Lurkers -Read this
Tristan Tornado
Listen to me.
I know you have been put off by one thing or another and you feel
unwelcome here.But I want you to do something.On December 3, I want
you all to post a query or a short message about a medieval ancestor.
Even if these people already know about them ,there is someone out
there who doesn't know. Ask a question, or whatever. Just do it. For me.
(How do you like that sentence structure ?
I have heard from some of you and I know there are a lot of you ot
there. You don't have to be a PhD or a PhG or a master genealogist.All
you have to know how to do is read and write. You can be from East
Harlem,NYC: Needles, Arizona;Alice Springs, AU;Bilaspur,India or
Okene, Nigeria or wherever.
You don't have to be an expert on medieval history or genealogy. Just
have the desire to know.
These medieval people we are talking about had a direct affect on your
lives. You may not know it, but the things they did determined a lot
of who you are and what you believe. The brutal power they wielded and
their passionate natures have trickled down to form whatever you are
today.
You wouldn't be interested in medieval genealogy if you didn't
recognize the influence. You wouldn't care.
There are a lot of other lurkers who want to know what you know and
they will only know about you if you post something.
I think there are more lurkers than posters. I will only know if you
give me a sign of life.
Show the same passion about your desire to know as William had in his
desire for England when he conquered her. William the faithful
Conqueror.
Tristan "Tornado" Toronado
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Omar...@aol.com
rootsweb address so it went to the wrong place. But since you want people to
write in about their medieval ancestors and that's what I intended in the
first place, I'll do it again. I have been "lurking" for the last week, since
I subscribed, because I wasn't sure how to go about all this. I've never been
on any email list like this before. And I am a beginning genealogist. :)
So, please bear with me if I make mistakes.
Most of my ancestors are English with a few other things thrown in here and
there. But in 1542 a Vincenzo (Vincent) Guicciardini pops up out of nowhere.
He and his daughter Camilla (b. 1562) - both were from Florence. Other than
Camilla marrying a Thomas Darcy, I have no information on either of these two.
I don't know any other dates, any relatives...nothing. Would you or anyone
else know who these people were and who their relatives were, etc.?
Thanks in advance,
Stacey
David Collyer
>OK all of you lurkers out there.
>Listen to me.
>you all to post a query or a short message about a medieval ancestor.
OK Tristan - here's mine..........
Does anyone know the parents of Ermengarde De TONNERRE ( - 1090) who
married William De NEVERS (1030 - 1100) and was the mother of Renaud II De
NEVERS?
Regards
David in Ballarat, Victoria, Australia
Stop by for a visit at www.giant.net.au
Mike
David Collyer a écrit dans le message
<3.0.5.32.1998120...@mail.giant.net.au>...
1ère génération
1 - Irmengarde TONNERRE ca 1030-ca 1085
2e génération
2 - Renaud Ier de TONNERRE ca 990-1038
3 - Ervise WOEVRE *ca 1000
3e génération
4 - Milon IV de TONNERRE ca 965-ca 998
5 - Ermengarde WOEVRE ca 970-1035
6 - Raoul III de WOEVRE *ca 965
7 - ? ?
4e génération
8 - Guy II de TONNERRE ca 945-992
9 - Adèle N... *ca 940
10 - Réginald WOEVRE ca 950-ca 997
11 - ? ?
12 - Raoul II de WOEVRE *ca 932
13 - Eve N... *ca 935
5e génération
16 - Milon III de TONNERRE ca 915-987
17 - Ingeltrude BRIENNE *ca 925
20 => 12
21 => 13
24 - Raoul Ier de WOEVRE *ca 915
25 - ? ?
6e génération
32 - Guy Ier de TONNERRE *ca 875
33 - Adèle SALINS *ca 880
34 - Engelbert Ier de BRIENNE ca 900-ca 969
35 - Wandalmodis SALINS *ca 900
48 - Renard WOEVRE *ca 890
49 - N LASSOIS *ca 900
Et voila !
William Marshall
> Does anyone know the parents of Ermengarde De TONNERRE ( - 1090) who
> married William De NEVERS (1030 - 1100) and was the mother of Renaud II De
> NEVERS?
