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C.P. Addition: Alice, wife of Sir Sampson Foliot, ancestor of the Tyeys and Lisle families
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Douglas Richardson
Sep 16, 2016, 5:53:54 PM9/16/16
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Dear Newsgroup ~
A lineal ancestor of the Lords Tyeys and Lisle is a certain Sir Sampson Foliot, of Hardwell (in Compton Beauchamp), Berkshire, Fritwell, Oxfordshire, Chilton Foliat, Draycot Foliat, and Ogbourne St. Andrew, Wiltshire, etc., Sheriff of Oxfordshire and Berkshire, 1267–8 [see Complete Peerage 12(2) (1959): 103 (sub Tyeys)]. In 1278 he witnessed a transfer of property in Ashbury, Berkshire [see VCH Berkshire 4 (1924): 503–512, citing Deeds at Magdalen College, Stainswick, 75]. Sir Sampson Foliot was living 30 May 1281, when he was pardoned for the murder of his son, Roger Foliot [see Cal. of Patent Rolls, 1272–1281 (1901): 441; VCH Wiltshire 9 (1970): 43–49]. He died before 1284, when his grandson, Henry le Tyeys, held his fee at Hardwell (in Compton Beauchamp), Berkshire [see VCH Berkshire 4 (1924): 523–528]. No inquisition post mortem appears to have been taken following his death.
I'm not aware of any published source which identifies the wife of Sir Sampson Foliot, including Complete Peerage. However, recently I encountered a Common Pleas lawsuit dated Easter term 1282, which shows that Alice, widow of Sampson Foliot, was then suing for her dower regarding various rents in Ordeston (in Ashbury), Berkshire. Below is a brief abstract of this lawsuit:
In Easter term 1282 Alice, widow of Sampson Foliot, sued Ralph de Lymesy in the Court of Common Pleas regarding the third part of £11 rent in Ordeston [in Ashbury], Berkshire, which she claimed as dower. [Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/45, image 5850f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no45/CP40no45afr/IMG_5850.htm)].
By the above lawsuit, we see that Sir Sampson Foliot died before Easter term 1282, and was survived by a widow, Alice.
For interest's sake, the following is a list of the numerous 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Sir Sampson Foliot and his wife, Alice:
Henry, Thomas & William Batte, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Elizabeth Bosvile, George, Giles & Robert Brent, Stephen Bull, Edward Carleton, St. Leger Codd, Edward Digges, John Fenwick, John Fisher, Warham Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Hannah, Samuel & Sarah Levis, Catherine Loraine, Roger & Thomas Mallory, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne Mauleverer, Joseph & Mary Need, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Ellen Newton, John Oxenbridge, Herbert Pelham, Thomas Rudyard, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, John West.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
A lineal ancestor of the Lords Tyeys and Lisle is a certain Sir Sampson Foliot, of Hardwell (in Compton Beauchamp), Berkshire, Fritwell, Oxfordshire, Chilton Foliat, Draycot Foliat, and Ogbourne St. Andrew, Wiltshire, etc., Sheriff of Oxfordshire and Berkshire, 1267–8 [see Complete Peerage 12(2) (1959): 103 (sub Tyeys)]. In 1278 he witnessed a transfer of property in Ashbury, Berkshire [see VCH Berkshire 4 (1924): 503–512, citing Deeds at Magdalen College, Stainswick, 75]. Sir Sampson Foliot was living 30 May 1281, when he was pardoned for the murder of his son, Roger Foliot [see Cal. of Patent Rolls, 1272–1281 (1901): 441; VCH Wiltshire 9 (1970): 43–49]. He died before 1284, when his grandson, Henry le Tyeys, held his fee at Hardwell (in Compton Beauchamp), Berkshire [see VCH Berkshire 4 (1924): 523–528]. No inquisition post mortem appears to have been taken following his death.
I'm not aware of any published source which identifies the wife of Sir Sampson Foliot, including Complete Peerage. However, recently I encountered a Common Pleas lawsuit dated Easter term 1282, which shows that Alice, widow of Sampson Foliot, was then suing for her dower regarding various rents in Ordeston (in Ashbury), Berkshire. Below is a brief abstract of this lawsuit:
In Easter term 1282 Alice, widow of Sampson Foliot, sued Ralph de Lymesy in the Court of Common Pleas regarding the third part of £11 rent in Ordeston [in Ashbury], Berkshire, which she claimed as dower. [Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/45, image 5850f (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E1/CP40no45/CP40no45afr/IMG_5850.htm)].
By the above lawsuit, we see that Sir Sampson Foliot died before Easter term 1282, and was survived by a widow, Alice.
For interest's sake, the following is a list of the numerous 17th Century New World immigrants that descend from Sir Sampson Foliot and his wife, Alice:
Henry, Thomas & William Batte, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Elizabeth Bosvile, George, Giles & Robert Brent, Stephen Bull, Edward Carleton, St. Leger Codd, Edward Digges, John Fenwick, John Fisher, Warham Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Hannah, Samuel & Sarah Levis, Catherine Loraine, Roger & Thomas Mallory, Anne, Elizabeth & John Mansfield, Anne Mauleverer, Joseph & Mary Need, Philip & Thomas Nelson, Ellen Newton, John Oxenbridge, Herbert Pelham, Thomas Rudyard, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard Saltonstall, John West.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
The Hoorn
Sep 17, 2016, 7:24:21 AM9/17/16
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Doug:
What is the line of descent for Edward Carleton of Rowley, Mass. from this ancestor?
Thanks.
What is the line of descent for Edward Carleton of Rowley, Mass. from this ancestor?
Thanks.
