Re: Medieval Jewish Ancestors: a critical list

[WJho...@aol.com]

Can you give an example where Eckebrecht descends to an aristocratic family ?



In a message dated 11/8/2008 5:30:20 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
andrews...@googlemail.com writes:

2) Jewish converts from Cologne: from 1135 "Eckebrecht qui fuit judeus
" [who was a jew' is mentioned in several documents. He's among the
ancestor of almost all medieval patrician and aristocratic families
from medieval Cologne.

**************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other
Holiday needs. Search Now.
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from
-aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001)

[Nathaniel Taylor]

In article
<277ae9be-67b3-49b5...@u29g2000pro.googlegroups.com>,
andrews...@googlemail.com wrote:

> one that I just remembered:
>
> 3) Solomon ha-Levi (a.k.a. Paul of Burgos (http://en.wikipedia.org/
> wiki/Paul_of_Burgos) : a 14th century rabbi who became bishop of
> Burgos. He also has quite a number of descendants (also in the
> Americas). I am not aware though of a recent study of his family and
> the earliest generations.

Who are his descendants? I'd like to see some sample lines, with
citation even to old material if there are things you have in mind.

Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://www.nltaylor.net/sketchbook/

[smallc...@gmail.com]

On Nov 8, 8:25 pm, andrewsrgen...@googlemail.com wrote:
> I was wondering whether anybody in this group can add some more
> examples to the following list?
>
> because of a  challenge suggested by a Jewish friend, I am looking for
> Jewish families or individuals who converted in medieval times and for
> whom there is clear evidence that they were of Jewish origin. I am not
> talking about suspicions  or rumors of a possibly Jewish origins
> (f.ex. because of  a Jewish sounding surname, or Iberian converso
> rumors speculation, like f.ex. the cases of "Paloma", Makhir/Theuderic
> etc ), but medieval individuals who have proven Jewish ancestry. I
> want the list to be as critical as possible, and therefore, I have so
> far only  managed found very few cases of families/individuals with
> traceable Jewish origins:
>
> 1) Eberler (genannt Grünzweig) family from Basel: in 1362, "Eberli,
> der jude von Colmer" was admitted to the city of Basel (Switzerland).
> See the article by August Burckhardt in : Basler Zeitschrift für
> Geschichte und Altertumskunde, IV. Band, 1905. If you speak german,
> the article is reprinted here:http://www.vogel-soya.de/Eberler.html

>
> 2) Jewish converts from Cologne: from 1135 "Eckebrecht qui fuit judeus
> " [who was a jew' is mentioned in several documents. He's among the
> ancestor of almost all medieval patrician and aristocratic families

> from medieval Cologne.  The historian K.Kulbach-Fricke studied this
> case in detail in (german): " Ein getaufter Jude als Ahnherr des
> Kölner Patriziats und des rheinischen Adels, in: "Genealogisches
> Jahrbuch"  Vol. 39, 1999, pages 57-99.
>
> 3) Pierleoni: i often read that they were originally Jewish, but where
> can i find serious evidence or a family tree?
>
> Does anybody have more good examples?

I found this one through the course of my own research, mostly using
published Spanish biographical histories. It should be accurate, at
least as far as the sources are. For example, I found this family
treated in the "Armorial universel," by Fortuné Koller.

The conquistador Gaspar Arias Dávila came to Mexico and Guatemala, and
was involved in the conquest of Uspantán. His uncle was the colonial
administrator Pedrarias Dávila. Gaspar, who died before June 1543,
left descendants in colonial Guatemala.

Gaspar was the son of Gómez González de la Hoz, of Segovia, and Isabel
Arias Dávila. Isabel was further the daughter of Diego Arias Dávila,
minister under Enrique IV of Castilla. Diego's Jewish origin is
treated in "Conversos, Inquisition, and the Expulsion of the Jews from
Spain," by Norman Roth (pp 120-122).

If correct, this family has a very large number of descendants, not
only in Segovia, but in Mexico and Guatemala.

