New Magna Carta Ancestry for Ralph Lumley, lst Lord Lumley
douglasr...@hotmail.com
Lumley, died 1400. The line is based on original research. The
following immigrants descend from Sir Ralph Lumley:
1. Charles Calvert
2. John Fenwick
3. William Poole
4. Richard Saltonstall
5. Maria Johanna Somerset
6. Olive (Welby) Farwell
7. Thomas Wingfield
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
- - - - - - -
1. Richard de Clare, 3rd Earl of Hertford, Magna Carta Surety, died
1217. He married Amice of Gloucester, daughter and heiress of William
Fitz Robert, 2nd Earl of Gloucester.
2. Gilbert de Clare, 4th Earl of Hertford, Magna Carta Surety, died
1230. He married Isabel Marshall, daughter of William Marshall, 3rd
Earl of Pembroke.
3. Isabel de Clare, born 1236, died before 1275. She married Sir
Robert de Brus, "the Competitor," of Anandale in Scotland, and Writtle,
Essex, died 1295, son and heir of Robert de Brus, of Anandale, Writtle,
etc., by Isabel, daughter of David, Earl of Huntingdon.
4. Isabel de Brus, married Sir John Fitz Marmaduke, of Horden,
Lamesley, Ravensholme and Eighton, co. Durham, Sheriff of North Durham,
died 1310, son and heir of Marmaduke Fitz Geoffrey, of Horden and
Lamesley.
5. Mary Fitz Marmaduke, died 1298. She married (lst) Sir Robert de
Lumley, of Lumley, co. Durham, died c. 1279; (2nd) Lawrence de
Seymour. She was sole heiress to her brother, Richard Fitz Marmaduke.
6. Sir Robert de Lumley, son and heir, died 1325. He married Lucy de
Thweng, daughter of Marmaduke de Thwenge, by Isabel, daughter of Sir
William de Roos, of Ingmanthorpe, co. York.
7. Sir Marmaduke de Lumley, of Lumley, co. Durham, born 1314, died
1365. He married Margaret de Holand.
8. Sir Ralph Lumley, of Lumley, co. Durham, lst Lord Lumley, born about
1361, died 1400. He married Alianor Neville, daughter of John Neville,
Lord Neville, of Raby, co. Durham, by his lst wife, Maud, daughter of
Henry de Percy, 2nd Lord Percy.
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Sutliff
<douglasr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:92vrpc$glb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> The line below is a new Magna Carta line for Sir Ralph Lumley, lst Lord
> Lumley, died 1400. The line is based on original research. The
> following immigrants descend from Sir Ralph Lumley:
>
> Lumley, of Lumley, co. Durham, died c. 1279; (2nd) Lawrence de
> Seymour. She was sole heiress to her brother, Richard Fitz Marmaduke.
>
CP VIII:268 has Robert of this generation dying bef. 13 Jul 1308; it is his
father who died circa 1279.
Also, if the identity of Petronell Chudleigh as daughter of Sir James
Chudleigh and Margaret Stourton has held, then Oliver Manwaring would be
another immigrant to share this descent.
Sir Ralph Lumley = Alianor de Neville
Katherine Lumley = Sir John Chidiock
Margaret Chidiock = William Stourton
Margaret (or Mary) Stourton = Sir James Chudleigh
Petronell Chudleigh = Anthony Pollard
Joanna Pollard = Nicholas Esse
Richard Esse = Prudence Rudgeley
Henry Esse = Loveday Moyle
Prudence Esse = Oliver Mainwaring
Oliver Manwaring the immigrant
douglasr...@hotmail.com
I'll check Complete Peerage tomorrow at the Family History Library
regarding the death date of Robert de Lumley, husband of Mary Fitz
Marmaduke.
I failed to mention in my original post that Mary Fitz Marmaduke's
mother, Isabel de Brus, wife of Sir John Fitz Marmaduke, is a new child
for Sir Robert de Brus, the Competitor.
Since you brought it up, I'm curious to know the evidence for Pernel
Chudleigh's parentage? Is this line sound?
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
In article <t3S46.1116$3t2....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
Leo van de Pas
From: <douglasr...@hotmail.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 12:26 PM
Subject: Re: New Magna Carta Ancestry for Ralph Lumley, lst Lord Lumley
<snip>
> I failed to mention in my original post that Mary Fitz Marmaduke's
> mother, Isabel de Brus, wife of Sir John Fitz Marmaduke, is a new child
> for Sir Robert de Brus, the Competitor.
<snip>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
In The Complete Peerage VIII pages 267 and 268,
Robert de Lumley, knight, was aged 26 and more at his mother's death and had
livery of her inheritance etc.
He married Mary, daughter of John FitzMarmaduke, of Stranton, by Isabel,
daughter of Robert de Bruce (footnote b)
Footnote b.He would appear to have been Robert the Competitor.
See Ca.Close Rolls 1389-1392 p.418, where the descent is set out.
Douglas did you find additional information that confirmed this?
Leo van de Pas
Sutliff
The Lumley-Chidiock-Stourton link can be found under [FitzPayn] in CP. The
reference may be V:462. Petronell is definitely the weak link to make this
all fall into place.
