Lanvallei + Beauchamp + Mowbray
Henry Sutliff
of Maud de Beachuamp (d. 1273), wife of Roger de Mowbray (d. 1266). The
answer given at the time was that Maud was the daughter of William de
Beauchamp (d. 1260) of Bedford and his wife Gunnora de Lanvaley and
sister and co-heir of her brother John de Beauchamp. Citations for this
included: CP IX:375-76.
Using the CP IX 375-76 notes, I find that Maud was sister and co-heir of
her brother Simon de Beauchamp ( a possible unintentional
misidentification error of the person who posted the answer), along with
her sisters: Beatrice who m (1) Thomas FitzOtes and (2) William
Munchensy of Edwarstone and Ela, first wife of Baldwin Wake.
This source does not state that Maud was a half-sister of Beatrice or
Ela, who were I thought daughters of William de Beauchamp and Ida de
Longespee. So is the marriage of William to Gunnora correct? Also to
which wife does Simon belong and if the identification of Gunnora as
Maud's mother is correct, then was Gunnora a daughter of William de
Lanvallei of Wakerly, Essex by his wife Gunnora, daughter of Hubert St.
Clare?
Any clarifications are appreciated. I would note that Sanders' English
Baronies was also given as a citation, however, I do not have access to
this.
Henry Sutliff
ss...@earthlink.net
gmsbarne
Richard Borthwick
says that John (who d.1265 at the battle of Eversham) is the brother from
whom the sisters inherited. William I, Maud's father, was followed by
William II (d.1262) his second but eldest surviving son. Presumably Simon
was the eldest but not the eldest surving son [CP XII/2:300 cf note (f)
where Ela's daughters are said to be the heirs of John de Beauchamp a
younger brother of Simon].
Ela who m. Baldwin Wake (d.1281/82) was the dau. of William I de Beauchamp
and his second wife Ida Longespee [CP XII/2:300]. My notes indicate that Ela
was the only dau. of William I by Ida but they don't indicate my source for
that remark! Ida's first husband was Ralph II de Somery who d.s.p. before
1120 [Sanders p.113 & note 9]. Gunnora d. before 1122 and I have no data as
to when Ida married William I. Maud's husband, Roger, was a still minor in
1234 but was of age when he succeeded his brother in 1241 [CP IX:375]. This
suggests that he was born in or before 1220. If Maud was roughly of an age
with her husband she could have been a daughter by Gunnora de Lanvaley. This
the best I can do at the present.
After 1120 when the lands of Eudo the dapifer escheated to the crown, the
barony of Walkern in Herts was formed and granted to Hamo de St Clair.
Hamo's son Hubert was living in 1155 and the latter's daughter, Gunnora, was
his heir. She married William I de Lanvaley (d.1180) and they were succeeded
by their son William II (d.1204)[Sanders p.92]. The latter's dau. Gunnora
(d. before 1122) m. as his first wife William I de Beauchchamp (d.1260) of
Bedford [Sanders p.10 note 7].
>
Alan B. Wilson
rg...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au (Richard Borthwick) wrote:
I notice in Weis, Ancestral Roots, line 122A (prepared by Douglas
Richardson), that Ida de Longespee is reported to have married William de
Beauchamp by 1220 (122A:29). In 122A:30 Richardson lists Beatrice de
Beauchamp as "3rd dau. and coh." of Ida de Longespee & William de
Beauchamp. This would seem to imply that all three daughters--Maud, Ela,
and Beatrice--were daughters of Ida; none were daughters of Gunnora de
Lanvaley (who had died before 1220 [Sanders pp. 10-11 note 7]).
Richardson in 122A:29-30 makes reference to CP II 233-235, XI
110-111, 382; Pubs. of the Bedforshire Hist Rec. Soc. I 10-16, esp. chart
p. 25, II 233-235; Knights of Edward I, II 49-50, III 279-180. [I assume
279-280 is intended.] We might examine these sources mentioned by
Richardson to see whether they confirm this inference about the parentage
of the daughters.
--
Alan B. Wilson
abwi...@uclink2.berkeley.edu
Alan B. Wilson
C. Gore Chambers and G. Herbert Fowler, "The Beauchamps, barons of
Bedford," The Publications of the Bedfordshire Historical Record Society,
i, 1913, 1-25, present the following descent from Hugh de Beauchamp who
held 43 manors at Domesday.
