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Continued Welby ascent for the 11th Duke of Beaufort
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Wjhonson
Oct 30, 2011, 2:33:34 PM10/30/11
to gen-me...@rootsweb.com
The 11th and current duke of Beaufort, through his mother Bettina Malcolm ascends to Catherine Adeline Welby
who Leo shows rightly as a daughter of Adlard Welby
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00240036&tree=LEO
However Leo does not realize the Earth-shattering significance of who this Adlard is.
Adlard's father was
William /Welby/ of Middle Temple 1755; of Islington 1802
whose father was
William /Welby/ at Muskham, co Notts 1726-29; attorney; living 1755
whose father was
William /Welby/ second son; living 1755
whose father was
William /Welby/ of Rauceby d 1690 Newark m Judith /Welby/
This husband and wife were in fact first cousins
His was was Richard Welby, her father was William Welby and these two were brothers
Both sons of William /Welby/ of Denton, co Linc by his wife Judith /Newton/
Once the import of this has been digested I will demonstrate the shocking conclusion allowing us to attach a royal descent in this family.
Will Johnson
who Leo shows rightly as a daughter of Adlard Welby
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00240036&tree=LEO
However Leo does not realize the Earth-shattering significance of who this Adlard is.
Adlard's father was
William /Welby/ of Middle Temple 1755; of Islington 1802
whose father was
William /Welby/ at Muskham, co Notts 1726-29; attorney; living 1755
whose father was
William /Welby/ second son; living 1755
whose father was
William /Welby/ of Rauceby d 1690 Newark m Judith /Welby/
This husband and wife were in fact first cousins
His was was Richard Welby, her father was William Welby and these two were brothers
Both sons of William /Welby/ of Denton, co Linc by his wife Judith /Newton/
Once the import of this has been digested I will demonstrate the shocking conclusion allowing us to attach a royal descent in this family.
Will Johnson
wjhonson
Oct 30, 2011, 2:42:52 PM10/30/11
to
I have just informed you of how to ascend from the current Duke of
Beaufort to the Welby family of Denton, co Linc. Now for the other
shoe.
William /Welby/ of Denton, co Linc d 1657 had for wife
Eleanor /Williams/ fourth daughter d 1688
Her father was John /Williams/ of Denton, co Linc d 1627 and her
mother was Selina /Worsley/
Selina's parents were Richard /Worsley/ of Deeping Gate, co Northant
by his wife Mary /Harrington/
Leo shows us this *couple* but does not show Selina
Selina, through the Bozom family and then the Ufflete family has an
ascent to Edward I
She is a Cecil 6 as her maternal grandfather was John /Harrington/ of
Witham-on-the-Hill, co Lincoln living 1584 whose maternal grandmother
was that Alice Walbeef who by her second marriage was mother to that
same Jane Heckington who married secondly Richard Cecil and was mother
to William Cecil Baron Burghley
Beaufort to the Welby family of Denton, co Linc. Now for the other
shoe.
William /Welby/ of Denton, co Linc d 1657 had for wife
Eleanor /Williams/ fourth daughter d 1688
Her father was John /Williams/ of Denton, co Linc d 1627 and her
mother was Selina /Worsley/
Selina's parents were Richard /Worsley/ of Deeping Gate, co Northant
by his wife Mary /Harrington/
Leo shows us this *couple* but does not show Selina
Selina, through the Bozom family and then the Ufflete family has an
ascent to Edward I
She is a Cecil 6 as her maternal grandfather was John /Harrington/ of
Witham-on-the-Hill, co Lincoln living 1584 whose maternal grandmother
was that Alice Walbeef who by her second marriage was mother to that
same Jane Heckington who married secondly Richard Cecil and was mother
to William Cecil Baron Burghley
John
Oct 30, 2011, 6:25:33 PM10/30/11
to
On Oct 30, 11:42 am, wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> I have just informed you of how to ascend from the current Duke of
> Beaufort to the Welby family of Denton, co Linc. Now for the other
> shoe.
>
> William /Welby/ of Denton, co Linc d 1657 had for wife
> Eleanor /Williams/ fourth daughter d 1688
> Her father was John /Williams/ of Denton, co Linc d 1627 and her
> mother was Selina /Worsley/
See vol. 3 of Maddison's Lincolnshire Pedigrees, p. 1083
> I have just informed you of how to ascend from the current Duke of
> Beaufort to the Welby family of Denton, co Linc. Now for the other
> shoe.