[t...@clearwire.net]

I cannot speak to this specific example, but one must take a little
care with Roth. His work is intended to show how broadly conversos
permeated Iberian society, and he seems to have accepted every claim
and rumor as authentic.

taf

[gra...@gmilne.demon.co.uk]

The Senior/Coronel/Senior-Coronel family is a good example. They are
descended from Don Abraham Senior (b 1410/12 d 1493) of Castile, who
converted in 1492, taking the name Coronel. Many of his descendants
converted back again to Judaism, if they ever converted properly in
the first place, though many kept the name Coronel. The name can still
be found in Amsterdam. Don Abraham was the ancestor of many noble
Portuguese families, including the family of da Mata de Sousa
Coutinho, Counts and Marquises of Penafiel, who were Coronel in the
male line. I have traced this family into a branch of the House of
Braganza; I have the notes somewhere. Don Abraham appears to have been
the last person who was accorded the title 'Exilarch'; that is 'Head
of the Exile' or 'Prince of the Captivity' (a title exclusive to the
House of David) after the Exilarchate in Mesopotamia came to an end
when Tamerlane the Great sacked Baghdad in 1401.

See:

http://www.peerage.org/genealogy/page420.jpg

and

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=474&letter=S&search=don%20abraham%20senior

and

http://www.peerage.org

The Marquises of Sao Paio (Portugal) are also Jewish in origin, I
believe.

Graham Senior-Milne

[smallc...@gmail.com]

>
> I cannot speak to this specific example, but one must take a little
> care with Roth.  His work is intended to show how broadly conversos
> permeated Iberian society, and he seems to have accepted every claim
> and rumor as authentic.
>
> taf

For what it's worth, Diego Arias Dávila has an extensive entry in the
"Jewish Encyclopedia," available here:
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=156&letter=D.

Furthermore, it appears that his wife was also from a Jewish family--
all of her siblings remained Jewish and were noted as so. Of course,
I am not looking at original records, so I cannot say how much of this
is latter-day fantasy. According to all the sources I can find
however, Diego was born Isaac Abenazar.

[gra...@gmilne.demon.co.uk]

On 9 Nov, 19:46, "gra...@gmilne.demon.co.uk"

> http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=474&letter=S&search=...

>
> and
>
> http://www.peerage.org
>
> The Marquises of Sao Paio (Portugal) are also Jewish in origin, I
> believe.
>

> Graham Senior-Milne- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

See also:

http://www.peerage.org/genealogy/coronel/coronel.pdf

for Don Abraham's descendants in Portugal.

[A JACOBSON]

There are bet dins (jewish rabbinical courts) that have a large amount of information about certain converso families -- I've heard of them visiting both Seattle (where there are a large number of Sephardic jews) and New Mexico, where there is a belief among certain hispanic families that they are of converso origin. These bet dinim are willing to acknowledge as jews (rather than convert) a few individuals who have a provable unbroken maternal line to conversos documented in Inquisition records, and their burden of proof is, in my opinion, very strick. Perhaps you can try to locate some of these bet dinim. Perhaps if you contacted some orthodox Sephardic congregations, they might have information leading to some of these bet dinim.

> From: andrews...@googlemail.com> Subject: Re: Medieval Jewish Ancestors: a critical list> Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 10:13:11 -0800> To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com> > Nat, I don't have a source for the Ha-Levi/Santa-Maria family. You can> find some stuff on the internet, but all the sources they use are> either very old or lack quality. I corresponded with a history> professor in Spain a few years ago (circa 1999 or so) (his name> escapes me); he said that there was indeed such a family in Burgos,> but that there was no proper research on this specific case.> > I am rather skeptical about a lot of these "converso" claims; I think> there is a lot of romantic longing for "a special kind of> ancestry" (instead of just "ordinary" immigrants), that motivates> people from Latin America to make such statements (much in the same> manner, that people in Northern Europe like to call every ancestor who> had a french sounding surname, a hugenot). In fact, I have never seen> (with the exception of the Ha-Levi/Santa-Maria case and actual> Sephardi Jewish families in Amsterdam etc) any evidence for converso> ancestry. I am not saying that there is no such ancestry, i just think> that people often too quickly claim converso ancestry; this has> resulted in people with common hispanic surnames (like Diaz, Mendez> etc) telling me they have converso ancestry, with zero evidence to> back up such claims.> > But what about non-spanish examples? I cannot really imagine that the> Swiss and German case are the only ones that exist?> > Max> > -------------------------------> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

