Ancestry of William de Warenne
Todd A. Farmerie
> According to LDS and Royalty For Commoners, his ancestry is as follows:
Neither of which are sources to be trusted.
> 1. William De Warenne, Seigneur Of Varennes, Earl Of Surrey.
> b. abt. 1055, d. 1088
> m. Gundred, probably daughter Of Gerbod? Her brother was Gerbod, Earl of
> Chester. The Anglo-Saxon noble heritage would suggest a connection to
> Alfred the Great.
The connection to Alfred the Great derives fromthe mistaken belief
that she was daughter of William the Conqueror and his wife Matilda
of Flanders (a descendant of Alfred). When it became obvious that
William was not the father, a hypothetical first marriage was invented
for Matilda, for which there is no historical basis. With the realization
that this is false, there is no reason to think that Gundred had any
Anglo-Saxon blood at all.
The current consensus inserts another generation here:
Rodulf de Warenne, m. Emma
> 2. Rudolf De Warenne
> b. abt. 998 d. aft 1074 (?) or bef 1054 (?), I have varying information.
> m. Beatrix De Vascoeuil, d/o Tesselin, Viscount Of Rouen(Highly speculative)
> and Unknown, maybe daughter Of Osbern De Bolebec.
Rodolf m. Beatrice, and that she was Beatrice de Vascoeuil,
daughter of Tesselin, is a reasonable conclusion. Keats-Rohan
seems to favor a reconstruction whereby the wife of Tesselin
was niece of Gunnora, and perhaps daughter of Osbern de
Bolbec and his wife Wevia. However, at least one recent work
suggests taht it was Tesselin's son Richard who married the
Gunnorid niece. This is all based ont he interpretation of Robert
de Torigny's interpolations into William de Juminges "Gesta
Ducum Normanorum". Unfortunately, elsewhere, he places
William de Warenne as son of Walter de St. Martin, a male-line
descendant (son, IIRC) of Osbern de Bolbec. Unfortunately,
elsewhere Torigny makes William son of Walter de St. Martin.
> 3. William, Earl Of Warenne
> b. abt. 950, Normandy, France
> m. Unknown De Torta
>
> 4. Walter De St. Martin
> b. abt 925, Normandy, France
Unfortunately, someone has decided to take the two alternative
origins of William de Warenne, and put them, one on top of the
other, in the same pedigree. William #3 here is identical to
William #1, just with two alternative solutions to the question
of his parentage. This second version can be readily dismissed,
as being at variance with the available primary documents.
taf
RHil...@aol.com
<<
The connection to Alfred the Great derives fromthe mistaken belief
that she was daughter of William the Conqueror and his wife Matilda
of Flanders (a descendant of Alfred).
When it became obvious that
William was not the father, >>
What is your source for this please?
FROM THE GENERAL ARMORY OF ENGLAND, SCOTLAND, IRELAND & WALES by Sir Bernard
Burke, C.B. LL.D. 1884, p1077,
WARREN, (Earl of Surrey, forfeited 1399;) William De Warrenne, Earl of
Warrenne, in Normandy, a kinsman of William l, having distinguished himself
at the battle of Hastings was rewarded with large grants of lands in several
counties.
FROM COLONIAL & REVOLUTIONARY LINEAGES OF AMERICA, Vol 25, p 478,
NOBLE & ROYAL LINES
William de Warenne, son of Ralph or Rodolphus and Emma, died June 24, 1088.
He is frequently called Earl of Warenne in Normandy, where he held large
tracts of land. He accompanied William the Conqueror on his victorious
invasion of England. He fought with distinction in the battle of Hastings,
and when the Conqueror returned to Normandy in 1067, the latter appointed
William to assist the two viceroys in England. In 1075, during the
Conqueror's second absence, William was appointed Chief Justiciar. In the
same year he took a leading part in suppressing the rebellion of the earls of
Hereford and Norfolk. In 1077 he founded the priory of St. Pancras at Lewes
in Sussex, the first house of the Cluniac Benedictine order in England. He
made large grants to this priory, which also received a charter from the
Conqueror. In the rebellion of 1088 he remained faithful to the English
king, William ll, the position of his castle at Lewes rendering his loyalty
especially helpful to the latter. For this service William ll gave him the
earldom of Surrey in 1088. It was from this grant that he received the title
of earl, though he is also called "first Earl of Warren and Surrey." The
assertion of some genealogists that he held a Norman earldom, however, is
contrary to invariable Norman usage. This is substantiated by the records of
the Conqueror in which William's name occurs, but without the title of earl,
nor is he called by that title in Domesday Book.
For his services in the battle of Hastings William received large grants of
land, Domesday Book recording holdings in Hampshire, Berkshire,
Buckinghamshire, Oxfordshire, Cambridgeshire, Huntingdonshire, Bedfordshire,
Yorkshire, Lincolnshire and Sussex, the latter including the borough of
Lewes. The priory of Lewes, founded by him, and in which he was buried, was
long connected with the history of his descendants. In addition to Lewes he
held over forty manors in the country. He married Gundred, who was buried
beside him in the priory of Lewes.
Bob McKeon
KHF...@aol.com
The Early Yorkshire charters do give Matilda another husband before William.
Is that the fictional marriage to which you refer? This first husband was
Gerbod of St. Omer (see below). This also shows that the ancestry of Gerbod
was unknown, so I do not see how this is related to an attempt to forge a
link with Alfred the Great.
Since she also had children with William: Robert III Courthose was born ca
1051, as was Gundred of England. So when did William and Matilda marry?
1 --Advocate of St. Bertin ®1 1. Early Yorkshire Charters, by C. T. Clay.
