Re: Umfreville, Stewart, Earls of Angus

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WJho...@aol.com

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Jan 25, 2005, 3:41:25 PM1/25/05
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I was trying to bridge the gap from the dispossessed Umfrevilles Earl of Angus to the new title holder John Stewart of Bonkyl who here
http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node=Earl%20of%20Angus
is said to have been named Earl of Angus in a charter dated 15th June 1329

That source also gives me the missing link that he was eldest son of John Stewart of Bonkyl who had died at the battle of Falkirk in 1298. It doesn't specify however why Angus in particular.

After I had entered that data I can see that this John Stewart of Bonkyl's 2nd great-grandfather was Gilchrist, 4th Earl Angus (d abt 1204 ?)

Maybe there is even a closer connection to this John Stewart of Bonkyl that somebody knows.

Will Johnson

Chris Phillips

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Jan 25, 2005, 3:59:03 PM1/25/05
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Will Johnson wrote:
> I was trying to bridge the gap from the dispossessed Umfrevilles Earl of
Angus to the new title holder John Stewart of Bonkyl who here
> http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node=Earl%20of%20Angus
> is said to have been named Earl of Angus in a charter dated 15th June 1329
>
> That source also gives me the missing link that he was eldest son of John
Stewart of Bonkyl who had died at the battle of Falkirk in 1298. It doesn't
specify however why Angus in particular.


This may be incorrect. CP i 153 says that he was the son and heir of Sir
Alexander Stewart of Bonkyl, whom he succeeded in 1319.

The online account you refer to gives a list of online sources at the end.
As far as I can see, the only one of these that gives John Stewart's
parentage is this one
http://www.stirnet.com/HTML/genie/british/ss4tz/stewart03.htm
which agrees with CP (and makes Alexander's father the John who d. at
Falkirk). But I can imagine its layout may have confused the compiler into
omitting Alexander's generation.

Chris Phillips

The...@aol.com

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Jan 25, 2005, 5:49:32 PM1/25/05
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Tuesday, 25 January, 2005


Dear Will, Chris, et al.,

The creation of John Stewart as Earl of Angus was one of the
events made possible by the forfeiture ca. 1314-1329 of various lords
and nobles in Scotland for adhering to the English King (Edward II
during most of that time). Such was the cause of the last of the
Umfreville Earls losing his earldom [at least so far as the adherents
of the Bruce monarchy were concerned].

A similar case can be seen after David de Strathbogie's defection
to the English side in 1314; his earldom was declared forfeit [1] and
John Campbell, a nephew of King Robert (his mother being Mary Bruce)
was created Earl of Athol. This creation was of short duration, as
Earl John was slain at Halidon Hill on 19 July 1333 (he died without
legitimate issue).

Just as in the Campbell tenure in Athol, there is no need to look
for a hereditary basis for John Stewart of Bonkil becoming Earl of
Angus, for two reasons:

1) If there was a hereditary claim, the senior Stewart claimant
would have been John Stewart's cousin Robert the Stewart,
next heir to the throne and eventually King of Scots (as
Robert II) 1371-1390.

2) There is no proven descent of the Stewarts from the earlier
Earls of Angus. Walter the Stewart (d. 1241) married a
woman named Bethoc, whom the account in Scots Peerage
states was 'probably Beatrix of Angus' [2]; there is no
documentary evidence concerning Bethoc's parentage.

Cheers,

John


NOTES

[1] Note that summons to the Parliaments in England still were
addressed to David's grandson David (d. 1369) as 'David Strabolgi
comiti Athol'.

[2] SP I:12.

==========================================

Will wrote:

I was trying to bridge the gap from the dispossessed Umfrevilles Earl of
Angus to the new title holder John Stewart of Bonkyl who here
http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node=Earl%20of%20Angus
is said to have been named Earl of Angus in a charter dated 15th June 1329


That source also gives me the missing link that he was eldest son of John
Stewart of Bonkyl who had died at the battle of Falkirk in 1298. It doesn't
specify however why Angus in particular.

