Possible royal line for Reverend Henry Whitfield, via Maude Whetley

[pepeem...@gmail.com]

Hi all, I wondered if anyone might help shed a bit of light on a possible line of royal descent for Reverend Henry Whitfield.

According to J.B. Taylor's edition of the 1575 Visitations of Northumberland, there's a certificate confirming that the Sussex Whitfields were descendants of the Whitfield family up north, of Whitfield Hall.

https://books.google.com/books?id=4vcGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA85&lpg=PA85&dq=robert+whitfield+accused+of+being+a+scot&source=bl&ots=O7PNzqwe0S&sig=7XWDYd6hUWwGbyjCeTF944VtrYA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiqmMqFk6jRAhVP9mMKHTojDkIQ6AEIHTAB#v=onepage&q=robert%20whitfield%20accused%20of%20being%20a%20scot&f=false

(reference is on page 86, though it's just a quote from the Visitations, if anyone knows where I can read that Visitation itself I'd appreciate it)

Page 85 in the above work shows a pedigree for Robert Whitfield of Sussex going back to William Whitfield and Maude Whetley. Unfortunately no birth or death dates are given, only the note from the Herald's office who did the Visitation at the time saying they had interviewed Whitfields with living memory of Robert confirming his descent.

Page 113 of "The ancestry of Reverend Henry Whitfield (1590-1657) and his wife Dorothy Sheafe (159?-1669) of Guilford, Connecticut" states that Maud Whetley/Whitley's mother was Joan Vieuxpont, granddaughter of Robert Vieuxpont/Vipont, as evidenced by his will.

https://familysearch.org/eng/library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset.asp?display=titledetails&titleno=484998&disp=The+ancestry+of+Reverend+Henry+Whitfield

The Vieuxponts were a prominent family in the region, and I had seen one line supposedly tracing Robert Vieuxpont to an Ivo Vieuxpont, then his parents William Vipont and Maud Morville, a granddaughter of Isabel Capet, daughter of Hugh Capet (1057-1102)

A few related links

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_of_Vermandois,_Countess_of_Leicester#Family

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_de_Morville

The tree in question:

https://www.wikitree.com/genealogy/Whitley-Family-Tree-55


Does anyone know if this can be proven or disproven? A while ago I asked if we're quite sure the Herald's pedigree was right about the Sussex Whitfields descending from the same Northumberland family, and we are reasonably sure of that. I wondered if this lineage will always remain unproven due to the lack of birth records in those few Whitfield generations and only having the Herald's word and the word of his interviewees (Gilbert Dethick was the interviewer, according to the earlier link), or whether it's outright wrong rather than simply unprovable.

Thanks for reading.

[pepeem...@gmail.com]

Oh no, I'm sorry, I wasn't aware he had passed. That's sad news, I lived in Madison briefly last year actually, the university library was where I initially read his book.

[Robert O'Connor]

I note that there appears to be an Ahnentafel chart which includes Robert Whitfield d 1541 of Wadhurst at page 237 of Volume 56-57 of 'The American Genealogist'.

I wonder if anyone has access to this and could either post what that Ahnentafel shows for the ancestry of Robert Whitfield, or take a 'screen shot' of it and send it to me offline.

Robert

[joe...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, June 27, 2017 at 5:35:08 AM UTC-4, Robert O'Connor wrote:
> I note that there appears to be an Ahnentafel chart which includes Robert Whitfield d 1541 of Wadhurst at page 237 of Volume 56-57 of 'The American Genealogist'.
>
> I wonder if anyone has access to this and could either post what that Ahnentafel shows for the ancestry of Robert Whitfield, or take a 'screen shot' of it and send it to me offline.
>

This is an article by John Brooks Threfall from 1980. It should be considered completely superseded by John Brooks Threfall's book which was published in 1989 and available online (link provided earlier in this thread)
Joe Cook

[Robert O'Connor]