Douglas Richardson
Sep 17, 2016, 6:43:44 PM9/17/16
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In answer to your question, the first seven generations of the descent from Sir Sampson Foliot down to Edward Carleton are as shown below. From Generation 7 forward, I'm sure you can make your connection to Edward Carleton. I believe the problem generation for you is Generation 5 below. All secondary sources I've consulted identify Margery, wife of Herbert de Saint Quintin, as a Lisle, which I believe is correct, but I'm not sure on what evidence this identification has been made. It surely comes from an earlier source which I haven't been able to locate. I can state with certainty that Margery de Lisle's husband, Sir Herbert de Saint Quintin, witnessed a deed of Margery's widowed mother Alice de Lisle and her brother, Henry le Tyeys, in 1346, as shown by a document copied below from the online Discovery catalogue. This deed is good supporting evidence for the published sources which identify Margery as a Lisle.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
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1. Sampson Foliot, Knt., living 30 May 1281, died before Easter term 1282, married Alice _____, living Easter term 1282.
2. Joan Foliot, married Henry le Tyeys, of Alverton (in Penzance), Cornwall, Albury, Fritwell, and Shirburn, Oxfordshire, etc., died by 1282.
3. Henry le Tyeys, Knt., 1st Lord Tyeys, married Hawise de Montagu.
4. Alice le Tyeys, married Warin de Lisle, Knt.
5. MARGERY DE LISLE, married HERBERT DE SAINT QUINTIN, Knt., of Brandesburton, Yorkshire, Great Bradley (in Cookham), Berkshire, Stanton St. Quintin, Wiltshire, Frome St. Quintin, Dorset, etc., son and heir of Herbert de Saint Quintin, of Stanton St. Quintin, Wiltshire, by Lora, daughter of Walter de Fauconberge, Lord Fauconberge. They had two daughters, Elizabeth and Lora. He witnessed a charter of Alice, widow of Warin de Lisle, Knt., and her son, Henry Tyeys, Knt. in 1346. SIR HERBERT DE SAINT QUINTIN died in May 1347. His widow, Margery, married (2nd) before 13 Feb. 1350/1 without license ROGER HUSEE (or HUSSEY), Knt., of West Betchworth, Surrey, Moreton, West Hemsworth, and Ringstead, Dorset, Barton Stacey, Hampshire, etc., son and heir of John Husee, Knt., of Moreton and West Hemsworth, Dorset, Bridmore (in Berwick St. John), Wiltshire, etc., by Maud, daughter of Reynold de Haselden. He was born at Moreton, Dorset 7 July 1305. They had no issue. He was on the king’s service in 1332. He was summoned for military service 24 Dec. 1334 and 27 March 1335. He was summoned to Parliament from 20 Nov. 1348, 1 Jan. 1348/9, and 10 March 1348/9, by writs directed Rogero Huse or Husee, whereby he is held to have become Lord Husee. His wife, Margery, died 21 May 1361. SIR ROGER HUSEE, Lord Husee, died 1 Sept. 1361. Kimber & Johnson, Baronetage of England 1 (1771): 431–437 (sub St. Quintin) (author identifies Margery, wife of Herbert de Saint Quintin, as “daughter and coheir of Warin d’Insula, Lord Lisle.”). Banks, Dormant & Extinct Baronage of England 1 (1807): 412–414 (sub St. Quintin) (author identifies Margery, wife of Herbert de Saint Quintin, as “daughter and coheir of Warine de Lisle”). Poulson, Hist. & Antiqs. of the Seigniory of Holderness 1 (1840): 267 (author identifies Margery, wife of Herbert de Saint Quintin, as “daughter and co-heir of Margery daughter and co-heir of Warwick de Lisle.”). Banks, Baronies in Fee 1 (1844): 254–255 (sub Hoese), 307–308 (sub Marmyun of Witringham), 406–407 (sub St. Quintin) (St. Quintin ped.) (author identifies Margery, wife of Herbert de Saint Quintin, as “sister of Gerard de Lisle.”). Burke, Gen. Hist. of the Dormant, Abeyant, Forfeited & Extinct Peerages (1866): 469–470 (sub St. Quintin) (author identifies Margery, wife of Herbert de St. Quintin, as “sister of Gerard de Lisle, and dau. and co-heir of Warine de Lisle.”). C.C.R. 1346–1349 (1905): 227. C.C.R. 1349–1354 (1906): 283–284. C.C.R. 1360–1364 (1909): 194. VCH Berkshire 3 (1923): 124–133. C.P. 7 (1929): 12–14 (sub Husee). VCH Wiltshire 14 (1991): 215–216. VCH Yorkshire E.R. 7 (2002): 245–254, 306–321. Berkeley Castle Muniments, BCM/B/4/4/1 (available at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk). National Archives, SC 8/115/5745 (available at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk).
6. Lora de Saint Quintin, married (1st) Robert de Grey, Knt.
7. Elizabeth Grey, married Henry Fitz Hugh, K.G., 3rd Lord Fitz Hugh.
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Source: Online Discovery catalogue
Reference: BCM/B/4/4/1
Description:
Alice widow of Warin de Insula, knight, and Henry Tyeys, knight, her son. Thurs. after St. Hilary, 19 Edw. III
Alice has granted to Henry two parts of her manor of Shyrebourne, and the reversion of the third part held in dower by Margaret widow of Henry Tyeys for her life; to him and his issue, with remainder to Warin de Lile her son and his issue, and her own right heirs.
Witnesses: Aymer de Sancto Amando, Herbert de Seint Quintyn, Robert de Hildesle, knights, Gilbert de Shotesbrok, Robert Hoppegras.
At: Chilton Foliat.
[Please quote GC3126 at Berkeley Castle Muniments when requesting this file]
Date: [19 Jan. 1346]
Held by: Berkeley Castle Muniments, not available at The National Archives
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
1. Sampson Foliot, Knt., living 30 May 1281, died before Easter term 1282, married Alice _____, living Easter term 1282.
2. Joan Foliot, married Henry le Tyeys, of Alverton (in Penzance), Cornwall, Albury, Fritwell, and Shirburn, Oxfordshire, etc., died by 1282.
