the Lascelles family estates or the Ireby family
estates fell by inheritance to Ermina de Seton. In fact, it is clear
that Ermina de Seton never had any of these properties. Christopher
de Seton obtained a share of Christian de Ireby's estates, but only by
way of a settlement made on his father in Christian de Ireby's
lifetime, not by inheritance. Lastly, the inquisition post mortem of
Christian de Ireby indicates that her heirs were four female distant
relatives, none of whom had any connection to the Seton family.
Neither Ermina de Seton or Christopher de Seton was listed as
Christian de Ireby's heir.
In Real Estate, it's location, location, location. In medieval
genealogy and history, it's evidence, evidence, evidence. And, in
this case, I believe the evidence is quite clear.
Micha...@frontiernet.net
There is a document that calls Ermina de Seton the mother of
Christopher Seton. It is the IPM of Robert de Clifford, CIPM, Vol. 5,
Edward II, pp. 300-301, No.533:
Calendar of Inquistions Post Mortem Vol. V Edward II, Mackie & Co.
Ltd, London, 1908, pp. 300-301:
533. Robert De Clyfford.
Writ, 28 July, 8 Edw. II.
Cumberland. Inq. Tuesday before the Decollation of St. John, 8 Edw.
II.
Skelton. A third part held of the king in chief by service of 27 d.
for cornage, which Sir John de Penreth holds for life by the said Sir
Robert's demise, besides the dower of Ermina de Seton, who was the
mother of Christopher de Seton, the reversion whereof pertains to the
said Sir Robert's heir.
Carleton by Penreht [alias Penreth]. 11s. rent and a mill, held of the
king in chief, service unspecified. He had no other lands &c. in the
county.
Roger his son, aged 14 on the feast of St. Agnes, second last past, is
his next heir.
Ermina de Seton would have tried to distance herself as much as
possible from her son after his death in 1306. He was executed as a
traitor to Edward I. Christopher Seton was hanged, drawn and beheaded
in Dumfries. By her son's marriage she was related to Robert I of
Scotland. The lands she held in Cumberland were her only remaining
assets. She would have been a pauper if she wouldn't have gone along
with the system in place. Robert Clifford held her lands and knew
exactly who she was.
As far as the IPM of Chrsitina de Brus it is available in digital form
in the original Latin from the PRO. Whoever those women named at the
end of the inquisition are they are not Christina's next heirs. She
had first cousins who would have inherited her property. The problem
here is that Christina de Brus owned nothing at her death. She held
everything in life use from either Adam Middleton [ from John
Boyville] or from John Seton. Her dower lands belonged to Robert
Bruce, Earl of Carrick [ Robert I of Scotland] her stepson. The four
named women were probably heirs of either Adam Middleton or John
Boyville as they owned the land in question.
Christopher Seton held a portion of the land from William Loccard and
the other portion from the Lanercost Charter cited previously.
MichaelAnne
royala...@msn.com
< Dear Doug,
<
< There is a document that calls Ermina de Seton the mother of
< Christopher Seton. It is the IPM of Robert de Clifford, CIPM, Vol.
5,
< Edward II, pp. 300-301, No.533:
<
< Calendar of Inquistions Post Mortem Vol. V Edward II, Mackie & Co.
< Ltd, London, 1908, pp. 300-301:
<
< 533. Robert De Clyfford.
<
< Writ, 28 July, 8 Edw. II.
< Cumberland. Inq. Tuesday before the Decollation of St. John, 8 Edw.
< II.
<
< Skelton. A third part held of the king in chief by service of 27 d.
< for cornage, which Sir John de Penreth holds for life by the said
Sir
< Robert's demise, besides the dower of Ermina de Seton, who was the
< mother of Christopher de Seton, the reversion whereof pertains to
the
><said Sir Robert's heir.
Thank you, MichaelAnne. Much appreciated. This is certainly good
evidence that Ermina, wife of John de Seton, was the mother of
Christopher de Seton. The fact that Ermina was Christopher de Seton's
mother, however, adds even more evidence that she was not Christian de
Ireby's daughter. If she had been Christian de Ireby's daughter, she
would normally have been included in the settlement of Gamelsby,
Cumberland, by which the reversion of Christian de Ireby's lands in
that place was set to go to John de Seton and his heirs. That she
was excluded from the settlement is clear from the fact that on the
death of Christian de Ireby, it as Ermina's son, Christopher de Seton,
who took possession of Gamelsby, not Ermina who was still living.
The four women named as Christian de Ireby's heirs in her inquisition
were certainly her heirs. If nothing else, they would have been
Christian's heirs to the property named in the inquisition. Moreover,
the records of the other land holdings of the Lascelles and Ireby
families prove that Christian de Ireby left no surviving issue.
Alex is incorrect when he says that John de Seton gave a charter on
behalf of his unnnamed wife in 1273. The Lanerrcost charter makes no
mention of a wife whatsoever! Also, John de Seton refers to Robert de
Brus as "his lord" and Christian de Ireby, wife of Robert de Brus, as
"his lady." This suggests that John de Seton was their tenant, not
Christian's son-in-law. If Christian de Ireby had been his mother-in-
law, he would surely have addressed her as "beloved mother."