I've been experimenting with a program to generate ahnen<somethings>,
and here is a perfect opportunity to try it out. I usually print these
with a 8-point font, so the print lines hold more than standard 80
columns; a wide screen would make it easier to read too.
Always looking for corrections to the data. I'm also looking for
comments on the format.
Bill Marshall
w...@research.att.com
1 Ermengarde Of Tonnerre [AR:107-21s] d. Abt 1085 m. 1045 William I Count Of Nevers
Birth: parents: [Ref: Moriarty p240, Moriarty p65], father: [Ref: Moriarty p64,
Watney #727, Weis AR #107]
Death: date: before 1085 [Ref: Moriarty p240, Moriarty p64, Moriarty p65]
2 Renaud Count Of Tonnerre [AR:107-21sf] b. Abt 980 d. 1034 m. Erwig
Birth: date: abt 980 [Ref: Moriarty p65], parents: [Ref: Moriarty p240, Moriarty p65]
Death: date: [Ref: Moriarty p65] Jul 16 1039 [Ref: Moriarty p240]
Marr: names: [Ref: Moriarty p65]
3 Erwig d. After 1039 m. Renaud Count Of Tonnerre
Death: date: occ 1039 [Ref: Moriarty p65] widow in 1039 [Ref: Moriarty p240]
4 Milo Count Of Tonnerre b. Abt 950 d. 998 m. Abt 975 Ermengarde Of Bar
Birth: date: abt 950 [Ref: Moriarty p65], parents: [Ref: Moriarty p240] dotted line
on chart [Ref: Moriarty p65]
Death: date: [Ref: Moriarty p65] 998/1000 [Ref: Moriarty p135] abt 998 [Ref: Moriarty
p66] before 998 [Ref: Moriarty p240]
Marr: date: abt 975 [Ref: Moriarty p65, Moriarty p66] first marriage of Ermengarde
[Ref: Moriarty p134], names: [Ref: Moriarty p135, Moriarty p240]
5 Ermengarde Of Bar [AR:140-20s, AR:50-20s, 9G82-3V] d. After 1035 m. Abt 975 Milo Count Of Tonnerre m2. Abt 1000 Herbert III Count Of Vermandois
Birth: father: [Ref: Moriarty p134, Moriarty p135, Moriarty p240, Moriarty p66,
Redlich p120, Weis AR #140, Weis AR #50]
Death: date: after 1018 [Ref: Moriarty p134] after 1035 [Ref: Moriarty p135, Moriarty
p65, Moriarty p66] widow in 1018 [Ref: Moriarty p240]
8 Guy b. Abt 920 m. Adele
Birth: date: abt 920 [Ref: Moriarty p65], father: [Ref: Moriarty p240, Moriarty p65]
Marr: names: [Ref: Moriarty p240, Moriarty p65]
9 Adele m. Guy
10 Reinald Count Of Bar [AR:140-20sf, AR:50-20sf, FLGX-VG] d. Abt 997 m.
Birth: father: [Ref: Moriarty p135, Moriarty p66]
Death: date: abt 997/8 [Ref: Moriarty p66] after 997 [Ref: Moriarty p135]
16 Milo b. Abt 890 m.
Birth: date: abt 890 [Ref: Moriarty p65]
20 Raoul Count Of Bar-Sur-Seine d. After 981 m.
Birth: father: [Ref: Moriarty p66], great-grandfather: Renaud Count of Bar-sur-seine
[Ref: Moriarty p66]
Death: date: after 981 [Ref: Moriarty p135, Moriarty p66]
40 (Unk) m.
Birth: father: [Ref: Moriarty p66], paternal-grandfather: Renaud Count of
Bar-sur-seine [Ref: Moriarty p66]
80 (Unk) m.