>
> William /Welby/ of Denton, co Linc d 1657 had for wife
> Eleanor /Williams/ fourth daughter d 1688
> Her father was John /Williams/ of Denton, co Linc d 1627 and her
> mother was Selina /Worsley/
>
> Selina's parents were Richard /Worsley/ of Deeping Gate, co Northant
> by his wife Mary /Harrington/
>
> Leo shows us this *couple* but does not show Selina
including one where he listed the children of Richard Worsley and Mary
Harington. He didn't include Selina, although she seems well-
documented in Maddison.
There may be another connection between Worlsey and Welby. See
Maddison 3:1053 where the paternal grandmother of William Welby (d.
1657) is identified as "Alice, called daughter of R. Worsley". The
connection the Worsleys that Robert O'Connor wrote about is unclear.
>
> Selina, through the Bozom family and then the Ufflete family has an
> ascent to Edward I
to Joan, the illegitmate daughter of King John.
John
Oct 30, 2011, 6:12:52 PM10/30/11
to
On Oct 30, 11:33 am, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> The 11th and current duke of Beaufort, through his mother Bettina Malcolm ascends to Catherine Adeline Welby
> who Leo shows rightly as a daughter of Adlard Welby
>
> http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00240036&tree=LEO
>
> However Leo does not realize the Earth-shattering significance of who this Adlard is.
>
> Adlard's father was
> William /Welby/ of Middle Temple 1755; of Islington 1802
> whose father was
> William /Welby/ at Muskham, co Notts 1726-29; attorney; living 1755
> whose father was
> William /Welby/ second son; living 1755
> whose father was
> William /Welby/ of Rauceby d 1690 Newark m Judith /Welby/
For details see vol. 4 of Maddison's Lincolnshire Pedigrees, pp.
> The 11th and current duke of Beaufort, through his mother Bettina Malcolm ascends to Catherine Adeline Welby
> who Leo shows rightly as a daughter of Adlard Welby
>
> http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00240036&tree=LEO
>
> However Leo does not realize the Earth-shattering significance of who this Adlard is.
>
> Adlard's father was
> William /Welby/ of Middle Temple 1755; of Islington 1802
> whose father was
> William /Welby/ at Muskham, co Notts 1726-29; attorney; living 1755
> whose father was
> William /Welby/ second son; living 1755
> whose father was
> William /Welby/ of Rauceby d 1690 Newark m Judith /Welby/
1318-9
>
> This husband and wife were in fact first cousins
> His was was Richard Welby, her father was William Welby and these two were brothers
> Both sons of William /Welby/ of Denton, co Linc by his wife Judith /Newton/
>
John
Oct 30, 2011, 7:10:57 PM10/30/11
to
On Oct 30, 11:42 am, wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> I have just informed you of how to ascend from the current Duke of
> Beaufort to the Welby family of Denton, co Linc. Now for the other
> shoe.
>
> William /Welby/ of Denton, co Linc d 1657 had for wife
> Eleanor /Williams/ fourth daughter d 1688
> Her father was John /Williams/ of Denton, co Linc d 1627 and her
> mother was Selina /Worsley/
>
> Selina's parents were Richard /Worsley/ of Deeping Gate, co Northant
> by his wife Mary /Harrington/
>
> Leo shows us this *couple* but does not show Selina
>
> Selina, through the Bozom family and then the Ufflete family has an
> ascent to Edward I
>
What is your source for the connection of Bozom vis Usflete [or
> Beaufort to the Welby family of Denton, co Linc. Now for the other
> shoe.
>
> William /Welby/ of Denton, co Linc d 1657 had for wife
> Eleanor /Williams/ fourth daughter d 1688
> Her father was John /Williams/ of Denton, co Linc d 1627 and her
> mother was Selina /Worsley/
>
> Selina's parents were Richard /Worsley/ of Deeping Gate, co Northant
> by his wife Mary /Harrington/
>
> Leo shows us this *couple* but does not show Selina
>
> Selina, through the Bozom family and then the Ufflete family has an
> ascent to Edward I
>
Ufflete] to Edward I? Despite pedigrees that say otherwise, the
Usflete daughter who married into the Bozom family was apparently the
sister, rather than the daughter, of the Gerard Usflete who married
Elizabeth Fitzalan [or Arundel], who brings the Edward I connection.
