Revised Post: C.P. Addition: Parentage of Margaret Neville, wife of Sir William Lucy, Knt.
Douglas Richardson
In December 2007 I posted evidence which showed that John Neville,
Knt., and his wife, Elizabeth Holand, daughter of Thomas Holand, 5th
Earl of Kent, had a daughter named Margaret Neville, which daughter
was living 17 January 1423. Specifically, I found evidence which
showed that Sir John Neville and his wife, Elizabeth Holand, had four
children in all, including three sons, Ralph, John, and Thomas, and
one daughter, Margaret. The evidence for the younger children is
found in Proceedings and Ordinances of the Privy Council of England,
edited by Sir Harris Nicolas, 3 (1834): 20. On that page, there is a
contemporary record dated 17 January 1423, which concerns the estate
of Elizabeth, widow of Sir John Neville. This record specifically
states that Lady Neville had three younger children, John, Thomas, and
Margaret, all
then living.
The item in question on page 20 may be found at the following weblink:
Although the item is in Latin, an abbreviated abstract in English can
be found on page v:
It reads as follows:
"17th January, 1 Henry VI. 1423. The feoffees of the deceased Lady
Neville of certain manors in the Counties of York, Nottingham, and
Surrey, having been examined, acknowledged that they were enfeoffed
thereof, for the purpose of paying the debts of the said Lady, forty
marks to her son John, =A320 to her son Thomas, and to her daughter
Margaret according to their discretion, and of making a re-enfeoffment
of the same to her son and heir." END OF QUOTE.
Since making my original post, I've since determined that Margaret
Neville, daughter of Sir John and Elizabeth named above, married
before 1424 William Lucy, Knt., of Richard's Castle, Herefordshire,
Woodcroft (in Luton), Bedfordshire, Dallington, Northamptonshire,
etc., son and heir of Walter Lucy, Knt., of Richard's Castile,
Woodcroft, Dallington, etc., by Eleanor, daughter and co-heiress of
Warin l'Arcedekne, Knt. This marriage is proved by Calendar of Patent
Rolls, 1422-1429 (1901): 322, 342 which shows that William Lucy, Knt.,
and his wife, Margaret Neville, received a grant of the castles,
lordships, and manors of Narberth and Pembrokeshire and St. Clears
Carmarthenshire in Wales for a term of 10 years from Edmund Mortimer,
5th Earl of March. Margaret Neville is identified in these records
as the kinswoman of Earl Edmund Mortimer. This information may be
found at the following weblinks:
http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/h6v1/body/Henry6vol1page0322.pdf
http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/h6v1/body/Henry6vol1page0342.pdf
Earl Edmund likewise gave William and Margaret the manor of Wick
Dive in Wicken), Northamptonshire for life in 1424 [Reference: VCH
Northampton 5 (2002): 413]. Below is the weblink for VCH Northampton:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=22792&strquery=%22William%20Lucy%22
I believe Margaret (Neville) Lucy was Earl Edmund's first cousin, she
being the same person as Margaret Neville, the daughter of Lady
Elizabeth Neville, who is mentioned in the 1423 record of the Privy
Council above mentioned. This Margaret Neville's mother, Elizabeth
(Holand) Neville, was the aunt of Earl Edmund Mortimer.
Interestingly, I find that the matter of the identify of Margaret
Neville, wife of William Lucy, Knt., was discussed in print back in
1878 by "Hermentrude" in Notes & Queries, 5th series, 9 (1878): 266.
Hermentrude states there that she found herself "confirmed by Harl.
MS. 807 in the conclusion" that Margaret Neville, wife of William
Lucy, was the daughter of Sir John Neville, by his wife, Elizabeth
Holand. Harleian MS. 807 is a collection of pedigrees by Robert
Glover, Somerset Herald. Unfortunately Hermentrude failed to quote
Harleian MS. 807. As such, I'm uncertain exactly what she saw in that
source. However, given her remarks, we may assume that she found a
record which specifically stated that Sir John Neville and his wife,
Elizabeth Holand, had a daughter, Margaret Neville, who married
William Lucy. Hermentrude's comments may be viewed at the following
weblink:
Hermentrude's remarks were followed in the same year by those of B.W.
