Count of Chalons query

[sirjoh...@gmail.com]

Hello all,

I wonder if anyone can help me. I'm writing a book on Edward I and currently trying to make sense of the account (given in Guisborough and the Flowers of History, as well as Rishanger, I think) of the tournament Edward fought at Chalons-sur-Saóne in 1273.

According to Guisborough, Edward was challenged to fight by the Count of Chalons. Michael Prestwich in his biography of Edward names the count as Peter, nicknamed the Oxherd.

I've searched online genealogies for the Counts of Chalon in this era and can find no Peters: Count John (the Old) died in September 1267 and was succeeded as Count by another John, Seigneur d'Arlay, who was just 14 in 1273.

However John senior did have a son named Peter by his second wife, Isabel of Courtenay. This was Peter, Seigneur de Chátel-Belin, who married Beatrice, daughter of Amadeus IV of Savoy. Peter died in 1273, so if he was the man Edward fought, must have died shortly after the tournament. According to Guisborough the 'Count' was wounded in the melee, so perhaps Peter died of his injuries.

Could anyone help me with this, please? Maybe I'm looking at the wrong family?

Thank you,

David Pilling

[Peter Stewart]

This is the event known as the "little war of Chalon" (NB not
"Chalons"), when Edward was invited to a tournament that turned nasty
when the "count" tried in vain to unhorse the king.

Calling him "count of Chalon" was simply inaccurate - Pierre nicknamed
'le Bouvier' was only seigneur of Chatelbelin, a younger son as you have
found of Jean I who had been count of Chalon until 1237 when he
exchanged it with Hugues IV, duke of Burgundy, for the very rich
seigneury of Salins. Jean's eldest son Hugues became count palatine of
Burgundy by marriage, and the family retained Chalon as a surname -
presumably English chroniclers vaguely conflated these details into a
"count of Chalon". The head of this branch of the family in 1273 was
Pierre's nephew Othon IV, known as Ottolein, count palatine of Burgundy
& seigneur of Salins - they were around the same age, and I'm not sure
which of them is generally supposed to have been the man who tussled
with Edward.

Pierre's date of death is not known - he was last recorded in July 1272
and was dead by April 1274. His wife Beatrice was a cousin of Edward's
mother, and if this connection is not mentioned in your sources it
perhaps makes him less likely than his nephew Ottolein to have been the
unfortunate combatant. The "count" is only said to have been dragged
from his horse and humiliated by Edward, not fatally wounded.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

On 28/12/2016 10:14 AM, Peter Stewart wrote:
>
>
> On 28/12/2016 5:21 AM, sirjoh...@gmail.com wrote:

>> Hello all,
>>
>> I wonder if anyone can help me. I'm writing a book on Edward I and
>> currently trying to make sense of the account (given in Guisborough
>> and the Flowers of History, as well as Rishanger, I think) of the
>> tournament Edward fought at Chalons-sur-Saóne in 1273.
>>
>> According to Guisborough, Edward was challenged to fight by the Count
>> of Chalons. Michael Prestwich in his biography of Edward names the
>> count as Peter, nicknamed the Oxherd.
>>
>> I've searched online genealogies for the Counts of Chalon in this era
>> and can find no Peters: Count John (the Old) died in September 1267
>> and was succeeded as Count by another John, Seigneur d'Arlay, who was
>> just 14 in 1273.

By the way, this is incorrect - Jean of Chalon, seigneur of Arlay, who
was ca 14 years old in 1273, was a younger half-brother of Pierre and
neither of them was ever a count, of Chalon or anywhere else. Jean I's
successor (as seigneur of Salins after the exchange of Chalon) was his
eldest son Hugues who became count palatine of Burgundy.

As far as I know, the chronicles don't specify that it was a count of
Chalon, but rather that the tournament was at Chalon and that the count
who had issued the invitation to it was the troublemaker. A likelier
candidate for this man who tried and failed to best Edward in the
"little war" tournament may have been Pierre's elder full-brother Jean,
who in 1273 was count of Auxerre by right of his second wife.

