Bertrada de Blancminster, daughter of Amice de Audley

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The...@aol.com

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May 30, 2006, 12:14:50 AM5/30/06
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Monday, 29 May, 2006


Dear Rosie, Todd, et al.,

An interesting if minor correction to the pedigree of the
Blancminster (or Albo Monasterio) family was noted. Posts on the
matter from some time ago included details from the IPM of
Bertraya (or Bertrada) de Blancminster, provided by Rosie Bevan
[1]. The initial presumption, according to my notes, was that
Bertraya and her sisters were full sisters, although this was not
critical to the discussion in 2001.

The following record concerning a petition in 1283 was noted
today, which shows that Bertraya (or Bertrada) was the daughter,
not of Eva 'filia Warini' [elsewhere, "FitzWarin"], but rather of
a marriage [presumably first marriage] of William de Blancminster
to Amice de Audley.

" Nicholas de Audley complained that his brother William
had brought mort d'ancestor to recover the reversion
following his grandfather Henry's grant of maritagium
to William de Albo Monasterio and Amice, Henry's
daughter. William and Amice had a daughter, Bertrede,
who had survived her parents and had died without issue.
.....
The holders of the land were Eleanor Lestrange and her
sisters, Joan the wife of William de Barentyn and
Maud the wife of William de Bracy. They were Bertrede's
collateral heirs. " [2]

The petition of Nicholas de Audley was based on the claim of
reversion of the maritagium of Amice de Audley to the nearest
heir, which Eleanor, Maud and Joan would not have been as the
issue of another wife of William de Blancminster. My records now
reflect the relationship as follows:


Ralph de = Amicia of
Mainwaring I Chester
I
I
Sir Henry de Aldithley = Bertrade de Mainwaring
d. bef Nov 1246 I
______________________I______
I I I I
I I I <1> <2>
Sir James Emma I Amicia = William = Eve
de Audley = Gruffydd I I de I 'filia
d. 1272 'Maelor' I ______I Blancminster I Warini'
= Ela of Powys I I _________I______
Longespee Fadog I I I I I
I I I Bertrade Eleanor Joan Maud
V V I <Bertraya>
I dsp 1280
_____________________I
I
Alice = Piers de
I Montfort of
I Beaudesert
I
V


Amicia (de Audley) de Blancminster, of whom I had not heard
previously, was the namesake of her maternal grandmother Amicia,
daughter of Hugh 'Kevelioc', Earl of Chester (d. 1181) and wife
of Ralph de Mainwaring (or Meinilwarin). Bertrada de
Blancminster was, evidently, the namesake of her maternal
grandmother, Bertrada (de Mainwaring) de Audley.

Cheers,

John *

NOTES

[1] Rosie Bevan, <Re: Clemence de Dauntsey, mother of Joan of
Wales>, SGM, 20 Nov 2001:

" Just to throw even more into the equation, the IPM of Bertraya
filia Willielmi de Blauminster alias Blauminster reveals that
Alianora (Blancminster) Estrange had three sisters. Inquiries
were held in Essex and Shropshire.

9 Edw I (1280) Bertraya filia Willielmi de Blauminster
Elynora Extranea, Johann de Barentyne, et Matilda de Bracy,
soreres praedictae Bertreyae, sunt haeredes ipsius Bertreyae
et sunt plenaria aetate. Salop.
Alienora Le Estrange, Johanna de Barentyn uxor domini Willielmi
de Barentyn militis, Matilda uxor Willielmi de Bracy, sorores
ipsius Bertteyae, sunt haeredes propinquiores ipsius
Berttreyae ; et sunt aetate triginta annorum et amplius. Essex

Eleanor appears to be a widow at this time. All three sisters
are are said to be 30 years or more.

She held a fourth part of Blamunster manor in Shropshire
Lands in 'Estaines ad montem' and Cavenell Parva in Essex

Cheers


Rosie "


[2] Joseph Biancalana, The Fee Tail and the Common Recovery
in Medieval England, 1176-1502 (Cambridge: Cambridge
Univ. Press, 2001), p. 36 [cites "Richardson and Sayles,
Rotuli parliamentorum, 20-1" and "2 IPM, No. 387 (1281)
(Bertrede a daughter of William de Blauminister)".]


* John P. Ravilious

Louise Staley

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May 30, 2006, 2:43:29 AM5/30/06
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Great work John,

I have a note that William Blancminster also had a wife named Clemence,
do you have anything on that?

