Identity of King Henry II's mistress, Nest [Corrected Post]

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

The on-going discussion about King Henry II's mistress, Countess Ida,
and their son, William Longespee, has blurred the fact that King Henry
II had other mistresses and other illegitimate children. It is well
known that King Henry II had a Welsh mistress named Nest, by whom he
had an illegitimate son, Morgan, a clerk. Nest subsequently married
Ralph Bluet, Knt., of Silchester, Hampshire (died c. 1199), by whom
she had further lawful issue. To my knowledge, Nest's identity is not
commonly known.

Some time ago, however, I found a good account of Nest's husband,
Sir Ralph Bluet, in the book, William Marshal: Court, Career and
Chivalry in the Angevin Empire, 1147-1219, by David Crouch, pp.
139-140, 198-199. Mr. Crouch identifies Ralph Bluet's wife, Nest, as
daughter (or sister) of Iowerth ap Owain, lord of Caerleon. To my
knowledge, Mr. Crouch's book is the only source which identifies
Nest's parentage. Mr. Crouch gives his sources which I haven't yet
checked. I did check Peter Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies for Nest, and,
as I recall, she was listed there on a chart for her father.

As for King Henry II and Nest's son, Morgan, he held a ecclesiastical
post in England as Provost of Beverley. He was subsequently nominated
as Bishop of Durham in 1215. He travelled to Rome, but his election
was quashed by the Pope. He died prior to 1217 [References: C.
Given-Wilson & A. Curteis, Royal Bastards of Medieval England (1984),
pp. 9-10,99,130,179; N. Vincent, Letters & Charters of Cardinal Guala
Bicchiere Papal Legate in England 1216-1218 (Canterbury & York Soc.,
vol. 83) (1996), pg. 55].

If anyone has any particulars on Iowerth ap Owain, lord of Caerleon,
I'd appreciate hearing from them. As a descendant of Nest's
legitimate son, Ralph Bluet, Jr., I have Iowerth ap Owain in my own
ancestry.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

E-mail: royala...@msn.com

[The...@aol.com]

Sunday, 15 December, 2002

Dear Douglas,

I believe the 'Iorwerth ap Owain' you are seeking information on was none
other than 'Iorwerth ap Owain Gwynedd', also known as 'Iorwerth Drwyndwn'.
His association with Caerleon is that of conquest according to the Brut y
Tywysogion [relevant text provided below]. He was the elder son and heir of
Owain Gwynedd, king of Gwynedd or northern Wales (called 'prince' following
submission to Henry II of England) until his death, 28 November 1170.

Iorwerth was supplanted by his younger half-brother Dafydd ap Owain (d.
1194), who himself was later expelled by Llywelyn 'Fawr', son of Iorwerth.
Dafydd was married to Emma, illegitimate half-sister of Henry II. Given that
Llywelyn was born say 1173, and that Dafydd (his uncle) was married to Henry
II's sister, a relationship was most likely between a sister of Dafydd
(half-sister of Iorwerth) or a much older sister of Llywelyn (and daughter of
Iorwerth). The latter seems believable, in that Iorwerth had sons old
enough to meet at Bristol in 1172 to discuss peace with the English [see
below].

This should be yet another interesting addition to the Anglo-Welsh family
tree. Keep up the great work!

Best always,

John *

_____________________

from the Brut y Tywysogion: see
The Chronicle of Ystrad Fflur [aka Strata Florida],
taken from Brut y Tywysogion (Peniarth MS. 20).


http://www.webexcel.ndirect.co.uk/gwarnant/hanes/chronicle/chroniclearglwyddrh

ys.htm

1172 In this year died Cadwaladr ap Gruffudd ap Cynan.
And the king granted truce to Iorwerth ab Owain and his
sons to come and discuss peace with him. And Owain ab
Iowerth was slain by the earl of Bristol's men. And
after that Iorwerth and Hywel, his brother, placing no
trust in the king, ravaged the lands around Gloucester
and Hereford, pillaging and slaying without mercy.

And the king left Rhys ap Gruffudd as justice on his
behalf in all of Deheubarth and went to France.