When Alex has the time, I'll let him post an exact copy of the
Lanercost charter to show that NO wife is named, mentioned, or implied
in the 1273 charter of John de Seton.
royala...@msn.com
I was in a hurry when I made my last post. I inadvertedly made a
couple of typos.
For "it as Ermina's son, Christopher de Seton, ..." read "it was
Ermina's son, Christopher de Seton,..."
For "Lanerrcost ," read "Lanercost"
I want to make several points. So far no one has advanced any
evidence that Christian de Ireby had surviving issue. In fact, just
the opposite. She would not have been holding dower of her first
husband's cousin, Geoffrey de Mowbray's inheritance, unless her first
husband, Thomas de Lascelles, had died without issue. Also, no one
has advanced any evidence that the four women named as Christian's
heirs in her inquisition post mortem were not her heirs. The four
women were obviously not Christian de Ireby's daughters, so they must
have been more distantly related to her. In fact, the contemporary
inquisition is excellent evidence that Christian de Ireby died without
issue. Even more fatal, no one has advanced any evidence that any
Lascelles or Ireby property went to Ermina de Seton, Christian de
Ireby's alleged daughter. In fact, I have shown that Ermina de Seton
didn't receive any Lascelles or Ireby property at all. None. Even
more fatal, I note that Ermina de Seton was excluded from a settlement
of Ireby family property. Rather, the reversion of the property was
settled on Ermina's husband and his heirs, to the exclusion of
Ermina. This looks like a sale, not a family settlement. This would
be highly unusual if Ermina de Seton was Christian de Ireby's blood
daughter.
So, unless someone knows of some additional evidence which has been
overlooked, I think it is safe to conclude that Ermina de Seton was
not Christian de Ireby's daughter. Even so, I'd like to see the
evidence that Christian de Ireby is Ermina de Seton's mother if such
evidence exists. Take it away Alex and MichaelAnne. I've got my my
fingers crossed for you guys.
maxwellf...@hotmail.com
> Lanercost charter to show that NO wife is named, mentioned, or implied
> in the 1273 charter of John de Seton.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
QUOTE
Entry No 305 is a confirmation by John de Seton of the monks' rights
to pasture at Gamelsby and Glassonby. He is confirming this in right
of his wife, Erminia, who is unnamed. This was normal in England,
until the married Woman's Property Act only a century or so ago.
Although this does not identify her, these lands had descended in the
family of de Hoddom and were confirmed by William de Ireby, husband
of
Christiana d&c of Odard de Hoddom, to Lanercost in 1230x32 (Lanercost
154). Erminia was certainly Sir John de Seton's widow and after Sir
Christopher's death her (English) terce was confirmed to her. In No
305 Seton describes Christiana de Ireby, who married that day Robert
Bruce the elder as "domine mee karissime domine Christiane uxoris sue
(sive Roberti de Brus). The charter is dated at Hoddom, as is the
similar charter of Robert de Brus, No 304, both on the same day.
UNQUOTE
>The four women named as Christian de Ireby's heirs in her inquisition
>were certainly her heirs. If nothing else, they would have been
>Christian's heirs to the property named in the inquisition. Moreover,
>the records of the other land holdings of the Lascelles and Ireby
>families prove that Christian de Ireby left no surviving issue.
All previous researchers of this family have missed this Imp. That
includes me! Might we be allowed into the secret of what this Ipm
says, please?
Micha...@frontiernet.net
Calendar of Documents pertaining to Scotland preserved in her majestys
public Record office, London edited by Joseph Bain, Vol. II 1272-1307,
H.M. General Register House 1884, Edinburgh:
#1305. Sept. 14, 1305.
Inquisition [ under two writs, the first dated Canterbury, 6th July
previous, and the second at Writtle 27th August following issued on
information of Cristopher de Seton that land's of his father's had
been omitted in an inquisition at Pienrith on the 21st of August]
regarding the lands of Cristiana widow of Robert de Brus, made at
Carlisle, on Tuesday the Exhaltation of the Holy Rood, in the king's
33rd year, by William de Bampton [ and eleven other jurors]; who find
that she held a vaccary in Inglewood called Heslespringshale, of the
king in capite, paying 1 d. yearly to the sheriff of Cumberland for
the king; that said 'Scale' is worth a mark; that she held the vills
of Gamelesby and Unthank for life by grant of John de Seton, who gave
them to Robert de Brus and herself and the joint lawful heirs of their
bodies, whom failing, to revert to himself and his heirs; that they
died without such heirs, and John de Seton is also dead; and
Christopher de Seton his son is his next heir, and is 28 years of age
and more; the said lands are held of the king in capite by homage, and
service of 13s. 4d. of cornage to him, and are worth £26 5s. 7 1/2d.
