SP Correction: Sir William Douglas and his Lindsay wife [II of II]

[The...@aol.com]

Thursday, 11 May, 2006

Hello All,

In my previous post, I noted the correction needed concerning
the parentage of the wife of Sir William Douglas of Lochleven
(d. 1421). A further problem in this matter is the identification
of the wife, hitherto best known (per SP anyway) as " apparently "
Elizabeth Lindsay.

The Morton article in SP ignores further evidence on the
matter, but the subsequent Wemyss article provides the following
concerning the wife of David Wemyss of Wemyss (d. bef 14 Sept
1430):

' He married, between 1 and 4 February 1423-24, a lady
named Christian Douglas, who is described as the widow
of the late Sir William Douglas. Sir William Fraser
suggests her first husband was a son of the Laird of
Lochleven, but he had a dispensation to marry an
Elizabeth Lindsay. (see title Morton.) He may,
however, have married twice. Christian Douglas survived
David Wemyss, and married, thirdly, before 1443, Sir
James Auchinleck of Auchinleck. ' [1]

In fact, I suggest the following:

1) Sir William Douglas did have a dispensation to marry
Elizabeth Lindsay, daughter of Alexander (not David),
Earl of Crawford, ca. 1403-1415 (more likely ca. 1410/1415);

2) Elizabeth Lindsay, not being otherwise known to history
subsequently, died before the marriage occurred or was
consummated. Her place was taken by a hitherto unidentified
younger daughter - Christian, or Christiana, (Lindsay).

3) Christiana, known to history as "Christian Douglas", was
the wife successively of Sir William Douglas, David Wemyss
of Wemyss, and Sir James Auchinleck of that Ilk.

The following evidence serves to support this conjecture:

1. Association. There is an "instrument relative to contract
of marriage" between Eufemia Wemyss, daughter of Christian
'Douglas' by her 2nd husband David Wemyss ["Eufemia, filia
quondam Dauid de Wemys, progenita inter eundem Dauid et
Cristianam, nunc sponsam dicti domini Jacobi "] and the son
and heir of Sir Andrew Ogilvy of Inchmartin. Importantly,
the witnesses to this instrument were individuals known to
be related to the parties, and others not so readily
identified to date: lord Alexander Barclay of Garntully,
knight, Thomas Wemyss of Rares, John Wemyss of same [Rares],
James Douglas of Railston, and Henry Forrester of Niddry,
with many others - " domino Alexandro Berclay de Garntwly,
milite, Thoma Wemys de Reras, Johanne Wemys de eodem, Jacobo
Dowglas de Raylstoun, et Henrico Forstare de Nwdere, cum
multis aliis...", dated at Perth, 22 Jul 1443 [2].

Sir James Douglas of Railston ("Jacobo Dowglas de
Raylstoun") was the younger son of Sir William Douglas of
Lochleven by his, apparent, Lindsay wife. His association
as a witness to this charter, apparently being the
half-brother of Eufemia Wemyss, would be logical.

Therefore, it appears that Sir William Fraser was close
in his suggestion re: Douglas of Lochleven, only the
generation involved in the Lindsay marriage was different.

2. Onomastic evidence. The children of Sir William Douglas
bore common, but typical Lindsay names (Alexander,
Elizabeth). Further, as I noted in a prior thread
concerning a different conjecture re: Christian Douglas,
David Wemyss had a daughter named Eufemia, a name brought
into the Stewart and related families by King Robert II's
marriage to Euphemia of Ross - see #1 above, and the
conjectured chart below.

[NOTE: The following chart is conjectural.
additional documentation is being sought.]