Birth: parents: [Ref: Moriarty p66]
160 Renaud Vicomte Of Amperrs, Count Of Bar-Sur-Sei d. After 924 m. (Unk Dau)
Death: date: occ 924 [Ref: Moriarty p65]
Marr: names: Renaud & prob dau Raoul Count of Lassois [Ref: Moriarty p65]
161 (Unk Dau) m. Renaud Vicomte Of Amperrs, Count Of Bar-Sur-Sei
Birth: father: perhaps dau of Raoul Count Of Lassois [Ref: Moriarty p65]
322 Raoul Count Of Lassois d. 886 m.
Birth: father: [Ref: Moriarty p65]
Death: date: [Ref: Moriarty p65]
644 Rudolph Count Of Ponthieu [ES:I-57, ES:III-736] d. Jan 6 866 m. Hroudon
Birth: parents: [Ref: Moriarty p17, Paget p221]
Death: date: [Ref: Moriarty p17, Paget p221]
Marr: names: [Ref: ES III #736]
645 Hroudon d. After 867 m. Rudolph Count Of Ponthieu
Death: date: nach 867 [Ref: ES III #736]
1288 Guelph Count Of Andech And Bavaria [ES:I-57, ES:III-736, AR:140-14s2f, 9GCT-BK] b. 787 d. Abt 825 m. Edith (Heilwig) Of Saxony, Abbess Of Chelles
Birth: date: [Ref: Wurts p428], father: [Ref: Paget p221]
(discrep):
parents: Isenbart Lord of Altorf & Ermentrude of Swabia [Ref: Wurts p428]
Death: date: 818 [Ref: Wurts p428] 824-5 [Ref: Paget p221] abt 825 [Ref: Moriarty
p17]
Marr: names: [Ref: Moriarty p17, Paget p221, Wurts p428]
1289 Edith (Heilwig) Of Saxony, Abbess Of Chelles [9GCT-CQ] d. 833 m. Guelph Count Of Andech And Bavaria
Birth: brother: Egbert Duke of Saxony [Ref: Paget p221]
Death: date: after 833 [Ref: Moriarty p17]
2576 Ruthardus Duke Of Bavaria d. After 768 m.
Birth: father: [Ref: Paget p221]
Death: date: living 768 [Ref: Paget p221]
5152 Guelph Duke Of Fruili, Count Of Bavaria m.
Sources:
Moriarty, George Andrews, Plantagenet Ancestry of King Edward III And Queen
Philippa. Salt Lake: Mormon Pioneer Genealogical Society, 1985. LDS
Film#0441438. nypl#ARF-86-2555.
Schwennicke, Detlev, ed., Euroopaische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte
der europaischen Staaten, New Series, Marburg: J.A. Stargardt, 1978-.
Watney, Vernon James, The Wallop Family and their Ancestry, Oxford:John
Johnson, 1928. LDS Film#1696491 items 6-9.
Weis, Frederick Lewis, Ancestral Roots of Sixty Colonists, 6th Edition,
Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Co, 1988.
Redlich, Marcellus Donald R Von, Pedigrees of Some of the Emperor
Charlemagne's Descdenants. Order of the Crown of Charlemagne, 1941.
Paget, Gerald, The Lineage and Ancestry of H.R.H. Prince Charles, Prince of
Wales. London: Charles Skilton Ltd, 1977. Nypl ARF+ 78-835.
Wurts, John S., Magna Charta: The Pedigrees of the Barons, Philadelphia, PA:
Brookfield Publishing Co, 1942.
Cristopher Nash
This is an intriguing genealogy. I wonder - might we have an idea as to
sources for it? C-à-d the 'là' in your 'voilà'!
Many thanks.
Cris
--------------------------------------
"Mike" <michel....@wanadoo.fr> wrote on 3 December 1998:
>David Collyer a Ècrit dans le message
><3.0.5.32.1998120...@mail.giant.net.au>...
>>At 17:04 1/12/98 -0800, you wrote:
>>>OK all of you lurkers out there.
>>>Listen to me.
>>>But I want you to do something.On December 3, I want
>>>you all to post a query or a short message about a medieval ancestor.
>>
>>OK Tristan - here's mine..........
>>Does anyone know the parents of Ermengarde De TONNERRE ( - 1090) who
>>married William De NEVERS (1030 - 1100) and was the mother of Renaud II De
>>NEVERS?