See posts in the archives here on 5 Aug an 16 Sept 2002. The Usflete
pedigree in Yorkshire Pedigrees (HSP 96, pp. 403-4) is incorrect in
this matter.
Wjhonson
Oct 30, 2011, 7:58:17 PM10/30/11
to jhigg...@yahoo.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Maybe. I'd like to see some better sources on this to decide
Meanwhile see
http://www.archive.org/stream/lincolnshirepedi01madd#page/n366/mode/1up
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
the message
John
Oct 30, 2011, 8:28:24 PM10/30/11
to
On Oct 30, 4:58 pm, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> Maybe. I'd like to see some better sources on this to decide
>
> Meanwhile seehttp://www.archive.org/stream/lincolnshirepedi01madd#page/n366/mode/1up
> Maybe. I'd like to see some better sources on this to decide
>
> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
> the message
Yes, this source (which I cited previously) makes Anne, wife of Sir
> the message
Thomas Bozom, the great-grandchild of Lora Furnival, the mother of the
first Gerard Usflete and the great-grandmother of the Gerard Usflete
who married Elizabeth Fitzalan. In other words, the latter Gerard and
Anne were brother and sister, and Anne was his heir (along with her
three sisters or their repesentatives), which is what this source
(Maddison) says. This agrees with the well-documented posts of 2002
that I mentioned, as well as a separate post on the Usflete family by
Robert O'Connor in Feb 2004. What source can you cite that says
otherwise?
Wjhonson
Oct 30, 2011, 9:23:30 PM10/30/11
to jhigg...@yahoo.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
It doesn't quite do that John.
All it says here is that Anne was the daughter of Gerard, the sister and coheiress of Gerard and the great-granddaughter and heiress of Lora. It says nothing about Elizabeth Arundel Duchess of Norfolk although we *can* add other sources which mention her specifically.
Thomas her husband however is marked 1H7
There are assumptions being made as to which Gerard married whom and where they go in the tree exactly.
But those don't come from this source.
-----Original Message-----
From: John <jhigg...@yahoo.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
All it says here is that Anne was the daughter of Gerard, the sister and coheiress of Gerard and the great-granddaughter and heiress of Lora. It says nothing about Elizabeth Arundel Duchess of Norfolk although we *can* add other sources which mention her specifically.
Thomas her husband however is marked 1H7
There are assumptions being made as to which Gerard married whom and where they go in the tree exactly.
But those don't come from this source.
-----Original Message-----
From: John <jhigg...@yahoo.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sun, Oct 30, 2011 6:15 pm
Subject: Re: Continued Welby ascent for the 11th Duke of Beaufort
Subject: Re: Continued Welby ascent for the 11th Duke of Beaufort
Yes, this source (which I cited previously) makes Anne, wife of Sir
Thomas Bozom, the great-grandchild of Lora Furnival, the mother of the
first Gerard Usflete and the great-grandmother of the Gerard Usflete
who married Elizabeth Fitzalan. In other words, the latter Gerard and
Anne were brother and sister, and Anne was his heir (along with her
three sisters or their repesentatives), which is what this source
(Maddison) says. This agrees with the well-documented posts of 2002
that I mentioned, as well as a separate post on the Usflete family by
Robert O'Connor in Feb 2004. What source can you cite that says
otherwise?
-------------------------------
Thomas Bozom, the great-grandchild of Lora Furnival, the mother of the
first Gerard Usflete and the great-grandmother of the Gerard Usflete
who married Elizabeth Fitzalan. In other words, the latter Gerard and
Anne were brother and sister, and Anne was his heir (along with her
three sisters or their repesentatives), which is what this source
(Maddison) says. This agrees with the well-documented posts of 2002
that I mentioned, as well as a separate post on the Usflete family by
Robert O'Connor in Feb 2004. What source can you cite that says
otherwise?
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
John
Oct 30, 2011, 11:06:50 PM10/30/11
to
On Oct 30, 6:23 pm, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> It doesn't quite do that John.