1173 In this year many men and animals died, nor was it
surprising: for there was born to Rhys a son by the
daughter of Maredudd, his brother.
And Iorwerth ab Owain took the castle of Caerleon by
force.
And Dafydd ab Owain gained possession of all anglesey,
after driving Maelgwn, his brother, to Ireland.

1174 In this year Dafydd ab Owain gained possession of all
Gwynedd, after expelling all his brothers and uncles.

1175 In this year Dafydd ab Owain seized through treachery
Rhodri, his uterine brother, and harshly imprisoned him.
And Dafydd then married the king's sister, Emma of
Anjou, - because he thought he could hold his territory
in peace thereby. But before the end of the year Rhodri
escaped and drove his brother from Anglesey and across
the Conway.
And Rhys ap Gruffudd took with him to the king's council
at Gloucester all the princes of Wales who had incurred
the king's displeasure. All those returned with Rhys,
having obtained peace, to their own lands.

And immediately after that Seisyll ap Dyfnwal was slain
through treachery in the castle of Abergavenny by the
lord of Brycheiniog. And along with him Geoffrey, his
son, and the best men of Gwent were slain. And the
French made for Seisyll's court; and after seizing
Gwladus, his wife, they slew Cadwaladr, his son. And
from that day there befell a pitiful massacre in Gwent.
And from that time forth, after that treachery, none of
the Welsh dared place trust in the French.

[The...@aol.com]

Sunday, 15 December, 2002

Dear Douglas,

It does appear that I may have misled myself and you (and
others of SGM) in identifying Iorwerth Drwyndwn ap Owain as
the Iorwerth ap Owain of Caerleon. While they were
relatively contemporaneous, I find a source which makes
reference to the Iorwerth of Caerleon as belonging to the
family of the kings of Gwent, in SE Wales [1]. This source
also indicates it was this Iorwerth ap Owain who, together
with his brother Morgan, ambushed and killed Richard de
Clare near Abergavenny in 1136. [Certainly gives a good
source for Nest's son's name...]

Interestingly, one source [without citation] claims that
when Iorwerth 'Drwyndwn' fled from his brother Dafydd, he
took refuge with Iorwerth ap Owain in Gwent.

I will keep my eyes out for other details re: the kings
of Gwent, as this appears to be the correct field in which
to thresh out the desired information.

Good luck, and good hunting.

John *

___________________

from the site address:
http://www.cf.ac.uk/hisar/conferences/tag99/cult.html

Theoretical Archaeology Group
Cardiff 1999

'Architectural ethnic cleansing?' - The demise of the Roman
tetrapylon in Caerleon
Ray Howell (Coleg Prifysgol Cymru, Casnewydd/University of
Wales College, Newport)
Excavations in the Legionary Fortress Museum Garden in
Caerleon, directed by David Zienkiewicz in 1992, confirmed the
existence of a tetrapylon, a four-way triumphal arch, at the
centre of the fortress of Isca. Similar structures survive from
other parts of the Empire; one of the most notable examples is
from Leptis Magna in Libya. The structure would have provided
an imposing central focus as well as a statement of political
intent. A particularly interesting aspect of the excavation was
clear evidence that the structure stood well into the Middle
Ages when it was undermined and demolished. As the excavator
noted, this was a case of the demolition of a standing
structure and not just stone robbing. The situation was very
similar to that at the nearby fortress baths which were also
dismantled in the medieval period. Recent close examination of
the ceramic finds from the demolition horizons suggests that
the tetrapylon, like the baths, was demolished in the
thirteenth century, probably before c1260. It seems highly
likely that the 'lofty-tower' described by Gerald of Wales in
1188 was in fact the tetrapylon.
There is good historical reason to believe that there were
compelling political reasons to emphasize the impressive
architectural remains in Caerleon. Gerald not only referred to
Caerleon's Roman past; he also followed Geoffrey of Monmouth in
assigning 'Arthurian' connections to the site. With the
re-establishment of Welsh control in the form of the lords of
Caerleon, Geoffrey was not alone in seeing the benefit of Welsh
kingship in Caerleon. In 1136, Morgan and Iorwerth ap Owain,
grandsons of the last king of Gwent, ambushed and killed
Richard de Clare. They then struck along the Usk, seizing the
castles of Usk and Caerleon. It was not long before Morgan was
adapting his grandfather's title, asserting that once again
there was a Welsh king in Caerleon! It was not until 1217 that
the powerful and ambitious William Marshall finally forced this
Welsh dynasty from Caerleon. '