Beauchamp ["B."] of Bedford
Hugh de B. = Matilda [de Taillebois ?]
|
‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹
| |
Simon de B. Robert de B.
|
Payne de B.=(2)Rohese de Vere(1)=Geoffrey de Mandeville
|
Simon de B. = Isabella
|
ca 1207 | ca 1220
Gunnora de Lanvelay=(1)William de B.(2)=Ida de Longespee
(d. bef. 1221) | (d. 1260) | (d. ca. 1268)
| |
|-John de B. |-Simon de B.
(d. bef. 1233) | (d.v.p.s.p.m. 1256)
| | (dau. Joan de B. d. ca. 1266)
Male Heir |
(? d. by 1235) |-William de B.
| (d.s.p. 1262)
|
|-John de B.
| (d.s.p. 1265)
|
|-Maud de B.
| (d. bef. 1275)
| m(1) Roger de Mowbray
| m(2) Roger l'Estrange
|
|-Ela de B.
| (d. bef. 1266/7)
| m. Baldwin Wake
|
|-Beatrice de B.
| (d. ca. 1280/1)
| m(1) Thomas FitzOtho
| m(2) William Montchensy
There is substantial documentation from primary sources about all of
the persons in this table except for the three daughters--Maud, Ela, and
Beatrice--who are presented, with their offspring, in tabular form on p.
25 of the article.
Clearly Chambers and Fowler assign these daughters without question
to the marriage of William de Beauchamp and Ida de Longespee. Since Ela
who m. Baldwin Wake was the dau. of Ida de Longespee, Beatrice, the third
dau., also must have been.
I do not see any "proof" of Maud, the eldest daughter's, mother, but
Chambers and Fowler seemed to be quite cautious in their inferences; their
thesis did not require their presenting this proof; and the dates do
permit one to accept that Maud was also a daughter of Ida as they affirm.
[If her first husband, Roger de Mowbray, was born ca. 1220, roughly the
date of Ida's marriage, Maud might well have been born shortly after.]
Alan B. Wilson
Beachamp, wife of Roger de Mowbray. There has been some discussion of
whether Maud's mother was Ida de Longespee. Henry Sutliff also inquired
about the first wife of William de Beauchamp, Gunnora de Lanvelay and her
parentage. Because my sources indicated that Ida was the probable mother
of Maud, I have skipped over this inquiry about Gunnora.
What I have for the immediate ancestry of Gunnora de Lanvaley
follows. I would be pleased if anyone can correct or add to this.
First Generation
‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹
1 Gunnora de Lanvaley.[353, p. 11],[501],[502] Gunnora de Lanvaley died
bef 1220.[353, p. 11 +],[501, + (by 1220)]
bef 1208 Gunnora de Lanvaley married William de BEAUCHAMP Lord of
Bedford[74],[353, p. 10],[501],[502].[501]
Second Generation
‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹
2 William II de Lanvaley.[353, p. 11],[502] William II de Lanvaley died in
1204.[353, p. 92] Baron of Walkern (Herts) [353, p. 92].
3 Hawise de Bocland.[502]
Third Generation
‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹
4 William I de Lanvaley.[353, p. 92],[502] William I de Lanvaley died in
1180.[353, p. 92 +] Baron of Walkern (Herts) [353, p. 92].
5 Gunnora de St. Clair.[353, p. 92],[502] Heiress of Walkern (Herts)
[353, p. 92].
6 Hugh de Bocland.[502]
Fourth Generation
‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹
10 Hubert de St. Clair.[353, p. 92],[502] Hubert de St. Clair was alive in
1155.[353, p. 92] Baron of Walkern (Herts) [353, p. 92].
11 Clemence.[502] Born ca 1125.[502, *] Clemence was alive in 1185.[502]
Fifth Generation
‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹
20 Hamo de St. Clair.[353, p. 92],[502],[506] Hamo de St. Clair was alive
in 1120.[353, p. 92] Baron of Walkern (Herts).[353, p. 92]
21 Gunnora BIGOD.[82, 660:03*],[41, iv, p. 578],[502],[506].
Sixth Generation
‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹
42 Roger BIGOD.[41, i, 230-268; ix, 366-388, 568-638],[75, see
155:1],[233, iii, 705],[411, p. 470 (table 11)],[455, p. 2],[506],[82,
437:08*] Roger died in Earsham (Norfk) on 15 Sep 1107.[233],[41] Buried
in Norwich Cathedral, Norwich (Norfk).[41],[233] sheriff of Norfolk &
Suffolk.[41]
43 Adeliza (Alice) de TOENI.[233, iii, 705],[41, ix, 366-388,
568-638],[75, see 155:1],[353, p. 12],[506],[82, 437:09*] Adeliza (Alice)
died aft 1136.[41],[353, p. 12 + (post Aug, 1127)]
REFERENCES
41. Cokayne, George Edward, 1825-1911, Vicary Gibbs (ed.), The complete
peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, and the United Kingdon, London: The
St. Catherine Press, ltd., 1910-1959. 13 v. in 14.