[A JACOBSON]

> From: andrews...@googlemail.com> Subject: Re: Medieval Jewish Ancestors: a critical list> Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 15:42:05 -0800> To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com> > beit dins: I have heard of such courts. There is also an organization> called Shavei Israel, who try to reconnect alleged descendants of> Jews or alleged lost tribes to their alleged roots. Personally> speaking, I find some of their projects (not all of them though) a bit> curious. In terms of genetics, the evidence is very thin. and> according to some scholars a lot of these allegedly jewish identities> are modern inventions and romantic projections; but this is a> controversial discussion and irrelevant to the present topic.> I'm not talking about people with an oral tradition of being jewish. I am only talking about orthodox bet din that require a solid matrilineal descent, usually from people recorded by the Inquisition for the crime of judaizing. In the many cases where someone has a familial tradition of coming from conversos, a formal conversion is needed, same as for any other non-jew -- ONLY a documented purely matrilineal line will allow someone to be recognized as a Jew without conversion. The bet din that concentrate on making these distinctions (and most bet dinim wouldn't touch the topic, they don't have the specialized knowledge of the converso family trees that is needed) would be the ones that could produce solid information along these lines. The bet din are very strict in their judgements.

I don't know of any jewish genetics study that follows the female dna rings (can't think of the exact term off hand), and bet din aren't interested in patrilineal lines. The only interesting genetic study I know of is the Cohen gene, and that's on the Y chromosone, but though it is much more prevelent amongst jews who believe themselves to be cohenim, it is by no means exclusively found amongst jews, much less cohenim.

Anita

[WJho...@aol.com]

In a message dated 11/9/2008 2:20:09 AM Pacific Standard Time,
andrews...@googlemail.com writes:

http://fabpedigree.com/s040/f169020.htm
it states on this website that Eckebrecht is:
HRH Charles's 24-Great Grandfather
HRH Albert II's 24-Great Grandfather.
HM Juan Carlos' 25-Great Grandfather.
Ksr Wilhelm II's 23-Great Grandfather.>>

-------
This site should be tossed to the wind.
It is just so much more internet fluff that is almost useless.
You would do better citing to Leo's giant database and checking to see if
these are sensible connections.

I say almost, because it *did* make me start checking a few of these links.

Will Johnson

[Ford Mommaerts-Browne]

----- Original Message -----
From: "A JACOBSON" <amjaco...@msn.com>
To: <andrews...@googlemail.com>; "gen-medieval@ rootsweb.com"
<gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 2:24 PM
Subject: RE: Medieval Jewish Ancestors: a critical list

>
> bet dinim. bet dinim.
>

Not house of judgements, but houses of judgement - beitot, (f. pl.), din.

[WJho...@aol.com]

The critical link which cuts the royal English descent here is finding
evidence that Sophia von Herzelin
1) married Philip von Merode
and
2) was his only wife and mother of Swenold von Merode (aka von dem
Rode-Hemmersbach)

You can see here on Leo's site
_http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00235210&tree=LEO_
(http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00235210&tree=LEO)
where this connection *should* go, but there is no mother there at all.

So suspicions are raised.

[WJho...@aol.com]

In a message dated 11/9/2008 12:20:46 PM Pacific Standard Time,
gra...@gmilne.demon.co.uk writes:

http://www.peerage.org/genealogy/coronel/coronel.pdf>>

--------
Part of which is a hand-drawn family tree of unknown provenance.
And part of which is typed and not very well at that.
Call me skeptical.

[jhigg...@yahoo.com]

On Nov 10, 8:57 pm, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:
> The critical link which cuts the royal English descent here is finding  
> evidence that Sophia von Herzelin
> 1) married Philip von Merode
> and
> 2) was his only wife and mother of Swenold von Merode (aka von dem  
> Rode-Hemmersbach)
>
> You can see here on Leo's site
> _http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00235210&tree=LEO_
> (http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00235210&tree=LEO)
> where this connection *should* go, but there is no mother there at  all.
>
> So suspicions are raised.
>
> Will Johnson

Actually, the website that you are so scornful of does not say that
Sophia von Hirzelin [sic] married Philipp von Merode - it says that
she was his mother. In this it agrees (more or less) with the Merode
tables in vol. 18 of ESNF, which are well-sources - with the caveat
that the parentage of Philipp is indicated by dotted lines, indicating
that his parentage (presumably both mother and father) is not certain.