* John P. Ravilious

[MTaHT]

For those interested in Brit King Henry II and his era, the book "Time and
Chance" by Sharon Kay Penman, 2002, Putnam, is a highly recommended work of
fiction. As usual, Penman's fiction is historically accurate and well written,
with a generous amount of added spice.

The main thrusts of the book are Henry's problems with (and in) Wales, France,
Eleonore d'Aquitaine and also with Thomas a Becket. A bit of Henry's
extra-curricular daliances are included for good measure. An enjoyable read
with lots of painless history and a little genealogy, too.

(I'm about 2/3 of the way to finishing the book)

Best wishes,
Mike Talbot

[Glyn Jones]

I'm not sure why but I was under the impression that the Nest who had a son
by Henry II was the daughter of Rhys ap Tewdwr. This Nest later married
Gerald de Windsor in about 1100. Since Henry was born in 1133, this seems
less likely. Is there any more information?

Glyn

Glyn Jones FRPS
www.glynphoto.com
Remember Tryweryn
Join the Royal Photographic Society
Join Creative Monochrome

[The...@aol.com]

Monday, 16 December, 2002

Hello Glyn,

Right Nest(a), wrong Henry.

Nesta ferch Rhys was the alleged mistress of Henry I
(d. 1135).

Cheers,

John *

* John P. Ravilious

[Reedpcgen]

I don't have my notes for Hywell ap Iorworth ap Owain, last lord of Caerlion
(left a daughter Gwenllian, didn't he?), but thought that there is much in the
Welsh chronicles and history on this family if one is willing to look. Isn't
Iorwerth ap Owain the one who was supposed to have killed Richard Fitz Gilbert
de Clare and to have captured Caerleon?

Check DWB, Bartrum, Handbook of British Chronology, Bradney's History of
Monmouthshire, and even Dwnn's Visitation of Wales, for a start.

Hywell's arms were gu. three towers triple-towered ar., which was sometimes
centuries later adopted by persons surnamed Howell who had no direct male
descent.

Paul

[Glyn Jones]

Sorry John. Of course you are right. Oops!

Glyn

Glyn Jones FRPS
www.glynphoto.com
Remember Tryweryn
Join the Royal Photographic Society
Join Creative Monochrome
----- Original Message -----

[The...@aol.com]

Monday, 16 December, 2002

Hello Paul,

Actually, I hadn't been looking for information on this
family prior to the earlier post by Douglas. The reference
taken in my post of yesterday from Brut y Tywysogion places
Iowerth ap Owain of Caerleon as a contemporary of the
displaced Iorwerth 'Drwyndwn' ap Owain of Gwynedd, hence the
confusion.

As to the murder of Richard de Clare, I did mention in my
post yesterday,

' Sunday, 15 December, 2002

... I find a source which makes reference to the

Iorwerth of Caerleon as belonging to the
family of the kings of Gwent, in SE Wales [1].
This source also indicates it was this Iorwerth ap
Owain who, together with his brother Morgan,
ambushed and killed Richard de Clare near
Abergavenny in 1136. [Certainly gives a good

source for Nest's son's name...] '

I did not get into the capture of Richard's wife and
her being held hostage (until her subsequent rescue) -
another story, for another post.....

Good luck, and good hunting.

John *

* John P. Ravilious

[Reedpcgen]

John,

I haven't checked any of the sources I suggested (when I worked on this family
I was concerned with Hywell/Howell, not his father), but Doug could easily find
the information in the standard sources af the FHL or university library. It
would take less than five minutes.

