Bishop's Kinsfolk: Bishop Godfrey Giffard's kinsman, William de Beauchamp, Earl of Warwick
Douglas Richardson
A helpful gem found in the published register of Godfrey Giffard,
Bishop of Worcester, is a record dated 1285 in which Bishop Giffard
refers to William de Beauchamp, Earl of Warwick (died 1298) as his
"kinsman and friend" [Reference: Register of Bishop Godfrey Giffard 3
(Episcopal Regs., Dioc. of Worc.) (1900): 266]. At first glance,
there seems to be nothing to connect the two men's lineages. However,
buried deep in their respective ancestries, it appears both men share
a common descent from a certain Urse d'Abitot, of Salwarpe, co.
Worcester.
Urse d'Abitot and his wife, Adelais, are believed to have had two
daughters, Emmeline (wife of Walter de Beauchamp) and ____, wife of
Roger Marmion. Emmeline's parentage is proved by recent charter
evidence published in the book, Beauchamp Cartulary Charters,
1100-1268, edited by Emma Mason (Pub. of the Pipe Roll Soc., n.s.,
vol. 43). Roger Marmion's wife's identity is based on the fact that
Roger Marmion and Walter de Beauchamp were joint successors to the
lands of Urse d'Abitot's brother, Robert le Despenser, a major
Domesday tenant.
The kinship between Bishop Giffard and Earl William de Beauchamp is
distant, but still at least 5th degree on at least one side. As I
calculate the kinship, Godfrey Giffard and William de Beauchamp were
related in the 5th and 6th degrees of kinships (that is, 4th cousins,
once removed). The chart below sets out the relationships.
Urse d'Abitot, of Salwarpe, co. Worcester
________________/_________________
/ /
_____ d'Abitot Emmeline d'Abitot
=Roger Marmion, of Scrivelsby, =Walter de Beauchamp,
co. Lincoln of Elmley, co. Worcester
/ /
Geoffrey Marmion, William de Beauchamp
of Llanstephan, co. Carmarthen /
/ /
Aubrey Marmion William de Beauchamp
1= Walter de Cormeilles = Bertha de Brewes
/ /
Sibyl de Cormeilles Walter de Beauchamp
=Hugh Giffard = Joan de Mortimer
/ /
Godfrey Giffard, Bishop of William de Beauchamp
Worcester = Isabel Mauduit
/
William de Beauchamp, Earl of
Warwick (died 1298)
Inasmuch as fully half of the newsgroup members possess a descent from
one or both of Urse d'Abitot's daughters, this post should be of
interest to many people here on the newsgroup. Hopefully this post
will spark discussion regarding Urse d'Abitot and his brother, Robert
le Despenser, and their connection to the Beauchamp and Marmion
families.
In addition to the record cited above which links Bishop Giffard to
the Beauchamp family, I've also located another record in which Bishop
Giffard is styled "kinsman" to Thomas de Solers [Reference: Calendar
of Patent Rolls, 1266–1272 (1913): 96 (Master Godfrey Giffard, king's
clerk, styled "kinsman of Thomas de Solariis, the said Godfrey granted
the "lands and goods of the said Thomas, who is not compos mentis …
until the said Thomas recover from his infirmity.")]. I've made no
attempt to determine the kinship between Bishop Giffard and Thomas de
Solers. However, I presume it is much closer than Bishop Giffard's
more distant kinship to the Earl of Warwick.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
Terry Mair
Can some one tell me if Robert Le Despenser had any children and how did he
come by the name Despenser, is he related to the other Despencer family?
Thanks
Terry
> of Patent Rolls, 1266-1272 (1913): 96 (Master Godfrey Giffard, king's
> clerk, styled "kinsman of Thomas de Solariis, the said Godfrey granted
> the "lands and goods of the said Thomas, who is not compos mentis .
Terry Mair
Talvas Montgomery Despencer as being the son of Robert Le Despencer, listed
below, my records show him as being the son of Robert Montgomery, which if
either of these is correct?
Thanks again
Terry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 9:37 AM
> of Patent Rolls, 1266-1272 (1913): 96 (Master Godfrey Giffard, king's
> clerk, styled "kinsman of Thomas de Solariis, the said Godfrey granted
> the "lands and goods of the said Thomas, who is not compos mentis .
Todd A. Farmerie
> Ok as I have been looking I find that many sources on the net show William
> Talvas Montgomery Despencer as being the son of Robert Le Despencer, listed
> below, my records show him as being the son of Robert Montgomery, which if
> either of these is correct?
This William Talvas Montgomery Despencer is completely bogus. He
would appear to be a chimera, with Willim Talvas, son of Robert
de Montgomery, being used to join together several unrelated
people with the name of Despencer.
Unfortunately, this is the great failing of the internet. One
person either makes a gross error or a gross forgery (in this
case in the LDS Ancestral File), and before you know it the
connection in question becomes so broadly disseminated that it
appears to have validity, based solely on the number of sites
that repeat it. Not only is this misleading at its face, but it
produces a whole lot of smoke, burying those sites with authentic
information among thousands of pages garbage. Simply put, any
web site that has a person named William Talvas Montgomery
Despencer on it is untrustworthy in its entirety.
By the way, Despenser was a household position, and hence the
people who bore that surname need have no relationship to each
other, nor to have been dispensator in the same household. For
example, the later Despenser Earls descend from a family who
appear to have filled that role for the Earls of Chester, while
Thurstan le Despenser (made son of William Talvas in these
sources) was dispensator regis - of the king, and hence any
attempt to derive them from the same family, as all of these web
sites do, is misplaced. (The latter does not connect to Robert
d'Abetot either, according to Keats-Rohan being son of Simon
Despenser, son of Hugh Despenser, son of Thurstan, dispensator of
William II, apparently son of Robert filius Turstin, dispensator
regis in Domesday Book, and a distinct contemporary of Robert
d'Abetot, le Dispensator.) A survey of contemporary records
reveals men called Despenser who held that position under the
Earls of Chester and Hereford, of the Warennes, Percys, and
Bullys, as well as of the king, and each of these (as well as
others) would represent distinct families. Robert d'Abetots
property all passed to his brother Urse, and hence it is safe to
conclude that none of the later Despenser families descended from
him.
taf
Terry Mair
----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: Bishop's Kinsfolk: Bishop Godfrey Giffard's kinsman, William de
Beauchamp, Earl of Warwick
> Terry Mair wrote:
> > Ok as I have been looking I find that many sources on the net show
William
> > Talvas Montgomery Despencer as being the son of Robert Le Despencer,
listed
> > below, my records show him as being the son of Robert Montgomery, which
if
> > either of these is correct?