>>Regards
>>David in Ballarat, Victoria, Australia
>>
>>
>>Stop by for a visit at www.giant.net.au
>
>
> 1Ëre gÈnÈration
>1 - Irmengarde TONNERRE ca 1030-ca 1085
>2e gÈnÈration
>2 - Renaud Ier de TONNERRE ca 990-1038
>3 - Ervise WOEVRE *ca 1000
> 3e gÈnÈration
>4 - Milon IV de TONNERRE ca 965-ca 998
>5 - Ermengarde WOEVRE ca 970-1035
>6 - Raoul III de WOEVRE *ca 965
>7 - ? ?
> 4e gÈnÈration
>8 - Guy II de TONNERRE ca 945-992
>9 - AdËle N... *ca 940
>10 - RÈginald WOEVRE ca 950-ca 997
>11 - ? ?
>12 - Raoul II de WOEVRE *ca 932
>13 - Eve N... *ca 935
> 5e gÈnÈration
>16 - Milon III de TONNERRE ca 915-987
>17 - Ingeltrude BRIENNE *ca 925
>20 => 12
>21 => 13
>24 - Raoul Ier de WOEVRE *ca 915
>25 - ? ?
> 6e gÈnÈration
>32 - Guy Ier de TONNERRE *ca 875
>33 - AdËle SALINS *ca 880
Alex Polenov
de Bourgogne until he became duke.
ED MANN
>
> At 17:04 1/12/98 -0800, you wrote:
> >OK all of you lurkers out there.
> >Listen to me.
> >But I want you to do something.On December 3, I want
> >you all to post a query or a short message about a medieval ancestor.
>
> OK Tristan - here's mine..........
> married William De NEVERS (1030 - 1100) and was the mother of Renaud II De
> NEVERS?
Realizing the usual Stuart caveats apply:
Descendants of Milo I de Tonnerre
1 Count Milo I de Tonnerre d: Aft. 850 ref #: S254-39
2 Count Milo II de Tonnerre d: Aft. 879 ref #: S254-38
3 Count Gui I de Tonnerre d: Aft. 969 ref #: S254-37
+Adela de Salins
4 Count Milo III de Tonnerre d: 987 ref #: S254-36
+Engeltrude de Brienne
5 Count Gui II de Tonnerre b: Abt. 920 d: Bef. 994 ref #: S254-35
+Adela
6 Count Milo IV de Tonnerre b: Abt. 950 d: Bef. 998 ref #: S254-34
+Ermengarde de Bar-sur-Seine b: Abt. 970 d: Aft. 1035 ref #:
(Ä50-20)
7 Count Renaud de Tonnerre b: Abt. 980 d: 16 Jul 1039 ref #:
(Ä107-21)
+Helvise
8 Ermengarde de Tonnerre ref #: (Ä107-21)
+Count Guillaume I de Nevers aka: William I de Nevers b: Abt. 1030
d: 20 Jun 1100 ref #: Ä107-21
9 Renaud II de Nevers b: Abt. 1046 d: 5 Aug 1089 ref #: Ä107-22
+Ida Raimonde de Lyon b: 1055 ref #: (Ä107-22)
--
FWIW; AFAIK; IMHO; YMMV; yadda, yadda, yadda.
Regards, Ed Mann mailto:edl...@mail2.lcia.com
References:
Ä = Weis, _Ancestral_Roots_, 7th ed.
AACPW = Roberts & Reitwiesner, _American Ancestors and Cousins of
the Princess of Wales_, [page].
AAP = Roberts, _Ancestors_of_American_Presidents_, [page] or
[Pres. # : page].
BP1 = _Burke's_Presidential_Families_, 1st ed. [page].
BPci = _Burke's_Peerage_, 101st ed., [page].
BRF = Weir, _Britain's_Royal_Families_, [page].
BxP = _Burke's_Dormant_&_Extinct_Peerages_, [page].
EC1 = Redlich, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol I, [page].
EC2 = Langston & Buck, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,
[page].
EC3 = Buck & Beard, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,
[page].
F = Faris, _Plantagenet_Ancestry_, [page:para].
Π= Hardy, _Colonial_Families_of_the_Southern_States_of_America_,
[page].
