C.P. Addition: Parentage of Eleanor, wife of William de Saint John and Gerard de Lisle, Lord Lisle
Douglas Richardson
Going through the helpful online A2A Catalogue recently, I came across
two interesting documents. The first document is dated 1329 and it
mentions a hitherto unnoticed niece of Sir John de Warenne, Earl of
Surrey, namely Eleanor de Saint John, then a young widow, which
Eleanor was a daughter of Sir Edmund de Arundel (died 1326), Earl of
Arundel. The editor of the Berkeley Castle Muniments identifies this
Eleanor as the widow of William de Saint John, born in 1309, which
William was the son and heir apparent of John de Saint John, Knt., 1st
Lord Saint John of Basing. I find that in 1323 William's father, Sir
John de Saint John, settled the manor of Abbotstone, Hampshire on
William and his wife, Eleanor. [Reference: VCH Hampshire 4 (1911):
193; available at the following weblink:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=56783&strquery=abbotstone].
William de Saint John is known to have predeceased his father before 4
April 1329 [see Complete Peerage, 11 (1949): 326, footnote h (sub
Saint John)].
Eleanor de Arundel appears to have married (2nd) after 3 Dec. 1329
Gerard de Lisle, Knt., 1st Lord Lisle. Evidence of this marriage
comes from a second document found in the A2A Catalogue, it being
dated 1335. In that document, a certain Richard Grugan grants to Sir
Gerard de Lisle, knight, and Eleanor his wife his right and claim to
an annuity of 60s. 8d., and to 20s. a year for a robe, which he was
previously granted by Sir John de Saint John of Basing for Richard's
life from the manor of Abbotstone, Hampshire. The implication of this
document is that Eleanor, wife of Gerard de Lisle, is the same person
as Eleanor, wife of William de Saint John, on whom the manor of
Abbotstone had previiously been settled in 1323. The editor of the
Berkeley Castle Muniments reaches that conclusion, and I believe that
it is correct. VCH Hampshire notes that the manor of Abbotstone was
back in the hands of the St. John family in 1347, which is the same
date by which Eleanor de Lisle is known to have died. So that detail
dovetails nicely with the other known facts about these people. For
other significant associations between Eleanor's husband, Sir Gerard
de Lisle, and their son, Sir Warin de Lisle, with the Arundel family,
see Complete Peerage, 8 (1932): 50-52 (sub Lisle).
For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New
World immigrants that descend from Eleanor de Arundel and her second
husband, Sir Gerard de Lisle, 1st Lord Lisle:
William Bladen, Elizabeth Bosvile, George, Giles & Robert Brent, St.
Leger Codd, Edward Digges, Warham Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Anne
Mauleverer, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Herbert Pelham, Thomas Rudyard,
Katherine Saint Leger, John West.
The information in this post is a new addition to two accounts in the
authoritative Complete Peerage, namely C.P. 8 (1932): opp. 48 (Lisle
pedigree), 50-51 (sub Lisle); 11 (1949): 325-326 (sub Saint John).
Special thanks goes to the editor of Berkeley Castle Muniments who
transcribed, translated, and edited the two documents in question and
made them available to the public.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
Documents found in the A2A Catalogue (http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/
index.asp).
Berkeley Castle Muniments: Berkeley Castle Muniments, References: BCM/
D/4/4/1 (Date: 3 Dec. 1329--John de Warenne, earl of Surrey, lord of
Bromfield and Yale, and his niece Eleanor de Seynt John, daughter of
Edmund late earl of Arundel. Whereas Eleanor has acknowledged in
writing that she received from John 500 marks to lay out for profit,
for which she has to account to him, John has granted that if Eleanor
does not marry without his advice and agreement during his life, the
acknowledgement will be void); BCM/B/6/7/1 (Date: 1 March 1335--Richard
Grugan; and Sir Gerard del Ysle, knight, and Eleanor his wife.
Richard has granted to Gerard and Eleanor his right and claim to an
annuity of 60s. 8d., and to 20s. a year for a robe, which he was
previously granted by Sir John de Seyn John of Basing for Richard's
life from the manor of Abbotstone, Hampshire).
mj...@btinternet.com
On Mar 7, 9:39 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> Going through the helpful online A2A Catalogue recently, I came across
> two interesting documents. The first document is dated 1329 and it
> mentions a hitherto unnoticed niece
This was published in 2004 (Gloucestershire Record Series volume 17),
so it's only hitherto unnoticed by you.
> of Sir John de Warenne, Earl of
> Surrey, namely Eleanor de Saint John, then a young widow, which
> Eleanor was a daughter of Sir Edmund de Arundel (died 1326), Earl of
> Arundel. The editor of the Berkeley Castle Muniments identifies this
> Eleanor as the widow of William de Saint John, born in 1309, which
> William was the son and heir apparent of John de Saint John, Knt., 1st
> Lord Saint John of Basing.
(snip)
> The implication of this
> document is that Eleanor, wife of Gerard de Lisle, is the same person
> as Eleanor, wife of William de Saint John, on whom the manor of
> Abbotstone had previiously been settled in 1323. The editor of the
> Berkeley Castle Muniments reaches that conclusion
So really this is a find by the editor of GRS17, isn't it?
> (snip)
>
> Special thanks goes to the editor of Berkeley Castle Muniments who
> transcribed, translated, and edited the two documents in question and
> made them available to the public.
In fact, the editor did not merely transcribe, translate, edit and
publish the documents, she also identified the person who is the
subject of this thread, and she deserves the full credit for that.
She also has a name: Bridget Wells-Furby.
MA-R
Douglas Richardson
2005, courtesy of the A2A Catalogue. The source is Bridget Wells-
Furby, who is the editor of the Berkeley Castle Muniments. As far as
I can tell, this particular finding in the A2A Catalogue has never
been discussed here on the newsgroup.
I just checked several online genealogical databases, for example,
and no one identified Eleanor, wife of Gerard de Lisle, Lord Lisle, as
the daughter of Edmund de Arundel and Alice de Warenne.
Some people left Eleanor's maiden name blank. Many databases,
however, erroneously identifed Eleanor, wife of Gerard de Lisle, as a
member of the le Strange family. See the following:
Hats off to Bridget Wells-Furby for her solid research and detective
skills.
Peter Stewart
> I believe this material has been available on the internet since about
> 2005, courtesy of the A2A Catalogue. The source is Bridget Wells-
> Furby, who is the editor of the Berkeley Castle Muniments. As far as
> I can tell, this particular finding in the A2A Catalogue has never
> been discussed here on the newsgroup.
But you cross-posted this to four newsgroups, so which one can you
mean?
Do you really fail to understand that this (SGM) newsgroup is not the
ultimate place of record for medieval genealogy? It is an archived
discussion forum, not a publication.
As an excuse for trying to filch credit for someone else's published
information, this is pathetic even by your mendacious standards.
> I just checked several online genealogical databases, for example,
> and no one identified Eleanor, wife of Gerard de Lisle, Lord Lisle, as
> the daughter of Edmund de Arundel and Alice de Warenne.
For a "professional" you seem to spend an awful lot of time checking
amateur databases. If you find them deficient, the honourable thing to
do is to draw attention to the correction pointing out where this was
found, and of course a "professional" should add where this can be
found in print, or at least not assume that just because he doesn't
know this it must never have occurred.
> Some people left Eleanor's maiden name blank. Many databases,
> however, erroneously identifed Eleanor, wife of Gerard de Lisle, as a
> member of the le Strange family. See the following:
>
> http://awt.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?rank=0&xcb=x&tips=0&father=Ge...
