five descent-lines from Mohammed "The Prophet of Islam"

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David Hughes

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Apr 9, 2004, 1:16:12 AM4/9/04
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five descent-lines from Mohammed "The Prophet of Islam"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mohammed "The Prophet of Islam", d632
=1 Khadija [her 3rd =]
=2 Sauda
=3 Aisha, dau of Abu-Bakr, [1st] Caliph 632-634;
=4 Hafsah, dau of Umar, [Omar], [2nd] Caliph 634-644
=5 Zawdah [Zainab], dau of Umar [Omar], [2nd] Caliph
=6 Salaina
=7 Mabiba
=8 Djuwairiya
=9 Safiya
=10 Maimouna
=11 Marie
=12 Raihana
issue:
(a) Ruqayyah [Roccija]; = Uthman [Othman], [3rd] Caliph 644-656
(b) Kulthum, = Utayba, son of Abu Lahab
(c) Fatimah; = Ali, [4th] Caliph 656-661
etc
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LINE 1:
01. Mohammed "The Prophet of Islam", d632
02. Roccija
= Othman, [3rd] Caliph 644-656
03. Aisha [or dau of Muawiya, Caliph 661-680]
= Marwan I ben Hakim, Caliph 683-5
04. name, sis of Abd-al-Malik, Caliph 685-705
= Muza ben Nasar [Nuseir], conqueror
05. Abd-al-Aziz [ibn Musa], d717
06. Aisha [or dau of Abdul Yazid al-Wallid Umayyade]
= Fortun ibn Cassio
07. Muza ibn Fortun, governor of Saragoza, d788
08. Muza ibn Muza, governor of Saragoza, d863
= Assona Iniguez de Pampelune
09. Lope [ibn Musa ibn Musa], gov of Saragoza (875)
= Ayab al Bulatiya
10. Auria [Aurea] (dau)
= Fortun Garces "el Monje" of Pampelune
11. Onega
= Abdallah, Emir of Spain 848-912, son of Muhammad I, Caliph, in
Spain
12. Zayd
13. Zaydan ibn Zayd [Zedao Zada]
14. Zaira
= Lovesendo Ramirez de Leon
15. Abu-Nazir Lovesendiz, Cide de Leon
= Unisco Godinez des Asturias
16. Hermigio Abunazar de Leon
= Vivili Trutesendiz
17. Adosinda (dau)
= Pelaio Gutierriz da Silva
18. Fernao Paes da Cunha, Senor de Tabua, he had a brother, Guterre
Paes [Aldarete] da Silva, governor of Portugal 1082, see LINE
= Mor Uzbertiz
19. Lourenco Fernandes, Senor de Tabua
= Sancha Lourence de Maceira
20. Mor Lourenco da Cunha
= Ourigo da Nobrega
21. Maria Ouriguez
= Pero Rodriguez de Cambra
22. Martim Pires de Alvim, Senhor da Honra de Alvim, d1334
= Margarida Pires Ribeiro
23. Joao Pires de Alvim, Senhor da Honra de Alvim
= Branca Pires Coelho
24. Leonor Anes de Alvim
= Nunio Alvarez Pereira
25. Beatriz Pereira (d1420)
= Alfonso de Braganza
26. Isabel de Braganza (1402-1465)
= Juan de Aviz
27. Isabel de Aviz, Infanta of Portugal (1428-1496)
= Juan de Castile
28. Isabella I, Queen of Castile (1451-1504)
= Fernando
29. Juana "La Loca" ["Mad Joan"]
= Philip of Hapsburg
etc
ancestors of Queen Victoria
descent to Queen Elizabeth
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LINE 2A:
01. Mohammed "The Prophet of Islam", d632
= Kadidja, dau of Khuwaylid
02. Kalthum (dau)
= Utayba, son of Abu Lahab
03. dau [or dau of Marwan [& wife Aisha], son of Hakim, son of
Abu-el-Asis]
= Yazid II, Caliph 720-724, son of Abd al-Malik, Caliph 685-705
04. Hisham, Caliph, in Syria, 724-743
05. Muawiyah d743
06. Abd er-Rahman I, Emir of Spain, d788
