Thomas de la Hay, of Spaldington & his wives (was Re: PCC wills progress
The...@aol.com
Dear Louise,
Many thanks for the offer re: those wills. I originally would
have taken you up on the offer re: Babthorpe, but have found it
unnecessary, in terms of personal ancestry *. Actually, I find it
unnecessary (if yet interesting) from your own ancestral perspective,
and wanted to advise you of the following:
In Testamenta Eborancensis, we find the text (translation or
translated extract) of the following agreement, dated 6 October 1433:
' Oct. 6, 12th Hen. VI. "Indenture betwixt Mr. Robert del
Hay and Johannet that was the wyff of Thomas del Hay,
of th'one parte, and John Thwaites on th'other parte,
witnesseth that Thomas, son and heire apparant of the
said John, shall marry Alyce dau. of the said Johannet."
(York Corporation Records.) ' [1]
I am not aware that anyone has established the parentage of Janet/
'Johannet', but it is evident from this indenture that she (a later
wife, and relict of Thomas de la Hay) was the mother of Alice, and
not Elizabeth Babthorpe.
* Now, if perchance you or someone else of the list has evidence
that Katherine de la Hay, sister of Alice and wife of Robert Hildyard,
was actually the half-sister of Alice and daughter of Elizabeth
Babthorpe (evidently 1st wife of Thomas de la Hay), then I would be
most interested in obtaining the text of that will.....
Hope the above (and the short pedigree below) is helpful.
Good luck, and good hunting.
John *
NOTES
[1] "Testamenta Eboracensia [Selection of Wills, Reg. at
York]," The Surtees Society, Andrews & Co., Durham
(London: J. B. Nichols & Sons, London), (53 vols. in
total series - IV pub. in 1869), IV:10n .
________________________
________________________
DESCENDANTS OF Thomas de la Hay, of Spaldington:
1 Thomas de la Hay[1]
----------------------------------------
Father: Sir Peter de la Hay
of Spaldington, co. Lincs. [2]
Spouse: Janet [1] {probably 2nd wife; relict of Thomas [4] }
Children: Katherine
Alice (-1485)
Isabel
Other Spouses Elizabeth Babthorpe [1] - 1st (identified) wife
1.1 Katherine de la Hay[3]
----------------------------------------
coheiress of her father[4]
her purparty evidently included Fenwick and Skelbrooke
(Poulson II:466) [1]
first wife of Sir Robert Hildyard[1]
Spouse: Robert Hildyard, esq., of Winestead in Holderness, co. Yorks.[3]
Death: bef 29 Aug 1489[1]
Father: Sir Robert Hildyard (-<1428)
Mother: Isabel Hilton (-<1453)
Children: Sir Robert (-1501)
1.1.1 Sir Robert Hildyard[1],[3]
----------------------------------------
Death: 21 May 1501[2]
Occ: lord of Winestead
knight, of Winestead, East Riding, co. York
Knighted 'on the field of Selford' by the Earl of Northumberland,
22 Aug 1482[1],[5]
will of his father Sir Robert Hildyard, 13 March 1485/6 provides:
' Roberto Hillyard, filio meo, xxli., quae sunt in manibus
Hugonis Hastynges militis, mihi debitas, ad maritagium
filiarum suarum.' (Testamenta Eboracensia IV:13)[4]
reference made to lands leased of Sir Robert and his son Peter:
' 1501: Inquisition p.m. of William Gunneys, clerk: (inter alia)
leases lands at Winestead from Robert Hildyard and Peter, his
son. '[6]
Spouse: Elizabeth Hastings[7],[3]
Father: John Hastings (<1411-1477), of Gressenhall and Elsing, Norfolk
Mother: Anne Morley (-1471)
Children: Katherine (-<1540), m. William Girlington
Peter (-1501), knt., of Winestead
Mary
Anne
Robert
Thomas
John
William
Adam
Edward
Hugh
Ralph
Henry
Stephen
1.2 Alice de la Hay
----------------------------------------
Death: 12 Mar 1485[3]
coheiress of her father[8],[1]
'Alice Thwates', will dated 11 March 1485/6, proved 16 March 1485/6
(Test. Ebor. IV:10-11)[4]
re: her husband:
of Thwaites and Denton, co. York
marriage to Alice de la Hay contracted 6 Oct 1433:
' Oct. 6, 12th Hen. VI. "Indenture betwixt Mr. Robert del
Hay and Johannet that was the wyff of Thomas del Hay,
of th'one parte, and John Thwaites on th'other parte,
witnesseth that Thomas, son and heire apparant of the
said John, shall marry Alyce dau. of the said Johannet."