>
> Hats off to Bridget Wells-Furby for her solid research and detective
> skills.
Last time round it was
On Mar 7, 9:39 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
<snip>
> The information in this post is a new addition to two accounts in the
> authoritative Complete Peerage, namely C.P. 8 (1932): opp. 48 (Lisle
> pedigree), 50-51 (sub Lisle); 11 (1949): 325-326 (sub Saint John).
<snip>
> Special thanks goes to the editor of Berkeley Castle Muniments who
> transcribed, translated, and edited the two documents in question and
> made them available to the public.
as if all she had done was to throw up some raw material for
Richardson's mighty expertise to be deployed on, coming up with "a new
addition" of his own to CP.
What was "special" about the ordinary - although misleading - thanks,
anyway? Just the writer's duplicitous smarm, as ever....
Peter Stewart
CE Wood
They married on, not after, 3 Dec 1329. That was the Sunday mentioned
in the BCM: "Sun. after St. Andrew, 3 Edw. III." The feast of St.
Andrew is 30 November, which was a Thursday in 1329.
CE Wood
On Mar 6, 2:39 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> Going through the helpful online A2A Catalogue recently, I came across
> two interesting documents. The first document is dated 1329 and it
> mentions a hitherto unnoticed niece of Sir John de Warenne, Earl of
> Surrey, namely Eleanor de Saint John, then a young widow, which
> Eleanor was a daughter of Sir Edmund de Arundel (died 1326), Earl of
> Arundel. The editor of the Berkeley Castle Muniments identifies this
> Eleanor as the widow of William de Saint John, born in 1309, which
> William was the son and heir apparent of John de Saint John, Knt., 1st
> Lord Saint John of Basing. I find that in 1323 William's father, Sir
> John de Saint John, settled the manor of Abbotstone, Hampshire on
> William and his wife, Eleanor. [Reference: VCH Hampshire 4 (1911):
> 193; available at the following weblink:http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=56783&strquery=ab...].
CE Wood
William St. John.
William's widow was Eleanor de Arundel, who then married, as his 1st
wife, Gerard Lord Lisle.
Edmund's widow was Elizabeth ?, who then married, as his 2nd wife,
Gerard Lord Lisle.
Keeping it all in the family, I see.
CE Wood
On Mar 6, 2:39 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> Going through the helpful online A2A Catalogue recently, I came across
> two interesting documents. The first document is dated 1329 and it
> mentions a hitherto unnoticed niece of Sir John de Warenne, Earl of
> Surrey, namely Eleanor de Saint John, then a young widow, which
> Eleanor was a daughter of Sir Edmund de Arundel (died 1326), Earl of
> Arundel. The editor of the Berkeley Castle Muniments identifies this
> Eleanor as the widow of William de Saint John, born in 1309, which
> William was the son and heir apparent of John de Saint John, Knt., 1st
> Lord Saint John of Basing. I find that in 1323 William's father, Sir
> John de Saint John, settled the manor of Abbotstone, Hampshire on
> William and his wife, Eleanor. [Reference: VCH Hampshire 4 (1911):
> 193; available at the following weblink:http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=56783&strquery=ab...].
Volucris
You name Eleanor as daughter of sir Edmund (Fitz Alan) earl of Arundel
and as a niece of Sir John de Warenne, earl of Surrey. Was her mother
a sister or aunt of sir John de Warenne? How was their mutual
relationship?
Hans Vogels
On 6 mrt, 23:39, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> Going through the helpful online A2A Catalogue recently, I came across
> two interesting documents. The first document is dated 1329 and it
> mentions a hitherto unnoticed niece of Sir John de Warenne, Earl of
> Surrey, namely Eleanor de Saint John, then a young widow, which
> Eleanor was a daughter of Sir Edmund de Arundel (died 1326), Earl of
> Arundel.
[snip]
Volucris
Edmund FitzAalan, 8th Earl of Arundel born 1 May 1285 Castle of
Marlborough,
died 17 November 1326 Hereford (beheaded)
married circa 1305
Alice de Warren, daughter of William de Warren and Joane de Vere
born circa 1285/1287 in Arundel, Sussex, died before 23 May 1338
Sources: Burke's Extinct Peerage, 1866, pages 200,201,202
[snip]
Children of Edmund FitzAlan, 8th Earl of Arundel and Alice de
Warren :
1. Richard (see Segment Two)
[snip]
3.Jane FitzAlan married Warrine Gerard, Lord L'Isle
Burke's Extinct Peerage, 1866, page 200. This seems to be an erroneous
entry
as The Complete Peerage, Volume VIII, page 48 and onwards, makes no
mention
of such a marriage.
Hans Vogels
Douglas Richardson
Like you, I've seen references in the literature that Edmund de
Arundel (otherwise Fitz Alan), Earl of Arundel, and his wife, Alice de
Warenne, had a daughter "Jane" who married Warrine Gerard, Lord L'Isle
(or similar statements). I hadn't ever been able to document the
existence of this Jane, or her marriage to Lord Lisle. As we know now
(thanks to impressive detective work of Bridget Wells-Furby), Earl
Edmund's daughter's name was Eleanor, not Jane, and she was married to
Gerard de Lisle, 1st Lord Lisle. Incidentally, I've been in contact
in the past with Bridget Wells-Furby about the Lisle family. However,
at the time, she told me she was working on solving the identify of
Gerard de Lisle's 2nd wife, Elizabeth, widow of Edmund de Saint John.
I don't believe she ever mentioned Eleanor de Arundel. Bridget Wells-
Furby is a most cordial person indeed.
Insofar as the Lisle family goes, some time ago I found evidence which
indicated that Gerard de Lisle's mother, Alice le Tyeys, was near
related to William de Montagu, Knt. (died 1343), 1st Earl of Salisbury
[see, for example, Calendar of the Register of Simon de Montacute,
Bishop of Worcester, 1334-1337, published 1996, pp.xviii, xxvii]. To
date, I've been unable to establish the connection between Alice le
Tyeys and William de Montagu. I suspect the relationship between the
two families was rather close, especially since her son, Gerard de
Lisle, later contracted such a high born marriage with the Arundel
family.
With regard to the surname, Arundel vs. Fitz Alan, my research
indicates that the Fitz Alan family dropped the surname Fitz Alan in
favor of Arundel about the year 1312/3. Thereafter all family members
(both male and female) occur in the records as "de Arundel" or
"Arundel." One of the last references to the name Fitz Alan in
contemporary records is a lawsuit dated Hilary term 1310, whereby
"Edmund FizAleyn, Earl of Arundell," sued John de Chauvent and Eve his
wife for the manor of Wepham, Sussex, which he claimed his great-
grandfather, John Fitz Alan, was seised in his demesne as of fee on
the day of his death [see Maitland & Turner, Year Books of Edward II,
4 (Selden Soc. 22) (1907): 204-205]. So, it would be correct to refer
to Gerard de Lisle's wife as Eleanor de Arundel. For instances of
Eleanor's brother, Richard, Earl of Arundel, using the surname "de
Arundel," see Cal.Patent Rolls, 1327-1330 (1891): 562; Cal. Fine
Rolls, 1327-1337 (1913): 181, 218; Cal.Close Rolls, 1330-1333 (1898):
81, 381; Cal.Close Rolls, 1333-1337 (1898): 154
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
On Mar 7, 7:03 am, Volucris <voluc...@kpnplanet.nl> wrote:
< Found the answer in a post of Leo from 2002.