07. Hisham I, Emir of Spain, d796
08. Hakam I, Emir, d822
09. Abd-er-Rahman II, Emir, d852
10. Muhammed I, Caliph, in Spain, d886
11. Abdallah I, Emir of Spain 848-912
= Onega Fortunez
12. Zayd [ibn Abdallah]
13. Zaydan
14. Zaira
= Lovesendo, son of Fethe, son of Abeth al-Hasani, son of the
Idrissid, al-Hasan al-Hajjam, son of Muhammed, son of al-Kassim, son
of Idris II (792-828), son of Idris I (d792), son of Abdullah, son of
al-Hasan al-Muthanna, son of al-Hasan (625-670), whose mother was
Fatima, dau of Mohammed "The Prophet of Islam"
15. Abu-Nazir Lovesendiz de Leon
= Unisco Godinez des Asturies
16. Hermigio Abunazar de Leon
= Vivili Trutesendiz
17. Adosinda (dau)
= Pelaio Gutierriz da Silva
18. Guterre Paes [Aldarete] da Silva, governor of Portugal 1082
(1030-1110), his bro was Fernao Paes da Cunha, Senor de Tabua, see [#
18] LINE-1
19. Pelaio Gutierriz da Silva, Senhor de Froilao (1061-1141)
= Urraca Rabaldiz de Ribeiradio [his 2nd =]
20. Gomez Paes da Silva, Senhor da Honra e Torre de Silva (1131)
= Urraca Nunes Velho
21. Pelaio Gomez Bugalho da Silva, Senhor da Honra e Torre de Silva
(1167-1258)
= Maria Fernandez de Zobra
22. Gomez Paes Bugalho da Silva, Senhor da Honora e Torre de Silva
= Mecia Martins Dade
23. Joao Gomez da Silva, Senhor da Honora e Torre de Silva
24. Ayres Gomez o Grande da Silva, Senhor da Honora e Torre de Silva
= Urraca Mendes Tenorio [his 2nd =]
25. Alonso de Silva, Senor de Barcience (1370-1430)
= Guiomar de Menezes
26. Juan de Silva, Conde de Cifuentes
= Ines de Ribera
27. Francisca de Silva
= Honorato de Mendoza
28. Garcia de Mendoza
= Isabel Briceno
29. Maria de Mendoza
= Wratislaw von Pernstein
30. Polyxena (1566-1642)
= Zdenko Adalbert Lobkowicz
31. Wenzel Franz Lobkowicz (1609-1677)
= Augusta Sophia von Sulzbach
32. Ferdinand Augustus Leopold, Baron von Lobkowicz (1655-1715)
33. Maria Ludovika
= Anselm Franz von Thurn & Taxis
34. Marie-Augusta (1706-1756)
= Karl Alexander von Wurttemberg
35. Friedrich II Eugen, Duke of Wurttemberg, d1797
= Dorothea von Hohenzollern
36. Ludwig, Duke of Wurttemberg, d1817
= Henriette of Nassau-Weilburg
37. Alexander, Duke of Teck, d1885
= Claudine Rhedey
38. Francis, Duke of Teck, d1900
= Marie Adelaide of Britain
39. Mary of Teck (1867-1953)
= George V, King of Britain
40. George VI Albert, King of Britain
41. Elizabeth II, Queen
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LINE 2B:
01. Mohammed "The Prophet of Islam", d632
02. Fatima
= Ali [ibn abu-Talib], Caliph [in Iraq] 656-661
03. Hasan (625-670)
04. al-Hasan al-Muthanna
05. Abdullah
06. Idris I (d792)
07. Idris II, 792-828
08. al-Kassim
09. Muhammed
10. al-Hasan al-Hajjam
11. Abeth al-Hasani
12. Fethe
13. Lovesendo
= Zaira, see generation # 14, Line-2A (above)
14. Abu-Nazir Lovesendiz de Leon, # 15 generation in Line-2A (above)
see Line 2A (above)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LINE 3:
01. Mohammed "The Prophet of Islam", d632
02. Fatima (dau)
= Ali [ibn abu-Talib], Caliph [in Iraq] 656-661
03. Al-Husein (626-680), Imam of the Shi'ites, Iraq
04. Ali Zain al-Abidin (653-713), imam in Iraq