Greenfield in Notes & Queries, 5th series, 9 (1878): 409-410. Mr.
Greenfield gave additional information regarding the identity of Sir
William Lucy, of Richard's Castle, Herefordshire, who he correctly
identified as the son and heir of Walter Lucy, Knt., by Eleanor,
daughter and co-heiress of Warin l'Arcedekne, Knt. Mr. Greenfield's
comments may be viewed at the following weblinks:
Neither Hermentrude or Mr. Greenfield provided a death date for
Margaret Neville, first wife of Sir William Lucy. Mr. Greenfield
correctly noted that Sir William Lucy married (2nd) Elizabeth Percy,
widow of Thomas Burgh (or Borough), Esq., of Gainsborough,
Lincolnshire, and (3rd) Margaret Fitz Lewis, daughter of Lewis John,
Knt., by Anne Montagu, Duchess of Exeter. Complete Peerage, 8
(1932): 252 (sub Lucy) indicates that Sir William Percy married his
second wife, Elizabeth Percy, before 1434, but gives no documentation
for this statement. However, Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1429-1436, pg.
340 indicates that Sir William Lucy and Elizabeth Percy were married
before 5 May 1434. Below is the weblink for that record:
http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/patentrolls/h6v2/body/Henry6vol2page0340.pdf
Thus, it appears that Margaret Neville, the first wife of Sir William
Lucy, died sometime between 5 May 1426 (when she was stated to be
living by the Patent Rolls cited above) and 5 May 1434 (when William
Lucy had already married his next wife).
The corrections/additions volume of Complete Peerage, 14 (1998): 457
notes that Sir William Lucy married (1st) Margaret Neville, "kinswoman
of the Earl of March." It cites as its source the Patent Rolls items
first cited above. However, no identification is provided there for
Margaret Neville's parentage, nor is the Earl of March in question
identified. On the basis of my research and Hermentrude's comments
back in 1878, I'm satisfied that Margaret Neville, wife of Sir William
Lucy, was the daughter of Sir John Neville, and his wife, Elizabeth
Holand. This parentage would readily explain Margaret's near kinship
to Edmund Mortimer, Earl of March.
Complete Peerage, 8 (1932): 262 (sub Lucy) identifies Sir William
Lucy's 2nd wife, Elizabeth Percy, as "daughter and co-heiress of Sir
Henry Percy, and Elizabeth Bruce his wife." Elizabeth Percy's mother
was actually Elizabeth Bardolf (not Bruce), she being the daughter of
William Bardolf, Knt., 4th Lord Bardolf. Sir William Lucy is
mentioned in the interesting article by Ralph A. Griffiths entitled
"Local Rivalries and National Politics: The Percies, the Nevills, and
the Duke of Exeter, 1452-55," which article appeared in Speculum, 43
(1968): 589-632. Sir William is there called Sir William Lucy, of
Gainsborough, Lincolnshire, which property he held in right of his
second wife, Elizabeth Percy, the heiress of that estate.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
t...@clearwire.net
Reposting as if the entire prior discussion had not occurred, and
crossposting to make sure people who choose not to read about medieval
genealogy have it thrust upon them anyhow. You see, he knows that any
responsible critic will remove the crosspost, and so at least that
other group will be able to appreciate his genius untainted by
reality.]
On May 18, 10:10 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
> The corrections/additions volume of Complete Peerage, 14 (1998): 457
> notes that Sir William Lucy married (1st) Margaret Neville, "kinswoman
> of the Earl of March." It cites as its source the Patent Rolls items
> first cited above. However, no identification is provided there for
> Margaret Neville's parentage, nor is the Earl of March in question
> identified. On the basis of my research and Hermentrude's comments
> back in 1878, I'm satisfied that Margaret Neville, wife of Sir William
> Lucy, was the daughter of Sir John Neville, and his wife, Elizabeth
> Holand.