<
< Edmund FitzAalan, 8th Earl of Arundel born 1 May 1285 Castle of
< Marlborough,
< died 17 November 1326 Hereford (beheaded)
< married circa 1305
< Alice de Warren, daughter of William de Warren and Joane de Vere
< born circa 1285/1287 in Arundel, Sussex, died before 23 May 1338
< Sources: Burke's Extinct Peerage, 1866, pages 200,201,202
< [snip]
< Children of Edmund FitzAlan, 8th Earl of Arundel and Alice de
< Warren :
< 1. Richard (see Segment Two)
< [snip]
< 3.Jane FitzAlan married Warrine Gerard, Lord L'Isle
< Burke's Extinct Peerage, 1866, page 200. This seems to be an
erroneous
< entry
< as The Complete Peerage, Volume VIII, page 48 and onwards, makes no
< mention
< of such a marriage.
<
< Hans Vogels
<
< http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/browse_thread/t...
CE Wood
1359), and Joan ? as his second and her 3rd (aft 1375). I suppose
this Joan could be Jane, but so could so many others.
CE Wood
On Mar 7, 6:03 am, Volucris <voluc...@kpnplanet.nl> wrote:
> Found the answer in a post of Leo from 2002.
>
> Edmund FitzAalan, 8th Earl of Arundel born 1 May 1285 Castle of
> Marlborough,
> died 17 November 1326 Hereford (beheaded)
> married circa 1305
> Alice de Warren, daughter of William de Warren and Joane de Vere
> born circa 1285/1287 in Arundel, Sussex, died before 23 May 1338
> Sources: Burke's Extinct Peerage, 1866, pages 200,201,202
> [snip]
> Children of Edmund FitzAlan, 8th Earl of Arundel and Alice de
> Warren :
> 1. Richard (see Segment Two)
> [snip]
> 3.Jane FitzAlan married Warrine Gerard, Lord L'Isle
> Burke's Extinct Peerage, 1866, page 200. This seems to be an erroneous
> entry
> as The Complete Peerage, Volume VIII, page 48 and onwards, makes no
> mention
> of such a marriage.
>
> Hans Vogels
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/browse_thread/t...
Douglas Richardson
Here is a reference to "Jane," daughter of Edmund, Earl of Arundel,
and his wife, Alice de Warenne, in the Dictionary of National
Biography, 7 (1908): 88 (sub Edmund Fitzalan, Earl of Arundel).
"A third daughter, Jane, is said to have married Lord Lisle (compare
the genealogies in Eyton, Shropshire, vii. 229, and in Yeatman, House
of Arundel, p. 324." END OF QUOTE.
It may be viewed at the following weblink.
http://books.google.com/books?id=kiI8AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA88&dq=Arundel+married+Lisle
A similar reference to "Jane," daughter of Edmund, Earl of Arundel,
and his wife, Alice de Warenne, can be found in Gurney, Reference
Handbook for Readers, Students, and Teachers of English History
(1890): 49 (sub Fitz-Alan, Earls of Arundel) as follows:
"Jane, married Warine Gerald, Lord Lisle." END OF QUOTE.
This item may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=iyUPAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA49&dq=Arundel+married+Lisle&lr=
As one can readily see, no original sources are cited, which is a
common pitfall of copyists like Leo van de Pas. So the material has
limited value. In this case, the information is partly correct,
partly in error. Yes, Edmund, Earl of Arundel, had a daughter who
married Lord Lisle, but her name was Eleanor, not Jane, and she
married Gerard de Lisle, not Warin de Lisle.
It is only by comparing such secondary accounts against original
records that the truth is revealed. This is why Complete Peerage has
stood the test of time, as in most instances, the editors tried to
verify all of their information against contemporary records.
mj...@btinternet.com
On Mar 8, 3:13 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> Here is a reference to "Jane," daughter of Edmund, Earl of Arundel,
> and his wife, Alice de Warenne, in the Dictionary of National
> Biography, 7 (1908): 88 (sub Edmund Fitzalan, Earl of Arundel).
>
> "A third daughter, Jane, is said to have married Lord Lisle (compare
> the genealogies in Eyton, Shropshire, vii. 229, and in Yeatman, House
> of Arundel, p. 324." END OF QUOTE.
>
> It may be viewed at the following weblink.
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=kiI8AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA88&dq=Arundel+marr...
>
(snip of inane reference to Victorian school-text)
>
> As one can readily see, no original sources are cited, which is a
> common pitfall of copyists like Leo van de Pas. So the material has
> limited value.
It is good that you have drawn the group's attention to the pitfall of
relying on secondary sources, and to the deficiencies of the DNB
article on Edmund, Earl of Arundel in particular. Surely you will
agree that anyone pretending to be an original scholar who relies on
it is revealing their own inadequacies.
We see just such an unfortunate reliance on this flawed article in the
work "Plantagenet Ancestry" (Genealogical Publishing Co, 2004, p 317),
the author of which is said to be a copyist named D. Richardson.
Unfortunately, we cannot tell what elements of his/her work rely on
this flawed secondary source, since he/she was sufficiently
unscholarly as to fail to link any references to any part of his/her
text. Accordingly, it would seem safest to reject the whole as
untrustworthy.
Thank you for drawing this to our attention.
Best always, Michael
Douglas Richardson
For those interested in reading about Sir Gerard de Lisle, 1st Lord
Lisle (died 1360), the newly discovered son-in-law of Edmund de
Arundel (or Fitz Alan), Earl of Arundel, there is an interesting
biography of him available online at the following weblink:
http://www.berkshirehistory.com/bios/glisle.html
The discovery of the maiden name of Sir Gerard de Lisle's wife,
Eleanor de Arundel, opens up a whole new wing of Plantagenet and Magna
Carta descendants. Again hats off to Bridget Wells-Furby for her fine
detective work.
Monica Kanellis
wrote:
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Has the possibility been ruled out that there were two daughters who married
into the same family? I find it a fairly common circumstance.
MK
Douglas Richardson
Thank you for your good post. Much appreciated.
There is good evidence that Eleanor, wife of Gerard de Lisle, Lord
Lisle, existed and that she was the daughter of Edmund de Arundel (or
Fitz Alan), Earl of Arundel.
There is no evidence that I know of which indicates that Earl Edmund
had a daughter, Jane, or that she married anyone named Lisle.
So, as far as I can tell, there was only one daughter, Eleanor, who
was the wife of Gerard de Lisle, 1st Lord Lisle.
In any event, if you traced it back far enough, you'd probably find
that the original source for Jane's name and marriage is probably the
record of some herald, who got her given name wrong, but the name of
her husband, Lord Lisle, correct. This kind of error is common enough
among early sources for English medieval families. Such errors,
however, often led to confusion in later secondary works, as we can
see happened in this case.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
On Mar 8, 1:29 pm, "Monica Kanellis" <monica.kanel...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Douglas Richardson
The authoritative Complete Peerage, 8 (1932): 50-51 (sub Lisle)
indicates that Eleanor de Arundel, the first wife of Sir Gerard de
Lisle, Lord Lisle, was presumably dead sometime before [30 March]
1347, when it was reported that Lady Margery de la Beche, who had been
contracted to marry to Gerard de Lisle, Knt., had been carried off
from Beaumes manor (in Swallowfield), Berkshire, by John de Dalton,
Knt., Robert de Holand, Knt., and others. Gerard de Lisle was
appointed to arrest the marauders, and, fearing bodily harm in the
attempt, was authorized to bear arms.