05. Mohammed al-Bakhir (681-733), imam in Iraq
06. Djafar al-Sadikh (708-765), imam in Iraq
07. Ishmael ibn Gafar (736-760)
08. Mohammed [ibn Ishmael]
09. Ishmael
10. Ahmed [ibn Ishmael]
11. Obeidallah al-Mahdi (846-934), Caliph, in Egypt
12. Mohammed al-Khaim (873-946), Caliph
13. Ishmael al-Munsur (901-952), Caliph, in Egypt
14. Dihja (dau)
= Qaris [Kharis] ibn Abbad, khadi in Seville, Spain
15. Ishmael [ibn Qaris], khadi in Seville
16. Mohammed I abul-Khasim (980-1042), hachib of Seville
17. Abbad al-Mutadid (1010-1069), "Emir of Spain"
18. Mohammed II [al-Mutamid, ? bro of # 17?] (1040-1095), Emir of
Seville
19. Zayda (dau)
= Alfonso VI, King of Castile
20. Sancha
= Rodrigo "El Franco" Gonsalez de Lara
21. Rodrigo Rodriguez de Lara
= Garcia de Azagra
22. Sancha de Lara
= Gonzalo [II] Ruiz Giron (d1234)
23. Maria Gonzalez Ruiz
= Guillen Perez de Guzman
24. Maria (d1262)
= Alfonso IX, King of Castile
25. Beatrix
= Affonso III, King of Portugal
26. Dionisiso, King of Portugal, d1325
= Isabel of Aragon
27. Affonso IV, King of Portugal, d1357
28. Maria (1313-1357)
= Alfonso IX, King of Castile
29. Pedro "The Cruel", King of Castile, d1368
30. Isabelle (1355-1394)
= Edmund, Duke of York, England
31. Richard, Earl of Cambridge, d1415
= Anne Mortimer, heiress of the Clarence line
32. Richard, Duke of York
= Cecily Neville
33. Edward IV, King of England 1461-1483
etc
descent to Queen Elizabeth
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LINE 4:
01. Mohammed "The Prophet of Islam", d632
02. Fatimah
= Ali
03. Hasan (d670)
= Zhadah Kandaria
04. Husein
05. Zohra "al-Lakhmi"
= Abu Farisi, descended from ancient Arabic Royalty and the early
kings of Yemen
06. Na'im al-Lakhmi
07. Na'im al-Lakhmi
08. Ittaf (fl. 742)
09. Amir
10. Aslan
11. Amir
12. Abbad
13. Qarais
14. Ishmael, Iman of Seville
15. Kadi Abul-Kasim, aka Muhammad I (d1042)
16. Abu Amir Abbad, aka Muhammad al-Mu'tamid (d1068)
17. Abul-Kasim Muhammad [ibn Abbad al Mu'tamid] (d1095), Emir of
Seville
= I'tamid
18. Zaida (1075-1107), bapt & renamed Isabel
=(1098) Alfonso VI, King of Castile-Leon
etc.
descent to Queen Elizabeth
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LINE 5:
01. Mohammed "The Prophet of Islam", d632
02. Kalthum
= Utayba, son of Abu Lahab
03. dau [or dau of Marwan [& wife Aisha], son of Hakim, son of
Abu-el-Asis]
= Abd al-Malik
04. Abdul Yazid al-Wallid
= Egilom, dau of Rodrigo de Balthes, a Visi-Gothic Spanish prince
05. Aisha
= Fortun ibn Cassio
06. Muza ibn Fortun, governor of Saragoza, d788
07. Muza ibn Muza, governor of Saragoza, d863
= Assona Iniguez de Pampelune
08. Lope [ibn Musa ibn Musa], gov of Saragoza (875)
= Ayab al Bulatiya
09. Auria [Aurea]
= Fortun of Pampelune
10. Onega
= Aznar Sanchez de Larraun [son of Sancho Garces of Navarre &
Leogundis Ordonez de Asturias] [her 2nd =]
12. Toda
= Sancho I Garces, King of Pamplona [& Navarre], d925
13. Garcia II Sanches, King of Navarre
etc
descent to Queen Elizabeth
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
compiled by David Hughes, Rdavi...@AOL.com
comments welcome