Yes, you have already stated that, and I have already told you why you
are applying a hypocritical double standard in taking the word of the
author of children's books rather than bothering to figure out what
the actual source said: whether the conclusion depends on contemporary
evidence (which you demand from those who disagree with you, but
apparently not those whose interpretation happens to support your
latest guess), centuries-old tradition, rampant speculation,
deduction, or what. After all, if she could write such a book as
"Stephen Mainwaring's Wooing, With Other Fireside Tales", then she is
surely to be trusted when it comes to evaluating evidence with regard
to medieval genealogy.
taf
Douglas Richardson
As a followup to my earlier post today, I've copied below my current
file account of Sir William Lucy (c.1404-1460), whose first wife,
Margaret Neville, was the kinswoman of Edmund Mortimer, 5th Earl of
March.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + +
WILLIAM LUCY, Knt., of Richard’s Castle, Herefordshire, Gladley (in
Leighton Buzzard), Potsgrove, Woodcroft (in Luton), etc.,
Bedfordshire, Elerky (in Veryan), Cornwall, Howbridge (in Witham) and
Woodham Mortimer, Essex, Gaddesden (in Little Gaddesden) and
Wigginton, Hertfordshire, Newington, Kent, Dallington and Slapton,
Northamptonshire, Cotheridge, Ham Castle (in Clifton upon Teme),
Tenbury, Wychbold (in Dodderhill), etc., Worcestershire, etc., and, in
right of his 2nd wife, of Gainsborough, Lincolnshire, Captain of
Vernon Castle (Eure), 1435, Lieutenant of Vire, 1444, King’s knight,
son and heir, born about 1404 (aged 40 in 1444). He married (1st)
before 1424 (date of grant) MARGARET NEVILLE, daughter of John
Neville, Knt., of Sutton (in Galtres), Yorkshire, by Elizabeth,
daughter of Thomas de Holand, Knt., K.G., 2nd Earl of Kent . They had
no issue. Sometime before 18 Jan. 1424/5 Edmund Mortimer, 5th Earl of
March, granted the castles, lordships, and manors of Narberth and
Pembrokeshire and St. Clears, Carmarthenshire in Wales to William and
his wife, Margaret, for a term of 10 years. In 1424 the same earl
likewise granted them the manor of Wick Dive (in Wicken),
Northamptonshire for life. His wife, Margaret, was living 5 May
1426. In 1430 he was bound for service in France, he being in the
retinue of Humphrey Stafford, Earl of Stafford. He married (2nd)
before 5 May 1434 ELIZABETH PERCY, widow of Thomas Burgh, Esq., of
Gainsborough, Lincolnshire, and daughter and co-heiress of Henry
Percy, Knt. (nicknamed “of Atholl”), of Harthill, Yorkshire, by
Elizabeth, daughter of William Bardolf, Knt., 4th Lord Bardolf. She
was born about 1412 (aged 20 in 1432). They had no issue. In 1440 he
owed £166 13s. 4d. to John Fleet, Gent., of Gainsborough, Lincolnshire
and Thomas Dounton, Citizen and mercer of London, which debt was still
unpaid in 1443. As “of Wycken [Wicken], N’Hants,” he was pardoned
outlawry for debt in 1440. In 1443 he was doing frontier garrison
work under Thomas Scales, Lord Scales. He seems to have returned to
England in 1445. From 1446 onwards he was justice of the peace for
Buckinghamshire and other counties, and commissioner in several local
matters. In 1447 he was granted special livery of his maternal
inheritance in England, Wales, and the March of Wales “for his good
service in France and Normandy at his own cost.” In 1453 he was chief
commissioner for the suppression of factious riots arising out of the
quarrel between Lord Egremont and the Nevilles. His wife, Elizabeth,
died 28 Sept. (or 16 October) 1455. He married (3rd) before 6 October
1453 [sic] (date of charter) MARGARET FITZ LEWIS, daughter of Lewis
John, Knt., of West Horndon, Dunton, Ingrave, and Bishop’s Ockendon
(in Cranham), Essex, Citizen and vintner of London, by his 2nd wife,
Anne, daughter of John Montagu, Knt., K.G., 3rd Earl of Salisbury.