(York Corporation Records.)" [Test. Ebor. IV:10n] [4]
Spouse: Thomas Thwaites, of Thwaites and Denton, co. York
Father: John Thwaites (->1461)
Mother: Jane Thornton
Marr: aft 6 Oct 1433[4]
Children: Jane
John (->1503)
Henry
Jenkyn
Thomas
William (ca1459-)
Isabel
1.2.1 Jane Thwaites
----------------------------------------
'my doughter Jane Stafford', will of her mother Alice Thwaites
(11 Mar 1485/6)[4]
Spouse: NN Stafford
Children: Humphrey
1.2.2 John Thwaites[10],[8]
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 7 Jan 1503[8]
of Thwaites and Denton, co. Yorks.[8]
also held the manor of Haryngham, Norfolk (per his will as 'John
Thwaites of Hardyngham, escuyer' - Thweatt, p. 22[8])
'my son John Thwates', will of his mother Alice Thwaites
(11 Mar 1485/6)[4]
text of will, proved 7 May 1507, cited by Threatt from Surtees Soc.,
Vol. II[4]
Spouse: Anne Knyvett[10]
Father: William Knyvett (ca1440-1515), knt., of Buckenham, Norfolk
Mother: Alice Grey (-1474), dau. of John Grey of Kempston, Beds.
Children: Thomas (-<1503), dvp
Edward
Anthony, of Thwaites and Denton, co. Yorks.
Christopher, of Tolston and Clifford, co. Yorks.
Margaret
Thomasine
Elizabeth
Ellen
1.2.3 Henry Thwaites
----------------------------------------
'my son Henry Thwates', will of his mother Alice Thwaites
(11 Mar 1485/6)[4]
1.2.4 Jenkyn Thwaites
----------------------------------------
'my son Jenkyn Thwaites', will of his mother Alice Thwaites
(11 Mar 1485/6)[4]
1.2.5 Thomas Thwaites
----------------------------------------
'my son Thomas Thwaites', will of his mother Alice Thwaites
(11 Mar 1485/6)[4]
1.2.6 William Thwaites
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1459[4]
'my son William', will of his mother Alice Thwaites
(11 Mar 1485/6)[4]
1.2.7 Isabel Thwaites
----------------------------------------
'my doughter Isabell Thwates', will of her mother Alice Thwaites
(11 Mar 1485/6)[4]
1.3 Isabel de la Hay
----------------------------------------
coheiress[1]
1. "The History and Antiquities of the Seigniory of Holderness," George
Poulson, Esq., Hull: Thomas Topping, and W. Pickering, 1840 (Vol I)
1841 (Vol II); II:197-198, pedigree of Hilton of Swine. II:466,
Hildyard of Winestead.
2. "Plantagenet Ancestry of 17th Century Colonists," David Faris,
Baltimore: the Genealogical Pub. Company, 1st ed.
3. "The Visitation of Yorkshire," Harleian Soc., William Flower,
Esquire, Norroy King of Arms, Harleian Series, Vol. 16, Mitchel
and Hughes, Printers, London, 1881, pedigree of Hastings of Elsing
('Hastynges..' of Fenwick, co. Yorks.) pp. 154-156, 'The Visitation
of Yorkshire in the Years 1563 and 1564'.
4. "Testamenta Eboracensia [Selection of Wills, Reg. at York]," The
Surtees Society, Andrews & Co., Durham (J. B. Nichols & Sons,
London), Vol. IV (53 in total series), 1869, see pp. 100-101 for
will of Sir Martin de la See.
5. "Plantagenet Ancestry of 17th Century Colonists," David Faris,
Baltimore: the Genealogical Pub. Company, 1st ed., p.99.