74. Weis, Frederick Lewis, Ancestral roots of certain American colonists
who came to America before 1700; 7th ed., with additions and correctiuons
by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr. ; assisted by David Faris, Baltimore, MD:
Genealogical Publishing Co., 1992.
75. Weis, Frederick Lewis, The Magna Charta Surities, 1215, 4th ed., with
additions and corrections by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr., with David Faris,
Baltimore, MD: Genealogical Publishing Co., 1991.
82. Call, Michel L., Royal Ancestors of Some American Families ; Pedigree
Charts., Printed by the author, 1991.
233. Schwennicke, Detlev (ed.), Europaische Stammtafeln : Stammtafeln zur
Geschichte der europaischen Staaten / begrundet von Wilhelm Karl Prinz zu
Isenburg ; fortgefuhrt von Frank Baron Freytag von Loringhoven ; neue
Folge herausgegeben vonŠ., Marburg: Stargardt, 1978-<1995 >.
353. Sanders, I. J., English Baronies: a study of their origin and
descent, 1086-1327, Oxford: The Clarendon Press, 1960.
411. Barlow, Frank, William Rufus, Berkeley: University of California
Press, 1983.
455. Burke, Sir Bernard, Dormant, Abeyant, Forfeited, and Extinct Peerages
of the British Empire, Baltimore, MD: Genealogical Publishing Co., 1996.
Reprinted from edition originally published in London by Burke¹s Peerage, 1883.
501. Chambers, C. Gore and G. Herbert Fowler, ³The Beauchamps, barons of
Bedford,² The Publications of the Bedfordshire Historical Record Society,
i, 1913, 1-25.
502. Fowler, G. Herbert, ³The Beauchamps, barons of Eaton,² The
Publications of the Bedfordshire Historical Record Society, ii, 1914,
61-91.
506. Keats-Rohan, K. S. B., ³Belvoir: The Heirs of Robert and Berengar de
Tosny,² Prosopon, 9, Unit for Prosopographical Research, July 1998.
Richard Borthwick
> On 13 Sep Henry Sutliff inquired about the mother of Maud de
>Beachamp, wife of Roger de Mowbray. There has been some discussion of
>whether Maud's mother was Ida de Longespee. Henry Sutliff also inquired
>about the first wife of William de Beauchamp, Gunnora de Lanvelay and her
>parentage. Because my sources indicated that Ida was the probable mother
>of Maud, I have skipped over this inquiry about Gunnora.
> What I have for the immediate ancestry of Gunnora de Lanvaley
>follows. I would be pleased if anyone can correct or add to this.
>
>First Generation
>‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹
>
>1 Gunnora de Lanvaley.[353, p. 11],[501],[502] Gunnora de Lanvaley died
>bef 1220.[353, p. 11 +],[501, + (by 1220)]
>
>bef 1208 Gunnora de Lanvaley married William de BEAUCHAMP Lord of
>Bedford[74],[353, p. 10],[501],[502].[501]
>
>
>Second Generation
>‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹
>
>2 William II de Lanvaley.[353, p. 11],[502] William II de Lanvaley died in
>1204.[353, p. 92] Baron of Walkern (Herts) [353, p. 92].
>
>
>
>Third Generation
>‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹
>
>4 William I de Lanvaley.[353, p. 92],[502] William I de Lanvaley died in
>1180.[353, p. 92 +] Baron of Walkern (Herts) [353, p. 92].
>
>5 Gunnora de St. Clair.[353, p. 92],[502] Heiress of Walkern (Herts)
>[353, p. 92].
>
>6 Hugh de Bocland.[502]
*7 Maud. Widow of Piers de Lutegareshale. Mother of Geoffrey fitz Piers earl
of Essex. [41, v, Table facing p.116, p.122]
>
>Fourth Generation
>‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹
>
>10 Hubert de St. Clair.[353, p. 92],[502] Hubert de St. Clair was alive in
>1155.[353, p. 92] Baron of Walkern (Herts) [353, p. 92].