They had no issue. SIR WILLIAM LUCY died 10 July 1460, being slain on
the royalist side at the Battle of Northampton. Administration on his
estate was granted 29 July 1460. His widow, Margaret, married (2nd)
about 1463 JOHN WAKE, Esq., of Great Staughton, Huntingdonshire,
Escheator of Huntingdonshire & Cambridgeshire, 1461–1462, Justice of
the Peace for Cambridgeshire, 1463–1474, Knight on the Shire of
Huntingdonshire, 1467–1468, 1478, Usher of the Chamber, 1484–1485,
younger son of Thomas Wake, Esq., of Blisworth, Northamptonshire, by
Agnes, daughter and co-heiress of Thomas Lovell, of Clevedon,
Somerset. They had one son, John. She died 4 August 1466, and was
buried at West Horndon, Essex. In 1480, as John Wake the elder, he
was executor of the will of Elizabeth Beauchamp, widow successively of
George Neville, Lord Latimer, and Thomas Wake (his brother). JOHN
WAKE, Esq., died about 1496.
References:
Hasted, Hist. & Top. Survey of Kent, 6 (1798): 40–67. Lysons &
Lysons, Magna Britannia 3 (1814): 274–280. Baker, Hist. & Antiq. of
Northampton 1 (1822–1830): 129–131. Nicolas, Procs. & Ordinances of
the Privy Council of England 3 (1834): v, 20. Gentleman’s Magazine
n.s. 32 (1849): 491–493. Notes & Queries 4th ser. 8 (1871): 310–311;
5th ser. 9 (1878): 266, 409–410. Gairdner, Three Fifteenth-Century
Chronicles (1880): 58–78 (“… And on the Thorsdye, the ixth day of
Julle, was the bataylle be syde Northhampton in the Newfelde be tween
Harsyngton and Sandyfforde, and ther was the kynge take in his tente.
And ther was slayne the Duke of Bockyngham, the Erle of Shrovysbury,
the Vycounte Bemonde, the Lord Egremonde, and Sir William Lucy, and
many other knyghtes and squyers, and many comyners were drowned.”).
Genealogist n.s. 12 (1895): 233–235 (Burgh pedigree). Trans. Essex
Archaeological Soc. n.s. 6 (1898): 28–59 (re. Fitz Lewis family).
Colls. Hist. Staffs. n.s. 2 (1899): 166. Desc. Cat. of Ancient Deeds
3 (1900): 307. C.P.R. 1422–1429 (1901): 322, 342 (Margaret Neville,
wife of William Lucy, Knt., styled “kinswoman” of Edmund Mortimer, 5th
Earl of March). C.P.R. 1429–1436 (1907): 340. VCH Hertford 2 (1908):
208–214, 314–317. C.P. 1 (1910): 308 footnote e (sub Atholl); 2
(1912): 422 (sub Burgh); 8 (1932): 262–263 (sub Lucy); 14 (1998): 457
(sub Lucy). VCH Bedford 3 (1911): 399–417, 421–423. VCH Worcester 3
(1913): 58–69; 4 (1924): 246–255, 255–260, 362–371. Wedgwood, Hist.
of Parliament 1 (1936): 559–560 (biog. of Sir William Lucy), 794–795
(biog. of John Stafford), 912–913 (biog. of John Wake). Speculum 43
(1968): 589–632. Bates, England & Normandy in the Middle Ages (1994):
301. VCH Northampton 5 (2002): 413–438. PRO Documents, C 131/231/14;
C 241/230/23 (abstract of documents available online at
http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp).
t...@clearwire.net
On May 18, 5:38 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> As a followup to my earlier post today, I've copied below my current
> file account of Sir William Lucy (c.1404-1460), whose first wife,
> Margaret Neville, was the kinswoman of Edmund Mortimer, 5th Earl of
> March.
Whose wife Margaret you have speculated to have been a Neville, don't
you mean?
What is the medieval document that shows this to have been the case?
Not a document that indicates that some Neville had a daughter named
Margaret; not a document that shows that a relative of the Nevilles
was also a relative of Margaret, wife of Lucy; a document that
actually shows the relationship you claim was in fact the case. You
don't have one, do you? The best you can do is the late 19th century,
isn't it?
taf
Tony Ingham
Time to back off and entertain us with another of your "new discoveries".