Louise

> The...@aol.com wrote:
> Monday, 29 May, 2006
>
>
> Dear Rosie, Todd, et al.,
>
> An interesting if minor correction to the pedigree of the
> Blancminster (or Albo Monasterio) family was noted. Posts on the
> matter from some time ago included details from the IPM of
> Bertraya (or Bertrada) de Blancminster, provided by Rosie Bevan
> [1]. The initial presumption, according to my notes, was that
> Bertraya and her sisters were full sisters, although this was not
> critical to the discussion in 2001.
>
> The following record concerning a petition in 1283 was noted
> today, which shows that Bertraya (or Bertrada) was the daughter,
> not of Eva 'filia Warini' [elsewhere, "FitzWarin"], but rather of
> a marriage [presumably first marriage] of William de Blancminster
> to Amice de Audley.
>

<snip>
>
> Cheers,
>
> John *
> * John P. Ravilious

John P. Ravilious

unread,
May 30, 2006, 6:36:36 AM5/30/06
to
Dear Louise,

I have a file including several posts from 2001 which I will
need to review on your Clemence question (she does not currently reside
in my database).

Meanwhile, you might want to look at the very long thread
starting 13 Nov 2001, under title <Llywellyn Fawr> in which Graeme Wall
asked the loaded question,

" Llywellyn Fawr (llewellyn the Great) married Joan, natural
daughter of King John. Is it known who her mother was? "

Cheers,

John

Hal Bradley

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May 30, 2006, 2:00:17 PM5/30/06
to
John,

Great find. Thanks for sharing.

This family is extensively discussed in Eyton's "Antiquities of Shropshire",
v. 10, p. 21 et seq. Eyton's account confirms Bertrade's three [half]
sisters, Joan, Maud and Eleanor.

"The Chetwynds of Ingestre" (London, 1892) suggests there may be another
sister; pp. 23-25 provides the following pertaining to Eve, wife of Adam de
Chetwynd:

"It has long been a vexed question who this Lady Eva de Oswaldestre was, but
it is set at rest by the Chetwynd MSS. The retention of her maiden name
shows she was a lady of some consequence. She is also described in several
charters as a daughter of Roger de Albo Monasterio, Sire de Blancmostiers.
For instance, John FitzPhilip granted to Eva, daughter of Roger de Albo
Monasterio, and John de Chetwynd, her son, certain woodlands at Barlaston
between Berryhill and Cokenegge (Cocknage), for which she paid him ten
pounds in silver. Her mother was a Princess of Wales, widow of Llewelyn ap
Jorwerth, who took Blancmostiers for her second husband some time after
1240. Blancmostiers, or more properly, Blancminster, is synonymous with the
Latin form De Albo Monasterio, the name by which Oswestry or Oswaldestre was
known for its beautiful Minster church. The family had also lands in
Cornwall and in Yorkshire, being descended from the Yorkshire Hagets on the
mother's side. And they were allied in marriage with Bartholomew Turet or
Toret one of those Shropshire knights who were out in rebellion against King
John."

There is some confusion in this account as Eve Fitz Warin, widow of
Llywelyn, married William, not Roger de Blancminster. William's mother, Lucy
Toret, was granddaughter of Bertram Haget. Unfortunately, as with most
secondary accounts of this nature, there is little in the way of
documentation. The account continues:

"Eva de Oswaldestre had all her husband's love of accumulating money and
estates. From John FitzPhilip she purchased the house and garden at
Barlaston, where John the Forester formerly lived, for twenty silver marks,
and more lands at Biddulph from Sir Nicholas Colyer, Knt., and at Gillow.
She had property near Rugeley, at Colton. An Ingestre Deed of 30 Edward III
describes certain lands there as "formerly belonging to Eva de Chetwynd." A
messuage there, "formerly Eva's," was at that time held by her grandson,
William Chetwynd of Shynton. Eva had to look well after her scattered
estates of dower as other widows did, and was fond of litigation whether in
the Courts of Law or in the field. She was only lately a widow when Geoffrey
de Wasteneys, the heir of Tixall, preferred a plaint against her at the
Assizes for committing "waste and destruction" in houses and lands which she
held as guardian of his inheritance. On this occasion she did not appear.
But four years afterwards she won a verdict against him at Lichfield on a
question of presentation to the Church of Tixall. Another charge was
preferred against her (as had been laid against her husband) by Richard de
Okeover for illegally detaining his cattle at Ipstones, but it was
dismissed, Richard not appearing to prosecute. On another occasion she made
a raid with two of her sons on the fishponds at Mutton, but this will be
better told in another place."

