Thomas Spring, of Lavenham - Prince William ancestor

[Leo]

Thomas Spring is an ancestor of both Prince Charles and Lady Diana Spencer

Thomas Spring, of Lavenham, Suffolk, was a clothier
He died 7 September 1486
He is in Paget's book on the ancestors of Prince Charles as P 57181
sadly no parents.

I think I have two wives for him, but am not even certain in which order he married Anne Appleton and Anne King. I have a remark where I wonder whether Anne Appleton is really Anne King and also whether Anne Appleton is really Margaret Appleton.

By Anne/Margaret Appleton i have two sons Thomas and John. John is the ancestor of Prince Charles.

By Anne King I have a daughter Anne Spring who married Sir Thomas Jermyn and they are ancestors of Lady Diana Spencer.

Can anyone untangle this for me?

With many thanks,
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

[Sjostrom]

prince William has yet a wealth of ancestors in Albania
- who are not yet in Genealogics.

[Hal Bradley]

Leo,

It looks like you are confusing two different Thomas Springs. The Thomas
Spring who died in 1486 was married to Margaret Appleton, dau. of John &
Margaret (Welling) Appleton. He had at least five children: Thomas, James,
William, Marian and Cecily.

Thomas Spring's grandson of the same name (will dated 13 Jun 1523, proved 3
July 1523) married twice. His first wife was Anne King. His second wife was
Alice, often called Alice Appleton. Gary B. Robert wrote an article in TAG
v. 55 (Apr 1979) on the English origins of John Spring. Of Alice he says,
"Alice is usually called Alice Appleton, daughter of Thomas Appleton of
Waldingfield Parva. No such Alice Appleton appears in the cited Appleton
sources, however, and she has obviously been confused with her husband's
grandmother."

By Anne King, Thomas Spring had a daughter Anne, married to Thomas Jermyn
and a daughter Rose. He also had two sons, John and Robert. By his second
wife Alice, he had a daughter Bridget who married Aubrey de Vere, son of
John, Earl of Oxford (d. 1540).

Hal Bradley

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[John Higgins]

On Mar 6, 7:41 pm, "Hal Bradley" <hw.brad...@verizon.net> wrote:
> Leo,
>
> It looks like you are confusing two different Thomas Springs. The Thomas
> Spring who died in 1486 was married to Margaret Appleton, dau. of John &
> Margaret (Welling) Appleton. He had at least five children: Thomas, James,
> William, Marian and Cecily.
>
> Thomas Spring's grandson of the same name (will dated 13 Jun 1523, proved 3
> July 1523) married twice. His first wife was Anne King. His second wife was
> Alice, often called Alice Appleton. Gary B. Robert wrote an article in TAG
> v. 55 (Apr 1979) on the English origins of John Spring. Of Alice he says,
> "Alice is usually called Alice Appleton, daughter of Thomas Appleton of
> Waldingfield Parva. No such Alice Appleton appears in the cited Appleton
> sources, however, and she has obviously been confused with her husband's
> grandmother."
>
> By Anne King, Thomas Spring had a daughter Anne, married to Thomas Jermyn
> and a daughter Rose. He also had two sons, John and Robert. By his second
> wife Alice, he had a daughter Bridget who married Aubrey de Vere, son of
> John, Earl of Oxford (d. 1540).
>
> Hal Bradley
>

I see that the TAG article by Gary Boyd Roberts does say that Aubrey
de Vere's wife was Bridget, daughter of Thomas Spring "the rich
clothier" (d. 1523) by hia 2nd wife Anne (d. 1538). But GBR doesn't
state a specific source for this parentage of Bridget, and I wonder
what the evidence is for it. I ask because there seems to be
contradictory evidence in Joan Corder's 1981 edition of the 1561
visitation of Suffolk (HSP, new series, vol. 2) - which is a pretty
well researched effort.

Corder says that Thomas Spring and his 2nd wife Anne did have a
daughter Bridget who is mentioned in both of her parents' wills. But
Corder says this Bridget was married 1st to William Ernley of Cookham,
Sussex, and 2nd to Sir Henry Hussee of Slynford, Sussex. Her will, as
"Dame Bridget Husse" was proved in 1557. In particular, Corder says
that this Bridget was unmarried when her mother Anne made her will in
April 1538 but married when Anne added a codicil in August of that
year. There is no mention of a marriage to Audrey de Vere.

I see that some of the 19th century Burke's publications (not very
reliable0 say that Aubrey de Vere married "Margaret", daughter of Sir
John Spring. This seems to be what Leo has in his database, but I
can't find any eveidence to support this.