Tony Ingham
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
>
>
letiTi...@gmail.com
> Time to back off and entertain us with another of your "new discoveries".
> Tony Ingham
SYCOPHANT TWITS, TAF & TI
>
TWITS, twits, twits
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/twit
English
Etymology
Originally twite, an aphetism of Middle English atwite.
Verb
to twit (third-person singular simple present twits, present
participle twitting, simple past and past participle twitted)
1. (transitive) To reproach, blame; to ridicule or tease.
• 2007: H. R. Fox Bourne, secretary of the Aborigines' Protection
Society – often twitted for being an ‘armchair critic’ – wrote in a
review of one of Stanley's books — Bernard Porter, ‘Did He Puff his
Crimes to Please a Bloodthirsty Readership?’, London Review of Books
29:7, p. 10
Translations
To reproach, blame; to ridicule or tease
Noun
twit (plural twits)
1. A reproach, gibe or taunt.
2. (UK) A foolish or annoying person.
Translations
a reproach, gibe or taunt
a foolish or annoying person
Categories: Middle English derivations | English verbs | English nouns
| UK
yes, TAF & TI you are the SNARKY LARKY TWITTY TWITS infesting these
waters,
ARMCHAIR CRITICS, SECRETARIES OF THE ABORIGINES’ PROTECTION SOCIETY,
DO YOU PUFF YOUR CRIMES TO PLEASE A BLOODTHIRSTY READERSHIP? THE TWO
OF YOU ARE WHAT IS CAUSING SCHOLARS TO LEAVE GEN-MEDIEVAL.
TWITS, TWITS, TWITS
~Bret, scion of Charle de Magne
http://Back-stabbing Ancestral Descendants ASSoc.genealogy.medieval
t...@clearwire.net
> [Ah, yes. Now we move to the next steps in the sociopathology.
> Reposting as if the entire prior discussion had not occurred, and
> crossposting to make sure people who choose not to read about medieval
> genealogy have it thrust upon them anyhow. You see, he knows that any
> responsible critic will remove the crosspost, and so at least that
> other group will be able to appreciate his genius untainted by
> reality.]
And it continues yet. He has now deleted all of his posts in the
previous discussion. Every last one of them.
This includes the post in which he says,
"I'm uncertain exactly what she saw in that source. However, I assume
she found a record which stated that Sir John Neville and his wife,
Elizabeth Holand, had a daughter, Margaret Neville, who married
William Lucy."
I guess in retrospect he considered this assumption
inappropriate, . . . . but no he repeats it again in his repost.
Maybe it was when he said:
""Ermengarde" made many contibutions to the Notes & Queries journal.
I've read a variety of her posts."
and
"Actually I'm quite familiar with Ermengarde,"
and
"Interestingly, I find that the matter of the identify of Margaret
Neville, wife of William Lucy, Knt., was discussed in print back in
1878 by "Ermentrude""
and
"If Ermentrude says she saw confirmatory evidence in the pedigrees of
Robert Glover regarding the parentage of Margaret Neville, I trust her
word on it."
and
"Ermengarde was a "plus person."
Of course, her name wasn't Ermengarde, but that would take a simple
honest correction to resolve, not deletion of the entire thread. An
apology, of sorts, was even offered:
"I'm tired tonight. Her name is Hermentrude."
Ignoring the fact that his misnaming started at dawn and proceeded
throughout the day, maybe it is the record of this dishonesty that is
being obliterated.
Or perhaps it was the reasoning, like in this more troublesome is the
comment:
"For her time, she was quite good. If she said Harleian MS. 807
confirmed that Margaret Neville, the wife of Sir William Lucy, was the
daughter of Sir John Neville and his wife, Elizabeth Holand, I think
you can accept the fact that it does."
. . . "for her time, she was quite good", yet, we are to take her word
for it rather than bothering to consult the original record.
Maybe he wants to clean his sullied record, like where he said:
"Next thing taf will say is that I haven't found Margaret Neville's
birth certificate."
and
". . . it would be best if taf didn't assume all of us
are as misinformed as he is",
and
"taf seems to think being a historian or genealogist is sitting in
your easy chair criticizing other people's work"
only to say, "I haven't attacked anyone, taf. The evidence in this
case speaks for itself. "
The evidence did speak for itself, so maybe this was the record he
wished to expunge.