If Eve was another sister of Joan, Maud and Eleanor, she must have died
before Bertrade, as she is not mentioned in the 1283 petition as noted by
John. Comments are invited. Thank you.

Hal Bradley

Sutliff

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May 30, 2006, 3:32:10 PM5/30/06
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I presume this is addressed to Rosie Bevan? Sorry, but she is no longer
following the discussions on this list.You may want to contact her
privately.

Hap

<The...@aol.com> wrote in message news:44e.241226...@aol.com...

mj...@btinternet.com

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May 30, 2006, 3:45:24 PM5/30/06
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"Hal Bradley" schrieb:

> "The Chetwynds of Ingestre" (London, 1892) suggests there may be another
> sister; pp. 23-25 provides the following pertaining to Eve, wife of Adam de
> Chetwynd:
>
> "It has long been a vexed question who this Lady Eva de Oswaldestre was, but
> it is set at rest by the Chetwynd MSS. The retention of her maiden name
> shows she was a lady of some consequence. She is also described in several
> charters as a daughter of Roger de Albo Monasterio, Sire de Blancmostiers.
> For instance, John FitzPhilip granted to Eva, daughter of Roger de Albo
> Monasterio, and John de Chetwynd, her son, certain woodlands at Barlaston
> between Berryhill and Cokenegge (Cocknage), for which she paid him ten
> pounds in silver. Her mother was a Princess of Wales, widow of Llewelyn ap
> Jorwerth, who took Blancmostiers for her second husband some time after
> 1240. Blancmostiers, or more properly, Blancminster, is synonymous with the
> Latin form De Albo Monasterio, the name by which Oswestry or Oswaldestre was
> known for its beautiful Minster church.

I understood that Blanc(h)minster/ Albo Monasterio was Whitchurch, not
Oswestry, in Shropshire? (I drove past both places yesterday, and was
tempted to call in, but am saving that for another day.)

MA-R

WJho...@aol.com

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May 30, 2006, 4:51:05 PM5/30/06
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And is Eva FitzWarin the same named person who was widow of Oliver de Tracy
and secondly of Thomas de London ?

Thanks
Will

Hal Bradley

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May 30, 2006, 5:17:27 PM5/30/06
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No. They were aunt and niece.

Hal Bradley

Hal Bradley

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May 30, 2006, 5:52:45 PM5/30/06
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snip

>
> I understood that Blanc(h)minster/ Albo Monasterio was Whitchurch, not
> Oswestry, in Shropshire? (I drove past both places yesterday, and was
> tempted to call in, but am saving that for another day.)
>
> MA-R
>

Oswestry and Whitchurch are distinct as far as I know. However, Dugdale's
Monasticon Anglicanum 6 (3): 1622 sub Oswestre interestingly states,
"Leland's mention of a Monastery here under the name of White-Church has
already been noticed in the Account of the Abbey of Shrewsbury [1]..."

There seems to have been a church at Oswestry called Whitchurch at one time.

Hal Bradley


[1] Monasticon Anglicanum 3:517 note

WJho...@aol.com

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May 30, 2006, 6:07:01 PM5/30/06
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In a message dated 5/30/06 11:01:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
hw.br...@verizon.net writes:

<< She is also described in several
charters as a daughter of Roger de Albo Monasterio, Sire de Blancmostiers.
For instance, John FitzPhilip granted to Eva, daughter of Roger de Albo
Monasterio, and John de Chetwynd, her son, certain woodlands at Barlaston
between Berryhill and Cokenegge (Cocknage), for which she paid him ten

pounds in silver. ....
<snipped>


There is some confusion in this account as Eve Fitz Warin, widow of
Llywelyn, married William, not Roger de Blancminster. William's mother, Lucy
Toret, was granddaughter of Bertram Haget. Unfortunately, as with most
secondary accounts of this nature, there is little in the way of
documentation. >>

Possibly, but the specific reference to Barlaston and "Roger de Albo
Monasterio" could be traced back to its source presumably. And then we could know if
it really says Roger, and if it really says "daughter"