6. "The Gunnays Family of Hayton, Yorkshire," deeds and other documents
cited/translated by Peter Freeman
http://gunhouse.tripod.com/surname/gunnays.htm
7. "Visitations of the North, Part III," Publications of the Surtees
Society, Vol. CXLIV, Northumberland Press Ltd., Newcastle, 1930,
p.78 et seq.
8. "Nine Hundred Years of Thweatt Bloodline Family History," Silas
Allen Thweatt, Alhambra: Alhambra Review Printing Co., 1959,
pp. 20 (will of Alice de la Hay) et seq.
9. "Plantagenet Ancestry of Seventeenth-Century Colonists," David
Faris, Boston: New England Historic Genealogical Society, 1999,
(2nd edition, 1999).
10. "The Royal Descents of 500 Immigrants to the American Colonies,"
Gary Boyd Roberts, Genealogical Pub. Co., Baltimore, MD, 1993.
_________________________________
* John P. Ravilious
Louise Staley
Thank-you for alerting me to READ the footnotes better on
Alice de la Hay's will, had I done so earlier I also would
have seen she is not a Babthorpe descendant. However, there
are a couple of points on your descendant table below that I
want to query.
Firstly, the order of the children of Thomas Thwaites and
Alice:
I agree Jane and John were the two eldest because Jane was
the mother of Humphrey Stafford b. abt. 1480 and John was
the father of Thomas b. abt. 1477 (see below for more on
this), However, in a footnote to the will of Alice de la Hay
there is mention of a suit where Isabel refers to Henry as
her younger brother. It would also appear that William (31
in 1459 is older than Jenkyn, Thomas, Isabel and Henry. This
becomes important when trying to place Henry's family (which
is sort of a separate issue but I have more on this if
interested).
Secondly, who was the mother of John Thwaites' (1.2.2)
children?
The various (unreliable) Yorkshire pedigrees make John
Thwaites first wife (Agnes Appleyard?) the mother of Thomas
Thwaites. This Thomas married Emma Middleton 10 July 1493 at
Spofforth, YKS (PRO C 1/337/44 *). After Thomas' death Emma
remarried Thomas Merring and died before 1518.
Thomas Thwaites and Emma Middleton were the parents of John
d.s.p., Thomas d.s.p. and Isabel. Isabel was born about
1499/1500 and married William Fairfax in 1518 supposedly
after he kidnapped her from the Nun Appleton Convent where
she had been sent as an orphan.
It is my understanding that William Fairfax ended up with
the land that had formed the jointure of John Thwaites first
wife. John Thwaites will made provision for marriage money
for his daughters and lands for his younger sons but then
left the rest to "the right heirs male of me and my son
Thomas now dead." At that point there was a male heir of
Thomas Thwaites but he died leaving Isabel as the sole
heiress of her brother.
It seems to me that had Thomas Thwaites been the son of
Agnes Knyvett, his daughter Isabel would not have been an
heiress because his father John had left the land in tail
male. There is also a date problem. Thomas Thwaites was
married 10 July 1493. When was he born? His father is said
to have been born in 1457, suggesting Thomas was born after
1474 and before 1478 if he was fathering children 1495-99.
However, John Thwaites had 4 unmarried daughters at his
death in 1507 (will proved May 1507), suggesting they were
all under 15 with the youngest born in or after 1496. It is
possible that Agnes Knyvett had Thomas aged 17 in 1477 and
was still having children in her late thirties but Agnes is
also recorded as being alive in 1540 suggesting she was born
well after the 1460 implied if she was the mother of Thomas
born about 1477.
Lastly, why would Isabel have been sent to a convent, with
the Abbess as her guardian if Agnes Knyvett was her
grandmother? Perhaps my 21st century eyes are ignoring the
likelihood of religious fervour in early 16th century
Yorkshire but I am cynical enough to wonder if in fact
someone didn't want Isabel to marry because then they or
their children would inherit.
I welcome your thoughts.
Louise
* Thomas Meryng and Emott (Emme), his wife, daughter of
Nicholas Myddelton, and late the wife of Thomas, son of John
Thwaytes. v. Henry [Percy], earl of Northumberland, Robert
Ratclyff, and Thomas Babthorpe, clerk, feoffees to uses.:
The manor of North Deighton, promised to the said Emott on
her marriage with the said Thomas Thwaytes, at Spofforth, 10
July, 8 Henry VII. 1493 C 1/337/44
Any clue why Henry Percy, Robert Ratclyff and Thomas
Babthorpe would have been involved in this?