<douglasr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:930u1m$etq$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
douglasr...@hotmail.com
Yes, I did. The additional information can be found in the Victoria
County History of Durham. Comparing the records cited there and in the
Complete Peerage citation sub Lumley which you found, it is clear that
Isabel, wife of Sir John Fitz Marmaduke, was the daughter of Robert de
Brus, the Competitor. Strangely though, Isabel's existence seems to
have escaped the notice of all Brus/Bruce historians.
Best always, Douglas Richardson
Robert S Baxter
Douglas,
The Scots Peerage, ed Paul, under Carrick, v II, p 433, says Isobel the
daughter of the Competitor is said to have married Thomas Randolph, the
Great Chamberlain of Scotland(CP says the same under Moray), and Eric the
King of Norway as his second wife.
Might the Isobel who married FitzMarmaduke(Thweng?) been a sister of the
Competitor? I know of two John FitzMarmaduke de Thwengs, one son of Isobel
de Ros and the other son of Lucy de Brus, both sons of different Marmadukes,
who happen to be father and son.
Regards,
Bob
douglasr...@hotmail.com
I can't vouch for Isabel, wife of Thomas Randolph. The documentation
for the parentage of Isabel de Brus, wife of Sir John Fitz Marmaduke,
however, appears to be quite good. When I have a chance this week or
next, I'll pull the evidence that VCH Durham and Complete Peerage
cites. The best evidence is Calendar of Close Rolls, 1389-1392, pg.
428, which is a recital of the devolution of the manor of Stranton, co.
Durham from Robert de Brus through his daughter Isabel down to the
Lumley family.
As for the chronology, I see that Isabel de Clare, wife of Robert de
Brus, was born in 1226 and married in 1240. Sir Robert de Lumley who
married her granddaughter, Mary Fitz Marmaduke, was born about 1272.
That looks very good.
The Fitz Marmadukes and Thwengs appear to have been branches of the
same family, as they both bore the same arms. In an odd twist of
events, the Lumley family intermarried with both families and
eventually adopted the Fitz Marmaduke/Thweng arms.
Isabel de Brus' husband, Sir John Fitz Marmaduke, was the son of
Marmaduke Fitz Geoffrey, of Horden and Lamesley, co. Durham. Following
Isabel's death, Sir John Fitz Marmaduke married Ida, widow of Robert de
Neville.
I trust that answers your questions.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
In article <006101c07659$b1461160$64dc...@msy.bellsouth.net>,
Leo van de Pas
Another thought, could Isabel de Bruce, Mrs FitzMarmaduke, be illegitimate?
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: <douglasr...@hotmail.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
> E-mail: royala...@msn.com
>
>
> In article <006101c07659$b1461160$64dc...@msy.bellsouth.net>,
> rsba...@bellsouth.net (Robert S Baxter) wrote:
> >
> > Douglas,
> >
> > The Scots Peerage, ed Paul, under Carrick, v II, p 433, says Isobel
> the
> > daughter of the Competitor is said to have married Thomas Randolph,
> the
> > Great Chamberlain of Scotland(CP says the same under Moray), and Eric
> the
> > King of Norway as his second wife.
> >
> > Might the Isobel who married FitzMarmaduke(Thweng?) been a sister of
> the
> > Competitor? I know of two John FitzMarmaduke de Thwengs, one son of
> Isobel
> > de Ros and the other son of Lucy de Brus, both sons of different
> Marmadukes,
> > who happen to be father and son.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
>
>
douglasr...@hotmail.com
The evidence clearly shows that Robert de Brus settled the manor of
Stranton, co. Durham on his daughter, Isabel, and her husband, Sir John
Fitz Marmaduke. There can be no mistaking the identity of the Robert
de Brus involved, as following Robert's death, his widow Christian
filed a suit regarding the manor of Stranton. For some reason,
Isabel's existence has been overlooked.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
In article <00cd01c0766a$890fd120$5db83bcb@leo>,
"Leo van de Pas" <leov...@iinet.net.au> wrote:
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: <douglasr...@hotmail.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, January 05, 2001 12:53 AM
Subject: Re: Isabel de Bruce, a new find
> Hi Leo:
>
> The evidence clearly shows that Robert de Brus settled the manor of
> Stranton, co. Durham on his daughter, Isabel, and her husband, Sir John
> Fitz Marmaduke. There can be no mistaking the identity of the Robert
> de Brus involved, as following Robert's death, his widow Christian
> filed a suit regarding the manor of Stranton. For some reason,
> Isabel's existence has been overlooked.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
I feel a bit confused, who is Christian, the widow of Robert Bruce?
I have, and it might well be wrong :
Robert Bruce, Lord of Annandale
died 1241
married Isabella of Huntingdon
their son
Robert "the competitor" Lord of Annandale
1210-1294
married May 1240 Isabella de Clare
parents of Isabel (?) and
Robert Bruce, Lord of Annandale
1253-1304
married Margaret, heiress of Carrick
parents of
Robert I the Bruce
King of Scots.
Where does Christian fit in?