3. Henry le Tyeys, Knt., 1st Lord Tyeys, married Hawise de Montagu.
4. Alice le Tyeys, married Warin de Lisle, Knt.
5. MARGERY DE LISLE, married HERBERT DE SAINT QUINTIN, Knt., of Brandesburton, Yorkshire, Great Bradley (in Cookham), Berkshire, Stanton St. Quintin, Wiltshire, Frome St. Quintin, Dorset, etc., son and heir of Herbert de Saint Quintin, of Stanton St. Quintin, Wiltshire, by Lora, daughter of Walter de Fauconberge, Lord Fauconberge. They had two daughters, Elizabeth and Lora. He witnessed a charter of Alice, widow of Warin de Lisle, Knt., and her son, Henry Tyeys, Knt. in 1346. SIR HERBERT DE SAINT QUINTIN died in May 1347. His widow, Margery, married (2nd) before 13 Feb. 1350/1 without license ROGER HUSEE (or HUSSEY), Knt., of West Betchworth, Surrey, Moreton, West Hemsworth, and Ringstead, Dorset, Barton Stacey, Hampshire, etc., son and heir of John Husee, Knt., of Moreton and West Hemsworth, Dorset, Bridmore (in Berwick St. John), Wiltshire, etc., by Maud, daughter of Reynold de Haselden. He was born at Moreton, Dorset 7 July 1305. They had no issue. He was on the king’s service in 1332. He was summoned for military service 24 Dec. 1334 and 27 March 1335. He was summoned to Parliament from 20 Nov. 1348, 1 Jan. 1348/9, and 10 March 1348/9, by writs directed Rogero Huse or Husee, whereby he is held to have become Lord Husee. His wife, Margery, died 21 May 1361. SIR ROGER HUSEE, Lord Husee, died 1 Sept. 1361. Kimber & Johnson, Baronetage of England 1 (1771): 431–437 (sub St. Quintin) (author identifies Margery, wife of Herbert de Saint Quintin, as “daughter and coheir of Warin d’Insula, Lord Lisle.”). Banks, Dormant & Extinct Baronage of England 1 (1807): 412–414 (sub St. Quintin) (author identifies Margery, wife of Herbert de Saint Quintin, as “daughter and coheir of Warine de Lisle”). Poulson, Hist. & Antiqs. of the Seigniory of Holderness 1 (1840): 267 (author identifies Margery, wife of Herbert de Saint Quintin, as “daughter and co-heir of Margery daughter and co-heir of Warwick de Lisle.”). Banks, Baronies in Fee 1 (1844): 254–255 (sub Hoese), 307–308 (sub Marmyun of Witringham), 406–407 (sub St. Quintin) (St. Quintin ped.) (author identifies Margery, wife of Herbert de Saint Quintin, as “sister of Gerard de Lisle.”). Burke, Gen. Hist. of the Dormant, Abeyant, Forfeited & Extinct Peerages (1866): 469–470 (sub St. Quintin) (author identifies Margery, wife of Herbert de St. Quintin, as “sister of Gerard de Lisle, and dau. and co-heir of Warine de Lisle.”). C.C.R. 1346–1349 (1905): 227. C.C.R. 1349–1354 (1906): 283–284. C.C.R. 1360–1364 (1909): 194. VCH Berkshire 3 (1923): 124–133. C.P. 7 (1929): 12–14 (sub Husee). VCH Wiltshire 14 (1991): 215–216. VCH Yorkshire E.R. 7 (2002): 245–254, 306–321. Berkeley Castle Muniments, BCM/B/4/4/1 (available at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk). National Archives, SC 8/115/5745 (available at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk).
6. Lora de Saint Quintin, married (1st) Robert de Grey, Knt.
7. Elizabeth Grey, married Henry Fitz Hugh, K.G., 3rd Lord Fitz Hugh.
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Source: Online Discovery catalogue
Reference: BCM/B/4/4/1
Description:
Alice widow of Warin de Insula, knight, and Henry Tyeys, knight, her son. Thurs. after St. Hilary, 19 Edw. III
Alice has granted to Henry two parts of her manor of Shyrebourne, and the reversion of the third part held in dower by Margaret widow of Henry Tyeys for her life; to him and his issue, with remainder to Warin de Lile her son and his issue, and her own right heirs.
Witnesses: Aymer de Sancto Amando, Herbert de Seint Quintyn, Robert de Hildesle, knights, Gilbert de Shotesbrok, Robert Hoppegras.
At: Chilton Foliat.
[Please quote GC3126 at Berkeley Castle Muniments when requesting this file]
Date: [19 Jan. 1346]
Held by: Berkeley Castle Muniments, not available at The National Archives
Douglas Richardson
Sep 17, 2016, 7:06:46 PM9/17/16
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Below is an abstract of a fine dated 1353 for Sir Roger Husee, Lord Husee, and his wife, Margery de Lisle. One of the deforciants for the fine is Warin de Lisle, who I presume was Margery's nephew of that name.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
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Source: Chris Phillips' website: Some Notes on Medieval English Genealogy
available at http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/index.html
CP 25/1/287/44, number 482.
Link: Image of document at AALT
County: Surrey. Dorset. Wiltshire. Sussex.
Place: Westminster.
Date: One week from Holy Trinity, 27 Edward III [26 May 1353].
Parties: Roger Husee and Margery, his wife, querents, and Warin de Insula and Edmund de Chelrey[e], deforciants.
Property: The manors of Westbechesworth' and Heggecourt in the county of Surrey and the manors of Morton' and Ryngstede and 1 messuage, 1 carucate of land, 20 acres of meadow and 10 acres of wood in Pudele and the advowsons of the churches of the manors of Morton' and Ry[n]gstede in the county of Dorset and the manor of Northynton' and 1 messuage, 3 carucates of land, 100 acres of pasture, 300 acres of wood and 40 shillings of rent in Bredemere in the county of Wiltshire and 1 messuage, 1 carucate of land and 200 acres of wood in Estgrenestede and Worthe in the county of Sussex.
Action: Plea of covenant.
Agreement: Roger has acknowledged the manors, tenements and advowsons to be the right of Warin, as those which Warin and Edmund have of his gift.
For this: Warin and Edmund have granted to Roger and Margery the manors, tenements and advowsons and have rendered them to them in the court, to hold to Roger and Margery and the heirs of the body of Roger, of the chief lords for ever. In default of such heirs, successive remainders (1) to John Husee the elder and the heirs of his body, (2) to John Husee the younger and the heirs of his body and (3) to the right heirs of Roger.