Any thoughts on this?

[Hal Bradley]

John,

Good catch. I would give the precedence to Corder in this instance. Musketts
"Suffolk Manorial Families" also says this Bridget m. Wm. Ernley. Thanks for
the reference to Corder. Will have to look at it the next time I get to a
library and see if I can flesh out Roberts' source for the Vere connection.

Hal Bradley


> -----Original Message-----
> From: gen-mediev...@rootsweb.com [mailto:gen-medieval-

[John Higgins]

On Mar 6, 10:32 pm, John Higgins <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:


> I see that the TAG article by Gary Boyd Roberts does say that Aubrey

> de Vere's wife was Bridget, daughter of ThomasSpring"the rich

> clothier" (d. 1523) by hia 2nd wife Anne (d. 1538).  But GBR doesn't
> state a specific source for this parentage of Bridget, and I wonder
> what the evidence is for it.  I ask because there seems to be
> contradictory evidence in Joan Corder's 1981 edition of the 1561
> visitation of Suffolk (HSP, new series, vol. 2) - which is a pretty
> well researched effort.
>

> Corder says that ThomasSpringand his 2nd wife Anne did have a

> daughter Bridget who is mentioned in both of her parents' wills.  But
> Corder says this Bridget was married 1st to William Ernley of Cookham,
> Sussex, and 2nd to Sir Henry Hussee of Slynford, Sussex.  Her will, as
> "Dame Bridget Husse" was proved in 1557.  In particular, Corder says
> that this Bridget was unmarried when her mother Anne made her will in
> April 1538 but married when Anne added a codicil in August of that
> year.  There is no mention of a marriage to Audrey de Vere.
>
> I see that some of the 19th century Burke's publications (not very
> reliable0 say that Aubrey de Vere married "Margaret", daughter of Sir

> JohnSpring.  This seems to be what Leo has in his database, but I

> can't find any eveidence to support this.
>
> Any thoughts on this?

More information on the Springs of Lavenham:

First, a correction: In my post above, I mis-typed the name of the
second wife of Thomas Springer of Lavenham (d. 1523) as Anne, but it
should be Alice. Anne was the first wife and Alice was the second.

I cited Joan Corder’s 1981 edition of the 1561 visitation of Suffolk
for information on the children of Thomas Spring “the rich
clothier” (d. 1523). Among the sources cited by Corder for the Spring
family are Joseph Jackson Howard’s 1866 edition of the same visitation
(available here: https://familysearch.org/eng/library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset.asp?display=titledetails&titleno=214688),
as well as a 1924 book by Barbara McClenaghan, “The Springs of
Lavenham and the Suffolk Cloth Trade in the XV and XVI Centuries”.
I’ve been able to obtain a copy of this book, which is well-researched
and well-documented. It provides considerable information on the
Spring family and in some key instances disagrees with the conclusions
of Gary Boyd Roberts in his 1979 TAG article.

With respect to Bridget Spring, daughter of Thomas Spring of Lavenham
(by his 2nd wife Alice) and supposed wife of Aubrey de Vere,
McClenaghan provides evidences from wills and other sources that
Bridget married 1st William Ernley and 2nd Sir Henry Husse – and not
Aubrey de Vere. She speculates that perhaps a marriage between the
two families was considered and this was translated into a family
tradition which was carried on over the centuries. I cannot find any
satisfactory evidence of who the wife of Aubrey de Vere actually was.

The Springs of Lavenham are recorded in the 1561 visitation of
Suffolk (3 editions: Corder and Jackson mentioned above, and also an
1882 edition by Walter C. Metcalfe) and in the 1612 visitation (also
published in the Metcalfe volume). In both cases, the pedigree starts
with Thomas Spring “the rich clothier” (d. 1523). Both McClenaghan
and Robets (in the TAG article) propose a few earlier generations.
Although they both start from the same source (a 1908 manuscript
pedigree of the family by Francis Spring), McClenaghan reaches a
different conclusion based on her study of the wills of the family.

Roberts gives this sequence of the early Springs in his TAG article:
Thomas Spring (d. 1440), m. Agnes NN
Thomas Spring (will dated 29 mar 1486 proved 12 Sept 1486), m.
Margaret Appleton
Thomas Spring (d. 1510, m. Alice NN (d. 20 Jan 1512)
Thomas Spring (will dated 13 June 1523, proved 3 July 1524 [sic – s/b
1524]), m. twice

McClenaghan says that the last Thomas Spring was the son, not the
grandson, of Thomas Spring and Margaret Appleton, based on a provision
of his will described in his IPM. There he asks for prayers to be
said forever (!) in a chantrey chapel he funded in the Lavenham church
“for the soules of the said Thomas Spryng and Alice my wif, Thomas
Spryng and Margaret his wif, father and mother to me”.