Leo van de Pas

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Apr 9, 2004, 3:05:38 AM4/9/04
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I think this is exciting and interesting, but I feel uneasy when Zayda
appears again as daughter instead of daughter-in-law, breaking the line. But
how do the other lines stand up? Does anyone know?
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas

Todd A. Farmerie

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Apr 9, 2004, 4:11:13 AM4/9/04
to
David Hughes wrote:
> five descent-lines from Mohammed "The Prophet of Islam"

I will limit my comments to the critical regions. This should
not be taken to imply that hte rest of the presented pedigrees
are valid.

> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> LINE 1:

> 03. Aisha [or dau of Muawiya, Caliph 661-680]
> = Marwan I ben Hakim, Caliph 683-5
> 04. name, sis of Abd-al-Malik, Caliph 685-705

Just because a muslim woman is a sister of a Caliph does not
imply that she had the same mother as the Caliph. This was not a
culture that practiced monogamy.

> = Muza ben Nasar [Nuseir], conqueror
> 05. Abd-al-Aziz [ibn Musa], d717
> 06. Aisha [or dau of Abdul Yazid al-Wallid Umayyade]

Why the "or dau. of" somebody else? Simple. It is because these
connections are nothing but groundless attempts to force a
Muhammadan lineage onto the Banu Qasi, which have no such
documented descent.

> = Fortun ibn Cassio

The only source even close to contemporary (and it is hundreds of
years later) gives a brief account of Cassius converting to
Islam, then says "he had Fortun and Fortun had Muza ibn Fortun
ibn Qasi". It is clear that Fortun was known to the pedigree
compiler simply as the patronymic of Muza, and Qasi was the
founder. At least one individual who studied this was not even
willing to accept that Fortun was son of Qasi, but rather viewed
Muza ibn Fortun ibn Qasi (the first historical member of the
family) as Muza son of Fortun, of the line of Cassius. (For
analogy, just because an Irishman is found as Murchad MacDoughal
O'Brien doesn't mean that Murchad was son of Brien.) More
important that whether Fortun was son or simply of the family of
Cassius, is the relevant point to this discussion - no mention is
made of his wife. None. Not in any source with any claim to
historical basis. At a later time, someone thought it important
for the Banu Qasi to be of Arab muslim descent - either for
genealogical purposes or to explain their use of muslim names,
but neither of these motivations proceeded from actual evidence
that such a marriage took place.

> 07. Muza ibn Fortun, governor of Saragoza, d788
> 08. Muza ibn Muza, governor of Saragoza, d863
> = Assona Iniguez de Pampelune
> 09. Lope [ibn Musa ibn Musa], gov of Saragoza (875)
> = Ayab al Bulatiya
> 10. Auria [Aurea] (dau)
> = Fortun Garces "el Monje" of Pampelune

There are no sources which identify the parentage of Oria, who is
only known by name from one source. The name Awriya appears
among the Banu Qasi, and this has led to speculation of a
connection, yet this name (like Fortun and Lupe) is part of the
Romano-Gothic heritage of the region, and would be expected to be
present in the families, regardless of intermarriage.