Will

Louise Staley

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May 30, 2006, 6:49:53 PM5/30/06
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> Hal Bradley wrote:
> No. They were aunt and niece.
>
> Hal Bradley
>
>> Will Johnson wrote:
>>
>> And is Eva FitzWarin the same named person who was widow of
>> Oliver de Tracy
>> and secondly of Thomas de London ?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Will
>>

Dear Will,

From my database, I show the following, (note there may be other
children of these families I do not have):


Descendants of Fulk II Fitzwarine
---------------------------------
1-Fulk II Fitzwarine d. 1197
+Hawis Dinham co-heiress of Westbury Priory d. After 1226
|--2-Sir Fulk III Fitzwarine Knt., of Lambourn, Whittington &
| Alveston b. Bef 1178, d. 1258
| +Maud Vavasour d. Bef 1226
| |--3-Sir Fulk IV Fitzwarine d. 14 May 1264, Lewes, SSX, ENG
| | +Constance Toeni b. Between Jul 1233 and Jan 1237, d. 11 Feb
| | 1266
| | |--4-Sir Fulk V Fitzwarine Baron Fitzwarin 1st b. 14 Sep 1251,
| | | Whittington, SAL, ENG, d. 24 Nov 1315
| |--3-Eva Fitzwarine
| +William Blancminster d. Bef 1260
| |--4-Joan Blancminster co-heiress of Blancminster d. , s.p.
| |--4-Maud Blancminster co-heiress of Blancminster
| |--4-Eleanor Blancminster co-heiress of Blancminster b. Bef
| | 1251, d. 1306, Ercall Magna, SAL, ENG
| +Clarice Auberville heiress d. After 8 Oct 1250
| |--3-Mabel Fitzwarine d. Bef 24 May 1297
| +William Crevecoeur d. Bef 6 Apr 1263, v.p. & s.p.
| +Sir John Tregoz Baron Tregoz 1st b. Abt 1250, d. 21 Aug 1300,
| s.p.m.
| |--4-Clarice Tregoz co-heiress b. Bef Jan 1262
| |--4-Sibyl Tregoz co-heiress b. Between 1270 and 1271, d. 21
| | Oct 1334, (Dore, HEF, ENG)
|--2-Eva Fitzwarine
| +Sir Oliver Tracy d. 1211
| |--3-Eva Tracy
| +Warin Bassingbourne
| +Thomas Londres Lord of Kidwelly d. Bef 1221
| |--3-Hawis Londres d. 1274
| +Walter Breuse d. Bef 14 Jan 1234
| +Henry Truberville Seneschal of Gascony d. 1240
| +Patrick Chaworth Lord of Kempsford d. 1258
| |--4-Eva Chaworth b. 1252, d. Abt 30 Aug 1300
| |--4-Sir Patrick Chaworth Lord of Kempsford b. 1254, d. Bef 7
| | Jul 1283
|--2-Eudo Fitzwarine
| +
|--2-Eugenia Fitzwarine
+Thomas Mauduit of Warminster b. Abt 1183, d. After 28 Jul 1244
|--3-William Mauduit of Warminster d. Abt 4 Apr 1264
+
|--4-Thomas Mauduit of Warminster b. After 1243, d. Abt 1271
---------------------------------

WJho...@aol.com

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May 30, 2006, 7:13:36 PM5/30/06
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In a message dated 5/30/06 3:52:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
car...@bigpond.com writes:

<< | |--3-Mabel Fitzwarine d. Bef 24 May 1297
| +William Crevecoeur d. Bef 6 Apr 1263, v.p. & s.p.
| +Sir John Tregoz Baron Tregoz 1st b. Abt 1250, d. 21 Aug 1300,
| s.p.m.
| |--4-Clarice Tregoz co-heiress b. Bef Jan 1262
| |--4-Sibyl Tregoz co-heiress b. Between 1270 and 1271, d. 21
| | Oct 1334, (Dore, HEF, ENG) >>

Thanks Louise for this data, it helps me sort it all out.
In the above you have one chronologic problem with John Tregoz b abt 1250 and
his daughter Clarice b bef Jan 1262 when he would have been 10 or 11 himself.

Will Johnson

John P. Ravilious

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May 31, 2006, 6:25:06 AM5/31/06
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Dear Hal,

You're more than welcome.

And, thanks to you for the Chetwynd extracts, and ref. to Eyton.

Cheers,

John

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