Leo van de Pas

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Jan 25, 2005, 5:59:02 PM1/25/05
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Dear Wil,
Your messages confuses me in several ways (not difficult to do :-) But
muddling through it, I think I understand what you are saying. Chris
Phillips is correct in saying that a generation (Alexnader) was skipped. But
maybe my mutterings can help.

You say that John the son of John (killed at Falkirk) was the eldest son? I
have him as a fifth son. Which already indicates that something is wrong.
This John is the 5th son, your John is a grandson.

But lets start, on my website for John Stewart of Bonkyl killed at Falkirk,
I have four sources and you may not have access to those. I have in all four
sources this John as son of Alexander 4th Great Steward of Scotland. I have
as children (probably, hopefully in the right order) Alexander, Alan,
Walter, James, John and Isabel.

I don't know whether you have access to Gerald Paget's two volumes in
regards to ancestors and relatives of the Prince of Wales? In the volume
with the families on page 511, John's son John is marked off as of Pearston,
ancestor of the Castlemilk Line, killed at Halidon Hill, 19 July 1333.
Burke's Peerage 1938 page 1065 has a nasty remark, this John (-1333) "dsp
according to Lord Hailes".

Burke's Extinct Peerage, 1866, Page 511 gives John (died 1298) as eldest son
Alexander Stewart, of Bonkyl, ancestor of the Stewart Earls of Angus. (You
have son John as Earl of Angus). I have this Alexander as father of John
Stewart, 1st Earl of Angus (obviously a new creation)., but you are on the
right track.

Landed Gentry 1972 page 859. This tells that John (died 1298) had a 4th son
James, ancestor of the Stewarts of Appin.

Hope this helps a little?
Best wishes
Leo

the...@aol.com

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Jan 25, 2005, 7:10:53 PM1/25/05
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Tuesday, 25 January, 2005


Dear Will,

The creation of John Stewart of Bonkyl as Earl of Angus in or
before 1329 (he was likely so created prior to the 15 June 1329 date,
given King Robert had just died earlier that month and 6 year old David
II was unlikely to be granting many requests) was out of his service,
and that of his family, to the Kingdom; also, due to the prior
forfeiture of the young Umfreville Earl, Gilbert, for adhering to the
English king [see G. W. S. Barrow, Robert the Bruce, p. 386].

Many creations during this period were possible due to the
availability of lands and titles after similar forfeitures. For
example, John Campbell, son of Sir Neil Campbell and Mary Bruce (and
thereby nephew of King Robert) was created Earl of Athol, following the
forfeiture after June 1314 of David de Strathbogie. *This creation did
not last, as John Campbell died at Halidon Hill in 1333, sine prole.

By the bye, just as John Campbell had no hereditary claim to the
Earldom of Athol, the same applies to John Stewart of Bonkyl:

1) If there was such a claim, the senior claimant of the House of
Stewart in 1329 would have been
Robert the Stewart, grandson of King Robert and later King
Robert II of Scots.

2) The alleged marriage of Walter the Steward (who d. in 1241
according to Scots Peerage) to a
daughter of an Earl of Angus is unproven; as the account
states, she was " probably Beatrix of
Angus " [SP I:12]. Her name was Bethoc, which has been
'anglicized' to Beatrix, but her
parentage is unknown.
Cheers,

John

Claud...@aol.com

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Jan 25, 2005, 8:42:40 PM1/25/05
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Dear John and Will,

There was a reason that John Stewart of Bonkyll was made earl of Angus. John
is correct in stating that the Umfraville's had their lands forfeited but John
Stewart of Bonkyll was a descendant of Gilchrist, Earl of Angus from whom the
Umfraville family also had a descent.