I don't have those notes handy, but wasn't Iorwerth's father Owain the son of
Caradog ap Gruffydd, ruler of Gwent?

Paul

[Reedpcgen]

John, I took two minutes and found the following (less time than digging into
files to find notes):

Bradney, History of Monmouth, v. 3 (Hundred of Usk), 190, gives [Bartrum,
Rhydderch ap Iestyn 1 in brackets]:

1. Howel[Hywell] Dda
2. Owen [Owain]
3. Jestyn [Iestin]
4. Rhydderch, k. 1031
5. Gruffydd, defeated 1055 [d. 1056], m. Gwenlliam verch Bleddyn ap Cynfyn
6. Owen Wan [d. 1116]
7. Iorwerth ap Owen, lord of Caerleon, did homage to Henry II at Gloucester
1175 [living 1158-84], m. Angharad, daughter of Uchtryd [Uchdrud], Bishop of
Llandaff
8. Nest, living 1248, and other siblings, including:
Howell [Hywell] of Caerleon, founded Llantarnam Abbey in 1175, resigned his
sovereignty 1172 and accepted knighthood from Henry II [m. Gwerful fyrch Owain
Cyfeiliog].

Paul

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear John, etc. ~

Today I checked Peter C. Bartrum's work, Welsh Genealogies, A.D.
300-1400 (published 1980), for Nest, mistress of King Henry II and
wife of Sir Ralph Bluet. According to Bartrum's chart, Rhydderch ap
Iestyn 1, Nest's parents were Iowerth ap Owain Wan, (lord of Caerleon)
[occurs 1158-1184], and his wife, Angharad, daughter of Uchdrud,
Bishop of Llandaf. Additional information on Iowerth ap Owain can be
found in the Dictionary of Welsh Biography (1959), pg. 638 (sub Morgan
ap Hywel).

I don't know anything about Nest's maternal grandfather, Uchdrud,
Bishop of Llandaf. Perhaps someone else has particulars on this man.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

E-mail: royala...@msn.com

The...@aol.com wrote in message news:<338AC292.74B9...@aol.com>...

[Reedpcgen]

Correction, my eye skipped while typing from book to computer:

5. Gruffydd
6. Caradog. m. Gwenllian verch Bleddyn ap Cynfyn
7. Owen Wan ("the weak") [d. 1116]
8. Iorwerth ap Owain
9. Nest

Paul

[The...@aol.com]

Monday, 16 December, 2002

Hello Paul,

Thank you for your posts concerning the ancestry of
Iorwerth ap Owain, and thereby of Nest(a), the subject
mistress of Henry II of England.

The connection you show with Caradog ap Gruffydd
marrying Gwenllian, daughter of Bleddyn ap Cynfyn would
provide the requisite descent from Hywel Dda, king of
Seissylwg and Dyfed (d. 950) and thereby from Rhodri
Mawr.

The best Welsh history source I have to hand is
Davies (A History of Wales), aside from the online
Brut y Tywysogion. The next time I get to the Library
of Congress, I'll have to see if Bradney's History of
Monmouth is available there. I appreciate the
reference (and the lookup).

~ By the bye, at generation 8 (revised, 9) you
show Nest, daughter of Iorwerth ap Owain as 'living
1248'. Is this in fact the date in Bradney? While
not impossible, that would give her a very advanced
age indeed (esp. given her prior association with
Henry II, and her brother Hywel's mature activities
ca. 1172-75).

All the best,

[The...@aol.com]

Monday, 16 December, 2002

Dear Douglas,

Thanks for the lookup re: the ancestry of Nest(a).
She was certainly well connected enough to merit the
attentions of Henry II (how much to her chagrin we
may never know).

The name of Uchdryd, bishop of Llandaff is interesting.
It is evidently a Saxon name [Uchtred], or at least
originally derived therefrom. It is not the earliest
use of the name in a Welsh family - I see reference to
an Uchdryd ap Edwin earlier than this [again, a strong
indication of a Saxon influence].

