Yet Another C.P. Correction: Emme de Glanville, alleged wife of Sir John de Grey
Douglas Richardson
Complete Peerage, 6 (1926): 664-666 (sub Huntingfield) has a good
account of the history of Sir William de Huntingfield, died 1290, of
Huntingfield and Mendham, Suffolk, East Bradenham, Norfolk, etc.
Regarding his marriage, the following information is provided:
"He married Emma, da. of John de Grey, by his 1st wife, Emma, daughter
of Geoffrey de Glanville and sister and coh. of another Geoffrey de
Glanville."
The above marriage evidently took place sometime before 1264, when Emme
de Grey, wife of Sir William de Huntingfield, is stated to have died.
Emme de Grey was the mother of Sir William de Huntingfield's son and
heir, Roger de Huntingfield.
Complete Peerage bases the identification of Emme de Grey's parentage
on two lawsuits, one dated 1312, the other dated 1371. In the first
lawsuit dated 1312, it is stated that "the right of presentation" to
the church of Alderton, Suffolk "descended from this Geoffrey [de
Glanville] to his sisters and coheirs (named), of whom was Emma. She
enfeoffed one John de Grey of her purparty, and the said John de Grey
enfeoffed one William de Huntingfield to hold in free marriage with
Emma, daughter of the said John." The descent of the other shares is
also given. "William de Huntingfield was to recover the presentation."
There is no indication in this lawsuit that Emme de Glanville was John
de Grey's wife. In fact, the statement that she "enfeoffed" him with
her holding at Alderton implies that this was a purchase by John de
Grey, not an acquisition by marriage.
The 1371 lawsuit is much later, and gives a much different spin on
things. It states that in 1371 William, Earl of Suffolk, and Sir
William de Huntingfield were summoned to answer Clement de Bradenham
and Katherine his wife regarding the advowson of Alderton, Suffolk.
Complete Peerage adds the following information:
"By this date the accounts of the Glanville coheirs differ somewhat
from those given in 1312, but the part concerning Grey is the same, it
being related that Emma, the 2nd sister, married a certain Sir John
Grey, and that they had issue Reginald and Emma; that then Emma died
and John de Grey granted to Emma his daughter, then wife of one William
de Huntingfield, all his purparty of the advowson, and by deed produced
in court Reginald, son of John de Grey and Emma, confirmed his father's
grant to his sister Emma."
The editor of Complete Peerage is flatly wrong to state that the "part
concerning Grey is the same" in the 1371 lawsuit as in the 1312
lawsuit. In the first lawsuit, it is stated only that Emme de
Glanville enfeoffed John de Grey, which implies a conveyance, not a
marriage, whereas in the second, much later, lawsuit, it is stated that
Emme de Glanville married John de Grey. That's quite a difference!
Regarding the reliability of the 1371 lawsuit, I find elsewhere that
the formidable historian, G. Herbert Fowler, has noted that the 1371
pleadings were demonstrably unreliable for the earlier time - Geoffrey
de Glanville's sisters are made into his daughters, for example; one of
them, Margaret, is there said to have married Edmund, Earl of Cornwall,
in order to account for the line of descent, but his wife Margaret is
from other sources known perfectly well to have been a Clare, not a
Glanville.
Mr. Fowler adds: "I cannot accept this alleged marriage of John [de
Grey] to Emma de Glanville, but he acquired her rights just as he
acquired much other property ... Dr. Farrer, when following the descent
of the lands, had evidently become suspicious of the Glanville
attribution, and had arrived at nearly the same conclusion as the
present writer, for he at first suggested that possibly John de Grey
had married Nicholaa de Lega; but his [Grey's] first wife is
sufficiently shown by records to have been named Emma, and to have
belonged in the next generation [that is, as daughter of Nichole de
Legh - DR]; and Dr. Farrer withdrew the suggestion." [Reference: G.