1. Gilchrist, earl of Angus living 1207
+ Maud de Huntingdon
2. Duncan of Angus
2. Maud of Angus
+Gilbert de Umfraville [died 1245] lord of Resedale, jure uxoris earl of
Angus
3. Gilbert de Umfraville, earl of Angus [1244-Bef. Oct. 13, 1307]
+Elizabeth Comyn [died February 1327/8]
4. Thomas de Umfraville
4. Gilbert de Umfraville
+ Maud de Clare
4. Robert de Umfraville, earl of Angus [1277-April 12, 1325]
+ Lucy de Kyme
5. Sir Gilbert de Umfraville, Earl of Angus
5. Sir Thomas de Umfraville
5. Elizabeth Umfraville
+ Daughter of Harold Maddason, Earl of Caithness by his 2nd wife Gormflaeth
MacHeth
2. Beatrix of Angus, Countess of Angus
+Walter Stewart, 3rd High Steward of Scotland [died 1241]
3. John Stewart [died 1249 Battle of Damietta, on Crusade]
3. Walter Stewart, Earl of Menteith [jure uxoris] [died bef. April
28, 1286]
+ Mary of Menteith
4. Alexander Stewart, earl of Menteith [died 1306]
+ Matilda of Strathearn
4. Sir John Menteith [died 1323]
3. Elizabeth Stewart
+ Maldouen, 3rd Earl of Lennox
3. Margaret Stewart
+ Neil de Carrick, earl of Carrick [died 1256]
3. Alexander Stewart, 4th High Steward of Scotland [1214-1283]
+ Jean MacRory
4. James Stewart, 5th High Steward of Scotland [ca. 1243-July 16,
1309]
+ Gille de Burgh
4. Elizabeth Stewart [1244-bef. 1288]
+ Sir William Douglas [1235-Bef. Jan. 24, 1298]
4. Sir John Stewart [1250-July 22, 1298]
+ Margaret Bonkyll
5. Sir Alexander Stewart, lord of Dreghorn [1319]
6. Isabel Stewart [died bet. June 14, 1347-Jan. 15, 1348]
+ Donald de Mar, Regent of Scotland [died Aug, 12, 1332]
6. John Stewart, earl of Angus [died Dec. 9, 1331]
+ Margaret de Abernathy
7. Thomas Stewart, earl of Angus [died 1361]
+ Margaret Sinclair

In this case it appears that after the Umfraville's lands were confiscated
they were returned to the near relation of the Earl of Angus who had adhered to
the Scottish cause. He was also related to Robert the Bruce through the
Carrick descent above.

Best regards,
MichaelAnne

WJho...@aol.com

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Jan 25, 2005, 9:44:21 PM1/25/05
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MichaelAnne thank you for this post. Can you tell us the source for making
Maud the wife of Gilbert, into Maud the daughter of Gilchrist ?
I had posted previously that this same Maud is called by "Living
descendents of Blood Royal" the daughter of Malcom Earl of Angus 1242 and his wife Mary
of Berkeley daughter of Sir Humphrey Berkeley.
Thanks
Will


In a message dated 1/26/05 1:43:23 AM GMT Standard Time, Claud...@aol.com
writes:

WJho...@aol.com

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Jan 25, 2005, 10:00:39 PM1/25/05
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"You say that John the son of John (killed at Falkirk) was the eldest son? I have him as a fifth son. Which already indicates that something is wrong. This John is the 5th son, your John is a grandson."

Leo, the website I posted declared that the John Stewart of Bonkyl, 1st Earl Angus was the eldest son of the John Stewart, Knight who died at Falkirk 1298. Chris posted a CP reference that that was not correct.

However this John WAS the fifth son of Alexander Stewart of Scotland 1214-83. So the descent would go like this:

Alexander Stewart of Scotland 1214-83
+ Jean Heiress of Butte-Arran
-- John Stewart, Knight d 1298 Falkirk
-- + Margaret, heiress of Bonkil d abt Sep 1304
---- Alexander Stewart of Bonkil d 1319
---- + unknown partner
------ John Stewart of Bonkil, Earl of Angus d 1331
------ + Margaret of Abernathy

The dates seem a little tight but possible
Will

Claud...@aol.com

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Jan 26, 2005, 12:27:19 AM1/26/05
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Dear Will,

I stand corrected on this line. I have two different ancestries for Maud of
Angus and CP verifies the line you have presented which was in my notes. Maud
of Angus married three times and had issue by two of her husbands. Here is
the corrected AT:

1. Gilchrist, earl of Angus living 1207
+ Maud de Huntingdon

2. Duncan, Earl of Angus
3. Malcolm, earl of Angus [died bef. 1242]
+ Mary de Berkley
4. Maud of Angus


+Gilbert de Umfraville [died 1245] lord of Resedale, jure uxoris
earl of Angus

5. Gilbert de Umfraville, earl of Angus [1244-Bef. Oct. 13,

1307]
+Elizabeth Comyn [died February 1327/8]

6. Thomas de Umfraville
6. Gilbert de Umfraville
+ Maud de Clare
6. Robert de Umfraville, earl of Angus [1277-April 12,

1325]
+ Lucy de Kyme

6. Sir Gilbert de Umfraville, Earl of Angus
6. Sir Thomas de Umfraville
6. Elizabeth Umfraville
+John Comyn, Earl of Buchan [died 1242 in France s.p.]
+Richard de Dover
5. Isabella de Dover [died March 18, 1292]
+ David de Strabolgi, earl of Athol [died Aug, 6, 1270]
6. John de Strabolgi, earl of Athol [died Nov. 7, 1306
-executed for treason]
+Alexander de Baliol of Cavers [died bef. 1311]
6. Thomas de Baliol
6. Alexander de Baliol


+ Daughter of Harold Maddason, Earl of Caithness by his 2nd wife Gormflaeth
MacHeth
2. Beatrix of Angus, Countess of Angus
+Walter Stewart, 3rd High Steward of Scotland [died 1241]
3. John Stewart [died 1249 Battle of Damietta, on Crusade]
3. Walter Stewart, Earl of Menteith [jure uxoris] [died bef. April
28, 1286]
+ Mary of Menteith
4. Alexander Stewart, earl of Menteith [died 1306]
+ Matilda of Strathearn
4. Sir John Menteith [died 1323]
3. Elizabeth Stewart
+ Maldouen, 3rd Earl of Lennox
3. Margaret Stewart
+ Neil de Carrick, earl of Carrick [died 1256]
3. Alexander Stewart, 4th High Steward of Scotland [1214-1283]
+ Jean MacRory
4. James Stewart, 5th High Steward of Scotland [ca. 1243-July 16,
1309]
+ Gille de Burgh
4. Elizabeth Stewart [1244-bef. 1288]
+ Sir William Douglas [1235-Bef. Jan. 24, 1298]

4. Sir John Stewart [1250-July 22, 1298-Battle of Falkirk]


+ Margaret Bonkyll
5. Sir Alexander Stewart, lord of Dreghorn [1319]
6. Isabel Stewart [died bet. June 14, 1347-Jan. 15, 1348]
+ Donald de Mar, Regent of Scotland [died Aug, 12, 1332]
6. John Stewart, earl of Angus [died Dec. 9, 1331]
+ Margaret de Abernathy
7. Thomas Stewart, earl of Angus [died 1361]
+ Margaret Sinclair

Notes:
1. Malcolm, Earl of Angus, son and heir [of Duncan], witnessed a charter as
Earl of Angus (simply) 22 Apr 1231, and is called Earl of Angus and Caithness
in 1232, most probably from having the last named Earldom in ward. He m. Mary,
daughter and heir of Sir Humphrey Berkeley. He was living 1237, when he took
part in the Convention of York, but d. before 1242. [Complete Peerage I:146]

2. MAUD, suo jure Countess of Angus, daughter and heir [of Malcolm, Earl of
Angus & Mary de Berkeley], m. John Comyn, who in her right, became Earl of
Angus, and dsp. in France 1242. She m. 2ndly, in 1243, Gilbert de Umfreville, Lord
of Prudhoe and Redesdale in Northumberland, who may, in her right, have
become Earl of Angus [SCT]. He was son and heir of Richard de Umfreville, of the
same, and did homage for his father's lands 8 Jan 1226/7. He d. shortly bef. 13
Mar 1244/5 and was buried in Hexham Priory. His widow m. before 2 Dec 1247,
Richard de Douvres, of Chilham, Kent, son and heir of Richard fitz Roy, and
illegitimate son of King John. [Complete Peerage I:146, XIV:25]