This information is basically drawn from Calendar of Parent Rolls,
1345-1348 (1903): 310-311, which may be viewed at the following
weblink:
pg. 310: http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e3v7/body/Edward3vol7page0310.pdf
pg. 311: http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/e3v7/body/Edward3vol7page0311.pdf
The Patent Rolls item specifically states that that Margery, widow of
Nicholas de la Beche, and Gerard de Lisle had been previously been
"united in matrimony." However, a slightly different version of Lady
Margery's abduction is found in the contemporary Register of William
Edington, Bishop of Winchester. In that document, it is stated that
at the time of her abduction "the lady Margaret declared she had been
previously contracted marriage with Gerard de Lisle, knight, who was
still alive." The term "contracted marriage" suggests that Lady
Margery was only betrothed to marry Sir Gerard de Lisle, but had not
yet formally married him.
Be that as it may, in the early hours of Good Friday, 1347
"shamelessly, with boats and ladders they carried off the noble lady
Margaret, widow of Nicholas de la Beche, knight, dragging her from her
bedroom to the hall, carrying her half-naked, with the intention of
joining her in matrimony to a certain John de Dalton." The
perpetrators were "deaf to the oath that she swore" she was contracted
to marry Gerard de Lisle. "They carried her off as she shouted and
raised a hue and cry in the countryside, and took her to somewhere
remote, where she is still detained against the king's peace." "In
their violent entry into the manor, they fought those who were trying
to prevent the abduction and shamefully killed Michael de Ponynges,
uterine brother of Margaret." [Reference: Dom. S.F. Hockey, ed., The
Register of William Edington, Bishop of Winchester, 1346-1366, Part 2
(Hampshire Rec. Ser. 8) (1987): 9)].
While I've found some accounts which identify Michael de Poynings as
the uncle of Margery de la Beche (see, for example, Russell,
Swallowfield and Its Owners (1901): 39-43), the entry in Bishop
Edington's register identifies Michael de Poynings as the "uterine
brother" of Margery de la Beche. Normally this would indicate that
the two parties had the same mother, but not the same father.
However, in this case, I believe that Michael de Poynings and Margery
de la Beche were full siblings to one another, they both being
children of Sir Michael de Poynings, Knt., of Poynings, Sussex (died
1314), and his wife, Margery, daughter of Hugh Bardolf, Knt., 1st Lord
Bardolf.
The book, Swallowfield and its Owners, may be viewed at the following
weblink:
Regardless of the issue of the parentage of Margery de la Beche, it is
certain that Lady Margery was contracted to marry Gerard de Lisle as
of the date of her abduction, that is, 30 March [Good Friday] 1347.
This in turn tells us that Lord Lisle's first wife, Eleanor de
Arundel, was dead sometime before that date.
Searching around for further evidence of Eleanor de Arundel's death
date, I've encountered a law suit dated 1342, whereby Gerard de Lisle
sued John son of Robert de Hulle, of Kislingbury, Northamptonshire.
This lawsuit was an account against a receiver who had received money
from diverse hands. In the lawsuit, specific reference is made to
various sums of money that had been received at various manors held by
Lord Lisle, including Kislingbury, Northamptonshire, Stowe,
Northamptonshire, and Kingston Lisle, Berkshire, as well as two manors
which Gerard apparently held in right of his first wife, Eleanor's
dower, namely Abbotstone, Hampshire and Walberton, Sussex [Reference:
Luke Owen Pike, Year Books of the Reign of King Edward the Third,
volume 8 [Year XVI (Second Part)] (1869): 270-271]. Eleanor de
Arundel was evidently still living as late as 1342, as her husband was
then suing his receiver for monies derived from the ownership of
manors which she held in dower of her first marriage to William de
Saint John.
Taking these various pieces of evidence together, it appears that
Eleanor de Arundel was living as late as c.1342, but was deceased
sometime before 30 March 1347.
Coincidentally, the very same manors which Eleanor de Arundel held in
dower from her first husband, William de Saint John, AGAIN came into
possession of Eleanor's second husband, Gerard de Lisle, when Lord
Lisle married for his second wife, Elizabeth, the widow of Edmund de
Saint John, nephew of William de Saint John. Thus, Gerard de Lisle
was twice blessed with possession of the manors of Abbotstone,
Hampshire and Walberton, Sussex by his two successive marriages to
widows of the baronial Saint John family. Incredibly, Gerard de
Lisle's lengthy possession of these two manors is completely
overlooked by VCH Hampshire in its account of the manor of Abbotstone
and also by VCH Sussex in its account of the manor of Walberton,
Sussex. In the Abbotstone account, mention is only made that this
property was assigned in dower to Elizabeth, widow of Edmund de Saint
John. No mention of her remarriage to Gerard de Lisle. The
historian, Bridget Wells Furby, likewise appears not to have known
that Gerard de Lisle held the manor of Walberton, Sussex in right of
his first wife, Eleanor de Arundel.
For weblinks to the two VCH accounts, see the following:
Abbotstone: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=56783&strquery=Abbotstone
Walberton: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=22948&strquery=Walberton
Thus, the 1342 lawsuit helps establish the last date that Eleanor de
Arundel was still living (c.1342), and also provides fresh evidence of
Eleanor's identity as Eleanor de Arundel, the widow of William de
Saint John.
Douglas Richardson
Good news. The lawsuit of Gerard de Lisle, Lord Lisle, dated c.1342
is available for viewing online at the following weblinks: The
correct page citation is 24 through 29.
The yearbook entry is dated Trinity Term, 1342.
This volume was published in 1900.
Enjoy!
Douglas Richardson
As indicated in my earlier post, Eleanor de Arundel, the newly
identified first wife of Sir Gerard de Lisle, 1st Lord Lisle, was
living c.1342, but was deceased sometime before 30 March 1347, when it
was revealed that Sir Gerard was then contracted to marry Margery,
widow of Nicholas de la Beche. On this date, 30 March 1347, Lady
Margery was violently abducted from the manor of Beaumes (in
Swallowfield), Berkshire, by John de Dalton, Knt., Robert de Holand,
Knt., and others. She subsequently married Sir John de Dalton.
The authoritative Complete Peerage, 8 (1932): 50-51 (sub Lisle) and
11 (1949): 327 (sub Saint John) states that Sir Gerard de Lisle, 1st
Lord Lisle, subsequently married (2nd) before 3 July 1354 Elizabeth
_____, widow of Edmund de Saint John, 3rd Lord Saint John of Basing.
Edmund de Saint John had died as a minor in Calais in 1347. About 3
November 1347, following Edmund's death, his widow, Elizabeth, was
assigned the manors of Abbotstone and Bromlee, Hampshire and the manor
of Walberton, Sussex as her dower [Reference: Calendar of Inquisitions
Post Mortem, 9 (1916): 39].
It appears that Sir Gerard de Lisle, Lord Lisle, and his second wife,
Elizabeth, widow of Edmund de Saint John, were married before 29 July
1349, on which date he presented to the church of Abbotstone,
Hampshire, which manor the said Elizabeth held in dower. The
contemporary Register of William Edington, Bishop of Winchester, gives
the following record of Sir Gerard's presentation in 1349:
"Admission of Richard de Farham subdeacon as rector of the church of
Abbotston, vacant, at the presentation of Gerard de Insula, patron.
Letter to the archdeacon of Winchester for the induction. Marwell, 29
July 1349." [Reference: Edington, Reg. of William Edington Bishop of
Winchester 1346-1366 1 (Hampshire Recs. 7) (1986): 98].
The Berkeley family historian, Bridget Wells-Furby, was aware that
Elizabeth, 2nd wife of Sir Gerard de Lisle, had the manor of
Abbotstone, Hampshire in dower. However, she appears to have missed
the above record of Sir Gerard's presentation to Abbotstone church in
1349. Reviewing her notes, I see that Furby indicates only that Sir
Gerard and Elizabeth were married before 1351:
"Eleanor [de Arundel] had clearly died by 1347, when Edmund de St.