—————————————————————————————————————————————
Spouse: Matilda of Flanders ®2
Birth: 1032, of Flanders, France
Death: 2 Nov 1083, Caen, Calvados, France
Father: Baldwin V --Count of Flanders (1013-1067)
Mother: Adela of France (~1009-1079)
Children: Gundred of England (~1051-1085)
1.1 Gundred of England Warren ®3
—————————————————————————————————————————————
Birth: abt 1051, Normandy, France
Death: 27 May 1085, Castle Acre, Norfolk, England
Claimed as daughter of her mother by a previous, unrecorded, clandestine
marriage.
The Complete Peerage, by Cokayne, Vol. XII/1, p. 494 says she is sister of
Gerbod the Fleming, Earl of Chester. The first note is disproved in footnotes
of Cokayne cited in note 2 above.
Spouse: William de Warren ®4
Birth: abt 1055, of Bellencombe, S-Infr, France
Death: 24 Jun 1088, Lewes, Surrey, England
Father: Ralph de Warren (~0998->1074)
Mother: Beatrix de Crepon
Marr: bef 1077
Children: Edith de
William de (1071-1138)
1. Early Yorkshire Charters, by C. T. Clay.
2. Lineage and Ancestry of HRH Prince Charles by Gerald Paget, Vol. I, p. 56.
3. Royalty for Commoners, by Roderick W. Stuart, p. 100.
4. The Complete Peerage, by Cokayne, Vol. XII/1, p. 493.
With William, Matilda also had children
1 William the Conqueror --King of England ®1
—————————————————————————————————————————————
Birth: 14 Oct 1024, Falaise, Normandy, France
Death: 9 Sep 1087, Priory St. Gervais, Rouen, France
Burial: Abbey of St. Stephen, Caen, Normandy, France
Father: Robert II the Devil --6th Duke of Normandy (~1000-1035)
Mother: Arlotta of Falaise (~1003-)
Also 7th Duke of Normandy.
Spouse: Matilda of Flanders ®2
Birth: 1032, of Flanders, France
Death: 2 Nov 1083, Caen, Calvados, France
Father: Baldwin V --Count of Flanders (1013-1067)
Mother: Adela of France (~1009-1079)
Marr: 1053, Eu, France
Children: Robert III Courthose (~1051-1134)
Richard (~1054-1081)
William II (1056-1100)
Henry I (1070-1135)
Cecilia (~1055-1127)
Adelaide (~1056-1065)
Matilda (-<1112)
Constance (1061-1090)
Adela of England (1062-1908)
Agatha (-<1074)
In a message dated 1/20/2000 8:54:20 PM, ta...@po.cwru.edu writes:
<< "Shroud" <xt...@sprintmail.com>
> According to LDS and Royalty For Commoners, his ancestry is as follows:
Neither of which are sources to be trusted.
> 1. William De Warenne, Seigneur Of Varennes, Earl Of Surrey.
> b. abt. 1055, d. 1088
> m. Gundred, probably daughter Of Gerbod? Her brother was Gerbod, Earl of
> Chester. The Anglo-Saxon noble heritage would suggest a connection to
> Alfred the Great.
The connection to Alfred the Great derives fromthe mistaken belief
that she was daughter of William the Conqueror and his wife Matilda
of Flanders (a descendant of Alfred). When it became obvious that
Todd A. Farmerie
> In a message dated 00-01-20 22:54:16 EST, ta...@po.cwru.edu writes:
>
> <<
> The connection to Alfred the Great derives fromthe mistaken belief
> that she was daughter of William the Conqueror and his wife Matilda
> of Flanders (a descendant of Alfred).
>
> When it became obvious that
> William was not the father, >>
>
> What is your source for this please?
What? That William the Conqueror isn't the father? The
one document in which this claim is made can be shown
to be a late forgery (this has been discussed on the list,
so check the archives).
KHF...@aol.com wrote:
> The Early Yorkshire charters do give Matilda another husband before William.
> Is that the fictional marriage to which you refer? This first husband was
> Gerbod of St. Omer (see below). This also shows that the ancestry of Gerbod
> was unknown, so I do not see how this is related to an attempt to forge a
> link with Alfred the Great.
You are looking at it from the wrong perspective. Gerbod was
not added to forge an Alfred link. Matilda was maintained (and
in order to be maintained, it was necessary to marry her to Gerbod),
and that ended up preserving a connection to Alfred, which is fact
did not exist.
Going from memory, there is a foundation charter of a monastery
of chappel that the Warennes patronized, in which William and his
wife Gundred, daughter of King William and Queen Matilda were
founders. This is the basis for the statements to the effect that she
was a child of William and/or Matilda. By the turn of the century,
it had become clear that she could not have been child of William,
as all of his children are mentioned by the historians and chroniclers
of the time, and another daughter (particularly one married to a
prominant noble) would not have excaped such a notice. This led
to the hypothesis (expounded by Stapleton) that she must have been
step-daughter of William, daughter of Matilda by a former husband.
Likewise, as reported in CP, evidence surfaced that she was sister
of Gerbod, Earl of Chester (who in turn is hypothesized to be son of
the earlier Advocate Gerbod of St. Omer). Bringing these two
together, you get the marriage of Advocate Gerbod to Matilda.
However, there is no evidence that this marriage ever took place,
and it is extremely unlikely that the Count of Flanders would have
married his daughter to a lowly Advocate. More importantly, it can
be documented that the monastery supposedly founded by William
de Warenne and Gundred was not founded until later (Henry II's
time?), and thus the charter which made Gundred daughter of
William and Matilda is a clear forgery. There is absolutely no reason
to involve Matilda in Gundred's pedigree at all.
What we know for certain is that she was sister of Gerbod (and
there appears to have been a second sibling, Frederick). It is
reasonable to conclude that they were children of the Advocate
Gerbod. That's it.
taf