Leo van de Pas
Perth, Western Australia
MWelch8442
Robert the Competitor had two wives the first being Isabel De Clare and his
second wife being Christian d'Ireby dau of William d'Ireby. Robert was suppose
to have two daughters. Isabel who married John Fitz Marmaduke the other I'll
have to look up. I think the Isobel that married the Randolph was the sister of
King Robert de Brus. I hope this helps. Mike Welch
douglasr...@hotmail.com
Sir Robert de Brus, the Competitor, of Annandale, Scotland, Writtle,
Essex, etc., had two wives. He married (first) in May 1240 to Isabel
de Clare, daughter of Gilbert de Clare, Earl of Hertford. She died
after 10 July 1264. He married (second) before 10 May 1275, to
Christian d'Ireby, widow successively of Sir Thomas de Lascelles, and
Sir Adam de Gesemuth, and daughter and heiress of Sir William d'Ireby.
Sir Robert de Brus died in 1295. His widow Christian died in 1305 s.p.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
In article <001301c07677$df066d20$a6b43bcb@leo>,
"Leo van de Pas" <leov...@iinet.net.au> wrote:
D. Spencer Hines
not Christian [Christina] d'Ireby.
Likewise, Sir William de Ireby, her father.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"The final happiness of man consists in the contemplation of truth....
This is sought for its own sake, and is directed to no other end beyond
itself." Saint Thomas Aquinas, [1224/5-1274] "Summa Contra Gentiles"
[c.1258-1264]
"Populus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur. Odi profanum vulgus et arceo."
Quintus Aurelius Stultus [33 B.C. - 42 A.D.]
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<douglasr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:932na6$upe$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Suzanne Doig
wrote:
>The Scots Peerage, ed Paul, under Carrick, v II, p 433, says Isobel the
>daughter of the Competitor is said to have married Thomas Randolph, the
>Great Chamberlain of Scotland(CP says the same under Moray), and Eric the
>King of Norway as his second wife.
At first glance, there would seem to be some chronological problems
with identifying both of these women as the same Isobel Bruce,
daughter of Robert VII Bruce and Marjory of Carrick. They seem to be
about a generation apart. We can now also add the wife of Sir John
FitzMarmaduke to the lengthening list of women called Isobel Bruce.
1) Thomas II Randolph, 1st Earl of Moray, supposedly a nephew of King
Robert Bruce & therefore a grandson of Robert VII (is this
relationship expressed in contemporary mss?), is said to have been an
adult by 26 December 1292.
2) Most sources put the d.o.b. of Isabel, undoubted daughter of Robert
VII Bruce and Marjory of Carrick, at c.1275, and she was married to
King Erik c.1293. She died in 1358, and so would have been very old
indeed if she had a son born c.1276 at the latest (she was about 83
even by the later birth date).
I can see at least three possible conclusions:
a) Assuming firstly that the Randolph-Bruce connection is sound:
Isabel Bruce, mother of Thomas II Randolph, was by a very early and
unknown first marriage of Robert VII or was an illegitimate child of
his early adulthood; or
b) Isabel, mother of Thomas II Randolph, is the same as Isabel, wife
of Sir John FitzMarmaduke and daughter of Robert VI Bruce the
Competitor (does anyone have a date of death for Thomas I Randolph,
the Great Chamberlain of Scotland?), making Thomas II the nephew of
Robert VII, cousin of the king, and half-brother of Mary
FitzMarmaduke.
(The major difficulty with this would appear to be the transmission of
Stranton from Sir John FitzMarmaduke's wife to the Lumleys, not the
Randolphs); or
c) (Less likely?) Robert VI Bruce had a second daughter called Isabel,
possibly illegitimate or by a second marriage, who married Thomas I
Randolph.
Demolitions and/or additions welcomed. :-)
Suzanne
* - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - *
Suzanne Doig - remove *!* from reply-to address
http://www.geocities.com/smdnz/
U...@aol.com
douglasr...@hotmail.com writes:
> 4. Isabel de Brus, married Sir John Fitz Marmaduke, of Horden,
> Lamesley, Ravensholme and Eighton, co. Durham, Sheriff of North Durham,
> died 1310, son and heir of Marmaduke Fitz Geoffrey, of Horden and
> Lamesley.
>
> 5. Mary Fitz Marmaduke, died 1298. She married (lst) Sir Robert de
> Lumley, of Lumley, co. Durham, died c. 1279; (2nd) Lawrence de
> Seymour. She was sole heiress to her brother, Richard Fitz Marmaduke.
>
>
Should not Mary and Richard be Fitz John instead of Fitz Marmaduke??
Always optimistic--Dave
A Tsar Is Born
"Robert S Baxter" <rsba...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:006101c07659$b1461160$64dc...@msy.bellsouth.net...
He's got her mixed up with Isobel, sister of King Robert I, who DID marry
Erik I of Norway (and died without issue.)
Jean Coeur de Lapin
atsar...@hotmail.com
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> Since you brought it up, I'm curious to know the evidence for Pernel
> Chudleigh's parentage? Is this line sound?
No.
taf