John, her first husband's nephew, died holding Abbotstone, [Hampshire]
but Gerard was to get it back again within four years by marrying
Edmund's widow." [Reference: A2A Catalogue, Berkeley Castle
Muniments, BCM/B/6/7].
The full comments by Wells-Furby are available at the following
weblink:
Curiously, no source is given by Wells-Furby for the "four years"
date. But, as we can see above, Sir Gerard and Elizabeth were
actually married within two years of Edmund de Saint John's death, not
four years.
The record in Bishop Edington's register is the second record missed
by Wells-Furby in connection with Gerard de Lisle's two marriages.
Peter Stewart
<snip>
> It appears that Sir Gerard de Lisle, Lord Lisle, and his second wife,
> Elizabeth, widow of Edmund de Saint John, were married before 29 July
> 1349, on which date he presented to the church of Abbotstone,
> Hampshire, which manor the said Elizabeth held in dower. The
> contemporary Register of William Edington, Bishop of Winchester, gives
> the following record of Sir Gerard's presentation in 1349:
>
> "Admission of Richard de Farham subdeacon as rector of the church of
> Abbotston, vacant, at the presentation of Gerard de Insula, patron.
> Letter to the archdeacon of Winchester for the induction. Marwell, 29
> July 1349." [Reference: Edington, Reg. of William Edington Bishop of
> Winchester 1346-1366 1 (Hampshire Recs. 7) (1986): 98].
According to Wells-Furby the previous patron, Elizabeth's first
husband Edmund de St. John, had died in 1347 aged 14. How old was his
widow by 29 July 1349? And who would have exercised the advowson if
she was not remarried by then? A presentation made in the sole name of
Gerard de Lisle, who had last held the right before the deceased
Edmund, does not seem compelling on its own to prove that he and
Elizabeth must have been husband and wife.
I don't see that Wells-Furby has necessarily missed anything by
stating correctly that Gerard got the manor of Abbotstone back "within
four years" from 1347 - or that it is a dire oversight if she had.
Nothing, for instance, to compare to the gaping holes in Douglas
Richardson's unaided research. We are still waiting to hear about even
the most rudimentary attempt on his part to "analyse" royal kinship
statements, on which he has set so much store over years....
Peter Stewart
Douglas Richardson
One of the enthusiastic posters on the newsgroup posted a message this
past week which needs further clarification.
In the matter of the ownership of the manor and advowson of
Abbotstone, Hampshire, it has already been pointed out that Gerard de
Lisle had this manor in right of his first wife, Eleanor de Arundel,
by the dower of her first marriage to William de Saint John [see, for
instance, Pike, Year Books of Edward III 8 (Rolls Ser. 31) (1900): 24-
29; the weblinks for this record were provided in an earlier post].
Eleanor de Arundel was still living c.1342, but she was deceased
sometime before 30 March 1347, at which time any right Gerard would
have had in both the manor and advowson would have ceased. Indeed,
surviving records prove that both the manor and advowson were held by
William de Saint John's nephew, Edmund de Saint John, at the time of
his death at Calais in 1347. This is proven by inquisitions dated 3
Nov. 1347 and 21 Dec. 1347 which were taken immediately following the
death of Edmund de Saint John [see, for example, Calendar of
Inquisitions Post Mortem, 9 (1916): 39, 40].
Further light on this matter is shed by another inquisition taken some
years later in which it is stated that Edmund de Saint John's widow,
Elizabeth, then the wife of Gerard de Lisle, held the manors of
Abbotstone and Bromley, Hampshire and Walberton, Sussex "by the gift
of Edmund de Saint John, sometime her husband." [see Calendar of
Inquisitions Post Mortem, 10 (1921): 228-229]. This means that
Elizabeth, the 2nd wife of Gerard de Lisle, had the gift of the manor
(and presumably the advowson) of Abbotstone, Hampshire during the
lifetime of her first husband, Edmund de Saint John, or in or before
1347. Since we know that Eleanor de Arundel was dead before 30 March
1347, the return of the manor of Abbotstone back to the Saint John
family before that date dovetails nicely with what we know of the
chronology of Eleanor's life.
Since Gerard de Lisle's right in Abbotstone was based solely on the
dower rights of his two respective wives, both of whom were Saint John
widows, he can only have presented to the church at Abbotstone during
the time he was married to one of these two women. As noted in my
earlier post, the contemporary Register of William Edington, Bishop of
Winchester, gives the following record of Sir Gerard's presentation to
this church in 1349:
"Admission of Richard de Farham subdeacon as rector of the church of
Abbotston, vacant, at the presentation of Gerard de Insula, patron.
Letter to the archdeacon of Winchester for the induction. Marwell, 29
July 1349." [Reference: Edington, Reg. of William Edington Bishop of
Winchester 1346-1366 1 (Hampshire Recs. 7) (1986): 98].
Since we know for certain that Eleanor de Arundel was dead before
1347, Gerard de Lisle can only have made this presentation when he was
married to his second wife, Elizabeth, widow of Edmund de Saint John.
Since we know that Elizabeth de Saint John had possession of the manor
from in or before 1347, the logical assumption is that Elizabeth was
already married to Gerard de Lisle before 29 July 1349, when Gerard
made the above mentioned presentation to the Abbotstone church. The
historian Bridget Wells-Furby has in fact stated that Gerard and
Elizabeth were married by 1351, but so far I haven't noticed the
record on which she has based that statement. In any case, Wells-
Furby appears to have overlooked the record of Gerard de Lisle's
presentation of the church of Abbotstone in July 1349. This is the
second record she overlooked in connection with Gerard de Lisle's
ownership of Abbotstone, Hampshire.
Comments are invited, indeed welcome. However, please post your
sources and your weblinks if you have them.
Peter Stewart
"Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:ca739f8c-1882-4ed0...@s8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
You have not addressed the questions that were raised, and your post above
failing to do this is the only weblink needed to prove it.
Who would have exercised the advowson in 1347 on behalf of Edmund's widow
Elizabeth? Why could this not have been Gerard de Lisle _before_ he married
her? No-one has disputed that she held the manor of Abbotstone from in or
before 1347 when her first husband died as a minor (reportedly aged 14). As
the rectory became vacant between then and July 1349, someone had to
exercise the advowson for her if she was _not_ remarried by that time. Who
would this have been, and why not Gerard de Lisle who was an adult
connection of the family? How do you know he did not perhaps marry her
later?
Peter Stewart
Douglas Richardson
< Who would have exercised the advowson in 1347 on behalf of Edmund's
widow
< Elizabeth? Why could this not have been Gerard de Lisle _before_ he
married
< her? No-one has disputed that she held the manor of Abbotstone from
in or
< before 1347 when her first husband died as a minor (reportedly aged
14). As
< the rectory became vacant between then and July 1349, someone had to
< exercise the advowson for her if she was _not_ remarried by that
time. Who
< would this have been, and why not Gerard de Lisle who was an adult
< connection of the family? How do you know he did not perhaps marry
her
< later?
<
< Peter Stewart
I'll ask you the same sort of question. How do you know Gerard de
Lisle wasn't married to Elizabeth de Saint John by 1349? The correct
answer is: There is no evidence in play which precludes Gerard de
Lisle from having married Elizabeth de Saint John as early as 1349.