Still, try as he might, the evidence is still there, in the original
thread, within the posts of those who questioned his conclusions, and
in the GEN-MED archive, so try as he might to pretend the whole
exchange didn't occur, it remains to be observed by all who wish.
taf
John Foster
personified mean if not "fat"?
I think that's what I'm going to go with. Here's a link for Medieval plus
size costumes.
http://www.partydomain.co.uk/d-commerce/fancy-dress-costumes/plus-size/medieval-costumes.html
Christopher Ingham
have half their wits about them. Posterity will likely cite
him (usually in footnotes, if at all) as an unreliable secondary
source; his incompetent and egregious methodologies will seen as
examples of how not to do research; and his efforts to redact
his records and his public image will be a subject of ridicule.
Christopher Ingham
Douglas Richardson
Below is a revised rough draft of an outline of the descendants of Sir
Robert de Holand, Knt., 1st Lord Holand, and his wife, Maud la
Zouche. I've revised, expanded, and corrected the account in several
places. One of the new additions is a new Holand descendant, Margaret
Neville, wife of Sir William Lucy. Enjoy!
I wish to thank Will and Tish for the previous corrections/additions.
Much appreciated.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
HOLAND FAMILY
A1. Robert de Holand, Knt., 1st Lord Holand, *ca 1283, +beheaded
Boreham Wood, Elstree, Hertfordshire 7.10.1328, m. before 1309/10
(contracted to marry in or before 1305/6) Maud la Zouche (*ca 1290,
+31.5.1349, bur. at Brackley, Northamptonshire).
B1. Robert de Holand, Knt., 2nd Lord Holand, *ca 1311-1312,
+Brackley 16.3.1373, bur there; m. Elizabeth _____.
C1. Robert de Holand, of Nether Kellet, Lancashire,
+1359/72; m. 1355 Alice de Lisle.
D1. Maud Holand, Lady Holand, *1356, +7.5.1423; m. 1372
John Lovel, 5th Lord Lovel (+10.9.1408).
C2. Thomas de Holand.
C3. Gilbert de Holand, clerk.
C4. John Holand, Knt., of Thorpe Waterville,
Northamptonshire, *ca 1347-49, +409/1417; 1m. ca 1373 Elizabeth
Greene, 2m. Margaret _____.
D1. (by 2m.). John Holand, Knt., of Thorpe Watervillle,
Northamptonshire, +ca 1451, m. Ellen _____.
D2. (by 2m.) Elizabeth Holand, +after 1441; m.Roger
Fiennes, Knt., of Herstmonceux, Sussex (*1384 +1449)
D3. (by 2m.). Margaret Holand, m. John Beauchamp, Knt.,
of Bletsoe, Bedfordshire.
B2. Thomas de Holand, K.G., Earl of Kent, +Normandy 26 (or 28)
8.12.1360, bur. Stamford; Lincolnshire, m. 1339 Joan of England ("Fair
Maid of Kent") (*29.9.1328 +7 (or 8).8.1385).
C1. Thomas Holand, Earl of Kent, *ca 1350-1351, +25.4.1397,
bur. Bourne Abbey, Lincolnshire; m. 10.4.1364 Alice Arundel (*ca 1352,
+17.3.1416).
D1. Eleanor Holand, *13.10.1370, +23.10.1405; 1m.
7.10.1388 Roger Mortimer, Knt., 4th Earl of March, 7th Earl of Ulster
(*11.4.1374, +20.7.1398); 2m. 19.6.1399 Edward Cherleton, K.G., 5th
Lord Cherleton (+14.3.1421).
D2. Thomas Holand, K.G., Earl of Kent, -cr Duke of
Surrey 1397, *8.9.1372, +beheaded Cirencester 7.1.1400; m. aft
20.10.1392 Joan Stafford (+1.10.1442).
D3. John Holand, *1374, +1394.
D4. Richard Holand, Canon of Lincoln, *1376, +1396.
D5. Joan Holand, *ca 1380/1384, +12.4.1434; 1m.