Standardised forms of names. (These are tentative suggestions, intended only as a finding aid.)
Persons: Roger Hussey, Margery Hussey, Warin de Lisle, Edmund de Chelrey, John Hussey
Places: West Betchworth (in Dorking), Hedgecourt (in Horne), Moreton, Ringstead (in Osmington), Afpuddle, Tolpuddle or Turners Puddle, Norrington (in Alvediston), Bridmore (in Berwick St John), East Grinstead, Worth
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + +
available at http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/index.html
CP 25/1/287/44, number 482.
Link: Image of document at AALT
County: Surrey. Dorset. Wiltshire. Sussex.
Place: Westminster.
Date: One week from Holy Trinity, 27 Edward III [26 May 1353].
Parties: Roger Husee and Margery, his wife, querents, and Warin de Insula and Edmund de Chelrey[e], deforciants.
Property: The manors of Westbechesworth' and Heggecourt in the county of Surrey and the manors of Morton' and Ryngstede and 1 messuage, 1 carucate of land, 20 acres of meadow and 10 acres of wood in Pudele and the advowsons of the churches of the manors of Morton' and Ry[n]gstede in the county of Dorset and the manor of Northynton' and 1 messuage, 3 carucates of land, 100 acres of pasture, 300 acres of wood and 40 shillings of rent in Bredemere in the county of Wiltshire and 1 messuage, 1 carucate of land and 200 acres of wood in Estgrenestede and Worthe in the county of Sussex.
Action: Plea of covenant.
Agreement: Roger has acknowledged the manors, tenements and advowsons to be the right of Warin, as those which Warin and Edmund have of his gift.
For this: Warin and Edmund have granted to Roger and Margery the manors, tenements and advowsons and have rendered them to them in the court, to hold to Roger and Margery and the heirs of the body of Roger, of the chief lords for ever. In default of such heirs, successive remainders (1) to John Husee the elder and the heirs of his body, (2) to John Husee the younger and the heirs of his body and (3) to the right heirs of Roger.
Standardised forms of names. (These are tentative suggestions, intended only as a finding aid.)
Persons: Roger Hussey, Margery Hussey, Warin de Lisle, Edmund de Chelrey, John Hussey
Places: West Betchworth (in Dorking), Hedgecourt (in Horne), Moreton, Ringstead (in Osmington), Afpuddle, Tolpuddle or Turners Puddle, Norrington (in Alvediston), Bridmore (in Berwick St John), East Grinstead, Worth
John Watson
Sep 18, 2016, 1:21:06 AM9/18/16
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On Saturday, 17 September 2016 23:43:44 UTC+1, Douglas Richardson wrote:
... I can state with certainty that Margery de Lisle's husband, Sir Herbert de Saint Quintin, witnessed a deed of Margery's widowed mother Alice de Lisle and her brother, Henry le Tyeys, in 1346, as shown by a document copied below from the online Discovery catalogue. This deed is good supporting evidence for the published sources which identify Margery as a Lisle.
> Source: Online Discovery catalogue
>
> Reference: BCM/B/4/4/1
>
> Description:
> Alice widow of Warin de Insula, knight, and Henry Tyeys, knight, her son. Thurs. after St. Hilary, 19 Edw. III
>
> Alice has granted to Henry two parts of her manor of Shyrebourne, and the reversion of the third part held in dower by Margaret widow of Henry Tyeys for her life; to him and his issue, with remainder to Warin de Lile her son and his issue, and her own right heirs.
>
> Witnesses: Aymer de Sancto Amando, Herbert de Seint Quintyn, Robert de Hildesle, knights, Gilbert de Shotesbrok, Robert Hoppegras.
>
> At: Chilton Foliat.
>
> [Please quote GC3126 at Berkeley Castle Muniments when requesting this file]
> Date: [19 Jan. 1346]
> Held by: Berkeley Castle Muniments, not available at The National Archives
Dear Douglas,
Henry le Tyeys in the Berkley Castle deed that you quote was the younger son of Alice by Warin de Lisle, not her brother. He adopted his mother's name of Tyeys. He died on 1 August 1361 - see CIPM, xi, 338, no. 441.
Regards,
John
... I can state with certainty that Margery de Lisle's husband, Sir Herbert de Saint Quintin, witnessed a deed of Margery's widowed mother Alice de Lisle and her brother, Henry le Tyeys, in 1346, as shown by a document copied below from the online Discovery catalogue. This deed is good supporting evidence for the published sources which identify Margery as a Lisle.
> Source: Online Discovery catalogue
>
> Reference: BCM/B/4/4/1
>
> Description:
> Alice widow of Warin de Insula, knight, and Henry Tyeys, knight, her son. Thurs. after St. Hilary, 19 Edw. III
>
> Alice has granted to Henry two parts of her manor of Shyrebourne, and the reversion of the third part held in dower by Margaret widow of Henry Tyeys for her life; to him and his issue, with remainder to Warin de Lile her son and his issue, and her own right heirs.
>
> Witnesses: Aymer de Sancto Amando, Herbert de Seint Quintyn, Robert de Hildesle, knights, Gilbert de Shotesbrok, Robert Hoppegras.
>
> At: Chilton Foliat.
>
> [Please quote GC3126 at Berkeley Castle Muniments when requesting this file]
> Date: [19 Jan. 1346]
> Held by: Berkeley Castle Muniments, not available at The National Archives
Henry le Tyeys in the Berkley Castle deed that you quote was the younger son of Alice by Warin de Lisle, not her brother. He adopted his mother's name of Tyeys. He died on 1 August 1361 - see CIPM, xi, 338, no. 441.
Regards,
John
Andrew Lancaster
Sep 18, 2016, 4:53:36 AM9/18/16
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Dear Douglas
I wonder if I can ask for an update on your thoughts regarding evidence for the parentage "Lora, daughter by Walter de Fauconberge, Lord Fauconberge" who is mentioned in the below descent by you?
I have tried to summarize what I have found in sources, including your works, on her Wikitree profile, http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Fauconberg-5 and when you look at it all together it seems tenuous?