> All it says here is that Anne was the daughter of Gerard, the sister and coheiress of Gerard and the great-granddaughter and heiress of Lora. It says nothing about Elizabeth Arundel Duchess of Norfolk although we *can* add other sources which mention her specifically.
>
> Thomas her husband however is marked 1H7
> There are assumptions being made as to which Gerard married whom and where they go in the tree exactly.
> But those don't come from this source.
> It doesn't quite do that John.
> All it says here is that Anne was the daughter of Gerard, the sister and coheiress of Gerard and the great-granddaughter and heiress of Lora. It says nothing about Elizabeth Arundel Duchess of Norfolk although we *can* add other sources which mention her specifically.
>
> Thomas her husband however is marked 1H7
> There are assumptions being made as to which Gerard married whom and where they go in the tree exactly.
> But those don't come from this source.
> Sent: Sun, Oct 30, 2011 6:15 pm
> Subject: Re: Continued Welby ascent for the 11th Duke of Beaufort
>
> Yes, this source (which I cited previously) makes Anne, wife of Sir
> Thomas Bozom, the great-grandchild of Lora Furnival, the mother of the
> first Gerard Usflete and the great-grandmother of the Gerard Usflete
> who married Elizabeth Fitzalan. In other words, the latter Gerard and
> Anne were brother and sister, and Anne was his heir (along with her
> three sisters or their repesentatives), which is what this source
> (Maddison) says. This agrees with the well-documented posts of 2002
> that I mentioned, as well as a separate post on the Usflete family by
> Robert O'Connor in Feb 2004. What source can you cite that says
> otherwise?
>
Okay, so Maddison 1:167 says that Anne "was the daughter of Gerard,
> Subject: Re: Continued Welby ascent for the 11th Duke of Beaufort
>
> Yes, this source (which I cited previously) makes Anne, wife of Sir
> Thomas Bozom, the great-grandchild of Lora Furnival, the mother of the
> first Gerard Usflete and the great-grandmother of the Gerard Usflete
> who married Elizabeth Fitzalan. In other words, the latter Gerard and
> Anne were brother and sister, and Anne was his heir (along with her
> three sisters or their repesentatives), which is what this source
> (Maddison) says. This agrees with the well-documented posts of 2002
> that I mentioned, as well as a separate post on the Usflete family by
> Robert O'Connor in Feb 2004. What source can you cite that says
> otherwise?
>
the sister and coheiress of Gerard and the great-granddaughter and
heiress of Lora" [Furnival] as you say. We also know from pedigrees
of the Usflete family previously cited that Gerard who married
Elizabeth Fitzalan was also a great-grandchild of Lora and that his
father was Gerard (the 2nd of three). This makes the younger Gerard
with the Fitzalan wife the brother of Anne (Usflete) Bozom - even if
Maddison doesn't mention the Fitzalan marriage.
What you call "assumptions" regarding the marriages of the Gerard
Usfletes are pretty clear in the pedigrees that have been cited. I
don't see what your objections are to this configuration of the family
- except that the Edward I descent goes away.
BTW the 2004 edition of Richardson's Plantagenet Ancestry also says
that Gerard Usflete and Elizabeth Fitzalan (or Arunddel as DR prefers)
had no issue. I'll ask again - what source can you cite which
contradict this?
Wjhonson
Oct 30, 2011, 11:26:28 PM10/30/11
to jhigg...@yahoo.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
I've seen no "pedigree of the usflete family" which states that that Gerard who married Elizabeth was a great-grandson of Lora
Where do you get that from?
-----Original Message-----
From: John <jhigg...@yahoo.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
John
Oct 31, 2011, 12:02:34 AM10/31/11
to
Feb 2004 9which cites its sources), and HSP 96:403-4 (Yorkshire
Pedigrees), which has the male-line sequence of the Usfletes and their
marriages right but errs in assigning the heiresses of the last Gerard
as his daughters rather than his sisters (a point wjhich was explained
in the posts of Aug and sept 2002 previously cited). The wills of the
last two Gerards are in Testamenta Eboracensia (vol. 1, I think), with
some discussion of the heirs, and at least one of the wills has been
discussed previously in this group. Further sources for the Usfletes
can be found in Marshall's Genealogist's Guide.
What pedigrees of the Usflete family HAVE you seen???
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