3. Calendar of Documents Pertaining to Scotland preserved in her majestys
public record office London, Vol. I 1108-1272 edited by Joseph Bain, H.M. General
Register House, Edinburgh, 1881:

#2100. 1257-1258.
Kent:---Reginald de Cobeham (Roger de Norwode and other executors of his will
for him) for the first half year, and Nicholas de Molis (Walter de Berstede
for him) for the second render their accounts. Discharged of scutage by the
king's writs: William de Wilton who married Roesia de Dover, widow of Richard de
Chileham; for fourteen fees of Robert de Dover. [Interlined above this entry,
Alexander de Baillol who has to wife Isabella daughter and heiress of Richard
de Dovor who was the heir of said Roesia; in a later hand and paler ink] [Pipe
Rolls, 42 Henry III, m.13 dorso].

4. Calendar of documents relating to Scotland preserved in Her Majesties
public record office, London, Vol. III 1307-1357, edited by Joseph Bain,
Edinburgh, 1887:

#128. March 18, 1310
Indenture bearing that whereas the king had granted to Bartholomew de
Badlesmere and Margaret his wife the castle and manor of Chilham with all its manors
in Kent and elsewhere -- which Alexander de Balliol held for life by courtesy
of the heritage of Isabella his wife, whose son and heir John, late earl of
Athol, has been hanged for treason. Whereby the fee reverted to the king as an
escheat after Alexander's death and had commanded Alexander to do fealty to
Bartholomew and Margaret, that he had done so on this day, and moreover,
delivered to them the said castle and manor appurtenant and others in Canterbury and
Kent, with £40 rent from the manor of Chilingford in Essex, and all else he had
by courtesy, for which they had paid down 100 marks and granted him an
annuity of 230 marks. The parties seals appended at Westminster, 18th March 3rd
year. [Close Rolls, 3 Edw. II m. 9, dorso]

#863. Feb. 25, 1325
Writ commanding the treasurer and barons to exonerate David de Strabolgi earl
of Athol, to whom he had granted the castle, manor and honour of Chilham on
28th November 1321, from the debts of Rose de Dovorre, Alexander de Balliol and
Isabella his wife, or Bartholomew de Badlesmere the last holder before the
earl. Westminster. [Exchequer, Q.R. Memoranda, 18 Edw. II, m. 44] On 11th April
following the earl is discharged of all his debts at Exchequer, as he is going
to Gascony on the king's service. Beauly [New Forest]. [M. 48]

#865. Feb. 26, 1325
The king supercedes all demands in Exchequer against the castle and honour of
Chilham, for the debts of Rose de Dovor, Alexander de Balliol and Isabella
his wife, and Bartholomew de Badlesmere, its' successive owners prior to 28th
November 1321, when he granted the castle and honour to David de Strabolgy earl
of Athol, grandson of Isabella de Dover. Westminster. [ Close Rolls, 18 Edw.
II, m. 16]

5. I.J. Sanders, _English Baronies_ (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1960), p.73:
"Prudhoe, Northumberland.

6. Calendar of documents relating to Scotland preserved in Her Majesties
public record office, London, Vol. III 1307-1357, edited by Joseph Bain,
Edinburgh, 1887:

#19. Oct. 24, 1307.
Inquisition [Underwrit of diem clausit extremum Gildesburghe, 13th October],
at Welpyngton, on Tuesday next before the Feast of the Apostles Symon and
Jude, I Edw. II. The jury find that the deceased Gilbert de Umfraville earl of
Angus, held the castle of Prudhowe, with park, woods, mills, fishings, and
Hirlawe and Birteley manors and park, woods &c.. as two knight's fees; also the
valley and liberty of Rede with Hirbotell castle (in great disrepair) park burgh
&c., Osterbourne, Ellesdon &c.; total £238 5 s. 4d. He held Redesdale by
defending it from wolf and robber. He also held of the heirs of Vesci, in chief of
the barony of Alnewick, as two knight's fees, the lordship of 10 vills, paying h
im nothing but military service and suit at Hirbotell. Robert de Umfraville
is his son and next heir, and 30 years of age and more. [Inq. p.m. 1 Edw. II.
no. 48]