Thanks Joe

[Patricia A. Junkin]

Hello Again,
Joan Vipont, the daughter of Nicholas Vipont, d. 1362 and Elena Daubenay married William de Whitlaw.
In 21H6 [1443], Thomas Whytlaw granted Alderston [Alston], Elrington and Gerrardsgyl to William Stapilton and his wife Margaret. p. 439
Margaret Stapylton was the daughter of Nicholas Vipont by Mary.
Heiress of Alston Moor. Margaret, daughter and heir of the last owner, succeeded as “Domina” to Alston Moor.CP p. 299
Pat

> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

[duanej...@gmail.com]

Thanks for the info. on the Whitfields. I have watercolors of Rowfant House, Pele Tower at Whitfield Hall, co: Northumberland and Rayner's holme/Raynerholme/Reynerholme/Randalholme, near Alston Moor, co: Cumberland, England. If I recall correctly a family with surname "Raines" owns Randalholme. Surely, this family must be aware of the history of their farm; and, several Whitfield descendants came into possession of this bastle through various heiresses from the Viponts. To think there is no Whitfield descent, or at least extremely close connection with the Viponts seems to me to be a little sketchy. I will even call Randalholme sort-of-a fort home, like what I call Rev. Henry Whitfield's stone fort-home in Connecticut. In general summary, Nicholas de Veteripont held the manor in 1315. By 1371 it was named Reyner's holme, a Norman name. Robert de Veteripont (I don't know his connection to Nicholas) died in 1371. His heirs were his granddaughters, Elizabeth and Joan. Elizabeth m. Thomas Blencowe and Joan m. William de Whitlaw. Randalholme passed through Joan to William de Whitlaw. Whitlaw received Alston, Elrington and Garrigill, which in 1422 was held by Thomas Whitlaw. I don't know his connection to William de Whitlaw, who m. Joan, a granddaughter of Robert de Veteripont. It is said William de Whitlaw was of Whitlaw/Whitley Castle. Maybe this Whitley Castle was built by the Romans and known as Epiacum? I think Whitley Castle is on private property; therefore, most of it has never been excavated. From William de Whitlaw descended John Whitlaw/Whitley. He left three daughters. One m. Warcoppe, one m. Musgrave; and, the third m. William Whitfield. This bastle was in possession of the Whitfields until Robert Whitfield sold it in 1659. I am not exactly sure how Miles Whitfield fits into the Whitfield descent. His son, Robert Whitfield, Sr. moved south to Wadhurst; and, his son, Robert moved to Rowfant House. I changed John Brooks Threlfall's chart years ago to reflect my descent from Abigail Whitfield who m. Rev. James Fitch. He wrote John Whitley had a dau. Maud who m. William Whitfield. This Maud inherited Randalholme, which thus became the property of the Whitfields. William and Maud had Richard, who had Myles Whitfield who m. another Maud. This is all a little much for me to sort out; however, if it is true that Rev. Henry Whitfield descended from a Royal line, it may have come down from William de Veteripont who m. Maud de Morville, dau. of Hugh, one of the assassins of Thomas a Becket. Much is discussed of the Whitfields, de Veteripontes, Whitley Castle, Randalholme, along with Vipont and Whitfield pedigree charts, mostly ps. 24 - 113; and,

https://books.google.com/books?id=D1IGAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA104&lpg=PA104&dq=randalholme+whitfield&source=bl&ots=u93V2jzWuj&sig=8VW2-fi-pMZ0oooTVYL5GN7N7s8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjE7M3s_ePUAhXox4MKHVnZAXYQ6AEILDAB#v=onepage&q=randalholme%20whitfield&f=false

Sussex Archaeological Collections . . ., by Mark Antony Lower, ps. 83 - 90:

https://books.google.com/books?id=4vcGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA85&lpg=PA85&dq=randalholme+whitfield&source=bl&ots=O7QSBvwfWM&sig=h7-4lHpyMVL-67R5ttouJVKdB-o&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjE7M3s_ePUAhXox4MKHVnZAXYQ6AEIOTAD#v=onepage&q=randalholme%20whitfield&f=false