And ESNF does give a mother for Swenolt de Merode, the ancestor of
Princes William and Harry, which happens to agree with the scorned
website. The fact that this information does not appear in Leo's
excellent database should not give you concern about its validity, as
Leo (were he still participating in this increasingly limited group)
would be the first to tell you that his database is hardly exhaustive
in its coverage.

ESNF specifies no parents for Sophia von Hirzelin, but that doesn't
necessarily mean that it couldn't be proven from sources unavailable
to (or unconsulted by) the respected compiler of ESNF.

[WJho...@aol.com]

In a message dated 11/10/2008 10:25:16 PM Pacific Standard Time,
jhigg...@yahoo.com writes:

ESNF specifies no parents for Sophia von Hirzelin, but that doesn't
necessarily mean that it couldn't be proven from sources unavailable
to (or unconsulted by) the respected compiler of ESNF.>>

-------
I never said it doesn't mean it. Of course we find additions and
corrections all the time
But *this site* is not a sufficient source for such a connection.
And it cites no sources whatsoever.
So there ya go :)

Those who are advocating this connection, should post credible sources when
requested :)

[Francisco Tavares de Almeida]

[re-posted with non signifiantcorrections and the name "Luiz de Bivar
Guerra" for any skeptical who may want to google it]

On 11 Nov, 05:56, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:

> http://www.peerage.org/genealogy/coronel/coronel.pdf>>

> Part of which is a hand-drawn family tree of unknown provenance.

That is the hand writing of Luiz José de Bivar de Sousa Leão Pimentel
Guerra aka Luiz de Bivar Guerra, reputed genealogist, member of the
Portuguese Academy of History, of the Portuguese Institute of
Heraldics and of the Association of Portuguese Archaeologists, who
died 14 Mar 1979, nearly 75 years old.
He attested formally - sealed blue paper and signature recognized by a
public notary - that he had personally investigated in the portuguese
archives and that the presented genealogy was valid and true in
accordance with the documents.
Before the family was established in Portugal he has transcribed the
written genealogies of XIV to XVII wich as you know are not well
sourced and sometimes mere fantasy in the earlier generations. Luiz
Bivar Guerra clearly states that the 4th grandfather is hyphotetic.

> And part of which is typed and not very well at that.

You may have noticed that the formal document was from 1976 and I
remember seeing Luiz de Bivar Guerra using a "Royal"(*) of the
thirties.
And btw english was not even the first foreign language in Portugal
(it was french).

(*) He used it in a report to the french prime-minister Pierre Mendés-
France who's family came to France from the Netherlands after escaping
the Inquisition in Portugal where they used "Mendes de França" showing
an original french provenance.

> Call me skeptical.

I will not call you anything because I am hardly trying to qualify to
Diana's list.

Best regards,
Francisco
(Portugal)

[Francisco Tavares de Almeida]

You will find some examples here:
http://groups.google.pt/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/browse_thread/thread/af4c6464a82729aa?hl=pt-PT
About 90% of portuguese can prove some converso ancestry. More than
30.000 processes of the Inquisition are kept in "Torre do Tombo" the
main portuguese archive.

Google Pierleoni and read Wikipedia, The Catholic Encyclopedia or the
Jewish Encyclopedia.

Best regards,
Francisco
(Portugal)

[gra...@gmilne.demon.co.uk]

On 11 Nov, 11:05, Francisco Tavares de Almeida

You've lost me Francisco. Which great-grandfather is hypothetic? And
where does Guerra say this?

Thanks.

Graham

[WJho...@aol.com]

I would be very interested to know of a "fairly good line" to some patrician
or aristocratic family in say the 15th century or later.
If you can make a good case, for a good line, then it's quite likely that
others can extend it into the nobility at some point.
It's not really worth much trouble however, unless it's a fairly good case.
There are tons of bad cases :) Including some I've created myself!