>
> This William Talvas Montgomery Despencer is completely bogus. He
> would appear to be a chimera, with Willim Talvas, son of Robert
> de Montgomery, being used to join together several unrelated
> people with the name of Despencer.
Ok I can accept that, so now if some one could help me out, could some one
please tell me where does the line of Hugh the younger and Elder end?
>
>
> By the way, Despenser was a household position, and hence the
> people who bore that surname need have no relationship to each
> other, nor to have been dispensator in the same household. For
> example, the later Despenser Earls descend from a family who
> appear to have filled that role for the Earls of Chester, while
> Thurstan le Despenser (made son of William Talvas in these
> sources) was dispensator regis - of the king, and hence any
> attempt to derive them from the same family, as all of these web
> sites do, is misplaced. (The latter does not connect to Robert
> d'Abetot either, according to Keats-Rohan being son of Simon
> Despenser, son of Hugh Despenser, son of Thurstan, dispensator of
> William II, apparently son of Robert filius Turstin, dispensator
> regis in Domesday Book, and a distinct contemporary of Robert
> d'Abetot, le Dispensator.) A survey of contemporary records
> reveals men called Despenser who held that position under the
> Earls of Chester and Hereford, of the Warennes, Percys, and
> Bullys, as well as of the king, and each of these (as well as
> others) would represent distinct families. Robert d'Abetots
> property all passed to his brother Urse, and hence it is safe to
> conclude that none of the later Despenser families descended from
> him.
Yes I was aware of what the name indicated, my person oppinion is that the
same surname from various origins is not all that common, but that aside
does any one know who the Despencer for the Earl of Chester was, and which
Earl held Chester as the time?
Thanks again
Terry
>
> taf
>
>
>
Todd A. Farmerie
> but that aside
> does any one know who the Despencer for the Earl of Chester was, and which
> Earl held Chester as the time?
Keats-Rohan, in Domesday Descendants, includes a Geoffrey,
dispensator to Ranulph II, Earl of Chester.
taf
Robert O'Connor
"Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:5cf47a19.03102...@posting.google.com...
snip
> Urse d'Abitot, of Salwarpe, co. Worcester
> ________________/_________________
> / /
> _____ d'Abitot Emmeline d'Abitot
> =Roger Marmion, of Scrivelsby, =Walter de Beauchamp,
> co. Lincoln of Elmley, co. Worcester
> / /
> Geoffrey Marmion, William de Beauchamp
> of Llanstephan, co. Carmarthen /
> / /
Was this Geoffrey Marmion the brother of Robert Marmion of Tamworth (d 1143
or 1144)?
Many thanks
Robert O'Connor
Terry Mair
does any one know what his Surname was?
Thanks
Terry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 11:21 PM
Subject: Re: Bishop's Kinsfolk: Bishop Godfrey Giffard's kinsman, William de
Beauchamp, Earl of Warwick
Todd A. Farmerie
> Is there any thing to suggest that this Geoffrey took the name Despencer, or
> does any one know what his Surname was?
He appears in several documents, and Keats-Rohan gives only
Dispensator as a byname, so it would seem he used no other
surname. In this generation, this probably served simply as a
descriptor, rather than something so formal as 'taking the name'.
That being said, I have just looked back in the archives, and at
the end of last year, beginning of this, there were threads in
the group entitled "Origin of the Despensers" and "The Family of
Ivo de Alspath", where evidence was presented that this Geoffrey
Despenser (dispensarius) was brother of Ivo Fitz Anschetil (Ivone
filio Aschetilli), alias Ivo the Constable (constabulario de
Coventre) and Ivo de Alspath (Warwick). Geoffrey disappears in
the late 1150s, and in about 1166, a grant by Ivo was witnessed
by Thomas dispensatore and his brother Elias, both of whom are
called Despenser in later documents, so from this generation it
certainly appears to have been a surname. Thomas was the father
of the first Hugh, and it seems extremely likely that he was son
of Geoffrey. It was further speculated, based on the names Ivo
and Anschetil, that the family may have derived from the
Harcourts, but I find this less certain.
taf
Terry Mair
Being new to the list can you tell me how I can access the archives?
Thanks
Terry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 10:14 PM
Subject: Re: Bishop's Kinsfolk: Bishop Godfrey Giffard's kinsman, William de
Beauchamp, Earl of Warwick
Mardi Carter
Very interesting. Thank you. I have this Aubrey de Marmion married
to William de Camville. Actually I have them as two different
Aubrey's, but your ancestry for the one who m. Cormeilles is the same
as I have for the one who m. Camville. Did she have two husbands or
am I in error on the Camville connection?
Thanks.
Mardi
royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote in message news:<5cf47a19.03102...@posting.google.com>...
> of Patent Rolls, 1266?1272 (1913): 96 (Master Godfrey Giffard, king's
> clerk, styled "kinsman of Thomas de Solariis, the said Godfrey granted
> the "lands and goods of the said Thomas, who is not compos mentis ?
Todd A. Farmerie
> Ok Thanks for the information, that completly answers my question.
> Being new to the list can you tell me how I can access the archives?
Because of the nature of the group, as both a mailing list and a
USENET group, there are multiple archives. Beacause of the
inefficiency of the link between the two, and in the archiving
and preservation of the archive, neither is complete, so both
versions (Google and Rootsweb) should be consulted. For an
explanation and links, see:
http://www.rootsweb.com/~medieval/arch.htm
taf
Graeme Wall
te...@mairsphotography.com ("Terry Mair") wrote:
[snip]
>
> Yes I was aware of what the name indicated, my person oppinion is that the
> same surname from various origins is not all that common,
So you think all Smiths are related?
--
Graeme Wall
My genealogy website:
<http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/genealogy/index.html>
Terry Mair
Terry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2003 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: Bishop's Kinsfolk: Bishop Godfrey Giffard's kinsman, William de
Beauchamp, Earl of Warwick
Terry Mair
oppinion is that the same surname from various origins in not (heres the
important part) all that common," I never said it couldnt happen.
But then again just because you havn't found the origen of each Smith
family, in say England, does not mean their not all related now does it,
your just assuming there not because of what you have been told about the
origin of surnames, right.
Terry
----- Original Message -----
From: "Graeme Wall" <Gra...@greywall.demon.co.uk>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 12:35 PM
Subject: Re: Bishop's Kinsfolk: Bishop Godfrey Giffard's kinsman, William de
Beauchamp, Earl of Warwick
Tim Powys-Lybbe
> Doug,
>
> Very interesting. Thank you. I have this Aubrey de Marmion married
> to William de Camville. Actually I have them as two different
> Aubrey's, but your ancestry for the one who m. Cormeilles is the same
> as I have for the one who m. Camville. Did she have two husbands or
> am I in error on the Camville connection?