A number of pages in a book about Alston Moor covers some info. on the Whitfields and Viponds/de Veteriponts.

https://archive.org/stream/alstonmooritspas00wall/alstonmooritspas00wall_djvu.txt

Old Cumbria Gazetteer has a couple of interesting photos of Randalholme:

http://www.geog.port.ac.uk/webmap/thelakes/html/lgaz/lk09375.htm

In summary, I think there is a pretty good possibility that Rev. Henry Whitfield did descend from the de Veteriponts; and, this Norman family descended from Morville. I doubt if anyone has access to Whitfield Hall, where much of this speculation may be proved one way or another; then, again, not at all.
Duane

[Patricia A. Junkin]

These families are so intricately intertwined it is difficult to sort them out. First, the family we are dealing with is that of Ivo de Veteripontes descendants. Ivo was a brother to the more thoroughly known Robert Vipont whose descendants number the Cliffords. Ivo was brother of Robert, Christian, Joanna, Hugh and Matilda children of William Vipont by Maud de Morville.Ivo married Isabel de Lancaster and Sybil de Thoresby. I believe he had eight children, among them, Robert, Lawrence and Nicholas of Alston Moor. Being a Border family, the Viponts held land in both England and Scotland. Your Whitlaw connection comes from the descendants of Nicholas.
“In 1232 the patronage of the church of Kirkhaugh was in the hands of Nicholas son of Ivo de Veteripont. His son Robert wass of Kirkhaugh in 1279. Nicholas had leased Alston for 20 years to Randulf (Ralf) de Levington, who died in 1253 and in connection with this arose litigation with the crown, which was settled in 1293 by the restoration of the manor to Nicholas f. Robert f. Nicholas de Veripont. HIs son Robert died in 1371, owner of the manors of Alston, Elrington and the advowson of Kirkhaugh His IPM mentions 40 cottages of shielings on Alston Moor, and “le Houses” in Garrigill, held by John de Williamston (a place further down the Valley) who with Richard de Laton held conjointly one messuage and 100 acres in Raynerhiolm by fealty, while Walter de Tyndale held onemessuare and three carucates in Kirkhaugh. The manors of Alston, Elrington and Garrigill came through heiresses to William and Mary de Stapilton; and after more litigations were confirmed to them in 1424. the Chancery proceedings regarding the dower of Mary Stapilton, dating 1436-1440, mention “the ferme of Kirkhaugh. Her daughter Margaret was the heiress of Alston Moor, whose daughters Joan and Mariotta married Richard and Thomas Musgrave respectively.
Pat

[sangreel]

Hello one and all:

I Have William Antrobus being married to Felix da of [Thomas] Constantyne OF Whitchurch. [Arms: Or, six Fleurs-de-Lis, Sable.] and his wife Isabella de Girros da of Robert de Girros

One Source is: The Visitations of Hertfordshire: Made by Robert Cooke, Esq.,Clarencieux, in ...
By Robert Cooke 1572
Sir. Richard St. George 1634
With Hertfordshire Pedigrees, Harleian MSS 6147 and 1546 , Appendix II

https://books.google.com/books?id=DSoEAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA124&dq=%22Thomas+Antrobus%22&hl=en&ei=kLDgTOqnNNOQnwe2ksToDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Thomas%20Antrobus%22&f=false

[sangreel]

Hello again,

I hit post before I could provide a fly in the ointment.