Herbert Fowler, "A Digest of the Charters Preserved in the Cartulary of
Dunstable," in Publications of the Bedfordshire Historical Society,
volume 10 (1926), esp. pp. 294-297].
Furthermore, I find that Complete Peerage, 6 (1926): 171 (sub Grey of
Wilton) shows that the 1371 pleadings are incorrect in yet another
matter, namely, the parentage of Reynold (or Reginald) de Grey, son and
heir of John de Grey. In the 1371 pleadings, Reynold is made to be the
son of John de Grey, by Emme de Glanville. Complete Peerage, on the
other hand, states that Reynold de Grey was the son and heir of Sir
John de Grey of Shirland, Derbyshire "by his 2nd wife, Emma, apparently
widow of John de Segrave, who d.s.p. 1230, and daughter of Roger de
Cauz, by Nichole, daughter and heiress of Bartholomew de Leigh." As
evidence that Sir Reynold de Grey was the son of Emme de Cauz, not Emme
de Glanville, Complete Peerage states the following:
"All the manors, whether derived from the families of de Leigh or de
Cauz, to which this Emma was heiress are found in the tenure of John de
Grey or of his descendants shortly afterwards."
Given that the 1371 pleadings are so flawed and of such late date, it
seems best that the 1312 version of the descent of the Glanville
estates be preferred. And, in the 1312 lawsuit, Emme de Glanville
enfeoffed John de Grey with her purparty, that is all.
Lastly, I might point out if Emme de Glanville had truly been the
mother of Emme de Grey, wife of Sir William de Huntingfield, then Emme
de Grey's brother, Reynold de Grey, would not have needed to have
confirm his father's grant of Emme de Glanville's property to his
sister. Rather, this would have been Emme de Grey's inheritance from
her own mother. But, Reynold would have had to confirm the grant of
his father, if Reynold de Grey and his sister, Emme, were both children
of Sir John de Grey's wife, Emme de Cauz, which appears to be the case.
I conclude therefore that Sir John de Grey of Shirland, Derbyshire
(died 1266) had but two wives. His first wife, to whom he married in
or after 1230, was Emme de Cauz, widow of John de Segrave, daughter and
heiress of Roger de Cauz, as stated by Complete Peerage. Emme de Cauz
was the mother of Sir John de Grey's son and heir, Reynold, and
presumably another son, John, as well as two daughters, Emme (wife of
Sir William de Huntingfield) and Nichole (wife of Robert de Tateshale).
Sir John de Grey subsequently married (2nd) at London 17 October 1251
Joan le Esquire, widow of Paul Peyvre, King's Steward, and daughter of
Thomas le Esquire, of Tideswell and Weston, Derbyshire. His wife,
Joan, died at Leyham in 1256, and was buried at Woburn, Bedfordshire.
As for concrete evidence of Sir John de Grey's marriage with Emme de
Cauz, widow of John de Segrave, Mr. Fowler shows that the custody of
the lands of Roger de Cauz was granted in 1227 to Stephen de Segrave,
whose son John had married Roger's daughter, saving the dower of
Roger's widow, Nichole. "The immediate heir of Roger [de Cauz]'s lands
was certainly his daughter Emma then wife of John son of Stephen de
Segrave; in 1230 she was left a widow and her father-in-law had
wardship of her marriage and lands." [Reference: G. Herbert Fowler, "A
Digest of the Charters Preserved in the Cartulary of Dunstable," in
Publications of the Bedfordshire Historical Society, volume 10 (1926),
pg. 295]. Mr. Fowler subsequently located the record of "a grant by
Stephen de Segrave to John de Grey, with Emma widow of John de Segrave,
of all her land of Henlow by way of dower," thus proving that John de
Grey's wife was in fact Emme de Cauz [Reference: G. Herbert Fowler,
"Cartulary of the Abbey of Old Wardon," in Publications of the
Bedfordshire Historical Society, volume 13 (1930), pg. 340].