24.11.1393 Edmund of Langley, K.G., Duke of York (*5.6.1341,
+1.8.1402); 2m. 26.3.1406 William Willoughby, K.G., 4th Lord
Willoughby of Eresby (+Edgefield 4.12.1409); 3m. 6.9.1410 Henry le
Scrope, K.G., 3rd Lord Scrope of Masham (+executed Southampton
5.8.1415); 4m. 1415 Henry (or Harry) Bromflete, Knt., Lord Vescy
(+16.1.1469).
D6. Edmund Holand, K.G., Earl of Kent, Lord Wake,
*9.1.1382, m. Southwark, Surrey 24.1.1407 Lucy Visconti (+14.4.1424).
E1. Illegitimate: dau.: Eleanor Holand; m. Sept.
1430 James Tuchet, Knt., 5th Lord Audley (*ca 1398, +k.a.Blore Heath
23.9.1459).
D7. Eleanor Holand, *1384, +by 1424; m. 23.5.1399
Thomas Montagu, K.G., Earl of Salisbury (*1388 +Meung 3.11.1428).
D8. Margaret Holand, *ca 1385/1386, +Bermondsey Abbey
30.12.1439, bur Canterbury Cathedral; 1m. before 23.4.1399 John
Beaufort, Earl of Somerset, Marquess of Dorset (*1373 +21.4.1410); 2m.
1412 Thomas of Lancaster, K.B., K.G., Duke of Clarence (*1388
+22.3.1421).
D9. Elizabeth Holand, * ca 1388, +4.1.1422/3; m.
Brancepeth lic. dated 29.8.1394 John Neville, Knt., of Sutton (in
Galtres),
Yorkshire (+20.5.1420).
E1. Ralph Neville, 2nd Earl of Westmorland, *born
in Cumberland 17.9.1406 or 22.9.1407, +3.11.1484, m.1. license dated
20.7.1426 Elizabeth Percy (+26.10.1436), m.2. before Feb. 1441/2
Margaret Cobham .
E2. John Neville, Knt., Lord Neville, +killed at
Battle of Towton 29 March 1461, m. before 5.2.1452 Anne Holand.
E3. Thomas Neville, Knt., of Brancepeth, Durham,
Gilling in Ryedale, Yorkshire, etc., m. Elizabeth Beaumont.
E4. Margaret Neville, +before 5 May 1434, m.
before 1424 William Lucy, Knt., of Richard's Castle, Herefordshire (*c.
1404, +killed Battle of Northampton 10.7.1460).
D10. Anne Holand, *1389.
C2. Edmund Holand, died young.
C3. John Holand, K.G., Earl of Huntingdon, Duke of Exeter,
*after 1350, +beheaded Pleshey Castle 9 (or 10).1.1400, bur Pleshy
Castle; m.at or near Plymouth, Devon 24.6.1385 Elizabeth [of]
Lancaster (*21.2.1363, +24.11.1425).
D1. Richard Holand, +3.9.1400.
D2. John Holand, K.G., Duke of Exeter, Earl of
Huntingdon and Ivry, *Dartington, Devon 29.3.1395 (or 1396), +
5.8.1447; 1m. 15.7.1427 Anne Stafford (*ca 1406, +20.9.1432), 2m.
20.1.1433 Beatrice of Portugal (*ca 1386 +23.10.1439); 3m. after
27.10.1442
Anne Montagu (+28.11.1457), widow of Richard Hankford, Knt. and Lewis
John, Knt..
E1. (by 1m.) Henry (or Harry) Holand, Knt., Duke
of Exeter, Earl of Huntingdon and Ivry, Admiral of England, Constable
of the Tower, *Tower of London 27.6.1430, +drowned La Manche Sept.
1475; m. 30.7.1447 (div 1472) Anne Plantagenet (*10.8.1439
+14.1.1476).
F1. Anne Holand, +by 6.6.1474; m. Greenwich
X.1466 Thomas Grey, K.G., 1st Marquess of Dorset (*1451, +30.8.1501).
E2. (by 1m.) Anne Holand, +26.12.1486; 1m.