In fact, the historian Bridget Wells-Furby says that this couple were
married by 1351. So far I haven't determined Wells-Furby's evidence
for this statement. What I have found, however, is new evidence
which supports Gerard de Lisle's first marriage to Eleanor de Arundel,
and new evidence which suggests Gerard de Lisle and his 2nd wife,
Elizabeth de Saint Saint, were married in or before 1349.
So what new evidence do you have? Please let's not rehash the ground
I've already covered.
Peter Stewart
You have not covered the ground, of course. "Suggests" is not the same as
"proves", and you made a to-do about Wells-Furby allegedly missing somehting
that you have not yet substantiated.
I don't pretend to know when Gerard married Elizabeth, or that the evidence
given so far precludes this having taken place by July 1349: I ask if this
precludes its taking place later, and you avoid answering.
Elizabeth was presumably around the same age as her first husband. Gerard
might have contracted to marry her as a young widow when she was old
enough - a grown man would hardly court the humiliation of an underage bride
changing her mind later, that would be far less humiliating for a boy of her
own age.
On the other hand, he _might_ have married her by 1348/49 - but the mere
fact of his presenting to a living of the manor of Abbotstone in July 1349,
when he was the last patron before Elizabeth's deceased minor husband and by
his first marriage the boy's relative (obviously well placed to marry the
widow), does not seem conclusive proof to me that he or anyone _must_ have
been Elizabeth's new husband at that time.
Peter Stewart
Douglas Richardson
There is a possibility that Gerard de Lisle presented to the church of
Abbotstone, Hampshire in 1349 acting as guardian of Elizabeth, widow
of Edmund de Saint John, whom he subsequently married. The record
does not say this, however. Likewise, there is no indication that
Elizabeth de Saint John had a guardian representing her when she was
assigned dower in 1347 from her first husband, Edmund de Saint John's
estate (I'm quoting from the Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem
only). The failure to mention a guardian for Elizabeth de Saint John
in 1347, however, doesn't mean she didn't have one. In fact, if she
was a minor (as is likely), she would have had to have had a guardian
representing her.
The appointment of guardians for minors is one of the murkier points
in English medieval records. Sometime ago, one enthusiastic poster
was cock sure that William Longespee was of age when his brother, the
king, granted him lands in Lincolnshire without mentioning a guardian
for William. However, elsewhere it occurs that another king granted
lands to his minor son, also without mentioning a guardian for the son
in that grant. In that case, other records clearly indicate that the
king's minor son then had a guardian acting on his behalf as was
required. So the failure to mention a guardian for a minor in any one
particular record doesn't mean that one didn't exist. The same would
be true for Elizabeth de Saint John.
In a related vein, I find that in 1316 that Henry le Tyeys, and
Margaret his wife, plaintiffs, by John de Burghton, her guardian,
received one messuage, 3 carcucates of lands, 3-1/2 acres of meadow
and 104 s. 3-1/2 d. rent in Burbage Savage, Wiltshire by grant of
Philip Sturmy and Sarah his wife [Reference: R.B. Pugh, ed., Abstracts
of Feet of Fines relating to Wiltshire for the Reign on Edward I and
Edward II (Wiltshire Arch. & Nat. Hist. Soc. Records Branch, vol. 1)
(1939): 91]. Henry le Tyeys was Gerard de Lisle's own uncle. And,
as we can see, Henry's wife, Margaret, had a guardian who represented
her in this transaction. Usually someone might have an attorney
represent them, but, in this case, it was a guardian for the wife
only. As such, I assume this means that Margaret de Brewes, wife of
Henry le Tyeys, was still rather young. Margaret's later husband,
Thomas de Monthermer, was certainly a minor at this time, he being
born in 1301.
Bridget Wells-Furby, had stated that Gerard de Lisle and his wife,
Elizabeth de Saint John, were married before 1351. Possibly she
included the evidence for this statement in the Lisle documents
available in the A2A Catalogue.
Douglas Richardson
The authoritative Complete Peerage, 8 (1932): 51-52 (sub Lisle) has a
good account of the life of Warin de Lisle, Knt. (died 1382), 2nd Lord
Lisle of Kingston Lisle, son and heir of Gerard de Lisle, Knt., 1st
Lord Lisle of Kingston Lisle, by Eleanor, the newly identified
daughter of Edmund de Arundel (or Fitz Alan), Knt., Earl of Arundel.
Regarding Warin de Lisle's second marriage to Joan _____, the
following information is given:
"He married Joan, widow of John Wynnow, by whom he had no issue ...
[Joan] died 27 April 1392, holding lands in dower from both her
husbands." END OF QUOTE.
Footnote "m" on page 52 explains that Warin de Lisle's second wife,
Joan, had a daughter, Alice, by her first marriage to John Wynnow,
which Alice married Sir Ralph Barry, by whom she had a son, John
Barry. This John Barry was his grandmother's heir in 1392.
Actually Joan, 2nd wife of Warin de Lisle, Lord Lisle, actually had
FOUR marriages in all, not two as stated by Complete Peerage.
Following Warin de Lisle's death, Joan married before 18 Nov. 1383
(date of recognizance) (as her 4th husband) Gilbert Talbot, Knt., of
Wadley and Wicklesham, Berkshire, Knight of the Shire for Berkshire,
1386. He presented to the church of Stowe, Northamptonshire in right
of his wife, Joan's Lisle dower in c.1383 [Reference: Baker, History &
Antiquities of Northampton 1 (1822-1830): 441-445 (Lisle pedigree)].
A couple of records relating to Joan's marriage to Sir Gilbert Talbot
are found in the A2A Catalogue, where Sir Gilbert Talbot is
erroneously called Joan's third husband by the historian, Bridget
Wells-Furby. Below is a copy of one of those records.
Source: A2A Catalogue. (http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/documentxsl.asp?
stylesheet=xsl\A2A_doc.xsl&i=0&com=1&nbKey=1&keyword=Warin+de
+Lisle&properties=0601)
Reference: Berkeley Castle Muniments, BCM/B/4/4/9.
Thomas lord of Berkleye; and Sir Gilbert Talbot and Joan his wife. 18
Nov. 7 Ric. II [1383].
Whereas Thomas is bound in a recognisance of statute merchant of £400
to Gilbert and Joan, Gilbert has granted that the bond will be void if
Thomas or his heirs pays yearly at the manor of Chepynge Faryndon
(Berks.) to Gilbert and Joan for the life of Joan an annual rent of
£50 which will be reserved in a fine to be levied between the said
lord and Margaret his wife and Gilbert and Joan, on the manor of
Shirebourne with appurtenances (Oxon.), and on a messuage and 1
carucate of land in the same vill, on terms which will be comprised in
the fine. At: Westminster. END OF QUOTE.
A full length biography of Sir Gilbert Talbot is elsewhere given in
Roskell, House of Commons 1386-1421 3 (1992): 560-563 (biog. of Sir
Gilbert Talbot). There the reader may find discussion with sources
cited that Sir Gilbert Talbot himself married three times, his second
wife being the said Joan, "widow of John Wynow, Sir Nicholas Tamworth
(died 1376), and Warin [de Lisle], 2nd Lord Lisle (died 1382)."
The statement that Joan was previously the wife of Sir Nicholas
Tamworth (died 1376) is correct. Sir Nicholas Tamworth was a
prominent man in his day, he being Admiral of the North and Captain of
Calais. There are several contemporary records in existence which
show that Sir Gilbert Talbot obtained the manor of Newton Longville,
Buckinghamshire as well as other Cluniac estates in marriage to Sir
Nicholas Tamworth's widow, Joan. Besides these properties, Sir
Gilbert Talbot also obtained the manor of Shirburn, Oxfordshire, in
right of his wife, Joan's dower of her Lisle marriage, which property
they exchanged in 1383-4 for a rent of £50 a year from Thomas de
Berkeley, husband of Joan's step-daughter, Margaret Lisle [see A2A
Catalogue for particulars].