Peter Stewart

[Peter Stewart]

On 28/12/2016 12:23 PM, Peter Stewart wrote:
>
>
> On 28/12/2016 10:14 AM, Peter Stewart wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 28/12/2016 5:21 AM, sirjoh...@gmail.com wrote:

>>> Hello all,
>>>
>>> I wonder if anyone can help me. I'm writing a book on Edward I and
>>> currently trying to make sense of the account (given in Guisborough
>>> and the Flowers of History, as well as Rishanger, I think) of the
>>> tournament Edward fought at Chalons-sur-Saóne in 1273.
>>>
>>> According to Guisborough, Edward was challenged to fight by the
>>> Count of Chalons. Michael Prestwich in his biography of Edward names
>>> the count as Peter, nicknamed the Oxherd.
>>>
>>> I've searched online genealogies for the Counts of Chalon in this
>>> era and can find no Peters: Count John (the Old) died in September
>>> 1267 and was succeeded as Count by another John, Seigneur d'Arlay,
>>> who was just 14 in 1273.
>

> By the way, this is incorrect - Jean of Chalon, seigneur of Arlay, who
> was ca 14 years old in 1273, was a younger half-brother of Pierre and
> neither of them was ever a count, of Chalon or anywhere else. Jean I's
> successor (as seigneur of Salins after the exchange of Chalon) was his
> eldest son Hugues who became count palatine of Burgundy.
>
> As far as I know, the chronicles don't specify that it was a count of
> Chalon, but rather that the tournament was at Chalon and that the
> count who had issued the invitation to it was the troublemaker. A
> likelier candidate for this man who tried and failed to best Edward in
> the "little war" tournament may have been Pierre's elder full-brother
> Jean, who in 1273 was count of Auxerre by right of his second wife.

Actually Guisborough does specify the count's supposed territorial
designation ("comes ille strenuus de Chalons"). This error is presumably
the source for many historians who situate the tournament at Chalons
(that is on the Marne, in Champagne) instead of Chalon (on the Saone, in
Burgundy-Franche-Comté) where it happened. The chronicler evidently did
not even know the Latin for count of Chalon (comes Cabilonensis).

A safe ground rule for anyone interested in this episode would be to
disregard all secondary sources that haven't bothered to correct
"Chalons" to Chalon.

Peter Stewart

[sirjoh...@gmail.com]

Many thanks for these responses, Peter, very helpful! Since the Pierre you mention was known as Le Bouvier, and Prestwich remarks that Edward's opponent was one Peter known as The Oxherd, might he be the likeliest candidate? I'm not sure of Prestwich's source though - he only quotes Guisborough, who so far as I can see from an online version of the chronicle does not name the 'count'.

Thanks again!

[Peter Stewart]

I don't think Prestwich is reliable on this identification - he wrote:
"The count of Chalons//, Peter, known as the Oxherd, invited the English
king to join him in a tournament, which took the form of Edward's men
against all-comers". As I noted before, "Chalons" for Chalon is a
give-away that Prestwich had not troubled himself to know much about the
matter.

Pierre le Bouvier and Peter the Oxherd are the same man. As I have
pointed out, he was not a count and his family's surname was Chalon not
Chalons. There were no counts of Chalons, that is in Champagne. In 1273
there was no-one going by the title count of Chalon, that belonged to
the duke of Burgundy from 1237 - the duke at that time was Robert II,
who was titular king of Thessalonica.

Pierre and his younger half-brother Jean of Arlay were not counts. Otho
IV, count palatine of Burgundy, the head of their family, was somewhat
too important a figure to be publicly humiliated by Edward without
mention in local sources.

In my view the likeliest person to be mistakenly named as count of
Chalon was Pierre's elder full-brother Jean, whose second wife was one
of the three heiresses of her grandfather Hugues IV, duke of Burgundy
(died 1272). Through her Jean was count of Auxerre - I suppose he may
have held Chalon as well, but if so he was not known by this as a
comital title.

Peter Stewart

[sirjoh...@gmail.com]

Thanks again Peter - I may check with Prestwich as to his source, but this is very useful. Cheers.

[Peter Stewart]

Please let us know if Prestwich advises where he found the name of
Pierre le Bouvier connected with the "little war" episode - he cited
only Guisborough, which is not the source for this problematic
identification.

Peter Stewart

[sirjoh...@gmail.com]

Will do.