Transactions of the Shropshire Archaeological and Natural History Society.
Page 297 - 304

MANOR OF SANDFORD AND WOOLSTON, page 298:
We have no further records of the Manor for ioo years after Domesday but the earliest which we have show that by the end of the 12th century the family of Constantine were Lords of the Manor holding it under the Fitz Alans No doubt it shared the fortune of Felton in passing after the fall of Earl Robert de Montgomery to Alan fitz Flaald and was held by Alan's son William when it was combined about 1 140 into one parish with William fitz Alan's other Manor of Felton l but it was held under the Fitz Alans not by the Stranges but by the Constantines The Constantino family seem to derive their name from the Cotentin a part of Normandy of which the capital is Coutances 2 and to be descended from Ralph who when Domesday book was compiled held Oldbury and Fulwardine near Bridgnorth and Petton near Baschurch Hugh de Constantine who was probably Ralph's son gave half a hide of land in Petton to Shrewsbury Abbey before 1121 and though the name of Constantine is not afterwards associated with Petton the family which took the name of Petton from that Manor are quite likely to have been descendants of Hugh de Constantine Helyas de Costetin had succeeded Hugh in Oldbury and Fulwardine by 1165 and also held Eaton which still takes the name of Eaton Constantine from this family He held all three manors under the Fitz Alans Richard de Constantine succeeded him and died between 1190 and 1196 leaving a widow Christiana who was alive in 1203 and five sons Thomas Helias Ralph William and Richard 3 [ 1 For its Parochial history see articles on Felton Church and on the Township of Felton J Owen and Blakeway ii 26 3 Eyton i 133 vii 276 viii 2 285 287 ]

Page: 299
Thomas de Constantine son of Richard about 1190 to 1240 is the first of the family whom we know to have been Lord of the Manor of Sandford and Woolston He also succeeded to his fathcr s Manors of Eaton Oldbury and Fulwardine He married before 1207 Isabella sister of Robert de Girros Properties at Burwarton and Broughton were settled on her on her marriage and on her brother's death in 1251 she obtained property in Fitz as one of his co heiresses 1 In 1216 Thomas de Constantine in common with most of the other Shropshire nobles rebelled against King John and the King granted his estates to John fitz Philip of Kinver but they were restored in 1217 Thomas de Constantine was one of the Verderers of the Shropshire Forests in 1220 and 1224 and is always described as a Knight and as a considerable person in the county In 1231 he was fined 20s because his hounds had coursed without license 2 This Thomas son of Richard dc Constantino gave a half virgate at Sandford to Roger fitz Dryn and the latter by the advice of Sir Robert the Chaplain his brother gave it to Haghmond Abbey with 4J acres of land in addition in remission of his sins and those of his parents Thomas de Costentin confirmed this gift by a deed attested by Ralph de Costentin Robert de Costentin and others 3 Roger litz Dryn or Driw s daughter Angaret about 1255 60 released to the Abbey all her rights in this half virgate The same Thomas de Costentin by deed granted to the Abbey leave to raise the stank ot their mill of Osberniston 8 feet higher than Tempres Bridge so that the backed up water should overflow Costentin's land of Osulveston and by a second he with the consent of his son and heir Thomas confirmed this grant and allowed the Abbey to dig turves on his land in Osuluston The mill of Osberniston ie Osbaston had been given by Guy le Strange to the Abbey about 1 179 It was afterwards called Moreton Mill and must have been on the Morda between Osbaston and Moreton near Moreton Bridge above which the Morda forms the boundary of Woolston townshipThe
[ 1 Eyton iii 32 78 x 1 56 2 Eyton viii 329 vii 2 17 x 326 Eyton x 378 blakeway MSS in Bodleian MANOR OF SANDFORD AND WOOLSTON 299 ]