There is some specific information concerning the
family of Bishop Uchdryd, although this does not
extend to earlier times. In the Catholic Encyclopedia
(New Advent), we find the following concerning the
author and cleric Geoffrey of Monmouth:

' Bishop of St. Asaph and chronicler; b. at Monmouth about
1100, d. at Llandaff, 1154. He was the son of Arthur, a
priest, and was educated by his uncle Uchtryd, afterwards
Bishop of Llandaff. It has been surmised that he became a
Benedictine monk, but this is uncertain. At Oxford he met
Walter the Archdeacon, who suggested to him the idea of his
great work, "Historia Regum Britanniae". About 1140 he
accompanied Uchtryd to Llandaff, where he became archdeacon
of St.Teilo's, and opened schools in which many clerics and
chieftains were educated. This "Historia" had appeared
before 1139, but Geoffrey continued to work at it, and in
1147 he completed it in its final form. ' [1]

I will have to hunt down my copy of Geoffrey of
Monmouth (although I doubt the notes therein provide
much more early detail than the above); however, it
is interesting to find such a close connection between
Henry II and the noted author.

Again, many thanks. Keep up the good work.

John *

NOTES
[1] from the Catholic Encyclopedia (New Advent),
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06428a.htm

* John P. Ravilious

[Reedpcgen]

< By the bye, at generation 8 (revised, 9) you show Nest, daughter of Iorwerth
ap Owain as 'living 1248'. Is this in fact the date in Bradney? >

Several of the siblings were stated to be alive in that year. I didn't check
th etext to see if it gave a reason for that date being in the chart.

Paul

[Sam Sloan]

At 04:55 PM 12/16/2002 -0800, Douglas Richardson wrote:
>Dear John, etc. ~
>
>Today I checked Peter C. Bartrum's work, Welsh Genealogies, A.D.
>300-1400 (published 1980), for Nest, mistress of King Henry II and
>wife of Sir Ralph Bluet. According to Bartrum's chart, Rhydderch ap
>Iestyn 1, Nest's parents were Iowerth ap Owain Wan, (lord of Caerleon)
>[occurs 1158-1184], and his wife, Angharad, daughter of Uchdrud,
>Bishop of Llandaf. Additional information on Iowerth ap Owain can be
>found in the Dictionary of Welsh Biography (1959), pg. 638 (sub Morgan
>ap Hywel).
>
>I don't know anything about Nest's maternal grandfather, Uchdrud,
>Bishop of Llandaf. Perhaps someone else has particulars on this man.
>
>Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
>E-mail: royala...@msn.com

How many find this tendency of history to be ironic?

Some girl crawls in a window and gets to spend a night in the bed of the kind.

For this alone, she is remembered by history and people are still talking
about her one thousand years later.

By contrast, her contemporaries are all forgotten.

The Holy Bible is the same way. Virtually every woman remembered by the
Bible was a wanton woman who committed some immoral act. Rahab the Harlot
was a direct ancestor of Jesus Christ. Tamar who sold herself as a
prostitute founded the Jewish Religion. The daughters of Lot got their
father drunk and slept with him. Was Dinah really abducted or did she
voluntariuly sleep with a man from the opposing tribe? Eve wanted sex and
so got Adam to eat the apple. In every case in the Bible, the men were
virtuous, the women were almost whores. The only woman in the Bible not
mentioned in this way is the Virgin Mary and even in her case, for the last
two thousand years, everybody has wondered if she was really a virgin or
just a street girl.

Sam Sloan
http://www.samsloan.com/lott.htm

[Chris Pitt Lewis]

