Aveline de Forz
M.Dewk...@flash.a2000.nl
Yesterday i read the book "Eleanor of Provence" (really a superb
book), written by Margareth Howell.
Howell states that Eleanor was the fourth child and that her
mother first two children were probably twin boys. Who can give me
details on these sons who died very young?
In this book one can read furthet that Aveline de Forz, married
with Eleanor's son Edmund, died in 1274 after given birth to a
twin. Alison Weir says that there was no issue of her marriage to
Edmund. What is true? And can someone give me some info on the
Forz-family?
Greetings,
Ryan Dewkinandan
John Carmi Parsons
were both preparing our books on the two Queens Eleanor in England in the
later thirteenth century. The information that Raymond Berengar IV of
Provence and his wife had, very early in their marriage two sons who were
probably twins, comes from a charter in which the couple made a donation
to a religious house for the souls of their sons. I can't remember the
exact date of the charter but it was, as I said, very early in their
marriage and this would indicate that the twins were probably born as the
result of the countess' first pregnancy. Thus the third child of this
marriage was Margaret (1221?-1295) who married Louis IX of France in 1234,
and the fourth was Eleanor (1223?-1291), who married Henry III of England
in 1236. I believe Gerard Sivery's _Marguerite de Provence: Une reine du
temps des cathedrales_ refers to the "twin" charter more explicitly than
does Miss Howell. The charter does not provide the names of the two boys.
Everything we know about the children born to Edmund of Lancaster and
Aveline de Forz comes from the Anglo-Norman chronicles written for
Edmund's niece Mary (1279-1332), daughter of King Edward I, by the
Dominican friar Nicholas Trevet. This chronicle is packed with a good
deal of intimate Plantagenet family lore that Mary probably told Trevet,
and given that his source was a ranking member of the family, his information
is not to be rejected out of hand. (Surprisingly though, the chronicle has
never been fully edited.)
According to Trevet, Aveline was the mother of two children who did not
survive. We know that her marriage to Edmund was consummated in Feb 1273, the
month in which Aveline turned 14, and that she died in November 1274. There is
not really enough time there to allow for pregnancies, which argues that the
children were twins. Furthermore, it is probable that the twins did not
survive birth. According to the laws and customs of England, if a man married
an heiress and she bore him a child that lived long enough for its cries to be
heard within the birth chamber, the husband and father was entitled to
continue to hold his wife's inheritance for the rest of his life, whether the
child survived or not. (This was known as "the courtesy of England.") We know
that Edmund of Lancaster did not hold Aveline's lands after her death; thus
any children she bore him could not have survived birth. In the thirteenth
century it was rare for twins to survive at all (Blanche of Castile's twin
sons barely survived birth), and a dangerous twin delivery could easily
explain Aveline's early death when she was not yet 16.
Aveline was the heiress to both her parents--to her father for the earldom
of Albemarle and the barony of Cockermouth, and to her mother (or rather
grandmother) for the earldom of Devon and the lordship of the Isle of
Wight. Her ancestry can thus be traced in CP under those earldoms and in
Sanders' _English Baronies_ under "Cockermouth."
John Parsons
Gerard Laurans
In one of the "History of Provence" from the XVII° century that can be
read at the "Bibliotheque Municipale de Toulouse.France" (either from
Gauffredi or from Bouche, i cannot recall which one from my notes) I
read the following information (or may be conjecture ?) :
"Raimond Beranger et Beatrice de Savoie eurent un fils Raymond mort
fort jeune pendant la vie de son pere...".
Hope it helps, amicalement
Gerard Laurans
Message by jpar...@chass.utoronto.ca (John Carmi Parsons) on: 03/12/98 08:02:41
>Margaret Howell and I have corresponded regularly....
>>John Parsons
>On 3 Dec 1998 M.Dewk...@flash.a2000.nl wrote:
>> Yesterday i read the book "Eleanor of Provence" (really a superb
>> book), written by Margareth Howell.
>>....
>> Ryan Dewkinandan
Gerard Laurans
In one of the "History of Provence" from the XVII° century that can be
read at the "Bibliotheque Municipale de Toulouse.France" (either from
Gauffredi or from Bouche, i cannot recall which one from my notes) I
read the following information (or may be conjecture ?) :
"Raimond Beranger et Beatrice de Savoie eurent un fils Raymond mort
fort jeune pendant la vie de son pere...".