Page: 300
The same Thomas de Costentin also about 1225 to 1235 gave to the augmentation of the alms at the gate of Haghmond Abbey the rent of a pound of cummin which Thomas de Caldecot used to pay for half a virgate of land in Sonforde Caldecot was a part of Knockin Thomas son of Thomas de Constantine about 1240 to 1268 succeeded to all his father's properties and between 1253 and 1256 he succeeded his mother in the properties at Fitz and elsewhere which she had from her brother Robert de Girros 1 In 1256 he was one of the four Coroners for Shropshire and like his father he is always described as a Knight Ralph brother of the first Thomas de Constantine neld land in Sandford under his brother to which Ralph's on William succeeded for the second Thomas and Sir John fit Philip of Aston and Felton witnessed a deed by which William son of Ralph de Costentin granted to Hugh son of Edrich for his homage and services 12 acres in the vill of Sondford which my father Ralph gave him in free marriage with my sister Lucy six of them lying super terram de bruches four upon Hungerhull two upon Hetfeld After this William son of Ralph de Costentin granted to the Canons of Haghmond 20 acres of land with a messuage croft and other appurtenances in the town of Sonforde which messuage was situated between the messuage of Edwin and that of Roger Colebrand also the rent and services of 12 acres in the said town holden by Hugh son of Edrich of Knockin And Thomas de Costentin granted to the same Canons common of pasture in the fields mores and heaths of Sonforde for all their beasts of Sonforde also a rent of 2S which he used to receive from William son of Ralph in Sonforde also to be free from suit to his Court and from all profits escheats and issues arising from that land This was witnessed by Sirs John le Strange and John fitz Philip 2 The 2s was no doubt the chief rent from that land which we have seen that William son of Ralph de Costentin had just given to the Abbey and which he evidently held under Thomas de Costentin All these deeds witnessed by Sir John fitz Philip may be dated about 1255 1265 Hungerhill

[1 Eyton viii 3 x 157 2 Hlakeway MSS 3 Kyton xi i]

Page: 301
hill still retains the name it had in the 13th century A 41 47 48 49 1152 and parts of 1151 and mi Ordnance being so named in the tithe award It lies on the Knockin side of the township far away from the Hungerhill in Felton township and is much higher than any of the land round it It probably gets its name from the hungry nature of the soil A deed which does not seem to be connected with the Abbey property is one by which Thomas de Costentin son of Thomas de Costentin grants to Edenewin son of William of Ruton for his homage and services and 12 marks half a virgate in Sondford formerly holden by Adam Herth and lying between the land of Hugh Seine and that formerly Ralph de Costentin's But the said Edenewin and his heirs and assigns shall at their death bequeath to me and my heirs the reasonable testament of a free man This is probably equivalent to the reservation of a heriot 1 The Herts were landowners at Tedsmere This deed2 is witnessed by Sir John fitz Philip Knight and must be of much the same date as those last mentioned 1255 1265 Thomas de Constantine's daughter and sole heiress Isabella married before 12683 Sir Adam fitz Philip de Montgomery Knight and the Manor of Sandford and Woolston must have been transferred to her and her husband upon their marriage for although Thomas de Constantine was still living in 1277 Adam was returned in 1272 asowi ig to Fitz Alan the service of half a knight's fee for Sonforde and Oselstone which service was allotted to Isabel de Mortimer widow of John fitz Alan III as part of her dower Therefore Adam de Montgomery and Isabella his wife were Lords of the Manor of Sandford from about 1268 to 1290 Isabella was Adam's second wife and had by him a son Robert who was born in 1272 and died early without issue Adam had been a supporter of Prince Edward during Montford's rebellion 1265 7 and held Montgomery Castle for the Prince Thomas de Constantine died before 1284 and his daughter and her husband then inherited Burwarton which was held under the Mortimers and Eaton Constantine Oldbury and

[1 Pee Stephens BJachstone ii 199 Blakeway MS 3 Eyton viii 3 xi 279 4 Eyton x 148 301]