She held also the manor of Market-Irevy of John de Boyville for life,
by homage, delivering a sparrowhawk yearly at the Assumption of the
Virgin, and this by grant of Adam de Midelton, by a fine levied in the
king's court, and Adam holds it now, and it is worth £20. Johanne wife
of Roger de Edneham aged 30, Johanna wife of Robert de Hodelestone
aged 28, Cristiana wife of John de Farlame aged 26, and Isabella wife
of Hugh de Bochardeby aged 25 are her heirs, They append their seals.
[Seals lost] [ Inq. p.m. 33 Edw. I, no. 33].
At the time of her death Christina de Brus owned no property. She held
everything in life rent or as a dower.
#717. Oct. 15, 1295.
The king confirms the grant by Christiana widow of Robert de Brus late
lord of Annandale, to Adam del Crokdayk and his heirs in perpetuity,
of the vill of Glassanby. Westminster. [Patent Rolls, 23 Edw. I, m.3]
#826. Aug. 29, 1296.
Agreement on Wednesday the Decollation of St. John [the] Baptist, 24th
year, at Berwick-on-Tweed between Christiana widow of Robert de Brus
lord of Annandale, plaintiff, and Robert de Brus his son and heir,
defendant, as to dower both in England and Scotland. Robert grants her
dower from the freehold of his father in the valleys of Annan and
Moffet as in John late king of Scotland's time; also in the manor of
Hert as she was dowered by the Bishop of Durham. He also grants her
the manors of Great Beddow in Essex, and Kemston in Bedford for her
life. For which she remits her dower in all the late Robert's lands in
England and Scotland, saving her action against John Fitz Marmaduke
for her dower in the manor of Staunton in Herterness. She also grants
to Robert her dower in the rents of the burghs of Annan and Lochmaben,
and profits of the loch of Goldmar, for a reasonable exchange in the
vills of Peynpatric and Gretenhow to be assigned to her. She reserves
all her dower from her first husband Adam de Jessemuth's land in Great
Dalton, but grants to Robert the presentation hoc vice to the church
of Dalton. They append their seals. [ Close Rolls, 24 Edw. I, m.7
dorso]
Glassenby continued in the Crookdale family. Her dower reverted to her
stepson Robert Bruce. Lower Ireby [ Market Ireby] was held by Adam de
Middelton. It was later granted by Thomas Middelton to the Tilliol
family. Unthank and Gamelsby became the possession of William Latimer
granted by the king after Christopher Seton's death.
MichaelAnne
maxwellf...@hotmail.com
Thank you very much for the extracts.
The Lanercost charter (305) is very simple:
Universis Christi fidelibus presentes litteras visuris vel audituris,
Johannes de Seton' salutem in Domino. Noverit universatis vestra, me
ad instanciam domini mei Roberti de Brus domini Vallis Anandie, et
etiam domine mee karissime domine Christiane uxoris sue, concessisse,
confirmasse et imperpetuum pro me et heredibus meis presentibus
litteras (sic) quietumclamasse, priori et conventui de Lanrecost',
donationem sibi et hominibus suis de Harscoch' per dominum Willelmum
de Ireby patrem domine mee predicte per cartam ipsius domini Willelmi
factam, de communa pasture in montibus ubique de Gamalesby et
Glassanesby animalibus suis universis habenda, secundum quod carta
domini Willelmi predicti sibi inde confecta plenius testatur et
proportat. In cuius rei testimonium presenti scripto sigillum meum
apposui.
Datum apud Hodolm' die inventionis sancte crucis, anno Domini Mo CCo
sepuagesimo tertio ( 3 May 1273)
royala...@msn.com
Thank you, Alex. Yes, the Lanercost charter is very simple. John de
Seton is not joined by a wife in this charter, nor is any spouse
mentioned or implied.
Further, John de Seton refers to Robert de Brus as "my lord" and
Christian de Ireby, wife of Robert de Brus, as "my lady."
This suggests that John de Seton was Christian de Ireby's tenant.
Had John de Seton been Christian de Ireby's son-in-law, he would have
addressed her as "my mother" not "my lady." I also note that John de
Seton refers to William de Ireby as the "father of my lady." Again,
this implies that John de Seton is Christian de Ireby's tenant.
The language is quite clear, Alex. No kinship between these parties
is suggested or implied. And, John de Seton mentions no wife.
Finding people together in records doesn't mean they were related to
one another.
royala...@msn.com
appreciated. It's very thoughtful of you and Tony to post these
documents.
But as you can see, Ermina de Seton is no where in any of these
records called the daughter of Christian de Ireby. That's a red flag.
Nor has anyone shown that any of the Lascelles or Ireby property
descended to Ermina de Seton on the death of Christian de Ireby.
That's an even bigger red flag.
And, Tony just posted the Lanercost charter which makes it clear that
John de Seton was merely the tenant, not the son-in-law, of Christian
de Ireby in 1273. This is a gigantic red flag.
I'm definitely rooting for both of you. When convenient, by all
means, please post the evidence which shows that Ermina de Seton is
Christian de Ireby's daughter. The floor is all your's. If you don't
have any evidence, just say so.