The usual question is where does the information come from?
CP, III, 3, incl note (d) shows this for Auberée Marmion and William de
Canville:
Geoffrey Marmion of Clifton and of Arrow, Warks
|
Auberée Marmion (living 1233) = William de Canville
|
Geoffrey de Canville (d. by 1219) (2) = Leuca (d. 1236)
|
William de Canville (d. 1260) = Lucy (living 1284)
|
Geoffrey de Canville, 1st baron Canville in 1295
But I can find no information about any marriage between Auberée and
Walter de Cormeilles (neither in Sanders' Baronies nor Keats-Rohan's
Doomsday Descendants, both of which mention Walter de Cormeilles (d.
1203-4).
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
Chris Phillips
Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote:
> CP, III, 3, incl note (d) shows this for Auberée Marmion and William de
> Canville:
>
> Geoffrey Marmion of Clifton and of Arrow, Warks
> |
> Auberée Marmion (living 1233) = William de Canville
> |
> Geoffrey de Canville (d. by 1219) (2) = Leuca (d. 1236)
> |
> William de Canville (d. 1260) = Lucy (living 1284)
> |
> Geoffrey de Canville, 1st baron Canville in 1295
There is a bit more in the Marmion article (vol. 8, p. 508 and note h),
where she is said to have quitclaimed her right in the land of Llanstephan
to William de Canville in 1228.
CP connects this with a grant by Robert, the grandson of Roger Marmion, of
(among other lands) the honour of Llanstephan to his uncle Geoffrey. It
questions on chronological grounds whether the two Geoffreys are identical,
but concludes that Aubreye was doubtless a descendant of Geoffrey the uncle
of Robert.
I see in the archives that this was discussed briefly in April 1999, when
Richard Borthwick posted details from R. A. Griffiths,"The Cartulary and
Muniments of the Fort Family of Llanstephan" - ch.14 in his *Conquerors and
Conquered in Medieval Wales* (Stroud & New York, 1994) - pp.193-253, which
also identifies Aubreye's father with Geoffrey the son of Roger (but equally
shows no marriage to Cormeilles).
Chris Phillips
Douglas Richardson
The marriage of Aubrey Marmion to Walter de Cormeilles comes from
Gerald Paget's Baronage. I haven't double checked Paget's original
account [148:1-2], but my notes indicate that he gives the following
source for this marriage:
C. Hen. 3 file 1 No 5.
I believe the "C." stands for Close Rolls.
Hastily, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
"Chris Phillips" <c...@medievalgenealogy.org.uk> wrote in message news:<bnofu9$p6k$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>...
Chris Phillips
> The marriage of Aubrey Marmion to Walter de Cormeilles comes from
> Gerald Paget's Baronage. I haven't double checked Paget's original
> account [148:1-2], but my notes indicate that he gives the following
> source for this marriage:
>
> C. Hen. 3 file 1 No 5.
>
> I believe the "C." stands for Close Rolls.
Thanks for the reference.
I wonder whether this could be one of the early Chancery inquisitions post
mortem? According to the online catalogue, C 132/1 covers 20-28 Henry III
[1235-1244], which is only just after the dates given by CP for Aubreye the
wife of William de Camville/Canville.
If so, it should be covered in the first volume of published abstracts.
Chris Phillips
Rosie Bevan
Yes, you are correct - the Gloucester inquisition of Margery de Cormeilles,
held in 1236, mentions Albreda de Marmion previously holding dower,
presumably of Cormeilles' land.
"Writ to the sheriff of Gloucester, 17 May, 20 Hen III. Inq. undated.
GLOUCESTER. The jury know of no land held by any Margaret de Cormailles of
the king in chief, but one Albreda de Marmion sometime held certain lands of
the king in chief in dower, which lands Henry de Penebrigg' now holds of
Hugh Giffard, and he of the king in chief."
[CIPM I no.5]
Cheers
Rosie
"Chris Phillips" <c...@medievalgenealogy.org.uk> wrote in message
news:bnp9qj$a9$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
Douglas Richardson
Yes, you are correct. The "C." stands for Chancery, as in
Inquisition Post Mortem. Below please find a copy of the inquisition
for Margaret (or Margery) de Cormeilles, one of the daughters and
co-heiresses of Walter de Cormeilles. The inquisition is split into
two parts, one an inquest held in Herefordshire, the other held in
Gloucestershire. The writs for both inquests are dated May 1236.
- - - - - - - - - -
Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem 1 (1904): 1-2
Inquisition Post Mortem of Margaret alias Margery de Cormeilles
Writ to the sheriff of Hereford, 16 May, 20 Henry III [1236]. Inq.
(undated).
Her daughters, Alice, the wife of Robert le Archer, and Isabel,
the wife of Simon de Solers, are her heirs by Walter de Stokes, her
husband.
HEREFORD. Tatinton and Bolingehop' in Clehungre, ½ knight's fee,
containing 3 carucates (and) 100 s. rent, held of the king in chief.
Eston town, 1 knight's fee held by Roger de Eston.
GLOUCESTER,
Begesoure and Hennemerse, 1 knight's fee held by James de Solers.
Writ to the sheriff of Gloucester, 17 May, 20 Henry III [1236]. Inq.
(undated).
GLOUCESTER. The jury know of no land held by any Margaret de
Cormailles of the king in chief, but one Albreda de Marmiun sometime
held certain lands of the king in chief in dower, which lands Henry de
Penebrigg' now holds of Hugh Giffard, and he of the king in chief.
C. Hen. III. File 1. (5.) END OF QUOTE.
- - - - - - - - -
The inquisition above indicates that a certain Aubrey Marmion formerly
held Cormeilles property in dower, which property was being held in
1236 by Hugh Giffard, the known husband of Sibyl, one of the four
Cormeilles co-heiresses. This suggests that Aubrey Marmion was the
widow sometime before 1236 of a Cormeilles male, presumably Walter de
Cormeilles himself. Also, it indicates that Aubrey Marmion survived
her Cormeilles marriage, and was presumably dead before 1236.
Inasmuch as the inquisition above indicated that the Cormeilles family
held lands in Gloucestershire, I checked the Book of Fees for anything
pertaining to Walter de Cormeilles. I found the following item in the
source:
Book of Fees commonly called Testa de Nevill. Part I (1920),pg. 50:
A.D. 1211-1213. Gloucester.