In article <20021217003237...@mb-cu.aol.com>, Reedpcgen
<reed...@aol.com> writes

The date derives from the IPM of Iorwerth's grandson Morgan ap Hywel,
which is dated 28 feb 1249 [IPM Hen. III, File 8, no 7]. The text, as
quoted by Bradney, translates as follows:
[The jurors say] "that Morgan of Caerleon held of the Lord King two
commotes of land in chief by the service of going with the Lord King in
his army for the protection of the Lord King with his men, and the names
of the commotes are Edlogan and Llevenydd ["Elegam et Slebennhet"]. They
are worth 40L a year by common estimation. And they say that Maredudd ap
Gruffydd is the nearest heir of the said Morgan if he can prove that he
is legitimate. And the said jurors understand that he is not legitimate.
As to the age of the said Maredudd, they say that it is 14 years. And if
the said Maredudd cannot be the heir of the said Morgan, they say that
the four daughters of Iorwerth ap Owain, of whom two are alive, namely
Nest and Amabel, and two are dead, namely Gwladys and Angharad, are the
next heirs. The son and heir of the dead Gwladys is Rhys son of
Gruffydd. The son and heir of the dead Angharad is Gruffydd son of
Dyfnwal. And the reason is that the said women were the sisters of Owain
ap Iorwerth the father of the said Morgan."

"Owain ap Iorwerth" is presumably a mistake for Hywel ap Iorwerth.

Maredudd ap Gruffydd is said by Bradney to be the great grandson of
Morgan ap Hywel, being grandson of Morgan's only daughter Gwerfil, wife
of Maredudd Gethin son of the Lord Rhys of Deheubarth. This makes it
truly remarkable that two of Morgan's aunts should still have been
alive. The dates, though possible, are very tight, and made more so by
the fact that Caradog ap Gruffydd, the great grandfather of Nest and
Amabel, had died as far back as 1069. Perhaps the pedigree given by
Bradney, which in part is as follows, needs to be looked at again. How
secure are the sources for Owain Wan's parentage?

Caradoc ap Gruffydd Prince of Gwent d 1069
|
----------------------------------------------
| |
Owain Wan, Prince of Gwent Rhydderch ap Caradoc Lord of
| Ewyas and Gwent Iscoed in 1066
|
----------------------------------
| |
Morgan ap Owen Iorwerth ap Owen
fl 1135, d 1157 fl 1171-75
m. Dau of Uchtryd, Bp of Llandaff 1140-?48
|
-------------------------------------------------------------
| | |
Hywel ap Iorwerth Nest Amabel
founded Llantarnam Abbey 1175 mistress of Henry II living 1249
| living 1249
| |
Morgan ap Hywel fl 1235 d 1249 Morgan, adult by 1201 when made
| Provost of Beverley
|
Gwerfil m. Maredudd ap Rhys d 1201
|
Gruffydd ap Maredudd d before 1249
|
Maredudd ap Gruffydd b ca 1234 d 1278
--
Chris Pitt Lewis

[Karen Repko]

royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote in message news:<5cf47a19.02121...@posting.google.com>...

> Dear John, etc. ~
>
> Today I checked Peter C. Bartrum's work, Welsh Genealogies, A.D.
> 300-1400 (published 1980), for Nest, mistress of King Henry II and
> wife of Sir Ralph Bluet. According to Bartrum's chart, Rhydderch ap
> Iestyn 1, Nest's parents were Iowerth ap Owain Wan, (lord of Caerleon)
> [occurs 1158-1184], and his wife, Angharad, daughter of Uchdrud,
> Bishop of Llandaf. Additional information on Iowerth ap Owain can be
> found in the Dictionary of Welsh Biography (1959), pg. 638 (sub Morgan
> ap Hywel).
>
> I don't know anything about Nest's maternal grandfather, Uchdrud,
> Bishop of Llandaf. Perhaps someone else has particulars on this man.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
> E-mail: royala...@msn.com
>

> <snip of good post by The...@aol.com>
>
Dear Doug,

The Ralph Bluet who married Nest, would he also happen to be the
same Ralph Bluet who held Lackham, Lacock, Wilts. from Roger Bigod.

Is there any connection between the Lackham Bluets and the Bluet
family who held Silchester [Silcestre] in Hamshire, from William d'Eu.

Any help on this connection would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Karen Repko

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Karen ~

Yes, you have the right Bluet family. They are ancestral to your
Baynard line. You descend from Nest, wife of Sir Ralph Bluet, former
mistress of William Longespee.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

E-mail: royala...@msn.com

kar...@aol.com (Karen Repko) wrote in message news:<2201cae2.03011...@posting.google.com>...