S = Stuart, _Royalty_for_Commoners_, 2d ed. Caveat emptor.
W = Weis, _Magna_Charta_Sureties,_1215_, 4th ed.
WFT = Broderbund's World Family Tree CD, [vol]:[num] Caveat emptor.
WMC = Wurt's Magna Charta, [vol]:[page]
Jean E. Smythe
I'll try to accede to your suggestion.
Not sure just which centuries are meant by medieval, and some questions
which I have would deal with the 18th century (which I take to be too late
for this group), but anyway:
Since Burke's Peerage and probably other sources often do not list female
children, it is often hard to find out who are the parents of a wife. For
example, I have David Erskine, 9th Earl of Buchan, son of Henry Erskine, 3rd
Lord Cardross (who died May 21, 1693), and Catherine Stewart. How could I
find out if this Catherine is a "Royal" Stewart?
OK, just one question for today, but there may be others ...
Jean E. Smythe
Nanaimo, B.C.
Alex Polenov
of de Tonnerre-Charante?
Alex
> + = Hardy, _Colonial_Families_of_the_Southern_States_of_America_,
Leo van de Pas
You are so close to the 'boarder of time' and as you ask the question
on this forum, I am very happy to answer your question. Catherine's father
is Sir James Stewart, of Kirkhill and that is all I can tell you on
her---but you could have asked the same question about Catherine's husband
and then you would have had much more success! Esme Stuart, Duke of
Lennox, John Stewart, 1st Earl of Atholl, Matthew Stewart, 11th Earl of
Lennox, James II Stewart, King of Scots, Robert Stewart, 1st Duke of
Albany, Edward III, King of England, William the Conqueror and Charlemagne,
they are all his ancestors.
If you want any additions to those remarks let me know.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Josephine Lindsay Bass
Feleciana Parish, LA.
i am lucky to have DOROTHY DUDLEY in my line and that was my jumping off
place to all the royals - and I am having a ball. Dorothy m. Henry
GATEWOOD in Spotsylvania co. VA in 1714. Dorothy b 1695 d 1751 Spots. Co.
dau of Richard 2nd son of EDWARD DUDLEY as shown by will of Thomas Saxe pr.
1 Jan 1654/55 & Elizabeth Dudley.
Will of Richard Dudley names daus Elizabeth Gatewood & Dorothy Gatewood,
dtd 10 Dec 1716, pr 16 July 1717 Essex Co. (Bk 16, p. 79)
"Living Desc of Blood Royal" pp. 323-327, the Dudley line traces back to
King Edward I 1239-1307, who m. Eleanor of Castile 1254.
There are quite a few maybes connected to Royalty in my lines.
such as TAYLOR - PENN - PENDLETON - HURT - GREGORY - THORNTON -GRAVES -
HIGGINBOtHAM - ALVES, 1600-1700 in Old Virginia; I have not connected them
directly to a royal line.
Questions how can these folks have become so prominent and marry so well if
they didn't have a connection.
josie
At 05:04 PM 12/1/98 -0800, you wrote:
>OK all of you lurkers out there.
>Listen to me.
>I know you have been put off by one thing or another and you feel
>unwelcome here.But I want you to do something.On December 3, I want
>you all to post a query or a short message about a medieval ancestor.
>
jb...@digital.net
216 Beach Park Lane
Cape Canaveral, FL 32920-5003
Home of The *HARRISON* Repository & *MY FAMILY*
http://moon.ouhsc.edu/rbonner/harintro.htm
My Family WWW: http://moon.ouhsc.edu/rbonner/index.htm
LINDSAY & HARRISON Surnames & CSA-HISTORY Roots Mail List
Data Managed by beautiful daughter Becky Bass Bonner and me, Josephine
Lindsay Bass
Mike
Cristopher Nash a écrit dans le message ...
>Dear "Mike",
>
>This is an intriguing genealogy. I wonder - might we have an idea as to
>sources for it? C-à-d the 'là' in your 'voilà'!
>
>Many thanks.
>
>Cris
MTaHT
seigneur de Nevers paid hommage to the duc de Bourgogne (Burgundy).