<The...@aol.com> wrote ...
> Monday, 15 September, 2003
<snip>
Louise Staley
> her younger brother. It would also appear that William (31
> in 1459 is older than Jenkyn, Thomas, Isabel and Henry.
This
Sorry, this should have read: William (31 in 1490 so b. abt.
1459) is older than Jenkyn, Thomas, Isabel and Henry.
Louise
John Ravilious
Dear Louise,
I will go through my notes and files a bit later, but as to the
specific questions below I will answer them as well as I can.
See comments/responses [interspersed] below.
"Louise Staley" <car...@bigpond.com.au> wrote in message news:<Gut9b.104631$bo1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au>...
> Dear John,
>
> Thank-you for alerting me to READ the footnotes better on
> Alice de la Hay's will, had I done so earlier I also would
> have seen she is not a Babthorpe descendant. However, there
> are a couple of points on your descendant table below that I
> want to query.
>
> Firstly, the order of the children of Thomas Thwaites and
> Alice:
>
> I agree Jane and John were the two eldest because Jane was
> the mother of Humphrey Stafford b. abt. 1480 and John was
> the father of Thomas b. abt. 1477 (see below for more on
> this), However, in a footnote to the will of Alice de la Hay
> there is mention of a suit where Isabel refers to Henry as
> her younger brother. It would also appear that William (31
> in 1459 is older than Jenkyn, Thomas, Isabel and Henry. This
> becomes important when trying to place Henry's family (which
> is sort of a separate issue but I have more on this if
> interested).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I believe the order of children, as I have them, was
the order as given in the will of Alice de la Hay. Other
than John, I had no prior independent information concerning
the other issue of Alice de la Hay by Thomas Thwaites.
Is it from Henry Thwaites (or another child other than
John) that you trace your descent? By all means, please
post what the issue(s) or other information might be that
you have concerning Henry Thwaites......
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
> Secondly, who was the mother of John Thwaites' (1.2.2)
> children?
>
> The various (unreliable) Yorkshire pedigrees make John
> Thwaites first wife (Agnes Appleyard?) the mother of Thomas
> Thwaites. This Thomas married Emma Middleton 10 July 1493 at
> Spofforth, YKS (PRO C 1/337/44 *). After Thomas' death Emma
> remarried Thomas Merring and died before 1518.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
An interesting question. Our medieval ancestors had two
interesting habits: (A) producing children (surviving or no)
whenever the opportunity presented itself, and (B) always
entering, maintaining or leaving a marriage. These habits,
in addition to being interesting, can be somewhat maddening
to those of us trying to bring (or discern) accuracy in/to
our medieval ancestry.
I have Anne Knyvett as THE wife of John Thwaites. I
am not aware (down to this point) that the name Annes or
Agnes necessarily identified another wife in his will, but
your 'Appleyard' question may indicate another solution
(either present or required).
Specifically, I have Anne Knyvett as the mother of
a younger son, Christopher. Christopher Thwaites is
mentioned in the 1507 will of John Thwaites (proved 7 May),
wherein which he provided,
' I will my son Cristofer shall have my landes in
the townys of Tolston and Clifford in the countie
of Yorke.'
The descent via Christopher Thwaites, from Reynold
Grey of Ruthin (d. 1440) [through Anne Knyvett] to the
GARD emigrant Jane Lowe has been previously published by
Gary Boyd Roberts in RD 500 and Dr. David Faris in PA 2
with erroneous identification of descent from Edward I;
this was subsequently corrected (as noted in prior SGM
posts) by Brice Clagett.
If Brice has returned from Kilkenny yet, perhaps
he would like to chime in concerning the evidence for
these generations.......
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
A number of possibilities could explain Isabel Thwaites
running off (or being carried off) to a convent; this was
not an infrequent occurrence, especially for (A) younger
daughters who were not heiresses and (B) heiresses who were
or would possibly be 'in the way'. As you said, it is
easy enough to believe that '...someone didn't want Isabel
to marry because then they or their children would inherit.'