"Feoda Walteri de Cormailles in Wunnestan [Winson] et Elkestr
[Elkstone] et Sid' [Syde] cum pertinenciis v. milites." END OF QUOTE.
- - - - - - -
Finally, I located an article in the Bristol & Gloucestershire Society
journal which pertains to the Cormeilles family. The author states
unequivocably that Walter de Cormeilles married Aubrey Marmion, but he
does not give his source. Interestingly, the article reveals Bishop
Godfrey Giffard's known kinsman, Thomas de Solers, was a descendant of
the Cormailles family as was the Bishop.
Transactions of the Bristol and Gloucestershire Archaeological
Society, 40 (1917): 115-116:
"… Richard Cormeilles, his son, was father of a second Richard, and
grandfather of Walter Cormeilles, who married Albreda de Marmion, and
left by her four daughters, his co-heiresses, viz. Albreda, married to
John le Brun; Sibyl, the wife of High Giffard; Alice, married to
Godfrey de Craycumbe; and Margaret, the wife of Walter de Stokes. At
the death of Walter de Cormeilles his estates were divided between his
four daughters. The Manors of Hope and Aston in the County of
Hereford, together with the Manor of Pauntley, and certain other land
in Gloucestershire, came to Margaret, the wife of Walter de Stokes.
She dying without male issue, her property was divided between her two
daughters, co-heiresses. The elder, Alice, carried the Manor of Aston
in marriage to Robert le Archer. The younger, Isabel, wife of Simon
de Solers, inherited the Manors of Hope and Pauntley. The manors
remained in the Solers family until 1310, when by Inquisition P.M. it
was found that John, son of Thomas Solers, held at his decease,
besides the Manor of Solers Hope, the Manor of Pauntley in
Gloucestershire, and that his "kinsman" William de Wytington was his
heir (see pedigree post). By the marriage of this William de
Wytington of Co. Warwick with Maud, only daughter and heiress of John
Solers, the Manors of Solers Hope and Pauntley became vested in the
Whittington family from 1310 to 1546." END OF QUOTE.
I don't know who made the connection between Aubrey Marmion, wife of
Walter de Cormeilles, and Aubrey Marmion, wife of William de Camville.
I believe that Paget is correct that the two women are the same
person, especially given Bishop Giffard's claim to kinship to Earl
William de Beauchamp. Reviewing my notes, I see that Paget gives two
sources for the marriage of Aubrey Marmion and William de Camville:
Plac. temp. Ric. 1 & Joh. rot. 4;
Cart. l Joh. m 5
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
"Chris Phillips" <c...@medievalgenealogy.org.uk> wrote in message news:<bnp9qj$a9$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>...
Rosie Bevan
superficial and circumstantial. It suggests is that Albreda Marmion holding
dower in land which belonged to the Cormeilles family, but there is no
indication that she was the mother of any of Walter's children.
There is also a chrononological difficulty in having the same Albreda
Marmion as wife of Walter de Cormeilles AND William de Canville AND mother
of all the children thus ascribed to her. If Walter de Cormeilles was alive
in 1203 but dead by 1204-6 as discussed in Sanders p.86, that leaves
precious little time for the same Albreda Marmion to remarry and have a son,
Geoffrey, who dies in 1219 having been married twice and had two sons, one
of whom was of age in 1233.
Albreda Marmion was still living in October 1233 when she was called to
warrant over a dispute between her grandsons Richard and William de Canville
over land in Seckington, Warwickshire. [CRR XV no.394].
Perhaps more significantly an attorney also appeared in the curia regis
earlier that year on her behalf [CRR XV no. 160] with the prior of Monmouth
over the advowson of the priory. The fact that she had this patronage might
suggest that she was actually a de Monmouth widow, as Baderon de Monmouth
was great uncle of Walter de Cormeilles. Perhaps widow of Gilbert de Baderon
who died in 1190?
I suggest that as Douglas has clearly done no research into this connection,
he have a thorough look at the original sources of which there are plenty.
Cheers
Rosie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 5:25 AM
Subject: Re: Bishop's Kinsfolk: Bishop Godfrey Giffard's kinsman, William de
Beauchamp, Earl of Warwick
> ". Richard Cormeilles, his son, was father of a second Richard, and
Graeme Wall
te...@mairsphotography.com ("Terry Mair") wrote:
> I believe if you RE read my post you will see that I said "my person(l)
> oppinion is that the same surname from various origins in not (heres the
> important part) all that common," I never said it couldnt happen.
>
> But then again just because you havn't found the origen of each Smith
> family, in say England, does not mean their not all related now does it,
> your just assuming there not because of what you have been told about the
> origin of surnames, right.
IIRC occupational and geographic descriptors account for the majority of
surnames so it probably does mean they are not all related.
However feel free to believe whatever fantasy tickles your fancy, just don't
expect anyone else to take you seriously.
Douglas Richardson
Below are records relating to Aubrey Marmion, which records I have
labelled as pertaining to Aubrey Marmion #1 and Aubrey Marmion #2.
The first Aubrey Marmion held lands at Weston[-under-Edge], co.
Gloucester in 1213, which lands appear to be the same lands which this
Aubrey reportedly held in dower of the Cormeilles family in
Gloucestershire [see the abstract of the 1236 IPM of Margaret de
Cormeilles which I posted yesterday]. Aubrey Marmion #1 has been
identified at least twice in print as the widow of Walter de
Cormeilles (died c. 1204), which identification may or may not be
correct. The lands at Weston were subsequently held by Hugh Giffard,
husband of Walter de Cormeilles' daughter, Sibyl de Cormeilles. My
notes show that Hugh Giffard and Sibyl de Cormeilles were married
sometime before 18 March 1217.
The second Aubrey Marmion below is the one who married in or before
1205 William de Camville, of Seckington, co. Warwick, by whom she
appears to have had a son and heir, Goffrey de Camville. Aubrey
Marmion #2 is clearly identified in the records below as daughter of
Geoffrey Marmion. This Aubrey Marmion's son, Geoffrey de Camville,
was stated to be dead in 1220.