7. Calendar of documents relating to Scotland preserved in Her Majesties
public record office, London, Vol. III 1307-1357, edited by Joseph Bain,
Edinburgh, 1887:

#968. Nov. 3, 1328
Warrant to the chancellor to issue letters in favour of Gilbert de Umfraville
son and heir of the late Robert de Umfraville, though only 19 years of age,
as the king has granted him all the lands on account of the losses of his
ancestors in 'abatement' of their castles and destruction of their lands, in the
service of the state; except the dower lands of Elizabeth, late countess of
Angus in Northumberland and the franchise of Redesdale held by Sir Robert Mauduyt
till Gilbert's majority. Winchester. [Privy Seals (tower), 2 Edw. III, File
14; and Patent Rolls, 2 Edw. III, p.2,m.16]

#978. March 31, 1329
Inquisition [Writ lost] taken by John de Bolingbroke the escheator, at Biwell
on Friday next after the Annunciation of the Blessed Virgin Mary, 3 Edw. III,
by Gilbert de Babington, Hugh de Whelpington [and 10 others] jurors who found
that Elizabeth widow of Gilbert de Umfraville held the manor of Hirlawe for
her life of the heritage of Gilbert son and heir of Robert de Umfraville. The
chief messuage with ____; 200 acres arable at 3d. each, 15 acres meadow at 15d.
each; grazing 8s. She also held Butely manor of said heritage for her life,
the site worth 12d, 74 acres arable at 3d. each; 4 of meadow at 6d. each. The
park is worth nothing in adjustment, being unenclosed.....She also held
Osterburn manor for life, the site of the manor worth 2s. [the remainder is much
defaced. Many of the lands are waste and uncultivated on account of the Scottish
ravages.][No seals][Inq. p.m., 3 Edw. III no. 30]

#1037. Oct. 3, 1331
The king commands Roger Mauduyt to deliver to Gilbert de Umfraville son and
heir of Robert de Umfraville, late earl of Angus, the dower lands of Elizabeth
the said Robert's mother in Roger's custody by the late king's commission),
with their issues since 6th July last, on which day the king had taken Gilbert's
homage though he had not proved his age, and commanded his escheator ultra
Trent to give him seisin of his father's and grandmother's lands. Westminster.
[Close Rolls, 5 Edw. III, p.1,m.2]

8. Calendar of documents relating to Scotland preserved in Her Majesties
public record office, London, Vol. III 1307-1357, edited by Joseph Bain,
Edinburgh, 1887:

#46. June 21, 1308.
The king appoints Robert de Umfraville, earl of Angus and William de Ros of
Hamelake conjointly, his Lieutenants and Guardians of Scotland. Stanleigh.
[Patent Rolls 1 Edw. II p. 2 m. 5]

#53. Michaelmas [Sept. 29] 1308. Northumberland.
The sheriff accounts for £10 levied from Robert de Umfraville, who holds the
lands which were William Duglas's (of a fine of £100 which William made with
the late king for licence to marry Aleanora de Ferrars), by writ returnable on
the morrow of the last Easter. [Exchequer. L.T.R. memoranda I Edw. II].

#873. July 10, 1325
The king commands his escheator in the border counties to Alianora widow of
Robert de Umfraville earl of Angus, her dower lands, viz. in Ovingham, with a
fishery in the Tyne [and others in Northumberland]. Westminster. Likewise
certain knight's fees and advowsons, in the same county. [Close Rolls, 19 Edw. II,
m. 34]