This seems pretty conclusive as to the parentage of the last Thomas
Spring. Interestingly, however, there was a Thomas Spring who died in
1510 and had a wife Alice who died in 1512. Their memorial brass in
the Lavenham church is documented by Robert Reyce in “The Breviary of
Suffolk” (1618, published 1902). It seems likely that some prior
genealogist felt it necessary to fit this couple into the family tree,
without being aware of the language in the 1523 IPM.

Jackson’s 1866 edition of the 1561 visitation includes a considerable
amount of additional material on the family, including wills, parish
registers, and an extended pedigree of the family (not just the
original visitation pedigree). His pedigree agrees with McClenaghan’s
conlsuion regarding the parents and grandparents of Thomas Spring (d.
1523) – although he erroneously assigns Thomas’s daughter Bridget to
be the wife of Aubrey de Vere. Oddly, howver, his transcription of
the 1523 will does not include the language cited above by
McClenaghan, which she apparently found in the record of the IPM.

Clearly some of this information is at variance with the TAG article
by Gary Boyd Roberts. Any thoughts on this would be welcomed.

[Wjhonson]

What about this Parris, relict of Bullin ?

http://books.google.com/books?id=XPc7AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA73

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[Wjhonson]

This will with codicil of Alice Spring is printed here

http://books.google.com/books?id=XPc7AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA68#v=onepage&q&f=true

-----Original Message-----
From: John Higgins <jhigg...@yahoo.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Fri, Mar 22, 2013 12:05 pm

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[John Higgins]

> (available here:https://familysearch.org/eng/library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset.asp...),

This morning I received an offline response to my post from a
correspondent who pointed out this partial Spring pedigree in vol. 1
p. 73 of Muskett's Suffolk Manorial Families. The correspondent also
noted that Muskett later makes a correction to this pedigree (on p.
335), giving the name of Thomas Spring's first wife as Margaret, not
Alice, Appleton. This correction is supported by the 1504 will
(proved 1508) of Margaret's brother Thomas Appletoin who referes to
his sister Margaret Spring and his nephew Thomas Spring.

I should also mention that the McClenaghan book I cited yesterday
identifies the wife of Thomas Spring (d. 1486) as Margaret but without
giving a surname. McClenaghan's source for this was the 1908 pedigree
by Francis Spring, which was also used by Gary Boyd Roberts for his
TAG article. It's thus unclear how GBR concluded that this Margaret
was an Appleton and thus dismissed the idea that her son Thomas
(identified by GBR as her grandson) also married an Appleton.

All of this, together with the points mentioned in my previous post,
seems to cast considerable doubt about GBR's construction of the early
Spring pedigree in the TAG article. This in turn may necessitate some
reconsideration of the connection of the immigrant John Spring of
Waterton to this family - which was the main point of GBR's article.
Any comments?

[John Higgins]

On Mar 23, 9:57 am, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> This will with codicil of Alice Spring is printed here
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=XPc7AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA68#v=onepage&q&f=true
>

Ummm...not exactly.

The note on this page states this is "a condensed form". If you had
looked at the cited source - which is the same source I cited earlier
in this thread, with a URL - you'd see that it's MUCH condensed, from
four pages down to less than one.

[Wjhonson]

http://books.google.com/books?id=ZxANnBnHKBQC&dq=thomas%20appleton%201508&pg=PA329#v=onepage&q=thomas%20appleton%201508&f=true

Thomas Appleton with the 1508 Will

-----Original Message-----
From: John Higgins <jhigg...@yahoo.com>
To: gen-medieval <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>

[John Higgins]

On Mar 23, 12:39 pm, Wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> http://books.google.com/books?id=ZxANnBnHKBQC&dq=thomas%20appleton%20...

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You missed the will itself, which is dated 1504 (not 1508) and is on
pp. 323-3 of the same source.

[Wjhonson]

Dated 1504, proved 1508 (PCC 11 Bennett)
I would suggest that he rather died closer to 1508

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[dever...@gmail.com]

Wasn't the Bridget who married Aubrey de Vere was Bridget Gibbons, daughter of Sir Anthhony Gibbons (various spellings) and Alice Markham