>
>11 Clemence.[502] Born ca 1125.[502, *] Clemence was alive in 1185.[502]
>
>
>Fifth Generation
>‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹
>
>20 Hamo de St. Clair.[353, p. 92],[502],[506] Hamo de St. Clair was alive
>in 1120.[353, p. 92] Baron of Walkern (Herts).[353, p. 92]
>
>21 Gunnora BIGOD.[82, 660:03*],[41, iv, p. 578],[502],[506].
I have not been able to locate this marriage. 41 and 506 mention her
marriage to Robert fitz Swein but not (as far as I can see) one to Hamo. Is
it a sure thing? Robert died between 1132 and 1140 [Sanders, 139].
>Folge herausgegeben vonٹ., Marburg: Stargardt, 1978-<1995 >.
Alan B. Wilson
rg...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au (Richard Borthwick) wrote:
> At 12:37 AM 22/09/98 GMT, you wrote:
[snip]
> >Fifth Generation
> >‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹
> >
> >20 Hamo de St. Clair.[353, p. 92],[502],[506] Hamo de St. Clair was alive
> >in 1120.[353, p. 92] Baron of Walkern (Herts).[353, p. 92]
> >
> >21 Gunnora BIGOD.[82, 660:03*],[41, iv, p. 578],[502],[506].
> I have not been able to locate this marriage. 41 and 506 mention her
> marriage to Robert fitz Swein but not (as far as I can see) one to Hamo. Is
> it a sure thing? Robert died between 1132 and 1140 [Sanders, 139].
> >
K. S. B. Keats-Rohan [506] says: ". . . Roger's daughters Gunnor and
Matilda were married soon after 1107. Gunnor's marriage to Robert fitz
Swein of Essex had perhaps been arranged by her father. . . ."
"In 1129 the sole surviving issue of Robert de Tosny were his younger
daughters Adelisa Bigod and Agnes de Beaufour, who was then already
married to Hubert de Ryes. At that date his Bigod granddaughter Matilda
de Albini was probably already dead and her sister Gunnor not long removed
from her second marriage to Haimo de St Clair. . . ."
Earlier G. Herbert Fowler [502] identifies the wives of Hamo de St.
Clare as (1) Gunnora, dau. of Roger Bigod and Adeliza; wid. of Robert of
Essex; and (2) Margaret, dau. of Robert de Chesney and Avelina. His chart
showing the descent, however, leaves ambiguous which wife of Hamo was
mother of Hubert.
Gunnora Bigod = Hamo de St. Clare = Margaret de Chesney
|
Clemence = Hubert de St. Clare
|
Gunnora de St. Clare = William de Lanvelay
I fear it was I who made the inference that Gunnora de St. Clare was
named after her grandmother, Gunnora Bigod; I do not find it explicitly
stated in Fowler.
Leslie Hauck
of William III de Lanvaley ?
English Baronies by I. J. Sanders does not mention his mother.
Thank you. Leslie Hauck <lha...@efn.org>
Richard Borthwick wrote in message
<1.5.4.32.1998092...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>...
>At 12:37 AM 22/09/98 GMT, you wrote:
>>‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹
>>
>>20 Hamo de St. Clair.[353, p. 92],[502],[506] Hamo de St. Clair was alive
>>in 1120.[353, p. 92] Baron of Walkern (Herts).[353, p. 92]
>>
>>21 Gunnora BIGOD.[82, 660:03*],[41, iv, p. 578],[502],[506].
>I have not been able to locate this marriage. 41 and 506 mention her
>marriage to Robert fitz Swein but not (as far as I can see) one to Hamo. Is
>it a sure thing? Robert died between 1132 and 1140 [Sanders, 139].
>>
>>353. Sanders, I. J., English Baronies: a study of their origin and
>>descent, 1086-1327, Oxford: The Clarendon Press, 1960.
>>411. Barlow, Frank, William Rufus, Berkeley: University of California
>>Press, 1983.
>>455. Burke, Sir Bernard, Dormant, Abeyant, Forfeited, and Extinct Peerages
>>of the British Empire, Baltimore, MD: Genealogical Publishing Co., 1996.
>>Reprinted from edition originally published in London by Burke¹s Peerage,
1883.
>>501. Chambers, C. Gore and G. Herbert Fowler, ³The Beauchamps, barons of
>>i, 1913, 1-25.