Best wishes
Mike Talbot
William Addams Reitwiesner
>I'm not really a lurker, as I only just arrived, but since it's Dec. 3rd
>I'll try to accede to your suggestion.
>Not sure just which centuries are meant by medieval, and some questions
>which I have would deal with the 18th century (which I take to be too late
>for this group), but anyway:
>Since Burke's Peerage and probably other sources often do not list female
>children, it is often hard to find out who are the parents of a wife. For
>example, I have David Erskine, 9th Earl of Buchan, son of Henry Erskine, 3rd
>Lord Cardross (who died May 21, 1693), and Catherine Stewart. How could I
>find out if this Catherine is a "Royal" Stewart?
I don't know. She was the younger daughter and eventual coheiress of Sir
William Stewart of Kirkhill, in Linlithgowshire. There's supposed to be an
article on the Stewarts in Linlithgow in *The Stewart Magazine*, vol. III,
pp. 255-262, but I haven't seen the article.
William Addams Reitwiesner
wr...@erols.com
"Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc."
SETTIPANI
>Does anyone know the parents of Ermengarde De TONNERRE ( - 1090) who
>married William De NEVERS (1030 - 1100) and was the mother of Renaud II >De NEVERS?
The Ascendancy of Ermengarde of Tonnerre : Part I
The question about Nevers has raised up three answers, all of three
erroneous. As many - if not the most - answers about Early Middle Ages.
I will speak thereafter of Constantia of Provence (not Toulouse !).
Briefly, the problem is that nowhere a medieval source or a modern
scientific work is invoqued (and I don’t take in consideration the
triumphant ‘et voilà !’ of my french countryman or his pleasant ‘many
nights on internet’ or the Stuart, Weiss and so). So, the same mistakes
are conscenciously repeated. Most of dates are at best conjectural,
names are confusing, and genealogies dubious or false. The genealogy of
the counts of Tonnerre was much debatted, notably by E. Petit, M.
Chaume, J. Laurent, C. Bouchard, J.-N. Mathieu. I give the simplest -and
the best- presentation :
1 Ermengardis (Ermengarde), m. Wilhelm (Guillaume, William) of Nevers.
2 Renhard II (Renard), count of Tonnerre ...1002-1039... (b. c. 993, d.
c. 1040).
3 Helvisa (Heilwig, Helvise, Heloise), fl. 1018.
4 Milo (Milon) IV, count of Tonnerre ...993..., d. bef. 1002.
5 Ermengardis (Ermengarde), widow of Herbert IV of Vermandois, d. aft.
1018.
8 Milo III, count of Tonnerre ...975-980..., d. c. 987.
9 Engeltrudis (Engeltrude), fl. 980.
16 Wido I (Guy), count of Tonnerre, d.bef. 975 (958 ?).
17 Adela (Adele), widow 975.
32 ? Renhard I, count of Tonnerre ...890-896...
64 Milo II, count of Langres & Tonnerre ...887...
65 Adela, widow 902.
Sources : many nights on Cartularies and ...
no 1 (Gesta Pontif., p. 398-402) ; no 2 (cart. Yonne, no 94 ; E. Petit,
Hist. ducs Bourg., II, p. 428-9) ; no 3 (E. Petit, II, p. 428-9) ; no 4
(cart. Yonne, no 80, 81, 94) ; no 5 (cart. Yonne, no 81) ; no 8 (cart.
Yonne, no 76, cart. St-Benoit, no 61) ; no 9 (cart. Yonne, no 76) ; no
16 (cart. Yonne, no 94, cart. Cluny, II, no 1044 ?) ; no 17 (cart.
St-Benoit, no 61, cart. Cluny, no 625 ?) ; no 32 (Cart. Montieramey, n°
12) ; no 64 (cart. Yonne, no 94, dipl. Charles III, 887, cart.
St-Benigne, no 154) ; no 65 (cart. St-Benigne, no 154).
Cartulaire general de l’Yonne, ed. M. Quantin, vol. I, Auxerre, 1854.
Chartes et documents de Saint-Benigne de Dijon, t. II (1943), éd. G.