Will Johnson


In a message dated 11/11/2008 8:20:09 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
andrews...@googlemail.com writes:

know that his descendants include countless patrician/
noble families from the Rhineland such as Overstoltz, Hardevuyst,
Liekirchen, etc etc this has been documented in the article i

[Francisco Tavares de Almeida]

Note (1) on left top of pdg.

(1) Aonde querem os genealógicos mascarar a cristã-novice
com uma informação da traição cometida por um
s/4º avô (hipotético, já se sabe)

(1) Where the "genealógicos" [an almost derindingly expression to mean
the authors of genealogies commanded by a family in social ascension
or written just to please them and obtain favor] try to mask the
"cristã-novice" [condition of converso, "cristão-novo" in portuguese]
with the information of a treason perpretated by one 4º grandfather
[ggggrandfather] (hypothetical, as known).

Note: "traição" is feminine "a traição" and if that was meant
"hipotética" [not "hipotético"] should have been written.

Best regards,
Francisco
(Portugal)

On 11 Nov, 14:30, "gra...@gmilne.demon.co.uk"

[t...@clearwire.net]

On Nov 11, 8:52 am, Francisco Tavares de Almeida

<francisco.tavaresdealme...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Note (1) on left top of pdg.
>
> (1) Aonde querem os genealógicos mascarar a cristã-novice
> com uma informação da traição cometida por um
> s/4º avô (hipotético, já se sabe)
>
> (1) Where the "genealógicos" [an almost derindingly expression to mean
> the authors of genealogies commanded by a family in social ascension
> or written just to please them and obtain favor] try to mask the
> "cristã-novice" [condition of converso, "cristão-novo" in portuguese]
> with the information of a treason perpretated by one 4º grandfather
> [ggggrandfather] (hypothetical, as known).

This is at heart a common claim - 'of course the genealogists and
historians have covered up any Jewish origin', while on the other
side, both older propagandists and modern pro-semitic revisionism
tends to take anyone of obscure origin and conclude they were Jewish.

What is the current state of affairs with regard to Ines Peres,
mistress of Joao I and ancestress of the Braganza? As with most other
royal mistresses, she has been deemed Jewish. I see repeated
reference to one broadly cited source, but if the evidence was
correctly quoted, I found it unconvincing.

taf

[Francisco Tavares de Almeida]

No source of authority for that figure that may well be 80 or 95%.
Just my knowledge of portuguese social history and the Inquisition.
Both difficult to summarize.

Just a few hints. You may start with something between 20 and 35% of
jews and conversos in the beginning of XV. Some conversos never really
left judaism and most of those left the country to Flanders. But the
great majority did become true christians after a certain time and
they intermarried with old christians. By the beggining of XVIII this
was clearly shown in inquisition processes where the prosecuted were
half "cristão-novo", 1/4 of "cristão-novo" or part "cristão-novo"
meaning a great-grandfather or even a great-great-grandfather 1/16
"cristão-novo".

The jews and later the conversos were generally better off than
christians. Better educated, they hold professions and some were very
rich. To marry a converso was generally a good bargain and even in the
nobility it happened sometimes.
You must also take into account that there are ashknazi jews and
sephardite (the iberians) and the last are much less "intensive" in
their cultural behavior.

Also some of the first conversos, like Coronel and others were
nobilitated and from than on they married without distinctions. And
the portuguese society is somehow unique and interclass marriages are
much more common that in any other european country.

For the possibility of proof the Inquisition's processes were highly
organized and always had a chapter called genealogy with all that was
known about the family, always grandparents, sometimes geat-
grandparents, always brothers, oncles, and 1st cousins, sometimes
grand-uncles and 2nd cousins, and when known where they lived, their
age, professions and who they married to. This means that not only the
prosecuted but virtually all the conversos were covered in that
universe of 30.000 processes.

All considered I find difficult that the final figure would be below
my estimate.