As for Sir Gilbert Talbot himself, his first wife, Margaret, is
identified by Roskell as being Margaret, widow of "John de Blaumonster
of Wighill, Yorks." They were married before November 1376.
Margaret's parentage is not given by Roskell. However, my research
indicates that Margaret was the daughter of Sir Roger de Beauchamp,
1st Lord Beauchamp of Bletsoe, by Sibyl, daughter of John de
Pateshulle, Knt. She married (1st) John de Blanchminster, Knt., of
Stratton and Bossiney, Cornwall, and the Scilly Islands. Margaret
appears to have had no surviving issue by either her Blanchminster
marriage or her Talbot marriage.
Sir Gilbert Talbot's third wife was Margaret Howard, widow of
Constantine Clifton, Esq. or Gent. (died 19 Feb. 1395/6), 2nd Lord
Clifton, and daughter of Robert Howard, Knt. of East Winch, Norfolk,
by Margaret (or Margery), daughter of Robert de Scales, 3rd Lord
Scales. Sir Gilbert Talbot and Margaret Howard had one son, Richard
Talbot, born in 1398, who died in young adulthood in 1413. Sir
Gilbert Talbot died 6 Feb. 1398/9. Margaret Howard presented to the
church of Sandringham, Norfolk in 1396, 1405, 1408, 1410, and,
together with the prior of Westacre, in 1422 and 1427 [Reference:
Parkin, An Essay Towards a Topog. Hist. of the County of Norfolk 9
(1808): 71-72]. She presented to the church of Babingley, Norfolk in
1425. Margaret died 25 March 1434, and was buried at Black Friars,
Norwich, Norfolk. Further particulars of Sir Gilbert Talbot may be
found in Nicolas, Controversy between Scrope & Grosvenor, 2 (1832):
397-398 (biog. of Sir Gilbert Talbot).
Complete Peerage, 3 (1913): 308 (sub Clifton) states that Margaret
Howard, widow of Constantine, Lord Clifton, "married before 1397 Sir
Gilbert Talbot, who died Feb. 1398/9." No documentation is provided
by Complete Peerage for this marriage, although the information is
correct. Sir Gilbert Talbot died 6 Feb. 1398/9, as stated by Roskell.
So, we have new additions above for both the Lisle and the Clifton
accounts in Complete Peerage, and for Roskell, as well as a correction
for the A2A Catalogue.
Peter Stewart
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> There is a possibility that Gerard de Lisle presented to the church of
> Abbotstone, Hampshire in 1349 acting as guardian of Elizabeth, widow
> of Edmund de Saint John, whom he subsequently married. The record
> does not say this, however. Likewise, there is no indication that
> Elizabeth de Saint John had a guardian representing her when she was
> assigned dower in 1347 from her first husband, Edmund de Saint John's
> estate (I'm quoting from the Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem
> only). The failure to mention a guardian for Elizabeth de Saint John
> in 1347, however, doesn't mean she didn't have one. In fact, if she
> was a minor (as is likely), she would have had to have had a guardian
> representing her.
This is what I was getting at, thanks. The more circumstances we know about,
the more factors that need to be taken into account in gauging the
likelihood of any conclusion. If we didn't know of a previous connection,
however indirect, between these two, it would be appear more than likely
that Gerard _had_ married Elizabeth before the presentation. No doubt this
also means we are sometimes wrong in what seem to be reasonable suppositions
about such matters where there is less evidence available in the first
place. In this particular case, apart from the possibility of formal
guardianship, there could be a question of how long the parish and the
bishop might tolerate delay in appointing a new rector if the patron was not
yet capable in case she did not have a guardian ready to act for her - so
that referring it to the previous patron with general agreement on a nominee
might have been an acceptable solution, for all I know. If something like
that happened here, it might even have planted the idea of a marriage rather
than showing that one had already taken place.
> The appointment of guardians for minors is one of the murkier points
> in English medieval records. Sometime ago, one enthusiastic poster
> was cock sure that William Longespee was of age when his brother, the
> king, granted him lands in Lincolnshire without mentioning a guardian
> for William. However, elsewhere it occurs that another king granted
> lands to his minor son, also without mentioning a guardian for the son
> in that grant. In that case, other records clearly indicate that the
> king's minor son then had a guardian acting on his behalf as was
> required. So the failure to mention a guardian for a minor in any one
> particular record doesn't mean that one didn't exist. The same would
> be true for Elizabeth de Saint John.
I don't recall this issue over William Longespee ("one enthusiastic poster"
is a rather creepy way to sneer anonymously), but I would think a guardian
might not necessarily be mentioned in a grant that was for life, or in
perpetuity, beyond the limited term of guardianship. If a guardian was
specifically named in such a context, would this not create a new problem
with the grant if that guardian should die before the minor came of age,
leading to complications that would be avoided by simply not mentioning a
temporary arrangement automatically falling into place, legally, anyway?
Peter Stewart
Douglas Richardson
While going through the helpful National Archives Catalogue this
morning, I came across a record of the "much married" Joan and her 3rd
husband, Sir Warin de Lisle, 2nd Lord Lisle, here called "Sir Waryn
del Isle, lord of Tieis." The record is dated 1380.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Source: National Archives Catalogue
Weblink:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=7519612&CATLN=6&Highlight=%2CDEL%2CISLE&accessmethod=0&Summary=True
C 146/3219
Record Summary
Scope and content
Release by Stephen Burle and Maud his wife, to Sir Waryn del Isle,
lord of Tieis, and Joan his wife, of all their right in a wood called
'Dalrugge' in Eschifford, for Maud's life. Witnesses:- Sir Robert
Symeon, knight, Walter Ferrour of Hungerford, and others (named):
[Berks.]
Covering dates 10 June, 3 Richard II [1380].
Douglas Richardson
Those wishing to read further about the various husbands of Joan, wife
of Sir Warin de Lisle, 2nd Lord Lisle, may do so in the following
periodical, Annales de l'Académie de Mâcon, 3rd ser. 15 (1910): 369-
370. This work discusses the Cluniac land holdings of Sir Nicholas
Tamworth and Sir Gilbert Talbot, which individuals were the second and
fourth husbands respectively of the said Joan. This source may be
found at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=JvpDAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA369&dq=Gilbert+Talbot+Letcombe#PPA369,M1
I should note that the book, Fulham Old and New: Being an Exhaustive
History of the Ancient Parish of Fulham, by Charles Feret, published
in 1900, pg. 269 erroneously identifies Joan, wife of Sir Warin de
Lisle, as the daughter of Edmund, Earl of Arundel. Joan was most
certainly not a daughter of the Earl of Arundel.
http://books.google.com/books?id=-lkJAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA269&dq=Joan+Arundel+Warin+Lisle
In this instance, the author Mr. Feret has carelessly confused Joan,
wife of Sir Warin de Lisle, with her husband's mother, Eleanor de
Lisle, which Eleanor was in fact a daughter of Edmund, Earl of
Arundel. Naturally, Mr. Feret gave no documentation for his statement
for Joan's parentage.
Douglas Richardson
In my post this past week, I stated that the historian Roskell had
indicated the first wife of Sir Gilbert Talbot (died 1399), of Wadley
and Wicklesham, Berkshire, was Margaret, widow of Sir John
Blaumonster, of Wighill, Yorkshire [Reference: Roskell, House of
Commons 1386-1421 4 (1992): 560-563 (biog. of Sir Gilbert Talbot)].