?The family she belongs too seems clear, but who was her father? I have seen him referred to as one of the Walters, William, and even Roger (Banks, Baronia Anglica Concentrata p.407 https://books.google.be/books?id=670sAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA407).
Best Regards
Andrew Lancaster
On Sunday, September 18, 2016 at 12:43:44 AM UTC+2, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> In answer to your question, the first seven generations of the descent from Sir Sampson Foliot down to Edward Carleton are as shown below.
[...]
I wonder if I can ask for an update on your thoughts regarding evidence for the parentage "Lora, daughter by Walter de Fauconberge, Lord Fauconberge" who is mentioned in the below descent by you?
I have tried to summarize what I have found in sources, including your works, on her Wikitree profile, http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Fauconberg-5 and when you look at it all together it seems tenuous?
?The family she belongs too seems clear, but who was her father? I have seen him referred to as one of the Walters, William, and even Roger (Banks, Baronia Anglica Concentrata p.407 https://books.google.be/books?id=670sAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA407).
Best Regards
Andrew Lancaster
On Sunday, September 18, 2016 at 12:43:44 AM UTC+2, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> In answer to your question, the first seven generations of the descent from Sir Sampson Foliot down to Edward Carleton are as shown below.
John Watson
Sep 18, 2016, 6:34:55 AM9/18/16
to
Lora was still living in 1346, when she was holding half a fee in Frome St. Quintin, Dorset. (Feudal Aids, ii, 55).
Regards,
John
Andrew Lancaster
Sep 19, 2016, 7:28:17 AM9/19/16
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Very interesting, and definitely would be a real change compared to "standard" versions, but there always has been something wobbly about the references to Lora's parentage. I see in a previous post that the BHO link for Martock in Somerset has been posted by Saba:
A P Baggs and R J E Bush, 'Parishes: Martock', in A History of the County of Somerset: Volume 4, ed. R W Dunning (London, 1978), pp. 78-109. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/som/vol4/pp78-109 [accessed 19 September 2016].
It shows the names Walter and Peter, similar to the names used by the Yorkshire family. This makes me think of a question I have about a claim made in secondary sources about this Lora. See for example:
Poulson, The History and Antiquities of the Seigniory of Holderness, p.266; https://archive.org/stream/pedigreesofcount03fost#page/n299/mode/1up
Banks https://books.google.be/books?id=670sAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA407
They say that a special dispensation was allowed for Lora's wedding to her St Quintin husband, because his grandmother was "Mary, daughter of Walter Fauconberg" of Skelton, which would have to be her father, grandfather or great grandfather (at least according to the Yorkshire version of her ancestry). I have never been able to trace such a dispensation, but I am not an expert at searching for those.
Regards
Andrew
A P Baggs and R J E Bush, 'Parishes: Martock', in A History of the County of Somerset: Volume 4, ed. R W Dunning (London, 1978), pp. 78-109. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/som/vol4/pp78-109 [accessed 19 September 2016].
It shows the names Walter and Peter, similar to the names used by the Yorkshire family. This makes me think of a question I have about a claim made in secondary sources about this Lora. See for example:
Poulson, The History and Antiquities of the Seigniory of Holderness, p.266; https://archive.org/stream/pedigreesofcount03fost#page/n299/mode/1up
Banks https://books.google.be/books?id=670sAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA407
They say that a special dispensation was allowed for Lora's wedding to her St Quintin husband, because his grandmother was "Mary, daughter of Walter Fauconberg" of Skelton, which would have to be her father, grandfather or great grandfather (at least according to the Yorkshire version of her ancestry). I have never been able to trace such a dispensation, but I am not an expert at searching for those.
Regards
Andrew
John Watson
Sep 19, 2016, 10:43:09 AM9/19/16
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For what it's worth. The oldest St. Quintin pedigree that I have come across is in Roger Gale's Registrum Honoris de Richmond (1722). The pedigree was probably drawn up in the late fifteenth century for a member of the FitzHugh family. The pedigree roundel shows Lora as "Lore fille de Walter Fauconbergh le seconde de Skelton par dispensation."
This is the first mention of the famous but very elusive dispensation. A dispensation from the Church for this marriage would definitely be required, but is unlikely to have been issued for such a close relationship. If Lora really was the daughter of Walter Faucomberge, "the second" of Skelton, i.e. the Walter who died in 1318, then they were first cousins, once removed. Their common ancestors are Walter de Faucomberge (d. 1304) and Agnes de Brus. There is no sign of any such dispensation in the papal registers or the registers of the contemporary archbishops of York.
If Lora was a Faucomberge, than there are other possibilities for her parentage not involving the baronial family of Skelton, such as the Faucomberge family of Cuckney in Nottinghamshire or those of Dorset.
Regards,
John
D. Spencer Hines
Sep 19, 2016, 12:08:58 PM9/19/16
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It's extraordinary how many Presidents of the United States seem to be
descended from Sir Sampson Foliot and Alice.
DSH
"[If] the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be
led, like sheep to the slaughter."
George Washington - Newburgh Address to Officers of the Continental Army, 15
March 1783, Headquarters, Newburgh, New York, United States of America
descended from Sir Sampson Foliot and Alice.
DSH
"[If] the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be
led, like sheep to the slaughter."
George Washington - Newburgh Address to Officers of the Continental Army, 15
March 1783, Headquarters, Newburgh, New York, United States of America
Douglas Richardson
Sep 20, 2016, 2:51:01 AM9/20/16
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My comments are interspersed below. DR
<On Monday, September 19, 2016 at 8:43:09 AM UTC-6, John Watson wrote:
< For what it's worth. The oldest St. Quintin pedigree that I have come across <is in Roger Gale's Registrum Honoris de Richmond (1722). The pedigree was <probably drawn up in the late fifteenth century for a member of the FitzHugh <family. The pedigree roundel shows Lora as "Lore fille de Walter Fauconbergh <le seconde de Skelton par dispensation."
I checked the book you cited but was unable to find the pedigree you mentioned. Do you have a page reference for this pedigree?