Hope it helps, amicalement
Gerard Laurans
Message by jpar...@chass.utoronto.ca (John Carmi Parsons) on: 03/12/98 08:02:41
>Margaret Howell and I have corresponded regularly....
>
>John Parsons
>On 3 Dec 1998 M.Dewk...@flash.a2000.nl wrote:
>
>> Hello,
ray montgomery
Sincerely
RAY
On 29 Dec 1998 12:13:51 GMT Gerard Laurans <gerard....@wanadoo.fr>
writes:
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Gordon Fisher
>Could a kind body please translate this????
>Sincerely
>RAY
>On 29 Dec 1998 12:13:51 GMT Gerard Laurans <gerard....@wanadoo.fr>
>writes:
>>Hello,
>>
>>In one of the "History of Provence" from the XVII° century that can be
>>read at the "Bibliotheque Municipale de Toulouse.France" (either from
>>Gauffredi or from Bouche, i cannot recall which one from my notes) I
>>read the following information (or may be conjecture ?) :
>>"Raimond Beranger et Beatrice de Savoie eurent un fils Raymond mort
>>fort jeune pendant la vie de son pere...".
>>
>>Hope it helps, amicalement
>>Gerard Laurans
>>
[deletion]
Raimond Beranger and Beatrice de Savoie [Savoy] had a son Raymond who died
very young during the lifetime of his father.
More literally:
Raimond Beranger and Beatrice de Savoie had a son Raymond dead very young
during the life of his father.
Gordon Fisher gfi...@shentel.net
Francisco Antonio Doria
>>fort jeune pendant la vie de son pere...".
Raimond Beranger and Breatrice of Savoy had a child named Raymond who
died young during his father's lifetime.
Chico
Ali...@aol.com
died very young during the lifetime of his father..."
I am not a French expert, but I spent two years in Tunisia speaking French, so
I get by most of the time.
Alix Von Bosen
ray montgomery
Young RAymond
On 29 Dec 1998 21:17:32 -0800 gfi...@shentel.net (Gordon Fisher) writes:
>At 08:51 PM 12/29/98 -0800, ray montgomery wrote:
>>Could a kind body please translate this????
>>Sincerely
>>RAY
>>On 29 Dec 1998 12:13:51 GMT Gerard Laurans
><gerard....@wanadoo.fr>
>>writes:
>>>Hello,
>>>
>>>In one of the "History of Provence" from the XVII° century that can
>be
>>>read at the "Bibliotheque Municipale de Toulouse.France" (either
>from
>>>Gauffredi or from Bouche, i cannot recall which one from my notes)
>I
>>>read the following information (or may be conjecture ?) :
>>>fort jeune pendant la vie de son pere...".
>>>
John Carmi Parsons
in the lifetime of his father...." That's quite strict; more gracefully
one might just as well say "a son Raymond who died very young in his
father's lifetime...."
John Parsons
On 29 Dec 1998, ray montgomery wrote:
> Could a kind body please translate this????
> "Raimond Beranger et Beatrice de Savoie eurent un fils Raymond mort
James P. Robinson III
something like:
Raimond Beranger and Beatrice de Savoie had a son Raymond who died quite
young, during the life of his father.
As the clock struck 08:51 PM 12/29/1998 -0800, ray montgomery took pen in
hand and wrote:
>Could a kind body please translate this????
>Sincerely
>RAY
>On 29 Dec 1998 12:13:51 GMT Gerard Laurans <gerard....@wanadoo.fr>
>writes:
>>Hello,
>>
>>In one of the "History of Provence" from the XVII° century that can be
>>read at the "Bibliotheque Municipale de Toulouse.France" (either from
>>Gauffredi or from Bouche, i cannot recall which one from my notes) I
>>read the following information (or may be conjecture ?) :
>>"Raimond Beranger et Beatrice de Savoie eurent un fils Raymond mort
>>fort jeune pendant la vie de son pere...".
>>
>>Hope it helps, amicalement
>>Gerard Laurans
>>
>>Message by jpar...@chass.utoronto.ca (John Carmi Parsons) on:
>>03/12/98 08:02:41
>>>Margaret Howell and I have corresponded regularly....
>>>
>>>John Parsons
>>>On 3 Dec 1998 M.Dewk...@flash.a2000.nl wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>> Yesterday i read the book "Eleanor of Provence" (really a superb
>>>> book), written by Margareth Howell.
>>>>....
>>>> Ryan Dewkinandan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
--
********************************************************
James P. Robinson III
jpro...@ix.netcom.com
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