18.2.1442 John Neville, Knt. (*ca 1427, +k.a.1450); 2m. 5.9.1452 John
Neville, Knt., Lord Neville (+28.3.1461); 3m. 1461 James Douglas,
K.G., 9th Earl Douglas (*1426, +Lindores 1491).
E3. (illegitimate). William of Exeter, Knt.,
Bastard of Exeter, living 1463.
E4. (illegitimate). Thomas Holand, Bastard of
Exeter, reportedly executed by Warwick at Coventry, Warwickshire in
March 1460/1.
E5. (illegitimate) Robert Holand, Esq., of
Manerbier and Penally, Pembrokeshire, living 1458, m. Margaret
_____. They had two daughters, Jane (wife of John Kendall and John
Trelawny, Knt.) and Elizabeth (wife of John Reskymer).
D3. Edward Holand, Knt., Count of Mortain.
D4. Constance Holand, *ca 1387, +12 (or 14).11.1437,
1m. before 1.6.1402 Thomas Mowbray, Knt., Earl of Norfolk, Earl of
Nottingham, Earl Marshal (*17.9.1385, +beheaded 8.6.1405); 2m. before
Trinity term 1410 John Grey, K.G., of Ruthin, Denbighshire,
Badmondisfield (in Wickhambrook), Suffolk, etc., (+27.8.1439).
D5. Alice Holand, m. Richard Vere, K.G., 11th Earl of
Oxford.
C4. Joan de Holand, +Nantes shortly before 27.11.1384; m. at
Nantes before 26.3.1366 Jean (or John) de Montfort, K.G., Duke of
Brittany, Count of
Montfort-l’Amaury, Earl of Richmond (*1339 +1.11.1399).
C5. Maud de Holand, +bur. 23.4.1392; 1m. disp. dated
29.8.1363 Hugh de Courtenay, Knt. (+20.2.1373/4), of Sutton Courtenay,
Berkshire and Waddesdon, Buckinghamshire, ; 2m. Windsor Easter week
1380 Waleran de Luxembourg, Knt., Count of Ligny and Saint-Pol,
seigneur of Fiennes (*c.1357, +19.4.1415).
D1 (by 2). Jeanne de Luxembourg, +Terverun 12.8.1407,
m. Arras 25.4.1402 Antoine de Bourgogne/Anton von Bourgondie), Duke of
Lorraine, Brabant, and Luxembourg, Count of Rethel, Marquis of the
Holy Empire (+Battle of Agincourt 25.10.1415)
B3. Otes de Holand, K.G., Ashford, Chesterfield, and Dalbury,
Derbyshire, +3.9.1359, m. Joan _____.
B4. Alan de Holand, living 3 Feb. 1322, d.s.p.
B5. Isabel de Holand, mistress of John de Warenne, Knt., 8th Earl
of Surrey.
B6. Margaret de Holand, +20 (or 22).8.1349; m. before 1326 John
la Warre, Knt., of Wickwar, Gloucestershire (+about 24.6.1331).
B7. Maud de Holand, 1m. John de Mowbray, Knt., 3rd Lord Mowbray
(divorced); 2m Thomas de Swinnerton, Knt., 3rd Lord Swinnerton.(+Dec.
1361).
B8. Elizabeth de Holand, +13.7.1387; m. Henry Fitz Roger, Knt.
B9. Eleanor de Holand, +by 21.11.1341; m. Notton 8.7.1332 John
Darcy, Knt., 2nd Lord Darcy (+Notton 5.3.1356).
letiTi...@gmail.com
Tony Ingham
Interested to know what motivates your personality disorder. I'm told by
a reliable authority that cross-dressing could be helpful
I reckon you are being very unfair in grouping TAF and TI together as he
is a gentleman and I could well be classified as rough trade.
The only common ground I can spot from this distance is our aversion to
the nasty habits of D.C.Richardson. Well, so be it. Richardson must
have something about him to encourage normally quiet and well-behaved
researchers into launching unfounded? unresearched? and unstudied?
criticism in his direction.
Tony Ingham
From 'The Book of Common Knowledge' :- researcher = Wot you aint.
letiTi...@gmail.com
<snip> much gobbledygook of an unscholarly nature most unatural