There is actually an older pedigree of the Fauconberge family published in Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum, 6(1) (1830): 268 (Hist. Hundatorum, Gisburne Priory) which can be viewed at the following weblink:
https://books.google.com/books?id=ZGKGPcFww8EC&pg=PA268&lpg=PA268
The pedigree which appears to be reliable indicates that Walter de Fauconberge, 2nd Lord Fauconberge, and his wife, Isabel de Roos, had eight children, including a daughter Laurette. The names Lora and Laurette were interchangeable in this time period.
While it would be highly unusual for a dispensation to be granted for a marriage between first cousins once removed, I've learned to keep an open mind about such matters.
< This is the first mention of the famous but very elusive dispensation. A <dispensation from the Church for this marriage would definitely be required, <but is unlikely to have been issued for such a close relationship. If Lora <really was the daughter of Walter Faucomberge, "the second" of Skelton, i.e. <the Walter who died in 1318, then they were first cousins, once removed. Their <common ancestors are Walter de Faucomberge (d. 1304) and Agnes de Brus. There <is no sign of any such dispensation in the papal registers or the registers of <the contemporary archbishops of York.
Not all dispensations were recorded in papal registers or in surviving episcopal registers. Some dispensations were only preserved in private family muniments. The inability to find a dispensation in papal or episcopal registers does not mean that such a record never existed.
< If Lora was a Faucomberge, than there are other possibilities for her <parentage not involving the baronial family of Skelton, such as the <Faucomberge family of Cuckney in Nottinghamshire or those of Dorset.
The pedigree published by Dugdale appears to confirm that Walter de Fauconberge, 2nd Lord Fauconberge, had a daughter named Laurette (or Lora). As such, I can accept the premise that she is the Lora de Fauconberge who married the elder Herbert de Saint Quintin, of Stanton St. Quintin, Wiltshire, as stated in the pedigree you cited in Roger Gale's Registrum Honoris de Richmond.
<On Monday, September 19, 2016 at 8:43:09 AM UTC-6, John Watson wrote:
< For what it's worth. The oldest St. Quintin pedigree that I have come across <is in Roger Gale's Registrum Honoris de Richmond (1722). The pedigree was <probably drawn up in the late fifteenth century for a member of the FitzHugh <family. The pedigree roundel shows Lora as "Lore fille de Walter Fauconbergh <le seconde de Skelton par dispensation."
There is actually an older pedigree of the Fauconberge family published in Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum, 6(1) (1830): 268 (Hist. Hundatorum, Gisburne Priory) which can be viewed at the following weblink:
https://books.google.com/books?id=ZGKGPcFww8EC&pg=PA268&lpg=PA268
The pedigree which appears to be reliable indicates that Walter de Fauconberge, 2nd Lord Fauconberge, and his wife, Isabel de Roos, had eight children, including a daughter Laurette. The names Lora and Laurette were interchangeable in this time period.
While it would be highly unusual for a dispensation to be granted for a marriage between first cousins once removed, I've learned to keep an open mind about such matters.
< This is the first mention of the famous but very elusive dispensation. A <dispensation from the Church for this marriage would definitely be required, <but is unlikely to have been issued for such a close relationship. If Lora <really was the daughter of Walter Faucomberge, "the second" of Skelton, i.e. <the Walter who died in 1318, then they were first cousins, once removed. Their <common ancestors are Walter de Faucomberge (d. 1304) and Agnes de Brus. There <is no sign of any such dispensation in the papal registers or the registers of <the contemporary archbishops of York.
< If Lora was a Faucomberge, than there are other possibilities for her <parentage not involving the baronial family of Skelton, such as the <Faucomberge family of Cuckney in Nottinghamshire or those of Dorset.
Douglas Richardson
Sep 20, 2016, 3:30:03 AM9/20/16
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Dear Newsgroup ~
In my previous post, I identified the Warin de Lisle who served as a feoffee in 1353 for Sir Roger Husee, Lord Husee, and his wife, Margery de Lisle, as being Margery de Lisle's young nephew of that name. However, my files indicate that Margery de Lisle also had a brother named Warin de Lisle, who I believe would be a better fit to be the feoffee in 1353.
Besides the two records which I've already posted which links Margery de Lisle and her two husbands to the Lisle family, I can add yet another record. My research indicates that Margery de Lisle's 1st husband, Sir Herbert de Saint Quintin, and their son, Herbert the younger, were engaged in the French campaign of 1346–7, where they fought in the retinue of Margery's brother, Sir Gerard de Lisle. See Wrottesley, Crécy & Calais (1898): 92, which may be viewed at the following weblink:
https://books.google.com/books?id=dcNnAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA92
In my previous post, I identified the Warin de Lisle who served as a feoffee in 1353 for Sir Roger Husee, Lord Husee, and his wife, Margery de Lisle, as being Margery de Lisle's young nephew of that name. However, my files indicate that Margery de Lisle also had a brother named Warin de Lisle, who I believe would be a better fit to be the feoffee in 1353.
Besides the two records which I've already posted which links Margery de Lisle and her two husbands to the Lisle family, I can add yet another record. My research indicates that Margery de Lisle's 1st husband, Sir Herbert de Saint Quintin, and their son, Herbert the younger, were engaged in the French campaign of 1346–7, where they fought in the retinue of Margery's brother, Sir Gerard de Lisle. See Wrottesley, Crécy & Calais (1898): 92, which may be viewed at the following weblink:
https://books.google.com/books?id=dcNnAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA92
Andrew Lancaster
Sep 20, 2016, 4:07:10 AM9/20/16
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On Tuesday, September 20, 2016 at 8:51:01 AM UTC+2, Douglas Richardson wrote:
Thank you for your post Douglas.
Concerning the name Lora/Laurette, does it not appear in several generations of the Fauconberg pedigree (like the names Walter and Peter)? To me it seems the Somerset family must have been cousins still in reasonably close connection and using similar names. Therefore the names are not helping much?
John mentioned that this Lora held land in Dorset, which is also an interesting lead.
Regards
Andrew
Thank you for your post Douglas.