It is alleged by Gerald Paget's Baronage that the two Aubrey Marmions
are the same person, and that Aubrey Marmion married (1st) Walter de
Cormeilles, and (2nd) William de Camville. These statements may or
may not be true. It is possible that we are dealing with two Aubrey
Marmions, whose life histories have been collapsed into one
individual.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
- - - - - - - - - - -
I. Record pertaining to Aubrey Marmion #1.
Curia Regis Rolls 7 (1935), pp. 2-3:
Michaelmas term, 15 John 1213
"Glouc'. – Convenit inter Radulfum de Penebrig' querentem et Albredam
Marmiun de manerio de Weston', under idem Radulfus exigebat ab ea
servicium j. militis et unde ipsa non congnovit se tenere de eo, ita
quod ipsa recongnovit terram illam esse jus ipsius Radulfi et Radulfus
concessit ei terram illam tenendam de eo tota vita sua faciendo
servicium j militis; et post decessum ejus medietas illius terre
revertetur ad ipsum Radulfum vel heredes suos cum capitali mesagio et
cum tota advocacione ecclesie; et alia medietas remanebit heredibus
ipsius Albrede tenenda de ipso Radulfo et de heredibus suis per
servitium dimidii militis; et in escambium capitalis mesagii, quod
remanebit Radulfo, habebunt heredes Albrede de medietate ipsius
Radulfi j. mesagium adeo longum et latum sicut illud capitale mesagium
et pro advocatione ecclesie j. dimidiam virgatam terre. Set quoniam
ipsa Albreda entuit in capite terram prdeictam de domino rege et ei
inde fecit servicium, not potest recedere ab eo sine ejus licencia.
Et ideo habent diem in octabis sancti Martini."
II. Records relating to Aubrey Marmion #2.
Great Roll of the Pipe for the Seventh Year of the Reign of King John
Michaelmas 1205 (Pubs. of the Pipe Roll Soc. n.s. 19) (1941), pg. 230:
Michaelmas 1205 sub Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire
"Willelmus de Canuill' et Albreda uxor eius debent j m. pro habendo
breui de feodo dim. militis cum pertinentiis in Childecote."
- - - - - - - -
Curis Regis Rolls 3 (1926), pg. 284:
Easter Term, 6-7 John
1205
"Warr'. – Assisa ultime presentationis inter Willelmum de Canvill' et
Albredam uxorem ejus petentes et Simonen de Berkeston' de ecclesia de
Sechendon' ponitur in respectum usque in crastinum sancte Trinitatus
pro defectu recognitorum, quia quidam essoniaverunt se."
- - - - - -
Curia Regis Rolls 5 (1931), pp. 54-55:
Michaelmas term, 9 John. 1207
Dereb'. – Willelmus de Kanvill' pro se et Albreda uxore ejus, cujus
loco ponitur, petit versus Willelmum de Berkele feudum dimidi militis
cum petinentiis in Childecot' ut jus Albrede uxoris sue, unde
Gaufridus Marmiun pater ipsius Albrede seisitus fuit in dominico ut de
feudo et jure tempore Henrici regis patris etc. capiendo inde expleta
ad valenciam etc."
- - - - - - - - -
Curia Regis Rolls 8 (1938), pg. 238
Hilary Term, 4 Henry III
1220
Stafford': - Henricus de Alditheleg' summonitus fuit ad respondendum
Albrede Marmiun quo waranto se tenet in manerio de Clifton' cum
pertinentiis, quod ipsa clamat ut jus et hereditatem suam et quod ipsa
tradidit in custodiam Gaufrido de Camvill' filio suo quamdiu placeret
ei, qui mortuus est, ut dicit."
royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote in message news:<5cf47a19.0310...@posting.google.com>...
> "? Richard Cormeilles, his son, was father of a second Richard, and
Douglas Richardson
The biography of Bishop Godfrey Giffard (died 1301) copied below is
found on the website for the online edition of the Catholic
Encyclopedia at the following web address:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06551b.htm
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
- - - - - - - - - -
Biography of Godfrey Giffard:
Bishop of Worcester, b. about 1235; d. 26 Jan., 1301. He was the son
of Hugh Giffard of Boyton in Wiltshire, and Sybil, the daughter and
coheiress of Walter de Cormeilles. His elder brother Walter became
Archbishop of York (d. 1279). During the earlier part of his life his
success was bound up with that of his brother. When in May, 1264,
Walter was elected Bishop of Bath and Wells, Godfrey became canon and
subsequently archdeacon of Wells; he also held many other benefices,
although only in minor orders, and, as his enemies alleged, not
learned. When in August, 1265, Walter became chancellor, Godfrey in
1266 was appointed Chancellor of the Exchequer, with leave to appoint
a substitute to act during his absence; and when in October, 1266,
Walter was translated to York, Godfrey succeeded him as Chancellor of
England, and received further benefices from the new Archbishop of
York, becoming archdeacon of York and rector of Adlingfleet in 1267.
When Bishop Nicholas of Ely was translated from the See of Worcester
to that of Winchester, Godfrey was elected by the monks; he received
the temporalities of his see in June, 1268. One of his first acts as
bishop-elect was to obtain licence to continue the work, begun by
Walter Cantelupe, of building and fortifying Hartlebury Castle, which
has ever since been the principal palace of the bishops of Worcester.
His consecration took place at Canterbury, 23 Sept., 1268, and his
enthronement 25 December. During his chancellorship a parliament was
held at Marlbridge (52. H. 3) where many useful laws were passed for
restraining the abuse of distresses, regulating the incidence of
tenure, and improving civil and criminal procedure; the knowledge of
general jurisprudence they display is remarkable, and if he did not
frame them himself, he deserves credit for having had the wit to
employ the superior men who did. He continued in office as chancellor
until 28 Oct., 1269, when he handed over the seal to the king.
As bishop Giffard devoted himself to the care of his diocese which he
ruled for nearly thirty-four years. In the course of those years two
affairs caused him considerable trouble: the disputes with the monks
of Worcester cathedral, and that with Malvern Priory. The Worcester
feud lasted down to the bishop's death, and reached such a height that
when, in 1300, Archbishop Winchelsey visited the priory, the monks
presented a formal accusation against the bishop containing thirty-six
articles of varying importance to which Giffard's satisfactory answers
are still extant. The quarrel appears to date from 1288 when the monks
considered that the rights of the church of Worcester had been
infringed by the bishop's refusal to allow their precentor to summon
those who were to be ordained at an ordination at Westbury. The
feeling aroused was intensified by the bishop's attempt, in 1288, to
annex the churches in his gift to the prebends in the church of
Westbury. This was eventually decided in the bishop's favour in the
Arches Court in 1297. Relations were, moreover, strained because of
the unwillingness of the priory to admit the bishop's visitations. The
difficulty with the priory at Great Malvern was even more complicated.
The cause was a claim made by the priory to be independent of the
bishops of Worcester, and dependent upon the Abbot of Westminster. The
relations between the two houses had been settled in 1217. Giffard's
predecessors had had continual trouble with the same priory. The
present struggle with Richard of Ware, Abbot of Westminster lasted
from 1279 until 1283 and was not really ended then. The climax was
reached in September, 1282, when Giffard, as visitor, at the request
of some of the monks, deposed the unworthy prior, William of Ledbury.