Chevrier & M. Chaume, t. I (1986), éd. R. Folz & J. Marilier.
Arthur Giry, Documents carolingiens de l’abbaye de Montieramey, Etudes
d’histoire du moyen age dediees a G. Monod, Paris, 1896, p. 107-136.
Gesta Pontificum Autissiodorensium, ed. M. Duru, Auxerre, 1850.
Recueil des actes de Charles III le Simple, roi de France (893-923), 2
vol., ed. P. Lauer, Paris 1940-9.
Recueil des chartes de l’abbaye de de Cluny (802-1300), Paris, 6 vol.,
1876-1903, éd. A. Bernard et A. Bruel.
Recueil des chartes de l'abbaye de Saint-Benoit-sur-Loire, ed. M. Prou
et A. Vidier, vol. I, Paris, 1900.
SETTIPANI
The ancestry of Helvisa (no 3) is unknown, but I suppose her a niece of
Hardoin, bishop of Noyon (1015-1027) (M. Chaume believed she was a
sister of his). Hardoin is brother of Garnier and son of Robert of
Croyes. Probably they are issued of Waltharius (Gauthier, Walter), count
of Valois, Amiens and Vexin (d. c. 992/8), grandson of the caroligian
Helvisa.
The family of Ermengardis (no 5), widow of Herbert, not the reverse, is
not « Bar-sur-Seine » (one misunderstanding hypothesis of E. Petit :
such a dynasty does not exist at this time). She was, I think, the
daughter of Alberic II of Macon and his second wife.
Engeltrudis (no 9) is certainly, as showed by E. Petit, of Brienne
family. She was more probably the sister (not daughter) of Engelbert I
and Gau(s)bert. May be they are the nephews of Engeltrudis, viscountess
of Chalon and the posterity of Gausbert of Nevers, grandson of an
Engeltrudis.
The family of Adela (no 17) is not identified. Her name and her
granddaughter’s, Liedgardis, point to Vermandois. But the name
Liedgardis come perhaps via Engeltrudis : Engeltrudis of Chalon was
probably mother of Liedgardis of Dijon. So, the best solution was that
of M. Chaume, the countess Adela is the same that Adela, sister Leotald
of Macon, who make an important donation in 958 for the soul of a Wido,
may be the count of Tonnerre.
Renard (no 32) is not attested as member of the family. He is named as a
count in a trial about Tonnerrois and fit at the good place for the
missing generation in the family (to justify Renard II’s name, wich was
no more inherited from a pseudo ‘Bar-sur-Seine’ dynasty, and because
Milo II’s daughter was a Ren-trude).
Last, Adela (no 65) : if her son was really a Renhard, she was undoubtly
the sister of Renhard and Manasses I of Auxerre. The family’s origin is
Lotharingian.
Bibliography :
C. Bouchard, Sword, Miter, and Cloister. Nobility and the church in
Burgundy, 980-1198, Londres 1987.
M. Chaume, Les origines du duche de Bourgogne, vol. I, Dijon, 1925.
M. Chaume, Recherches d’Histoire Chretienne et medievale, 1947,
p.260-277.
J. Laurent, L’origine du comté de bar-sur-Seine, Annales de Bourgogne ,
(1951), p. 172-180.
J.-N. Mathieu, Recherches sur les premiers comtes de Tonnerre et de
Bar-sur-Seine, Bulletin de la société d’archéologie et d’histoire du
Tonnerois , 47 (1994), p. 21-29.
E. Petit, Histoire des ducs de Bourgogne de la race capétienne, 6 vol.,
Paris, 1885-1898.
C. Settipani, Les origines maternelles du comte de Bourgogne
Otte-Guillaume, Annales de Bourgogne, 66 (1994), p. 5-63.
C. Settipani, Les comtes d’Anjou et leurs alliances aux Xe et XIe
siècles, dans K.S.B. Keats-Rohan (ed.), Family trees and the Roots of
Politics, Woodbridge, 1997, p. 211-267.
C. Settipani, Les Widonides : le destin d’une famille aristocratique
franque du VIe au Xe siècle, memoire de D.E.A., Paris Sorbonne, 1998.