While this information is correct, Roskell failed to identify
Margaret's parentage.
An examination of the available records of the time period turns up
various records of Margaret's first husband, Sir John de
Blanchminster, whose surname is usually rendered in records of this
time period as Blankmouster, Blaunkmoustier, Blaunkmonster, or even by
the Latin form, Albo Monasterio. Sir John appears to have been an
adult in or before 1361 [Reference: Brown, Yorkshire Deeds 1
(Yorkshire Arch. Soc. Rec. Ser. 39) (1909): 187]. Sir John de
Blanchminster was a Knight of the Shire for Cornwall in Dec. 1373 [see
Calendar of Close Rolls, 1369-1374 (1911): 611]. He evidently died
soon afterwards without issue. Margaret, his widow, married before 3
November 1376 (date of fine) Sir Gilbert Talbot [Reference: Baildon,
Feet of Fines for the County of York, 1347-1377 (Yorkshire Arch. Soc.
Rec. Ser. 52) (1915): 190]. Sir John de Blanchminster's heir was Guy
de Blanchminster, clerk (presumably his brother), who promptly sold
the Yorkshire holdings of the family, including the manor of Wighill,
Yorkshire, to Sir Brian de Stapleton and his wife, Alice [Reference:
ibid., 200]. In 1377 Guy de Blanchminster likewise settled the
remaining family estates in Cornwall on Robert Tresilian and his wife,
Emme, daughter of Richard Huwissh, and their male issue, with
remainder if default of male issue to William Neville, of Pickhill,
Yorkshire (ancestor of the well known Neville family of Rolleston,
Nottinghamshire and Holt, Leicestershire) [Reference: Rowe & Tapley-
Soper Cornwall Feet of Fines 1 (Devon & Cornwall Rec. Soc. 1914a)
(1914): 416-417]. This second settlement of the Cornish estates
mentions various properties then held in dower by Gilbert Talbot and
Margaret his wife for the term of Margaret's life, which record proves
that Margaret, then wife of Gilbert, was living as late as 20 Jan.
1377/8. This record was missed by Roskell. The Blanchminster
properties eventually passed by inheritance to the Colshull family
[Reference: Rowe & Tapley-Soper Cornwall Feet of Fines 2 (Devon &
Cornwall Rec. Soc.) (1950): 187-188], but were claimed about 1440, by
the Neville family.
As for the exact parentage of Margaret, wife successively of Sir John
de Blanchminster and Sir Gilbert Talbot, there are several records
which have survived which detaill the marriage settlement of Sir John
de Blanchminster. According to these documents, on 20 January 1368/9,
Sir John de Blanchminster agreed to settle his Cornish and Yorkshire
manors on himself and his future wife, Margaret, daughter of Sir Roger
de Beauchamp [Reference: Calendar of Close Rolls, 1364-1368 (1910):
501]. Following the couple's marriage, the agreed upon settlement of
properties duly took place at London 4 May 1369, in the presence of
Thomas de Beauchamp, Earl of Warwick, and Robert de Roos, Knt.
[Reference: Calendar of the Close Rolls, 1369-1374 (1911): 90-91].
Thus, it appears that Sir John de Blanchminster and Margaret de
Beauchamp were married on or about 4 May 1369.
Margaret's father, Sir Roger de Beauchamp, Knt., can be readily
readily identified as Sir Roger de Beauchamp (died 1379), 1st Lord
Beauchamp of Bletsoe, which Roger was a near relation to Thomas de
Beauchamp, Earl of Warwick. I don't find Margaret de Beauchamp
mentioned in any of the standard online genealogical databases or in
Complete Peerage. As such, I believe Margaret de Beauchamp is a
hitherto overlooked descendant of King Henry II of England. For
interest's sake, I've posted below Margaret de Beauchamp's descent
from King Henry II of England.
1. Henry II, King of England, by a mistress, Ida de Tony.
2. William Longespée, Knt., Earl of Salisbury, married Ela of
Salisbury.
3. Ida Longespée, married William de Beauchamp, Knt., of Bedford,
Bedfordshire.
4. Ela de Beauchamp, married Baldwin Wake, Knt., of Bourne,
Lincolnshire.
5. Ida Wake, married John de Stonegrave, of Stonegrave, Yorkshire.
6. Isabel de Stonegrave, married Simon de Pateshulle, of Pattishall,
Northamptonshire.
7. John de Pateshulle, Knt., of Pattishall, Northamptonshire, married
Mabel de Grandison.
8. Sibyl de Pateshulle, married Roger de Beauchamp, Knt., 1st Lord
Beauchamp of Bletsoe.
9. Margaret de Beauchamp, married (1st) John de Blanchminster, Knt.;
(2nd) Gilbert Talbot, Knt.
Douglas Richardson
Below is a transcript of the actual Close Rolls item which proves that
Margaret, wife successively of Sir John de Blanchminster and Sir
Gilbert Talbot, was the daughter of Sir Roger de Beauchamp, Knt.
Enjoy!
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
Source: Calendar of Close Rolls, 1364-1368 (1910): 501.
Year: 1369.
Indenture made between Sir Roger de Beauchamp knight and Sir John de
Blankmouster knight, being the defeasance of a yearly rent of 200l. by
the said Sir John granted to the said Sir Roger, his heirs and
assigns, by deed enrolled in chancery, upon condition that Sir John
shall make a feoffment to certain persons of all the manors, tenements
and rents in the said deed comprised whereof the said rent was
issuing, to again enfeoff within two years the said Sir John and
Margaret daughter of the said Sir Roger, when she shall be his wife,
and the heirs of their bodies, with remainder for luck of such issue
to the right heirs of Sir John, or that the said Margaret shall die
within the term aforesaid so that no such feoffment may be made.
Dated Westminster, Saturday before the Conversion of St. Paul 42
Edward III. Memorandum of acknowledgement by the parties at London,
20 January.
Douglas Richardson
As a followup to my earlier posts regarding the date of the 2nd
marriage of Sir Gerard de Lisle, Lord Lisle, to Elizabeth, widow of
Edmund de Saint John, it appears that Sir Gerard de Lisle settled two
manors in Cornwall on his wife, Elizabeth, on or before 1 July 1351,
which is indicated by a fine published in Cornwall Feet of Fines
(Devon & Cornwall Rec. Soc.) (1914), page 361. A snippet view of this
item may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=eGUDAAAAMAAJ&dq=Cornwall+Fines+Gerard&q=Lisle&pgis=1#search
The two documents below likewise deal with this same settlement,
although they do not name Gerard's wife, Elizabeth.
This information is an addition to the authoritative Complete Peerage
for its accounts of both the Lisle (of Kingston Lisle) and Saint John
families.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Source: Online A2A Catalogue (http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp)
1. Berkeley Castle Muniments, Reference: BCM/B/4/3/1
Creation dates: [1351]
Language: French
Scope and Content
Gerard del Isle, knight; and his clerks Sir John of the Hulle, parson
of Kislingbury, and Sir John de Newenham, parson of Chedle. 3 May 25
Edw. III
Gerard has granted to John and John all his goods in the manors of
Awartone and Tuernayl and in all his other holdings in Cornwall.
At: Kingston.
2. Berkeley Castle Muniments, Reference: BCM/B/4/3/2
Creation dates: [1351]
Scope and Content
Gerard de Insula, knight; and Sir John de Kyselyngbury and Sir John de
Newenham. 20 June 25 Edw. III
Gerard has quitclaimed to John and John the manors of Alwartone and
Tuernayl and all other lands which he had in Cornwall.
At: Truthall.