A violent conflict followed, full of incidents, appeals, and
counter-appeals and finally the king had to intervene to bring about a
compromise.
Besides building the castle at Hartlebury, and rebuilding the church
there, Giffard built magnificent mansions at Wick and Alvechurch.
Moreover he ornamented the eastern part of the cathedral with the
small columns of marble having joints of gilded brass, which form one
of the most graceful characteristics of the present choir and Lady
chapel. Even after retiring from the chancellorship he is still found
exercising judicial functions, as when, in 1272, with Roger Mortimer
he enquired into the injuries done by the townspeople of Oxford to the
scholars; and, in 1278, he was at the head of the justices itinerant
for the counties of Hereford, Hertford, and Kent. He was buried on 4
Feb. in his cathedral church (Ann. Monast., IV, 551).
THOMAS, Antiquitates prioratus majoris Malverniae in agro Wicciensi,
cum chartis originalibus easdem illustrantibus, ex registris Sedis
Episcopalis Wigornisensis (London, 1725); IDEM, A Survey of the
Cathedral Church of Worcester, with an Account of the Bishops thereof
(London, 1736), 135-145; Annales Monastici, ed. LUARD in R. S.
(London, 1869), IV; Registrum Epistolarum J. Peckham, ed. MARTIN in R.
S. (London, 1884), II; TOUT in Dict. Nat. Biog., s. v.; SMITH AND
ONSLOW, Diocesan Histories: Worcester (London, 1883).
EDWARD MYERS
Transcribed by Kerry Smith
The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume VI
Tim Powys-Lybbe
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> The biography of Bishop Godfrey Giffard (died 1301) copied below is
> found on the website for the online edition of the Catholic
> Encyclopedia at the following web address:
>
> http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06551b.htm
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
> E-mail: royala...@msn.com
>
> - - - - - - - - - -
> Biography of Godfrey Giffard:
<snip>
> EDWARD MYERS
> Transcribed by Kerry Smith
>
> The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume VI
______________________________________________________________________
Hmmm...
It must be a miracle. So many of Edward Myers' phrases are just the
same as those in the earlier Dictionary of National Biography article
of 1889. And the flavour has been subtly changed by what has been left
out, too. Read On:
"Giffard, Godfrey 1235?-1302, chancellor of England and bishop of
Worcester, was the son of Hugh Giffard of Boyton in Wiltshire, a royal
justice, and of his wife Sibyl, daughter and coheiress of Walter de
Cormeilles. He was born about 1235 (Calendarium Genealogicum, p. 281).
He was the younger brother of Walter Giffard [q.v.], ultimately
archbishop of York, whose successful career insured the preferment of
Godfrey. When his brother was bishop of Bath and Wells, he became canon
of Wells (Newcourt, Repert. Eccl. Lond. i. 59) and rector of Mells. He
was also rector of the greater mediety of Attleburgh in Norfolk
(Blomefield, Norfolk, i. 523), archdeacon of Barnstaple from 1265 to
1267, and, after Walter became archbishop of York, archdeacon of York
and rector of Adlingfleet in 1267 (Raine, Fasti Eboracenses, p. 315
from Reg. W. Giffard). Complaints were afterwards made at Rome of the
way in which the archbishop gave this and many other benefices to his
brother, though Godfrey was only in minor orders and deficient in
learning. After Walter became chancellor of England in 1265, Godfrey in
1266 was made chancellor of the exchequer (Madox, Hist. of Exchequer,
i. 476), and next year was allowed to appoint a fit person to act for
him when his own affairs gave him occasion to withdraw from the
exchequer (ib. ii. 52). When in 1266 Walter was translated to York, he
resigned the chancellorship, and Godfrey was appointed his successor.
He was still chancellor when the monks of Worcester elected him as
their bishop on the translation of Bishop Nicholas of Ely [q.v.] to the
see of Winchester. Henry III accepted his appointment, and he received
the temporalities on 13 June 1268. After some little resistance,
Archbishop Boniface confirmed his election, but it was not until 23
Sept. that he was consecrated by the archbishop at Canterbury (‘Ann.
London.’ in Stubbs, Chronicles of Edward I and II, i. 79). He was
enthroned in his cathedral on Christmas day (Wykes in Annales
Monastici, iv. 220). He still retained the chancellorship, and in 1268
received a grant of five hundred marks a year for the support of
himself and the clerks of the chancery (Madox, i. 76), but before 1270
he had resigned the office.
"In 1272 he acted with the Bishop of Lichfield in treating with Llewelyn
of Wales (Shirley, Royal Letters, ii. 343). In May 1273 he was sent
abroad with Nicholas of Ely, bishop of Winchester, and Walter
Bronescomb, bishop of Exeter, to meet Edward I on his return from the
Holy Land. He was made a commissioner along with Roger Mortimer to
investigate certain grievances of the Oxford scholars, and in 1278
acted as an itinerant justice in Herefordshire, Hertfordshire, and Kent
(Foss, Judges of England, ii. 94). In 1279 he succeeded to the very
extensive property, inherited and acquired, of his brother the
archbishop. He was one of the four negotiators selected in 1289 by
Edward I to treat at Salisbury with the Scottish and Norwegian envoys
about sending Margaret of Norway to Scotland (Federa, i. 720).
"Giffard ruled over the see of Worcester for more than thirty-three
years, and his activity was almost confined to his own diocese. He was
engaged in constant disputes with his monastic chapter, long accounts
of which, written from the monks' point of view, have come down to us
in the ‘Annals of Worcester’ (Annales Monastici, vol. iv.). The great
subject of contention was whether the bishop should be allowed to annex
some of the more valuable livings in his gift to the prebends of the
college at Westbury, which led to tedious litigation, ultimately
decided in favour of the monks. But the claim of the bishop to receive
the monks' ‘profession’ produced other suits. In 1288, at an ordination
at Westbury, an unseemly dispute between the precentor of Worcester and
John of Evreux, archdeacon of Gloucester, a favourite nephew of the
bishop, as to who had the right to call over the names of the
candidates, led to the expulsion of the former from the chancel with
the connivance of the bishop (Ann. Wigorn. p. 496). A little later a
truce was patched up, but at Bromsgrove the bishop ‘would not permit
the prior to exercise his office, regardless of the peace that had been
made, which we believe to have been as vain as a peace with the Welsh.’