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
mj...@btinternet.com
Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> Complete Peerage, 6 (1926): 664-666 (sub Huntingfield) has a good
> account of the history of Sir William de Huntingfield, died 1290, of
> Huntingfield and Mendham, Suffolk, East Bradenham, Norfolk, etc.
Dear Douglas
Thank you for posting this cogent and interesting piece - much
aprpeciated.
Kind regards, Michael
Douglas Richardson
As a follow up to my post earlier this week on Emme de Cauz, 1st wife
of Sir John de Grey (died 1266), of Shirland, Derbyshire, I thought I'd
post a list of the numerous 17th Century New World immigrants who
descend from this couple:
Robert Abell, William Asfordby, Christopher Batt, Dorothy Beresford,
Essex Beville, William Bladen, George & Nehemiah Blakiston, Thomas
Booth, Elizabeth Bosvile, Mary Bourchier, George, Giles & Robert Brent,
Charles Calvert, Kenelm Cheseldine, Grace Chetwode, Jeremy Clarke,
Matthew Clarkson, St. Leger Codd, William Clopton, Francis Dade,
Humphrey Davie, Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton, Edward Digges,
Thomas Dudley, William Farrar, Edward Foliot, Muriel Gurdon, Elizabeth
& John Harleston, Warham Horsmanden, Anne Humphrey, Daniel & John
Humphrey, Mary Launce, Thomas Ligon, Nathaniel Littleton, Henry, Jane &
Nicholas Lowe, Percival Lowell, Gabriel, Roger & Sarah Ludlow, Simon
Lynde, Anne, Elizabeth, & John Mansfield, Anne & Katherine Marbury,
Anne Mauleverer, Richard More, John Nelson, Philip & Thomas Nelson,
Thomas Owsley, John Oxenbridge, Richard Parker, Herbert Pelham, Robert
Peyton, William & Elizabeth Pole, Edward Raynsford, George Reade,
William Rodney, Anthony Savage, Katherine Saint Leger, Richard
Saltonstall, William Skepper, Diana & Grey Skipwith, Mary Johanna
Somerset, John Stockman, Samuel & William Torrey, Margaret Touteville,
Olive Welby, John West, Amy Willis, Thomas Wingfield, George Yate.
Douglas Richardson
The helpful new online Henry III Fine Rolls Project contains an item
which concerns the grant of the marriage of Emme de Cauz, widow of John
de Segrave, in 1230 to her former father-in-law, Stephen de Segrave.
The item is undated but is squeezed between surrounding entries which
are dated 28 October and 3 November 1230. In a footnote, the modern
editor supposes that the item is a "later memorandum," that is, later
than 28 October/3 November 1230. From this record, it appears that
Emme de Cauz's second marriage to Sir John de Grey, of Shirland,
Derbyshire must have taken place sometime after 28 October 1230.
In a second item dated 26 November 1230, the king pardonded Stephen de
Segrave the £100 by which he made fine with him for having the
marriage of Emme, daughter of Roger de Cauz.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
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Source: Henry III Fine Rolls Project
(http://www.finerollshenry3.org.uk/content/calendar/roll_030.html)
Year: 1230.
[No date]. Memorandum. For Stephen of Seagrave. Stephen of Seagrave has
made fine with the king by £100 for having the marriage1 of Emma de
Caux, who was the wife of John of Seagrave, in order to marry her to
whoever he and his heirs or assigns will wish without disparagement,
and for having custody of Emma's lands for as long as she ought to be
in custody according to the law of the land.2
Footnotes
2. This entry appears to be a later memorandum, being tightly squeezed
between the surrounding entries.
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Source: Henry III Fine Rolls Project
(http://www.finerollshenry3.org.uk/content/calendar/roll_030.html)
Year: 1230.
26 Nov. Westminster. For Stephen of Seagrave. To the barons of the
Exchequer. The king has pardoned to his beloved and faithful Stephen of
Seagrave the £100 by which he made fine with him for having the
marriage of Emma, daughter of Roger de Caux. Order to cause him to be
quit of this.