Best regards,
Francisco

On 11 Nov, 16:15, andrewsrgen...@googlemail.com wrote:

>
> Francisco:  May I ask where did you get the 90% figure from? A lot of
> Iberian people have Jewish ancestry, but I think most of them would
> have a hard time actually proving this, no?
>
>
> Max

[WJho...@aol.com]

I've never been one Francisco to believe in an "appeal to authority".
That is, that *who* someone is, has any bearing on their argument and
presentation.

If their research is sound, it will speak for itself.
If it's unsound, then no matter who they are, it's still unsound.

So telling me how grand this person was, and how many societies he belonged
to, doesn't impress me.
The most striking thing about the page you posted is how difficult it would
be, for someone else to confirm or deny it.

Why? Because he doesn't tell us, what sources he used, where they are, what
they say and don't, how that impacts the nice tree he's drawn or doesn't.

In short, this looks more like "notes". It doesn't look like a completed
project. It looks like someone was digging in his garbage can. :)

It could be a place to start, but it can't be a place to end. And it's not
something that can be used as authoritative, without references back to the
primary material.

It's true that many works, esp. of the 19the century and earlier are done in
this same style. But hopefully we've moved beyond that, to the point where
we cite our sources in such a way, that anyone else can easily find them to
verify what they say.

Will Johnson

[Francisco Tavares de Almeida]

On 11 Nov, 17:23, t...@clearwire.net wrote:
>
> What is the current state of affairs with regard to Ines Peres,
> mistress of Joao I and ancestress of the Braganza?  As with most other
> royal mistresses, she has been deemed Jewish.  I see repeated
> reference to one broadly cited source, but if the evidence was
> correctly quoted, I found it unconvincing.
>
> taf

You have never been an easy person to get convinced. ;-)
Nothing new about it and under a strictly genealogical approach I do
not think anything new will ever arise.

Under an historical approach you have more freedom to interpretate the
facts:
1. Generally speaking a jew was a better lover for a scion of nobility
because she was culturally nearer him (the equivalent in culture and
probably hygiene and manners had to be found in the lower nobility or
in a merchant family);
2. Afonso was first entrusted to a jewish family.
3. When some houses were given to Inês Peres to grant her some income,
those were in the jewish quarter of Beja.

I think "probably of jewish origin" fairly adequate.

Best regards,
Francisco

[gra...@gmilne.demon.co.uk]

On 11 Nov, 16:52, Francisco Tavares de Almeida

> > Graham- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

But he is not referring to the descent from Don Abraham surely, since
he drew it up? Can he be talking about Don Abraham's ancestors - but
we don't even know the name of his father.

Graham

[gra...@gmilne.demon.co.uk]

> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?red...
> -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001)

Guerra does cite sources.

On the pedigree he refers to Jose Amador de los Rios, Estudios
historicos, politicos y literarios sobre los Judios de Espana, p 445;
Jose Amador de los Rios, Historia social, politica y religiosa de los
judios de Espana y Portugal, iii, p 279-296; Kayserling, Geschichte
der Juden in Portugal, p 83 & 102.

That's three for a start.

Also, in his paper 'Les Coronel en Portugal' there are references to
original grants of arms (e.g. http://www.peerage.org/genealogy/senior_grant.htm
- that's an original from 1499. How's that for a source?) which of
course prove the existence of the grantee and are evidence of his
antecedents, in this case Nicolao Coronel, nephew of Don Abraham).

It might help if you actually read the document you are commenting on.

Graham

[Francisco Tavares de Almeida]

On 11 Nov, 17:59, WJhon...@aol.com wrote:

Comments interspread

> I've never been one Francisco to believe in an "appeal to authority".
> That is, that *who* someone is, has any bearing on their argument and  
> presentation.
>

It would have been an argument of authority if somedody had opposite
data; this is only a testimony.
I have personally known Bivar Guerra, a friend of my father. I know
and have some works of him and I know he kept a modest living. Thefore
if he said he consulted the documentation in "Torre do Tombo" and the
"Reservados" of the National Library (as he wrote in the document) I
do not doubt it.

>
> If their research is sound, it will speak for itself.
> If it's unsound, then no matter who they are, it's still unsound.
>

And your conclusion about this particular case is ...?

>
> So telling me how grand this person was, and how many societies he belonged > to, doesn't impress me.