Witness the treatment of the unwed daughters of Eleanor
de Clare (niece of King Edward II) by Hugh le Despenser
'the younger' following his death and Queen Isabel's triumph
in 1326. Isabel le Despenser was already married to Richard
de Arundel, heir of the dead Earl of Arundel - much to her
chagrin - at a 'respectable' age of 14 or so; but her younger
sisters, Eleanor, Joan and Margaret, swiftly found themselves
at vespers at Sempringham (possibly elsewhere in Margaret's
case). See prior posts to SGM on that subject.......
I wonder if the young Despenser ladies were saying
vespers with a Sicilian accent......
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Louise
Hope the foregoing (and forthcoming posts from others
of the list) is helpful.
John
Janet
Genealogical history of the Stewarts : from the earliest period of their
authentic history to the present times : containing a particular account of
the origin and successive generations of the Stuarts of Darnley, Lennox, and
Aubigny, and of the Stuarts of Castelmilk, with proofs and references, an
appendix of relative papers, and a supplement, containing copies of various
dispensations found in the Vatican at Rome, in the course of a search made
by the author in the year 1789, particularly copies of two very interesting
dispensations which had long been sought for in vain, relating to Robert the
Stewart of Scotland (King Robert II.) his much contested marriages with
Elizabeth More and Euphemia Ross : to which is prefixed a genealogical table
relative to the history
London: Printed for A. Strahan, and T. Cadell Jun. and W. Davies, in the
Strand, 1798, 488 pgs. by Stuart, Andrew
Janet
Louise Staley
"John Ravilious" wrote in message
<snip
> Is it from Henry Thwaites (or another child other
than
> John) that you trace your descent? By all means, please
> post what the issue(s) or other information might be that
> you have concerning Henry Thwaites......
>
> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
No I descend from John Thwaites through Winifred etc. etc.
But Henry may be interesting because as far as I know he has
not been placed with descendents, particularly not
descendants with an Edw. III. pedigree.
The Yorkshire Pedigrees assigns Henry a wife of Margaret
Emerson and says he had a will dated 30 June 1520, proved 2
August 1520. Henry and Margaret are assigned a son Marmaduke
who married Ellen Acclom.
So far it could be fantasy given the multiple errors in
those pedigrees. However, the PRO confirms there was a
Marmaduke Thwaites who was the grandson of Thomas Thwaites.
William Fairfax and Isabel (Alice) his wife, great -
granddaughter and heir of Thomas Twhaites. v. Marmaduke
Twhaites, grandson of the said Thomas.: Detention of deeds
relating to the manor of Smeaton.: York. C 1/407/29
Marmaduke is the only child assigned on the pedigrees to
Henry, however I believe there was another son, William who
was the second husband of Anne Savile (daughter of Elizabeth
Paston and descendant of Edw. III). This is based on various
small pieces of information.
1. Elizabeth Paston in her will refers to her Thwaites
grandchildren, Henry, Isabel, Elizabeth, Katherine and
William. These are the children of Anne Savile.
2. Anne Savile is known to have married Henry Thwaites of
Lund, d. Jul. 1520 and the children above have traditionally
been assigned to Henry as the father, however Henry Thwaites
of Lund inherited 1/3 of the manor of Breedon from his
mother and this passed to Frances his heir, similarly all of
Henry Thwaites lands were fought over by Frances Thwaites'
guardian and others trying to prove whether they were left
in tail male, however none of the Thwaites grandchildren
mentioned in the Paston will were involved in these
lawsuits, suggesting they had no interest in these lands
because they were not the children of Henry Thwaites.
3. Anne Savile also married a William Thwaites. From the
PRO:
Frances Thwayts, daughter and heir of Henry Thwayts, knight,
by Richard Gresham, her guardian. v. William Thwayts and
Anne, his wife, executrix and late the wife of the said Sir
Henry.: Profits of the said manors and one-third of the
manor of Breedon.: York, Leicester. C 1/582/20a
4. William Thwaites refers to Marmaduke Thwaites as his
brother in his 1557 will.
