Gerard de Furnivall, died dsp?

[Kevan Barton via]

On occasion, I run into the Gerard de Furnivall who married Maud FitzJohn.
He is said to have died dsp before 18 Oct 1261 (Weis: Magna Charta Sureties,
Richardson: Magna Carta Ancestry). I also run into Alice de Furnival who
is said to have been born in 1262, daughter of a Gerard de Furnivall. Yet,
I don't see where folks have identified who her father Gerard to a known
one, but there are not many options from which to choose.



Are we certain that this Alice de Furnival (b. 1262) who married Thomas
Foljambe, was NOT the daughter of Gerard de Furnival and Maud FitzJohn?
I seem to recall this would NOT be the first time a child was born after the
death of the father. Conception is obviously very conceivable timewise.



Has anyone looked at the original sources other than relying on compiled
ones?



Any thoughts?



Cheers,

Kevan

[joe...@gmail.com]

As I recall, Alice is stated in Visitations to be daughter *and heir* to Gerard de Furnival. The problem with her being an heir to the most obvious (and probably only candidate) Gerard who d.s.p is that Gerard's brother inherited his properties, so Alice certainly was not heir to him, even if she was a posthumous daughter.

It's possible that the Visitations are just incorrect as to the paternity of Alice, wife of Fuljambe.

Joe C

[johnmw...@gmail.com]

If Alice was born in 1262, then she was 36 years old when her eldest son Thomas was born about 1298 (said to be aged 24 at the ipm of his father in 1322). This seems unlikely to me, particularly since she went on to have at least two other sons.

Regards,
John

[Kevan Barton via]

Joe, John,

Thank you kindly for the input. If we play with the idea that she was
indeed daughter and heir to a Gerard, but that she was born more likely
around 1275-1280 (per John Watson's input), then indeed we need to look for
another Gerard.

Okay, as an heir, she would have brought property into the Foljambe
marriage. Has anyone looked to see what, if any, property she brought with
her at her marriage or later as an heir? The "heir" bit of her history
should be able to be proven.

Also, are there cases where the paternity of a child born after the death of
the father is questioned?

Cheers,
Kevan

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[taf]

On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 12:57:14 PM UTC-8, Kevan Barton via wrote:

> Thank you kindly for the input. If we play with the idea that she was
> indeed daughter and heir to a Gerard, but that she was born more likely
> around 1275-1280 (per John Watson's input), then indeed we need to look for
> another Gerard.
>
> Okay, as an heir, she would have brought property into the Foljambe
> marriage. Has anyone looked to see what, if any, property she brought with
> her at her marriage or later as an heir? The "heir" bit of her history
> should be able to be proven.

There appears to have been a Gerald de Furnival about this time who had heiresses. This is all from dubious sources, but it may represent an area for further investigation.

The book Hallamshire: The History and Topography of the Parish of Sheffield shows a chart of the Furnival family.

https://books.google.com/books?id=ML8-AAAAcAAJ&pg=PA31

It shows that Gerard, husband of Maud Fitz John, had an uncle, Gerard of Munden Furnival. Another book, The House of Cornewall, shows this Gerard to have had by Christian Ledet a son Gerard, who would be first-cousin of Maud Fitz John's Gerard. He is shown marrying Joan de Morville, co-heiress of Hugh de Morville (sic) and having co-heiress Christian de Furnival, wife of John Eylesford.

https://books.google.com/books?id=TY1DAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA78

The Morville marriage has been questioned here, for example:

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2005-11/1132428092

Another heiress would seem to be the Lora said to have married John Ufflete and then Geoffrey le Scrope.

https://books.google.com/books?id=uioJAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA104

This looks like a more likely Gerard than the husband of Maud Fitz John, although I can find nothing but internet pedigrees that explicitly show Alice, wife of Thomas Foljambe as daughter of this Gerard.

taf

[taf]

On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 1:51:41 PM UTC-8, taf wrote:

> There appears to have been a Gerald de Furnival about this time who had
> heiresses.

[snip]

> He is shown marrying Joan de Morville, co-heiress of Hugh de Morville (sic)
> and having co-heiress Christian de Furnival, wife of John Eylesford.

[snip]

> Another heiress would seem to be the Lora said to have married John
> Ufflete and then Geoffrey le Scrope.

I will add that a plea roll pedigree shows this Gerard to have had just the two daughters, Loretta m. Ufflete and Christiana m. Aylesford.

https://archive.org/stream/pedigreesfromple00wrotrich#page/84/mode/2up

taf

[JBrand]

https://books.google.com/books?id=ceFgAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA239&dq=furnivall+foljambe&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjVhsv_n9XKAhUCRSYKHVT6Ba0Q6AEIIjAB#v=onepage&q=furnivall%20foljambe&f=false

This connection is also shown in the new four-volume set on the ancestry of Ernest Flagg Henderson IV and his wife, with sources cited on the charts. It apparently goes through a number of Thomase Furnivals and a Gerard whose wives are unknown, at least according to Henderson:

Thomas de Furnival = Bertha ____ (probably a Bertha de Ferrers, daughter of the Earl of Derby, who was later wife of Ralph Bigod)

Thomas de Furnival of Worksop, Notts. = _________

Gerard de Furnival, brother of Thomas 1st Lord Furnival = __________

Alice de Furnival = Thomas Foljambe of Tideswell, Derbyshire

[johnmw...@gmail.com]

Is there any contemporary evidence that Thomas, first lord Furnival had a brother called Gerard, or was he just invented to fit a flawed pedigree?

Regards,
John

[johnmw...@gmail.com]

http://johnmwatson.blogspot.co.uk/2015/04/the-early-pedigree-of-foljambe-part-1.html
http://johnmwatson.blogspot.co.uk/2015/04/the-early-pedigree-of-foljambe-part-2.html