Concerning the name Lora/Laurette, does it not appear in several generations of the Fauconberg pedigree (like the names Walter and Peter)? To me it seems the Somerset family must have been cousins still in reasonably close connection and using similar names. Therefore the names are not helping much?
John mentioned that this Lora held land in Dorset, which is also an interesting lead.
Regards
Andrew
Douglas Richardson
Sep 20, 2016, 4:33:36 AM9/20/16
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As a followup to my earlier post, I should point out that Sir Herbert de Saint Quintin witnessed a grant to his father-in-law, Sir Walter de Fauconberg, of Skelton, in 1309. See Clay, Yorkshire Deeds 8 (Yorkshire Arch. Soc. Recs. 102) (1940): 5 (charter of William de Grymmesby and Agnes his wife to Walter de Faucumberg of Skelton dated 1309), available at the following weblink:
https://books.google.com/books?id=CcrnM1UrC8UC&pg=PA5
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
https://books.google.com/books?id=CcrnM1UrC8UC&pg=PA5
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
John Watson
Sep 20, 2016, 4:46:01 AM9/20/16
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The St. Quintin (not Faucomberge) pedigree that I mentioned can be seen here:
https://books.google.com/books?id=YuZZAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
at the Google page number 75. Appendix, Table 5. I'm not sure what the actual page number is.
I accept what you say about the dispensation, but the fact that there is no record of it in any publication raises a bit of a red flag for me.
Regards,
John
Douglas Richardson
Sep 20, 2016, 4:47:47 AM9/20/16
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Dear Andrew ~
The early pedigree John Watson found in the Gale book identified Lora, wife of Herbert de Saint Quintin, as the daughter of Walter de Fauconberge, 2nd Lord Fauconberge. This identification was evidently based on a dispensation for Lora's marriage. Such a dispensation usually named the bride's father. So the identification of Lora's parentage in the Gale book should be correct.
Elswehere I located a pedigree which confirmed that Walter de Fauconbberge, 2nd Lord Fauconberge, had a daughter of that name.
And, I have found a deed which shows that Lora's husband, Sir Herbert de Saint Quintin, witnessed a deed involving Lora's father in 1309.
< John mentioned that this Lora held land in Dorset, which is also an <interesting lead.
The Saint Quintin family owned lands at Brandesburton, Yorkshire, Great Bradley (in Cookham), Berkshire, Frome St. Quintin, Dorset, and Stanton St. Quintin, Wiltshire.
If Lora de Fauconberge, widow of Sir Herbert de Saint Quintin, held lands in dower at Frome St. Quinton, Dorset in 1346, it would not be any indication of her own family heritage.
The early pedigree John Watson found in the Gale book identified Lora, wife of Herbert de Saint Quintin, as the daughter of Walter de Fauconberge, 2nd Lord Fauconberge. This identification was evidently based on a dispensation for Lora's marriage. Such a dispensation usually named the bride's father. So the identification of Lora's parentage in the Gale book should be correct.
Elswehere I located a pedigree which confirmed that Walter de Fauconbberge, 2nd Lord Fauconberge, had a daughter of that name.
And, I have found a deed which shows that Lora's husband, Sir Herbert de Saint Quintin, witnessed a deed involving Lora's father in 1309.
< John mentioned that this Lora held land in Dorset, which is also an <interesting lead.
If Lora de Fauconberge, widow of Sir Herbert de Saint Quintin, held lands in dower at Frome St. Quinton, Dorset in 1346, it would not be any indication of her own family heritage.
John Watson
Sep 20, 2016, 4:55:58 AM9/20/16
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At an inquisition held on 27 April 1349, Lora late the wife of Herbert de Sancto Quintino was holding 40a. land in Stokbruton, Dorset.
Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, vol. 9, Edward III (1916), 254, No. 268.
which I originally considered was some evidence that she was of the Dorset Faucomberge family. Unfortunately I can't confirm where Stokbruton is, or its previous owners, so at the moment its only a theory.
Regards,
John
Andrew Lancaster
Sep 20, 2016, 6:07:39 AM9/20/16
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Concerning Stokbruton, it is also mentioned in an IPM of her tenant it seems:
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol9/pp248-275
FWIW there is an East Burton near several places called Stoke around the modern village of Wool.
Also there is a Stoke Abbas in Dorset, and a Stoke Wake.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol9/pp248-275
FWIW there is an East Burton near several places called Stoke around the modern village of Wool.
Also there is a Stoke Abbas in Dorset, and a Stoke Wake.
Andrew Lancaster
Sep 20, 2016, 6:28:53 AM9/20/16
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"Crokerne Stoke, Crockerestok, Crokkerestokk [in Lydlinch parish], co. Dorset, 268"
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/vol9/pp499-517
There is a modern Crewkerne and a Lydlinch, but not near each other. Near Lydlinch is a Stock Gaylard.
Or there is Burton Bradstock?
Matt Tompkins
Sep 20, 2016, 11:33:06 AM9/20/16
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It does seem likely, though, from the facts that a man called Brut held land in both Crockern Stoke and Stokebruton, and the St Quintins held land in both Stokebruton and Lower Fifehead, immediately adjacent to Haselbury on the northeast (sometimes called Fifehead St Quintin), that Stokebruton might be an alternative but not frequently recorded form of the name of one of these four places.
Matt Tompkins
Douglas Richardson
Sep 23, 2016, 3:09:13 PM9/23/16
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Dear Newsgroup ~
In my first post in this thread, I presented evidence from a Common Pleas lawsuit which shows that in 1282 Alice, widow of Sir Sampson Foliot, sued Ralph de Lymesy regarding the third part of £11 rent in Ordeston [in Ashbury], Berkshire, which she claimed as dower.
Elsewhere VCH Berkshire 4 (1924): 523–528 states that two years later, Hardwell (in Compton Beauchamp), Berkshire was in the hands of Sir Sampson Foliot's grandson and heir, Henry le Tyeys. The following source is provided in a footnote for that statement: Assize R. 48, m. 3.