No intention of impressing. Just show that he could not be a fake as
he had a reputation to preserve.
Please remember that this is for me an hostile environment - almost an
american with british ancestry shield (or reserve) - and sometimes has
incursions of counts Clonard (or something like) and dukes of San
Donato (idem). I realize the effrontery for intruding - lightly
punished by being referred as "one Francisco" - and I will retire from
scene.

>
> The most striking thing about the page you posted is how difficult it would  
> be, for someone else to confirm or deny it.
>
> Why?  Because he doesn't tell us, what sources he used, where they  are, what
> they say and don't, how that impacts the nice tree he's drawn or  doesn't.
>
> In short, this looks more like "notes".  It doesn't look like a  completed
> project.  It looks like someone was digging in his garbage can.  :)
>
> It could be a place to start, but it can't be a place to end.  And  it's not
> something that can be used as authoritative, without references back to  the
> primary material.
>

Here you are aplliyng your culture and your time. Bivar Guerra was
given a comission and for the patron his guarantee was perhaps more
important than the details. Or with details the fee was higher and the
patron did not wished to pay for it.
I think he had to make a more complete work to Mendès-France because
that was what was commanded.
In those days if a foreigner, through his embassy - it was the case of
Mendès-France - would make an inquire about a reputed genealogist
specialized in jewish families, Bivar Guerra would be the answer.

> It's true that many works, esp. of the 19the century and earlier are done  in
> this same style.  But hopefully we've moved beyond that, to the point  where
> we cite our sources in such a way, that anyone else can easily find them  to
> verify what they say.

Once again true today but not at the the time with no photocopies nor
computers.
And when Bivar Guerra writes "Inigo Lopes Coronel (fez provas dos
previlégios do seu avô) [proved (against the king's court of law) the
privileges of his grandfather]
somebody with the proper knowledge knows exactly where to look for the
document. If wrong he could be easily exposed by his own pairs.

Best regards,
Francisco

[gra...@gmilne.demon.co.uk]

On 11 Nov, 19:39, Francisco Tavares de Almeida

Don't retire Francisco. You are a gentleman and a scholar. If only
there were more of you about.

[WJho...@aol.com]

The problem being that the sources cited don't create this particular
reconstruction.

This reconstruction has *much* more to it, than just that. Yet the way it's
written up, is almost slop-handed, I mean it's presented in a very rough
form.

IF you were willing to go through link-by-link and show what sources were
used, that would be entirely different. But this looks like he wasn't
finished, he was starting and didn't ever finish. Or he was just doing this for idle
amusement, not to actually show the connections.

I know he cites some sources. My point is, what he cites, is not
sufficient, for what he purports to show that is *new*. That's the real issue. There
are new connections here, but we don't know where he got them. Not exactly.
Just a vague statement.

Will Johnson
**************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other
Holiday needs. Search Now.

(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from
-aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001)

[gra...@gmilne.demon.co.uk]

> (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?red...
> -aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001)

Really? And how would you know? Are you familiar with Kayserling, for
instance? Have you conducted a long and arduous study into his sources
to establish his reliability? I don't think so. You are like a
Hottentot questioning the Complete Peerage as an authority. Put
simply, you know no more about this particular issue than I do about
brain surgery.

[WJho...@aol.com]

In a message dated 11/11/2008 12:35:24 PM Pacific Standard Time,
gra...@gmilne.demon.co.uk writes:

Really? And how would you know? Are you familiar with Kayserling, for
instance? Have you conducted a long and arduous study into his sources
to establish his reliability? I don't think so. You are like a
Hottentot questioning the Complete Peerage as an authority. Put
simply, you know no more about this particular issue than I do about
brain surgery.>>

--------
So you draw a conclusion without evidence, and then present it as a
hypothesis, knowing that you've already decided. And then show, the conclusion,
which was apparent in the rhetoric.

It's clear you think I'm an idiot. That doesn't help your genealogical
case, which is still flawed.

**************AOL Search: Your one stop for directions, recipes and all other
Holiday needs. Search Now.

(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212792382x1200798498/aol?redir=http://searchblog.aol.com/2008/11/04/happy-holidays-from
-aol-search/?ncid=emlcntussear00000001)