Best regards,
MichaelAnne

WJho...@aol.com

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Jan 26, 2005, 3:14:45 PM1/26/05
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MichaelAnne wrote:<snip>" 5. Gilbert de Umfraville, earl of Angus [1244-Bef. Oct. 13,1307] +Elizabeth Comyn [died February 1327/8] 6. Thomas de Umfraville 6. Gilbert de Umfraville + Maud de Clare 6. Robert de Umfraville, earl of Angus [1277-April 12,1325] + Lucy de Kyme 6. Sir Gilbert de Umfraville, Earl of Angus"</snip>
On this last Sir Gilbert de Umfraville I have this note:"After having defied the victor of Bannockburn, Robert was deprived of his Scottish estates and title although naturally Robert de Umfraville would not have recognised the acts of his Bruce namesake as legitimate and continued to assert his right to the earldom. Thus it was not until after Robert de Umfraville's death in 1325 that Robert the Bruce finally awarded Angus to a John Stewart. Robert de Umfraville's son and heir, Gilbert de Umfraville thus became one of the Disinherited who joined with Edward Balliol in his attempt to win the Scottish crown in 133 The attempt ultimately failed and Gilbert was never able to make good his claim to Angus, and he died without issue in 1381 when his estates were divided between his niece, Eleanor and his half-brother Thomas de Umfraville and the Umfraville's gave up on the idea of recovering their lands in Angus. John Stewart is certainly named as the Earl of Angus in a charter da!
ted 15th June 1329 although circumstances indicate that he was likely to have been granted the dignity a year or so before that date. He was the eldest son of a John Stewart of Bonkyl who had died at the battle of Falkirk in 1298 and thus from a family of trusted Scottish loyalists."
So it seems there is disagreement on whether he was actually styled "Earl of Angus" at any point. Is there a generally used moniker to style someone something like "titular Earl of Angus" ? or maybe "usurper of Angus" ? :)ThanksWill

Leo van de Pas

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Jan 29, 2005, 1:04:22 AM1/29/05
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MichaelAnne recorded :

>
> 1. Gilchrist, earl of Angus living 1207
> + Maud de Huntingdon

On my website I have a story how this Gilchrist married a sister of William
the Lion and had her killed because she had been unfaithful. CP does not
give any wife to this Gilchrist.
In Burke's Guide to the Royal Family, William the Lion has a sister Matilda
of Huntingdon and marks her off as having died in 1152 but unmarried. Can
anyone confirm that this Maud and Matilda are one and the same?
Many thanks
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

Chris Phillips

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Jan 29, 2005, 4:56:36 PM1/29/05
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Leo van de Pas wrote:
> On my website I have a story how this Gilchrist married a sister of
William
> the Lion and had her killed because she had been unfaithful. CP does not
> give any wife to this Gilchrist.

However, the author of the CP had heard the story, and commented:
"It has been said, but this is doubtful, that his wife was Maud, or Marjory,
sister of King William the Lion."
[vol. 1, p. 146, note a]

Chris Phillips

Leo van de Pas

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Jan 29, 2005, 5:19:33 PM1/29/05
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Dear Chris
But who then is the wife of Gilchrist to be referred to as de Huntingdon?
Hope someone knows.

Leo
----- Original Message -----

Chris Phillips

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Jan 29, 2005, 5:34:44 PM1/29/05
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Leo van de Pas wrote:
> On my website I have a story how this Gilchrist married a sister of
William
> the Lion and had her killed because she had been unfaithful. CP does not
> give any wife to this Gilchrist.
> In Burke's Guide to the Royal Family, William the Lion has a sister
Matilda
> of Huntingdon and marks her off as having died in 1152 but unmarried. Can
> anyone confirm that this Maud and Matilda are one and the same?

[and later]

> But who then is the wife of Gilchrist to be referred to as de Huntingdon?


I should have checked previously, but this Maud does seem to be supported -
though only as a sister of William, not as the wife of Gilchrist - she is
referred to by CP vi 642 note m: "Maud, d. unm. in 1152 (Fordun
[Scotichronicon (ed. Hearne)], p. 451)."

She will have been called Matilda "of Huntingdon" by Burke because her
father was Earl of Huntingdon (although he died in the lifetime of his
father, David I of Scotland, his father had in 1136 resigned the earldom in
his favour when he made peace with King Stephen).

Chris Phillips

Alex Maxwell Findlater

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Jan 29, 2005, 6:31:59 PM1/29/05
to
Bower actually wrote,

"Genuit eciam dictus Henricus de Hontingdona terciam filiam nominee
Matildam que eodem anno quo frater suus rex Malcolmus obiit et eciam
ipsa decessit."

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