Because this lawsuit seemingly establishes that Henry le Tyeys was the grandson and heir of Sir Sampson Foliot, this past week I searched for the original record on the website, Anglo-American Legal Tradition [http://aalt.law.uh.edu/]. After a bit of sleuthing, I finally located the desired lawsuit at Justices Itinerant, JUST 1/48, image 461d. This lawsuit may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/JUST1/JUST1no48/bJUST1no48dorses/IMG_0461.htm
Because the lawsuit is a bit detailed, I asked Matthew Tompkins if he could provide me an abstract of the lawsuit. Dr. Tompkins kindly provided the following full English translation of the lawsuit:
Date: 1284
"Henry le Tyes claims against Henry de Sotbrock rents of £11 with appurtenances in Ordeston of which Sampson Folyot, grandfather (avus) of the said Henry le Tyes, whose heir he is, was seised in his demesne as of fee on the day on which etc.
And Henry de Sotbrok comes and they are agreed, and Henry le Tyes gives half a mark for licence to agree. And they agree such that the said Henry de Sottebrok acknowledges that he for himself and his heirs is bound to the said Henry le Tyes and his heirs for the payment of the said rents yearly from his manor of Ordeston, and he grants that whenever the said rents shall be in arrears the said Henry le Tyes may distrain against the entire said manor etc. And further he acknowledges that he owes him 10 marks, payable at Easter next following. And, unless he does it, etc [he agrees that the sheriff may take his and his heirs' lands and chattels in execution]." END OF QUOTE.
While VCH Berkshire implies this lawsuit indicates that Hardwell (in Compton Beauchamp), Berkshire was in the hands of Henry le Tyeys in 1284, the lawsuit actually concerns the same £11 rent in Ordeston [in Ashbury], Berkshire, which rent was the subject of the earlier 1282 lawsuit of Sir Sampson Foliot's widow, Alice. Hardwell, Berkshire isn't mentioned at all in the lawsuit!
Be that at it may, the 1284 lawsuit proves conclusively that Henry le Tyeys' grandfather [avus] was Sampson Foliot, as stated by VCH Berkshire.
I should note that VCH Berkshire 4 (1924): 503–512 refers to the place in question as Ordeston or Odstone. Chris Phillips has advised me offline that Odstone is the modern spelling of this place.
I might also point out that Henry Sotbrok/Sottebrook, the defendant in the 1284 lawsuit above, is the lineal male ancestor of Sir Robert Shottesbrook [died 1474], which Sir Robert was the 2nd husband of Edith Stourton. Edith Stourton in turn was the grandmother of Margaret Beaufort, mother of King Henry VII of England.
In closing, I wish to thank Dr. Tompkins and Chris Phillips for their kind assistance in this matter.
In my first post in this thread, I presented evidence from a Common Pleas lawsuit which shows that in 1282 Alice, widow of Sir Sampson Foliot, sued Ralph de Lymesy regarding the third part of £11 rent in Ordeston [in Ashbury], Berkshire, which she claimed as dower.
Elsewhere VCH Berkshire 4 (1924): 523–528 states that two years later, Hardwell (in Compton Beauchamp), Berkshire was in the hands of Sir Sampson Foliot's grandson and heir, Henry le Tyeys. The following source is provided in a footnote for that statement: Assize R. 48, m. 3.
Because this lawsuit seemingly establishes that Henry le Tyeys was the grandson and heir of Sir Sampson Foliot, this past week I searched for the original record on the website, Anglo-American Legal Tradition [http://aalt.law.uh.edu/]. After a bit of sleuthing, I finally located the desired lawsuit at Justices Itinerant, JUST 1/48, image 461d. This lawsuit may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT4/JUST1/JUST1no48/bJUST1no48dorses/IMG_0461.htm
Because the lawsuit is a bit detailed, I asked Matthew Tompkins if he could provide me an abstract of the lawsuit. Dr. Tompkins kindly provided the following full English translation of the lawsuit:
Date: 1284
"Henry le Tyes claims against Henry de Sotbrock rents of £11 with appurtenances in Ordeston of which Sampson Folyot, grandfather (avus) of the said Henry le Tyes, whose heir he is, was seised in his demesne as of fee on the day on which etc.
And Henry de Sotbrok comes and they are agreed, and Henry le Tyes gives half a mark for licence to agree. And they agree such that the said Henry de Sottebrok acknowledges that he for himself and his heirs is bound to the said Henry le Tyes and his heirs for the payment of the said rents yearly from his manor of Ordeston, and he grants that whenever the said rents shall be in arrears the said Henry le Tyes may distrain against the entire said manor etc. And further he acknowledges that he owes him 10 marks, payable at Easter next following. And, unless he does it, etc [he agrees that the sheriff may take his and his heirs' lands and chattels in execution]." END OF QUOTE.
While VCH Berkshire implies this lawsuit indicates that Hardwell (in Compton Beauchamp), Berkshire was in the hands of Henry le Tyeys in 1284, the lawsuit actually concerns the same £11 rent in Ordeston [in Ashbury], Berkshire, which rent was the subject of the earlier 1282 lawsuit of Sir Sampson Foliot's widow, Alice. Hardwell, Berkshire isn't mentioned at all in the lawsuit!
Be that at it may, the 1284 lawsuit proves conclusively that Henry le Tyeys' grandfather [avus] was Sampson Foliot, as stated by VCH Berkshire.
I should note that VCH Berkshire 4 (1924): 503–512 refers to the place in question as Ordeston or Odstone. Chris Phillips has advised me offline that Odstone is the modern spelling of this place.
I might also point out that Henry Sotbrok/Sottebrook, the defendant in the 1284 lawsuit above, is the lineal male ancestor of Sir Robert Shottesbrook [died 1474], which Sir Robert was the 2nd husband of Edith Stourton. Edith Stourton in turn was the grandmother of Margaret Beaufort, mother of King Henry VII of England.
In closing, I wish to thank Dr. Tompkins and Chris Phillips for their kind assistance in this matter.
Bronwen Edwards
Sep 23, 2016, 4:35:18 PM9/23/16
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identify Margery as a Lisle.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
I take it, then, that Margery had a sister, Alice, d. bef 20 Oct 1330, who was the wife of John, 3rd Lord Grey of Codnor? Would this be correct? Thank you.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
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