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Karen ~

This is a corrected reply to your post.

Yes, you have the right Bluet family. They are ancestral to your

Baynard line. They held the manors of Lacock, Wiltshire and
Silchester, Hampshire. As such, you descend from Nest, wife of Sir
Ralph Bluet, former mistress of King Henry II of England.

Since first posting on Nest Bluet, I've learned that the Bluet family
were neighbors at Lacock, Wiltshire to William Longespee, Earl of
Salisbury, bastard son of King Henry II. Small world, eh? So, Nest
Bluet's son by King Henry II, Morgan Fitz Roy, grew up in the shadow
of his older half-sibling, William Longespee.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

E-mail: royala...@msn.com

kar...@aol.com (Karen Repko) wrote in message news:<2201cae2.03011...@posting.google.com>...

[Karen Repko]

royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote in message news:<5cf47a19.03011...@posting.google.com>...

Dear Doug,

Thank you for confirming this ancestral connection between the
Bluets and the Baynard families of Lackham Manor. If I remember
correctly, you are also descended from this Baynard line, so this is
very much your ancestry as well.

Would it be possible for you to point me to some good sources for
this Bluet Nest(a) marriage. I have a very nice history of Lackham
Manor and the town of Lacock written by Tony Pratt, one of the
instructors at the College and Manor museum, but it lacks sources for
this marriage, and infact begins the history of Lackham with Ralph
Bluet, but mentions no wife.

Any help will be greatly appreciated~ Thanks again~

Cheers,
Karen Repko

[ADRIANC...@aol.com]

Doug,

Where do you consider William Longespees home to be? I would have thought it
would be Salisbury Castle (that is when his busy schedule with kings Richard
and John allowed him to go home), but Lacock is not really in the
neighbourhood of Salisbury, and is seperated by the plain.

regards,
Adrian

Douglas Richardson wrote

[Douglas Richardson]

kar...@aol.com (Karen Repko) wrote in message news:<2201cae2.03011...@posting.google.com>...

> royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson) wrote in message news:<5cf47a19.03011...@posting.google.com>...

>
> Dear Doug,
>
> Thank you for confirming this ancestral connection between the
> Bluets and the Baynard families of Lackham Manor. If I remember
> correctly, you are also descended from this Baynard line, so this is
> very much your ancestry as well.
>
> Would it be possible for you to point me to some good sources for
> this Bluet Nest(a) marriage. I have a very nice history of Lackham
> Manor and the town of Lacock written by Tony Pratt, one of the
> instructors at the College and Manor museum, but it lacks sources for
> this marriage, and infact begins the history of Lackham with Ralph
> Bluet, but mentions no wife.
>
> Any help will be greatly appreciated~ Thanks again~
>
> Cheers,
> Karen Repko

Dear Karen ~

If you follow the thread on King Henry II's mistress, Nest Bluet,
you'll find all the sources found so far which pertain to the family
and ancestry of Nest. If these sources are correct, it appears that
Nest was near cousin to Geoffrey of Monmouth.

Coincidentally, my children possess a double descent from Nest Bluet,
one through me and one through their mother.

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Adrian ~

I've seen a charter in which William Longespee refers to Ralph Bluet
as his neighbor. This can mean either that they lived side by side,
or that they owned adjacent lands. Both could be true in this
instance. The top barons moved from location to location throughout
the year, as they made the rounds of their land holdings and held
court for their tenants.

I can't say exactly where William Longespee, Sr., resided, but his
son, William, Jr.'s chief residence appears to have been at Amesbury,
co. Wiltshire. Suffice to say, the Longespee and Bluet families knew
each other well. And, in the case of King Henry II, he knew them even
better (at least the women).

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

E-mail: royala...@msn.com

ADRIANC...@aol.com wrote in message news:<85.253734b...@aol.com>...

[ADRIANC...@aol.com]

Doug,

Thank you for your reply. I see that the Bluet family appear frequently in
the Bradenstoke cartulary, especially a Sir Robert, living mid 13th century.

Adrian