Sir ALEXANDER Robert II = 2) EUPHEMIA
Lindsay K of Scots I of Ross
I ________________I
I I
David Lindsay = ELIZABETH
E of Crawford I Stewart
__I_____________________________
I I
ALEXANDER = Marjory ELIZABETH
E of Crawford I = Sir Robert
I Erskine
___________________I____________________
I I I
I Earl David ELIZABETH
I
Christian = 1) Sir William = 2) David = 3) Sir James
Lindsay I Douglas I Wemyss I Auchinleck
I d. ca. 1421 I d. ca. I k. 1449
I I 1430 I_______
_________I__________ ____I__________ _______I_________
I I I I I I I I I
Sir Henry SIR JAMES I John EUFEMIA I Sir James I
Douglas DOUGLAS I Wemyss = I John A. of I
of Lugton of I William I A. Glenbervie I
and Railston I Livingston I of that I
Lochleven I I Ilk ____I
___________________I ________I I
I I I Adam
ALEXANDER ELIZABETH Helen
Douglas Douglas
= Richard
Lovel

3. Documentary. The relationship between Elizabeth Douglas
and Alexander Lindsay, 2nd Earl of Crawford (d. 1439) was
discussed in the previous post [3]. In addition, Sir
John Auchinleck of that Ilk, the eldest son of Sir James
Auchinleck and Christian 'Douglas', was called " lovit
cousin and squire, John of Auchinleck of that Ilk ", in a
charter from his kinsman David Lindsay, (5th) Earl of
Crawford confirming a grant in 1466 [4]. Earl David was
a great-grandson of Alexander Lindsay, (2nd) Earl of
Crawford and his wife Marjory, and would have been the
1st cousin, 1x removed of Sir John Auchinleck by this
reconstruction.

This identification, if substantiated, will revise the ancestry
of a great many people, through the Douglas, Wemyss and Auchinleck
families - the Earls of Morton (5th Earl and later), the Earls of
Wemyss, Cunyngham of Craigends, Auchinleck of Glenbervie - not to
mention Alexander Hamilton, many Royals and a good many besides.

Any and all relevant documentation, comment and criticism is
welcome.

Cheers,

John *

NOTES

[1] SP VIII:483, sub _Wemyss, Earl of Wemyss_, cites Wemyss
Book, II. 47-51.

[2] William Fraser, Memorials of the Family of Wemyss of Wemyss
[Edinburgh, 1888], II:65-66, no. 50.

[3] As previously stated [SP Correction: Sir William Douglas
and his Lindsay wife, part I of II], Elizabeth Douglas,
daughter of Sir William Douglas, is discussed in the SP
account concerning Douglas, Earl of Morton, which states,
in part,

' She afterwards married Richard Lovel of Ballumby, with
whom, on 24 August 1438, she had a charter from Alexander
Lindsay, second Earl of Crawford, of the lands of Muirhouse,
co. Inverness. In this charter she is styled neptis of the
Earl, which shows that the commonly accepted marriage of her
father to a daughter of Sir David Lindsay, first Earl of
Crawford, is correct. '

If the term <neptis> is understood in its other standard
usage of 'granddaughter', she would have instead been the
grantee of a 1438 charter by her grandfather, Earl
Alexander.

[4] Alexander C. Lindsay, Lives of the Lindsays, p. 117.

* John P. Ravilious

[Alex Maxwell Findlater]

At this period a married woman would use her maiden name, to use her
husband's surname would be very unusual. So this Christian Douglas
must have been a Douglas by birth, unless there is evidence to the
contrary.

Another point, James Wemyss de eodem is John Wemyss of Wemyss, not of
Rires, the TD of the previous witness.

In my opinion Christiana Douglas is much more likely to be a sister of
Sir William rather than his widow. This would also, I think,
adequately fit the persuasive evidence.

[John P. Ravilious]

Dear Alex,

I myself would prefer that Christian was the daughter of Sir
William. As a matter of fact, that's how Sir Rober Douglas showed her
(Peerage II:272), with a few more errors mixed in.

Among the records Fraser provides re: the Wemyss family, we find
the following:

' Dame Crystyane of Douglas, the wiffe of qwylom Schir Willyame
of Douglas ', widow of Sir William Douglas, received an Obligation of
David Wemyss as his intended wife 'regarding her terce', 1 February
1423/4 [Wemyss II:47-48, no. 36]

So, the sister/daughter options do not work.