So I suggest William and Marmaduke Thwaites were the sons of
Henry Thwaites and the grandsons of Thomas Thwaites and
Alice de la Hay. But the generations are pretty long for
this to work. There is also the problem of who was
Marmaduke's mother. The only wife I have seen for Henry is
Margaret Emerson, of whom I know nothing about. Now every
Marmaduke of that period in Yorkshire was in some way
related to Marmaduke Thweng, either directly, or through his
relative Marmaduke Constable and yet I haven't found the
connection for this Marmaduke Thwaites.
More generally, there seems to be something missing about
Thomas and Alice. They were married in 1433 yet their eldest
son was born in 1457 and while there may have been an
earlier daughter, Jane, she could just have easily been born
in 1456 or 1458. Either way, there appears to be over 20
years between the marriage and the first child. 10 years I
can understand, but 24? Also, Thomas and Alice's youngest
daughter, Isabel was unmarried in 1486, yet she was not a
nun, she went onto marry Christopher Curwen I think, so if
she was unmarried in 1486, I would expect her to have been
born after 1470, when her mother was in her 40's?
as ever I welcome comments, although I admit in this case I
don't have much more information to give.
Louise
Diane Sheppard
Janet, the book and a supplement are available from the FHC - film:
FHL BRITISH Film 278020 Item 1.
Good luck, Diane Sheppard
Jay
are some inconsistancies, I think there was a generation you missed if
the info i was given was right. Willng to hear comments, critiques,
howls of outrage etc.
***************************************
Thomas Thwaites + (1433) Alice de Hay
had son
\
Henry Thwaites (d., 1480) + ?
1. Jane
2. Edmund
3. John
4. Elizabeth (isabel) = Christopher Curwen
Edmund Thwaites (above) of Lund d. 1500 = Joan
1. Henry(d. 1520) m (1) Ann Constable (2) Ann Seville
by (1) Frances =John Gresham by (2) no children
2. William (d. 1557) m Ann Seville->Henry, Isabel, Elizabeth,
Catherine
3. Ellinor m. John St. Quintin
4. Margaret m. Sir John Mallory (My ancestors)
5. Marmaduke Thwaites
(Children listed by parents are not necessarily in chronological
order.
Louise Staley
My query goes back to Marmaduke who somehow needs to be both
the brother of William d. 1557 which you show, and the
grandson of Thomas Thwaites and Alice whereas your
construction makes him the great-grandson. But that's not to
say I'm right either. Have you got any sources for what you
have?
William Fairfax and Isabel (Alice) his wife, great -
granddaughter and heir of Thomas Twhaites. v. Marmaduke
Twhaites, grandson of the said Thomas.: Detention of deeds
relating to the manor of Smeaton.: York. C 1/407/29
Also, there is another Henry Thwaites of Lund who is the son
of Edmond and the father of Sir Henry Thwaites who died
1520. This Henry Thwaites married Ellen Eure, daughter of
Robert Eure and Ellen Ingleby.
see
Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1502, 18 Henry VII, May 9
Westminster.
"Pardon to Henry Thwaytes, kinsman and heir of Edmund
Thwaytes, deceased, to wit son of Henry son of the said
Edmund, for marrying without licence Agnes daughter of
Robert Constable, late sergeant-at-law, and Beatrice his
wife. May 9 1502."
Because the original Henry Thwaites of Lund, d. 1480 had a
grandson (the missing Henry above) who died v.p. before Jul.
1500 and yet was old enough to have fathered possibly three
children, I had not thought that the original Henry was the
son of Thomas and Alice but belonged at least a generation
earlier as the son of John Thwaites of Lofthouse, d. 1469
and one his two wives, Isabell Ryther or Jane Thornton.
Regards
Louise
"Jay" wrote in message ...
Jay
Sorry Louise I was operating off some jotted notes and not my
database. I misread Jhn for Thm and then tried to mush in your info.
I have
John Thwaites of Lofthouse d. 1467
\
Henry Thwaites d. 1480
\
Edmund Thwaites (has siblings John and Elizabeth) = Joan
\
Margaret Thwaites( has siblings Margaret and Henry) = Sir John Mallory
Now building on what you have provided is the Henry that is the
brother of Margaret above, was married to Ellen Eure?
Such that
Edmund Thwaites =Joan
\
Henry Thwaites d. 1500 = Ellen Eure
\
Henry Thwaites d. 1520 (has maybe 2 siblings) = (1) Agnes Constable
(2?) Ann Seville?