The monks also complained of his taking away the chapel at Grafton from
them, and of the constant efforts of the bishop to visit and to
exercise jurisdiction over them. In 1290 he held a visitation, and
required the convent to support his 140 horses, and went away in anger.
Though in 1290 he, at Bishop Burnell's mediation, revoked the statutes
of the priory and agreed to postpone the lawsuits, he soon after
procured from Rome a ‘very bad bull’ against them.
"Giffard was involved in another great dispute with the Abbot of
Westminster. He had deposed William of Ledbury, prior of Malvern, for
gross crimes. The monks of Westminster took up William's cause, as
Malvern was a cell of their abbey, and obtained the king's support. In
the end Giffard was glad to compromise the case, and received a grant
of land at Knightwick not to visit Malvern as his predecessors had done
(1283), and Ledbury was restored. This settlement Archbishop Peckham
denounced as simoniacal. Giffard had already been involved, like the
other suffragans to Canterbury, in the struggle against Peckham's
excessive claims of metropolitical jurisdiction. He afterwards,
however, became friendly with him, and sent the archbishop many costly
presents (Reg. Peckham, No. dli.). Giffard's many favours to the
Franciscans, whose general in 1277, and again in 1282, admitted him as
a brother of the order, must have procured him the friendship of the
Franciscan primate. His remissness in allowing the monks of the
cathedral to steal the body of one Henry Poche from the Franciscans and
bury it in their churchyard was in 1290 a new source of difference.
"In 1300 Giffard had become sick and infirm. He was in March visited by
Archbishop Winchelsey at Wyke. Next year William of Gloucester produced
thirty-six articles against him before the archbishop, when visiting
the diocese. They were mostly small, technical and legal, and included,
besides the old complaints of the chapter, a charge of manumitting
serfs without its consent, and unduly favouring his nephews. They were,
however, elaborately investigated, and the bishop's answers, which seem
fairly satisfactory, are recorded with the charges in his register.
Giffard died on Friday, 26 Jan. 1302, and was buried on 4 Feb. by John,
bishop of Llandaff, in Worcester Cathedral, on the south side of the
altar of the lady chapel, where his tomb is still to be seen. (There is
an engraving of it in Thomas's ‘Survey of Worcester Cathedral,’ p. 44.)
"Giffard's will, dated 13 Sept. 1300, left a large number of legacies to
kinsfolk, including his sister Mabel, abbess of Shaftesbury, and to
various churches. His heir was John, son of his younger brother,
William Giffard (Calendarium Genealogicum, p. 625) who, fighting on the
baronial side at Boroughbridge, was hanged at Gloucester, and forfeited
his estates to the crown. They were soon, however, restored, and in
later times the Giffords of Weston-sub-Edge assumed the arms of the see
of Worcester in memory of an ancestor who had done so much for the
family (Hoare, Wiltshire, i. 204). Despite his quarrels with the
chapter, Giffard was a benefactor of his cathedral, and beautified the
pillars of the choir and lady chapel by interlacing them with little
pillars. In 1280 he laid the first stone of the pavement of the
cathedral (Ann. Wigorn. p. 479). One of his first acts was to obtain
leave to fortify and finish Hartlebury Castle which Bishop Cantelupe
[q.v.] had begun. He extorted from Bishop Cantelupe's executors a
legacy left to the see, for supplying a stock of cattle on the lands of
the bishopric. He obtained a grant of fairs to Stratford-on-Avon and
Blockley. He also secured permission to fortify his palace at Worcester
and Wydindon like that at Hartlebury.
"Sources
"The fullest account of Giffard is in Thomas's Survey of Worcester
Cathedral, pp. 135-54, largely derived from his still surviving
Register, large extracts of which, including his will and the ‘Articuli
contra Godfridum episcopum Wygornensem et responsiones ejusdem,’ are
printed in the ‘Appendix chartarum originalium.’ His relations with
Malvern Priory are fully told in Thomas's Antiquitates prioratus
majoris Melverniæ, which prints from the Register all his acts relating
to that convent; Martin's Registrum Epistolarum Johannis Peckham (Rolls
Ser.) gives several of his letters and a large number of Peckham's to
him, and in the introduction to vol. ii. Mr. Martin summarises the
Malvern question; Raine's Fasti Eboracenses, in the notice of Walter
Giffard, gives what is known of his early history; Dugdale's Baronage,
i. 424, or, still better, Hoare's Wiltshire, i. 196-204, for an account
of his family; Annals of Winchester, Wykes, and more particularly the
Annals of Worcester in Annales Monastici, vols. ii. and iv.; Foss's
Judges of England, iii. 93-4; Roberts's Calendarium Genealogicum.
"Contributor: T. F. T.
"published 1889"
Douglas Richardson
Thanks for posting the information regarding Bishop Godfrey Giffard
from the Dictionary of National Biography. Much appreciated. Bishop
Giffard definitely had an interesting career.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
Tim Powys-Lybbe <t...@powys.org> wrote in message news:<699f3a4...@south-frm.demon.co.uk>...
> Sept. that he was consecrated by the archbishop at Canterbury (?Ann.
> London.? in Stubbs, Chronicles of Edward I and II, i. 79). He was
> enthroned in his cathedral on Christmas day (Wykes in Annales
> Monastici, iv. 220). He still retained the chancellorship, and in 1268
> received a grant of five hundred marks a year for the support of
> himself and the clerks of the chancery (Madox, i. 76), but before 1270
> he had resigned the office.
SNIP
Rosie Bevan
Thank you for presenting some useful original sources to the group.
Now that you see the chronological difficulty posed by Albreda Marmion being
wife of both Walter de Cormeilles, d.c. 1204, and William de Canville,
d.betw 1207-1210; and taking into account that Albreda Marmion, who was
daughter of Geoffrey Marmion, in 1228 quitclaimed all her right in
Llanstephen to William de Canville [CP VIII p.508 note (h) citing Close
Rolls, 1227-31, p.114], how do you now reconcile this with the pedigree you
originally posted? Do you still think Godfrey Giffard is the great grandson
of Geoffrey Marmion of Llanstephen, and if so, why?
Cheers
Rosie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 10:01 PM
Subject: Re: Bishop's Kinsfolk: Bishop Godfrey Giffard's kinsman, William de
Beauchamp, Earl of Warwick
> "Glouc'. - Convenit inter Radulfum de Penebrig' querentem et Albredam
> "Warr'. - Assisa ultime presentationis inter Willelmum de Canvill' et
> Albredam uxorem ejus petentes et Simonen de Berkeston' de ecclesia de
> Sechendon' ponitur in respectum usque in crastinum sancte Trinitatus
> pro defectu recognitorum, quia quidam essoniaverunt se."