I'd discussed this some time ago with Andrew MacEwen; he had
provided a Drumlanrig possibility as a husband for Christian, so he was
of the opinion that she was married to a Douglas. I had given him a
copy of my earlier proposal that she was a Dunbar, and he raised no
objection to the theory she was of a family other than Douglas.

Cheers,

John

[Alex Maxwell Findlater]

Also you might look at Erskine in SP. There was a contract in 1400
that the Earl of Crawford would help Sir RObert Erskine regain the
earldom of Mar from the Crown. This included a betrothal of Erskine to
one of the arl's daughters, usually taken to have been Elizabeth.

There do seem to be some chronological difficulties with the Douglas
pedigree. A daughter of Earl Alexander might be too young to have all
those children before the battle of Pinkie, and it also seems to
compress later generations too much.

[Alex Maxwell Findlater]

This seems to fit with Sir William of Lochleven; I have no other Sir
William dying at the right time. However, I still don't feel that the
use of a husband's surname is warranted: she must have been a Douglas
herself. I don't think the Lindsay evidence is strong enough to
overturn this.

I would have thought that there must be other Douglas descents from
Robert II.

[The...@aol.com]

Thursday, 11 May, 2006

Dear Alex,

As to the chronology regarding the Lindsay, Erskine and other
relevant families in the period ca. 1375-1425, this is how the
picture appears to me at present:

David Lindsay = ca 22 Feb 1374/5 Elizabeth Stewart
E of Crawford I [date of dispensation]
d aft 12 Feb 1406/7 I
__________________I__________________________
I I
Alexander Lindsay Elizabeth Lindsay
born say 1376/1385 born say 1376/1385
d. bef 8 Sept 1439 = aft 20 Dec 1400
= say 1395 [bef 1410 - CP III:509] [SP V:604], as 2nd wife
Marjory Sir Robert Erskine
I I
____I______ ____________I___________
I I I I
I David Lindsay Janet Erskine I
I born say 1400/1405 born say 1401/1405 I
I = ca 26 Feb 1422/3 = [dispensation 26 Apr I
I [CP III:509-510] 1421 - Stuart, p. 451] I
I Marjory Ogilvie Sir Walter Stewart I
I of Lennox I
I I
I______________________________ I
I I I
* Elizabeth Lindsay * Christian Lindsay Christian Erskine
born say 1395/1398 born say 1398/1403 born say 1403/08
[dispensaton to = say 1415 [based on = say 1420/1425
marry William issue of 1st marriage] Patrick Graham
Douglas] Sir William Douglas Lord Graham
presumably dsp of Lochleven

Would that we had some firmer dates (a baptismal register would
be nice) on which to hang our steel bonnets.....

Cheers,

John

[WJho...@aol.com]

I think if a problem is going to arise, it may come from the chronological
tightness necessary to allow Christianna to be a mother four times over with her
first husband who d abt 1421.

Will Johnson

[WJho...@aol.com]

For some reason, I had, using old messages, determined that Patrick, Lord
Graham was born 1416/8, and his father Alexander Graham was born 1399/1401

If I can re-figure out, how I figured that out.... then I would suggest that
Christian Erskine is made too old here by a bit. I suppose it's possible that
a 20 year old girl is married to an infant, but as long as we're guessing,
I'd prefer her to be a bit older, say 1410/20 ish.

Will

[Alex Maxwell Findlater]

Those dates seem to fit in the pretty tight chronology of the Grahams,
BUT in 1424 Patrick later Ist Lord Graham was infeft in the lands on
his grandfather's death. This would normally suggest that he was of
age. He died after 1466 and his widow married William Charteris of
Kinfauns. I don't have a genealogy of that family, but given that Lord
Graham must have been born in the early 1400s, she would probably have
been too old to bear Charteris children, even if he was born as late as
1418. His father Alexander died vita patris, the last reference to him
is a charter of 14 March 1415/16.