As to the line of Thomas Thwaites and Alice and how they connect to
above I am completely confused about, as also who the parents of
Frances Thwaites is.
Louise Staley
Yes, this is basically what I have, although I assume you
meant Margaret has siblings Eleanor and Henry.
The last Henry Thwaites d. Jul. 1520 m1. Agnes Constable,
mother of Frances, and m2. Anne Savile, no issue from Henry
and Anne Savile's marriage. Living descendants of Frances.
Anne Savile then married William Thwaites d. 1557, they were
the parents of Henry, Isabel, Elizabeth, Katherine and
William. Anne Savile is the daughter of Sir John Savile and
Elizabeth Paston and is a descendant of Edw. III. Living
descendants of Katherine and probably other children.
William Thwaites, married to Anne Savile is the grandson of
Thomas Thwaites and Alice de la Hay based on the
identification he is the brother of Marmaduke Thwaites who
is known to be their grandson. The Thomas who married Alice
de la Hay is the son of John Thwaites of Lofthouse d. 1467
(I have 1469) and his wife Jane Thornton.
The placement of the first Henry Thwaites d. 1480 is
speculative, I have no evidence to support this. If John
Thwaites of Lofthouse is the father, I still do not know who
was the mother, it could be Isabel Ryther or Jane Thornton.
regards
Louise
"Jay" wrote in message ...
> "
>
Jay
> Dear Jay,
>
> Yes, this is basically what I have, although I assume you
> meant Margaret has siblings Eleanor and Henry.
night
This Eleanor I have married to a John St. Quintin, a St. Quintin I
have not been able to fit in with the St. Quintin's I have begun to
investigage.
>
> The last Henry Thwaites d. Jul. 1520 m1. Agnes Constable,
> mother of Frances, and m2. Anne Savile, no issue from Henry
> and Anne Savile's marriage. Living descendants of Frances.
>
> Anne Savile then married William Thwaites d. 1557, they were
> the parents of Henry, Isabel, Elizabeth, Katherine and
> William. Anne Savile is the daughter of Sir John Savile and
> Elizabeth Paston and is a descendant of Edw. III. Living
> descendants of Katherine and probably other children.
They are not of my lne but I like to fill in this information so I can
understand which Henry Thwaites, etc. people are talking about as
discussions progress on this forum. I try and follow many discussions
and always like to see how the folks discuss connect to my folks.
>
> William Thwaites, married to Anne Savile is the grandson of
> Thomas Thwaites and Alice de la Hay based on the
> identification he is the brother of Marmaduke Thwaites who
> is known to be their grandson. The Thomas who married Alice
> de la Hay is the son of John Thwaites of Lofthouse d. 1467
(this is a typo I have 1469 also)
> (I have 1469) and his wife Jane Thornton.
>
> The placement of the first Henry Thwaites d. 1480 is
> speculative, I have no evidence to support this. If John
> Thwaites of Lofthouse is the father, I still do not know who
> was the mother, it could be Isabel Ryther or Jane Thornton.
Yes, I have John as an "unchecked" meaning that the relationship
between John and Henry is not documented.
Well I think I have got it sorted out now, thanks for your patience.
Jay
Jay
> Grey of Ruthin (d. 1440) [through Anne Knyvett] to the
> GARD emigrant Jane Lowe has been previously published by
> Gary Boyd Roberts in RD 500 and Dr. David Faris in PA 2
> with erroneous identification of descent from Edward I;
> this was subsequently corrected (as noted in prior SGM
> posts) by Brice Clagett.
>
>
of Kempston. How does this John Grey connect ot Reynold Grey of
Ruthin ( I assume the same Reynold who was the #rd Baron Grey)?
Thanks,
Jay
Jay
> Grey of Ruthin (d. 1440) [through Anne Knyvett] to the
> GARD emigrant Jane Lowe has been previously published by
> Gary Boyd Roberts in RD 500 and Dr. David Faris in PA 2
> with erroneous identification of descent from Edward I;
> this was subsequently corrected (as noted in prior SGM
> posts) by Brice Clagett.
>
>
of Kempston. How does this John Grey connect ot Reynold Grey of
Thanks,
Jay