Page: 302
half of Fitz which were held under Fitz Alan and had been settled on them subject to the life interest of her father In 1285 Adam obtained a Charter of Free Warren in all these manors including Sandford Adam died in i2go leaving a son Thomas by a previous wife heir to his own property and Robert his son by Isabella heir to her property Robert de Montgomery 1290 to about 1300 became Lord of the Manors although his mother was still alive She had the third part of them as dower and as he was a minor 18 years old the Earl of Arundel as his feudal lord took possession of Sandford and the other estates held under him Robert appears to have died before 1304 without issue and Sir Walter de Hopton of Hopton Castle about 1300 to 1305 succeeded him as Lord of the Manors of Sandford and of Burwarton no doubt on the ground of being heir to Isabella de Constantine He was grandson of Joan sister of Robert de Girros and of Isabella wife of Thomas de Constantine I and was therefore second cousin to Isabella daughter of Thomas de Constantine II and co heir with the Constantines to de Girros estates at Fitz and elsewhere By the settlement on the marriage of Adam de Montgomery with Isabella Eaton Oldbury and half the Manor of Fitz were to pass to Adam's heirs in default of issue of Adam and Isabella Accordingly on Robert's death these did not pass to Sir Walter de Hopton who however cwned the other half of Fitz as co heir to de Girros 2 He had been one of the four coroners for Shropshire in 1256 Sheriff of Shropshire and Staffordshire in 1268 a baron of the Ex chequer in 1275 and afterwards one of the itinerant justices and was present in Parliament in 1278 when Alexander King of Scotland came and did homage to Edward I He is several times mentioned as holding judicial inquiries in Shropshire 1258 1291 In 1283 he married Matilda Pantulf Baroness of Wem and thus added greatly to his previously considerable property and importance but she died in or before 1290 and he then lost most of her property as she had children by a previous husband but none by Sir Walter In that ....Etc.

[1 Kyton iii 33 viii 3 5 Eyton viii 3 x 149]


I have found no Felix Whitchurch.
Can some one please show me a source that connects to William Whitchurch??

See my above source from my last posting.

MDW

[duanej...@gmail.com]

Thanks for the information; however, I am not sure of the connection to the Whitfields of co: Northumberland, England or Randalholme. I did notice you wrote of Robert the Chaplain. Is this Robert the Chaplain of Whitfield? Also, I wrote earlier that Maud de Morville was the dau. of Hugh. She may have been?; however, Hugh was her brother, the one who killed Thomas a Beckett.
Duane

[sangreel]

Hello once more,

I seem to have found more about the Whitfield family.

A History of Northumberland, in Three Parts: General history of the country
By John Hodgson, John Hodgson-Hinde, James Raine, John Collingwood Bruce

Page: 97 - 106

https://books.google.com/books?id=D1IGAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA104&lpg=PA104&dq=randalholme+whitfield&source=bl&ots=u93V2jzWuj&sig=8VW2-fi-pMZ0oooTVYL5GN7N7s8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjE7M3s_ePUAhXox4MKHVnZAXYQ6AEILDAB#v=onepage&q=%20Whitchurch&f=false

[sangreel]

Sussex Archaeological Collections Relating to the History and Antiquities of ...
Page 83 - 90

NOTES ON THE FAMILY OF WHITFELD

This article takes the line down to the Manning Family



https://books.google.com/books?id=4vcGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA85&lpg=PA85&dq=randalholme+whitfield&source=bl&ots=O7QSBvwfWM&sig=h7-4lHpyMVL-67R5ttouJVKdB-o&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjE7M3s_ePUAhXox4MKHVnZAXYQ6AEIOTAD#v=onepage&q=randalholme%20whitfield&f=false

[wjhonson]

Not Felix Whitchurch but rather Felix Constantine *of* Whitchurch, a woman "felicia", "phyllis", etc. who married into the Antrobus family.

[sangreel]

On Friday, June 30, 2017 at 10:05:05 AM UTC-7, wjhonson wrote:
> Not Felix Whitchurch but rather Felix Constantine *of* Whitchurch, a woman "felicia", "phyllis", etc. who married into the Antrobus family.

Exactly