> 11. Onega
> = Abdallah, Emir of Spain 848-912, son of Muhammad I, Caliph, in
> Spain
> 12. Zayd
> 13. Zaydan ibn Zayd [Zedao Zada]

This is Chico's bag, but I was under the impression he did not
think the Abdallah atop the legendary Maya pedigree was the Emir
of Spain. Whoever one places atop, the conclusion cannot be
reached without a degree of speculation and hypothetical
connections, the likelihood of which I am withholding judgement
on until I see it all laid out.

> 14. Zaira
> = Lovesendo Ramirez de Leon
> 15. Abu-Nazir Lovesendiz, Cide de Leon
> = Unisco Godinez des Asturias
> 16. Hermigio Abunazar de Leon
> = Vivili Trutesendiz
> 17. Adosinda (dau)
> = Pelaio Gutierriz da Silva

Mattoso, in his study of this family, gives Ermigio no such daughter.

> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> LINE 2A:

> 11. Abdallah I, Emir of Spain 848-912
> = Onega Fortunez

Same problem as above here.

> 12. Zayd [ibn Abdallah]
> 13. Zaydan
> 14. Zaira
> = Lovesendo, son of Fethe,

Above you call him Lovesendo Ramirez (son of Ramiro) and here son
of Fethe. You can't have him be both. Again, as to whether the
Lovesendo atop the Maya pedigree is the same as the son of Fethe
is, as far as I have seen so far, a deduction rather than being
directly attested.

> son of Abeth al-Hasani, son of the
> Idrissid, al-Hasan al-Hajjam, son of Muhammed, son of al-Kassim, son
> of Idris II (792-828), son of Idris I (d792), son of Abdullah, son of
> al-Hasan al-Muthanna, son of al-Hasan (625-670), whose mother was
> Fatima, dau of Mohammed "The Prophet of Islam"

The number of speculations that go into this line is even
greater. Again, until you see it all laid out (presumably in
Chico's much anticipated summary book), it is rash to simply
reproduce this line.

> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> LINE 3:


> 18. Mohammed II [al-Mutamid, ? bro of # 17?] (1040-1095), Emir of
> Seville
> 19. Zayda (dau)

Zaida was daughter-in-law of Muhammad, not daughter.

> = Alfonso VI, King of Castile
> 20. Sancha

Sancha was daughter of Alfonso VI by Queen Isabella. That Queen
Isabella was identical to Zayda has been speculated, but is far
from certain.

> = Rodrigo "El Franco" Gonsalez de Lara
> 21. Rodrigo Rodriguez de Lara
> = Garcia de Azagra

Rodrigo Rodrigues de Lara was a genealogical invention, created
by Salazar y Castro as a placeholder betweer two Rodriguez
sisters, speculated to be de Lara, and El Franco, above, who was
a generation too early to be their father. In fact, these
sisters were children of Rodrigo Fernandez de Torono, and were
not Lara at all. By Rodrigo Gonzalez, the Infanta Sancha's
descent is extremely limited (in the fourth generation, there was
only one known individual Armengol Diaz de Haro).

> 22. Sancha de Lara
> = Gonzalo [II] Ruiz Giron (d1234)


> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> LINE 4:

> 17. Abul-Kasim Muhammad [ibn Abbad al Mu'tamid] (d1095), Emir of
> Seville
> = I'tamid
> 18. Zaida (1075-1107), bapt & renamed Isabel
> =(1098) Alfonso VI, King of Castile-Leon
> etc.

Likewise leading to to Zaida through her father-in-law, this is
equally flawed.

> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> LINE 5:
> 01. Mohammed "The Prophet of Islam", d632
> 02. Kalthum
> = Utayba, son of Abu Lahab
> 03. dau [or dau of Marwan [& wife Aisha], son of Hakim, son of
> Abu-el-Asis]
> = Abd al-Malik
> 04. Abdul Yazid al-Wallid
> = Egilom, dau of Rodrigo de Balthes, a Visi-Gothic Spanish prince
> 05. Aisha
> = Fortun ibn Cassio

It hardly seems legitimate to give this same invented woman two
entirely different pedigrees, and then count them both among your
5 descents.

> 06. Muza ibn Fortun, governor of Saragoza, d788
> 07. Muza ibn Muza, governor of Saragoza, d863
> = Assona Iniguez de Pampelune
> 08. Lope [ibn Musa ibn Musa], gov of Saragoza (875)
> = Ayab al Bulatiya
> 09. Auria [Aurea]
> = Fortun of Pampelune
> 10. Onega
> = Aznar Sanchez de Larraun [son of Sancho Garces of Navarre &
> Leogundis Ordonez de Asturias] [her 2nd =]

There is no evidence to suggest the name of Sancho's wife. While
a sister of Alfonso III married a prince of Navarre, no source
tells which prince, and Sancho seems among the less likely.

> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> compiled by David Hughes, Rdavi...@AOL.com
> comments welcome

Remember when you draft your response, you welcomed comments.

taf

Francisco Antonio Doria

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Apr 9, 2004, 8:14:00 AM4/9/04
to

Let me state again my views:

- The Maia family is descended from Zahadon, married
to Aragunte. Zahadon (att. 933) is Zahadon ibn Halafi,
and I identify him to Zahadon ``al Umawi'' attested
through a son in 1006/7.

- There is a Nasr/Nasrum (Nazeron) attested at about
the same time, which I take to be Zahadon's son.

- I consider Zahadon to be descended from the
al-Habibi line (settled in al-Andaluz) that originates
in Caliph al-Walid (``rey Aboali'' in 13th century
texts).

- I identify the first Lord of the Maia to Nasrum ibn
Leodesindo ibn Firhi [Nazeron [ibn] Leodesindo ibn
Ferhe]. Firhi is a very characteristic Quraysh name,
re Lévi Provençal. And due to several circumstantial
data supplemented by documentary evidence, I
cautiously suggest that the Maia family was
agnatically descended from the Idrissids.

Let me finish my book, please; I'll be working on it
this long holiday (this is Holy Week in Brazil).

fa


--- "Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com>

=== message truncated ===

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David Hughes

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Apr 9, 2004, 12:25:23 PM4/9/04
to
corrections: guess I should not have typed that up so late at night,
but Line 5 was suppose to show descent from Mohammed to the Umayyids
of Spain instead of what I typed up for Line 5 in my sleep
LINE 1:

01. Mohammed "The Prophet of Islam", d632
02. Roccija
= Othman, [3rd] Caliph 644-656
03. Aisha [or dau of Muawiya, Caliph 661-680]
= Marwan I ben Hakim, Caliph 683-5
04. name, sis of Abd-al-Malik, Caliph 685-705
= Muza ben Nasar [Nuseir], conqueror
05. Abd-al-Aziz [ibn Musa], d717
= Egilom, dau of Rodrigo de Balthes, the Visi-Gothic King of Spain
[her 1st =] [she =2 Abdul Yazid al-Wallid, son of Abd al-Malik
Umayyade]
06. Aisha, dau of 1st =
= Fortun ibn Cassio
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LINE 5:
01. Mohammed "The Prophet of Islam", d632
02. Kalthum
= Utayba, son of Abu Lahab
03. dau
= Abd-al-Malik, Caliph [at Damascus, Syria] 685-705, son of Marwan I,
Caliph [at Damascus, Syria] 684-5, [& wife Aisha], son of Al-Hakim,
son of Abu-el-Asis, son of Umayyah, from whom the "Umayyids" derive
their name
04. Hisham I, Caliph [at Damascus, Syria] 724-743, his bro was Abdul
Yazid al-Wallid, 2nd husband of Egilom, dau of Rodrigo de Balthes, the
late Visi-Gothic King of Spain
05. Muawiya, came to Spain with uncle
06. Abd-ar-Rahman I, Emir of Cordova
07. Hisham I, Emir of Cordova, d799
08. Al-Hakam I, Emir of Cordova, d822
09. Abd-ar-Rahman II, Emir Cordova, d852
10. Muhammed I, Emir of Cordova, d886
11. Abd-Allah, Emir of Cordova, d912
12. Muhammed
13. Abd-al-Rahman III, Emir of Cordova, d961
14. Al-Hakam II, Emir of Cordova, Caliph [at Cordova]
15. Muhammed
16. Abd-al-Rahman IV, Emir of Cordova, d1022
17. Hisham III, [last] Emir of Cordova, d1031
18. Almoravita
= Velo Ingiguez
19. Ingio Velez
20. Ladrono Iniguez
21. Velo Ladronez
22. Juan Velez
23. Teresa
= Fernando Ruiz
24. Teresa
= Lope Ortiz de Zuniga
25. Fortunio Lopez
26. Maria
= Pedro Ruiz
27. Gonsalo
28. Fernando Gonsalez
= Aldonza Ramirez
29. Maria de Henestrona
= Juan Garcias de Padilla
30. Maria de Padilla
= Pedro "The Cruel", King of Castile-Leon
31. Isabel
= Edmund of Langley
etc
---------------------------------------------------------------------------david
hughes
Rdavi...@AOL.com

Don Stone

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Apr 9, 2004, 6:57:53 PM4/9/04
to
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:

> David Hughes wrote:
>> 07. Muza ibn Fortun, governor of Saragoza, d788
>> 08. Muza ibn Muza, governor of Saragoza, d863
>> = Assona Iniguez de Pampelune
>> 09. Lope [ibn Musa ibn Musa], gov of Saragoza (875)
>> = Ayab al Bulatiya
>> 10. Auria [Aurea] (dau)
>> = Fortun Garces "el Monje" of Pampelune
>
> There are no sources which identify the parentage of Oria, who is only
> known by name from one source. The name Awriya appears among the Banu
> Qasi, and this has led to speculation of a connection, yet this name
> (like Fortun and Lupe) is part of the Romano-Gothic heritage of the
> region, and would be expected to be present in the families, regardless
> of intermarriage.

Christian Settipani's latest book, cited below, has a section (pp. 112-116)
entitled "Aurea, épouse de Fortun," which contains a review of previous work
and an analysis of onomastic and marriage patterns. He presents three
plausible hypotheses about Aurea's ancestry, only one of which gives her
recent Muslim (Banu Qasi) ancestry.

-- Don Stone

Settipani, Christian. 2004. _La noblesse du Midi carolingien: Etudes sur
quelques grandes familles d’Aquitaine et du Languedoc du IXe au XIe siècles
(Toulousain, Périgord, Limousin, Poitou, Auvergne)._ Oxford: Unit for
Prosopographical Research. Occasional Publications, Vol. 5.

Todd A. Farmerie

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Apr 11, 2004, 4:14:57 PM4/11/04
to
David Hughes wrote:
> LINE 5:
> 01. Mohammed "The Prophet of Islam", d632

> 17. Hisham III, [last] Emir of Cordova, d1031


> 18. Almoravita
> = Velo Ingiguez
> 19. Ingio Velez
> 20. Ladrono Iniguez
> 21. Velo Ladronez
> 22. Juan Velez

It took me a while to find this, until I realized it was the Guevara
line. The most recent work I have seen on the family, that of Martinez
Ruiz, opens his article with a mention of the conflicting early
generations of this family. He then gives his account, starting with
Don Vela, the grandfather of Vela Iniguez. (As an aside, the line from
Vela down is given in Turton, where he calls this woman Urraca
Almoravit, and comments that while the nickname Almoravit suggests
muslim ancestry, he had been unable to find any indication of her
parentage.) Martinez Ruiz apparently rejects this marriage entirely,
instead showing Vela Iniguez married to Toda Lopez, daughter of Lope
Nunez de Viscaya, hence there appears to be no connection here either.