>
> - - - - - -
> Curia Regis Rolls 5 (1931), pp. 54-55:
>
> Michaelmas term, 9 John. 1207
>
> Dereb'. - Willelmus de Kanvill' pro se et Albreda uxore ejus, cujus
Douglas Richardson
Thank you for your good post.
I believe it's still a bit early to tell exactly what we are seeing in
the records. We may have two Aubrey Marmion's on our hands, not one
just one. Or, we may have two Walter de Cormeilles, not just one.
Or, we may have two Geoffrey de Camvilles, not just one. Any of these
situations could throw a wild card into the mix.
One thing that I'm puzzled about is that Walter de Cormeilles
reportedly died c. 1204, and the following year I find that Aubrey
Marmion is mentioned as the wife of William de Camville. If Aubrey
Marmion was Walter de Cormeilles' widow, this is just what we would
expect to find. However, you've correctly observed that Aubrey
Marmion was almost surely married to William de Camville long before
1205. If true, then we may be dealing with two Aubrey Marmion's. Or,
if there is just one Aubrey, she can't have married Walter de
Cormeilles, if he really died c. 1204.
The evidence we have collected so far tells us that an Aubrey Marmion
held Cormeilles family property at Weston, co. Gloucester in dower in
1213, which property subsequently fell to Walter de Cormeilles'
son-in-law, Hugh Giffard. This Aubrey Marmion (who I have labelled
Aubrey Marmion #1) reportedly held these lands as tenant in chief to
the king. If correct, I would expect there would be some mention of
her in the Pipe Rolls sometime in the period 1200-1236.
Unfortunately, I don't have the time right now to go through the Pipe
Rolls looking for such a reference. If such a reference can be found,
it might identify her as the wife of William de Camville. If so, then
we would know there was only one Aubrey Marmion.
If there were two Walter de Cormeilles, it's possible that Aubrey
Marmion was married to Walter, Sr., by whom she had Walter, Jr., and
the four known Cormeilles daughters. If so, it could be Walter, Jr.,
who died c. 1204, not Walter, Sr. This scenario would permit Aubrey
Marmion to marry Walter de Cormeilles, Sr., be widowed say c. 1190,
and then marry William de Camville. In 1204, her son, Walter de
Cormeilles, Jr., would die without issue, leaving his 4 sisters as his
co-heirs. Aubrey's next surviving son, Geoffrey de Camville, would
then die with issue in 1219. Geoffrey de Camville's issue would then
inherit Aubrey's lands on her death c. 1233. I haven't studied the
chronology to see if this scenario would work, however. I'd
appreciate your thoughts on this possible scenario.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
rbe...@paradise.net.nz (Rosie Bevan) wrote in message news:<04ec01c3a01e$80b64dc0$cd00a8c0@rosie>...
Reedpcgen
>the records.
So, that would mean no certain position (I take it).
That would at least answer one of her queries. Is Rosie supposed to answer the
other one and sort all this out, or had you already evaluated this material (as
per your previous posts?)?
Paul
Chris Phillips
> If there were two Walter de Cormeilles, it's possible that Aubrey
> Marmion was married to Walter, Sr., by whom she had Walter, Jr., and
> the four known Cormeilles daughters. If so, it could be Walter, Jr.,
> who died c. 1204, not Walter, Sr. This scenario would permit Aubrey
> Marmion to marry Walter de Cormeilles, Sr., be widowed say c. 1190,
> and then marry William de Camville. In 1204, her son, Walter de
> Cormeilles, Jr., would die without issue, leaving his 4 sisters as his
> co-heirs. Aubrey's next surviving son, Geoffrey de Camville, would
> then die with issue in 1219. Geoffrey de Camville's issue would then
> inherit Aubrey's lands on her death c. 1233. I haven't studied the
> chronology to see if this scenario would work, however. I'd
> appreciate your thoughts on this possible scenario.
It seems difficult chronologically to have Sibyl's father dying c. 1190 if
the estimate of c. 1135 for the birth date of her son Godfrey is correct
(posted by Doug and Tim).
The more Iook at the evidence that's been posted about Aubreye's connection
to the Cormeilles family, the more puzzling I find it:
(1) The curia regis roll, 1213, if I understand correctly, concerns a
dispute between Ralph de Pembridge and Aubreye Marmion over the manor of
Weston, Gloucestershire, for which Ralph required from her the service of
one knight, but she did not recognise that she held as his tenant. It was
agreed that she should hold it of him for the service of one knight, and
then, essentially, that half of it should go to Ralph and his heirs, and the
other half should be held by Aubreye's heirs as tenants of Ralph and his
heirs, as half a knight's fee. But then it notes that it had been held by
Aubreye in chief, so that royal licence was required (posted by Doug).
(2) In 1233 there was a dispute between Aubreye Marmion and the prior of
Monmouth, over the advowson of Monmouth Priory.
(3) The Gloucestershire inquisition post mortem of Margaret/Margery de
Cormeilles [1236] says that "Albreda de Marmiun sometime held certain lands
of the king in chief in dower, which lands Henry de Penebrigg' now holds of
Hugh Giffard, and he of the king in chief" (posted by Rosie and Doug).
What I really don't understand is how the agreement in (1) could have
resulted in land being held by Henry de Pembridge of Hugh Giffard, and by
Hugh in chief. If Hugh held as one of Aubreye's heirs, shouldn't he have
held as a tenant of the Pembridge family, not vice versa? I wonder if the
two holdings are actually different ones - I also don't understand how
Aubreye would have been able to agree to the settlement in (1) if the land
was only her dower.
Perhaps the early history of Weston manor and the advowson of Monmouth has
been documented, and would give us some clues. Unfortunately, Weston doesn't
seem to have been covered by the Victoria County History.
Chris Phillips
Douglas Richardson
>
> It seems difficult chronologically to have Sibyl's father dying c. 1190 if
> the estimate of c. 1135 for the birth date of her son Godfrey is correct
> (posted by Doug and Tim).
>
Dear Chris ~
I think that it is still within reasonable bounds to place Walter de
Cormeilles's death at 1190, and his grandson, Godfrey Giffard's birth
at c. 1235. Godfrey Giffard must have been one of the younger, if not
the youngest, child of his mother, Sibyl de Cormeilles. Sibyl de
Cormeilles married Hugh Giffard in or before 1217; Hugh being her 2nd
husband. If we placed Sibyl's birth at c. 1190, it would make her 27
at her 2nd marriage, and 45 at the birth of her son, Godfrey.
This is all pure speculation. I believe further records will be
located which will help us to sort these families out.