Martinez Ruiz, Julian. Filacion Troncal de los Senores de Guevara y
Onate. in Estudios Genealogicos, Heraldicos y Nobilarios en Honor de
Vicente Cadenas y Vicent. 1:511-24 (1978).

taf

ahme...@gmail.com

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May 13, 2019, 5:01:01 PM5/13/19
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You did a book on the Ancestry of evidence for Abu Nazir and lovesendes ? If so where can i buy it

taf

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May 15, 2019, 11:06:56 AM5/15/19
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On Monday, May 13, 2019 at 2:01:01 PM UTC-7, ahme...@gmail.com wrote:
> You did a book on the Ancestry of evidence for Abu Nazir and lovesendes ? If so where can i buy it

No, I didn't. Chico Doria did.

taf

ahme...@gmail.com

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May 15, 2019, 10:16:05 PM5/15/19
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Do you know where i can find it online ?

taf

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May 15, 2019, 10:47:16 PM5/15/19
to
On Wednesday, May 15, 2019 at 7:16:05 PM UTC-7, ahme...@gmail.com wrote:
> Do you know where i can find it online ?

No, I don't. It used to be available online for digital download or print-to-order, but I looked today and didn't find it. I don't know if it has been removed or I just didn't search the right place (I am on the road, so I don't have the precise details handy).

That being said, I see Mr. Doria's hypothesis as unpersuasive, with significant reliance on a key assumption that I think is deeply flawed.

taf

Andre Sijnesael

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May 19, 2019, 1:56:10 AM5/19/19
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I think these lines can't be proofed. It's not even sure if mohammed has ever lived. And I wouldn't be very proud to have such a murderer and war criminal als ancestor.

Op vrijdag 9 april 2004 07:16:12 UTC+2 schreef David Hughes:

taf

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May 19, 2019, 9:18:13 AM5/19/19
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On Saturday, May 18, 2019 at 10:56:10 PM UTC-7, Andre Sijnesael wrote:
> I think these lines can't be proofed.

Of the lines presented:

Line 1 involves two completely fictitious relationships, a hypothetical but unsupported relationship, a relationship that is in a primary source but seems chronologically impossible, an assumption that is entirely without foundation, a name's-the-same guess, and a legend known to be false. (other than that, it is spot on)

Line 2A involves two completely fictitious relationships (different ones), and the same guess based on a legend known to be false.

Line 2B involves straight guesswork, and a flawed core assumption

Line 3 involves a made-up relationship, two brothers appearing as father and son, a relationship that is an attempt to square the circle with conflicting primary sources, and a 'person' simply invented by a genealogist to link two people wrongly thought to be related.

Line 4 involves a made-up marriage, a 'traditional' descent, and the same confusion as the line before over conflicting sources

Line 5 is basically the same as the first part of line 1 - two made up marriages and an unsupported hypothesis.

taf

fado...@gmail.com

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Jun 13, 2019, 3:52:05 AM6/13/19
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I've written a book with the discussions Marshall Kirk, Nat Taylor and I had here around 2000. It's in Portuguese and was printed by Lulu (below the link). I try to separate three main kinds of facts:

- documented facts;
- consequences of documented facts;
- consequences plus some measure of speculation.

For example: it is documented that there is an individual named Nazar ibn Leodesindo ibn Firhi attested in the 10th century, C.E. I've identified that individual to Abunazar Lovesendes. Etc.

The book is:

https://www.lulu.com/shop/search.ep?keyWords=a+semente&type=

(Txs for calling my attention to this thread, Nestor Melo!)
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