The Ancestry Of John Steele Gordon
D. Spencer Hines
So, Gordo ---- how many individuals do you have in the data at this
site?
We may be able to help you.
Deus Vult
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing." -- Attributed to Edmund Burke [1729-1797]
Sol Disinfectus Optimus Est. Peccatoris Justificatio Absque
Paenitentia, Legem Destruit Moralem.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of
in your philosophy." ---- William Shakespeare [1564-1616] The Tragedy of
Hamlet, Prince of Denmark, Act I, Scene V, Line 166-167
All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly. All original
material contained herein is copyright and property of the author. It
may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an attribution
to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly given, in
writing.
------------------
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
Vires et Honor.
Gordon Banks
> The article(by Milton Rubincam) on Sancha de Ayala's ancestry
> is "A critique of Spanish genealogy:The ancestry of Sancha de
> Ayala(Blount)",reprinted in
> "Studies in Genealogy and family History in tribute to
> Charles Evans"(Salt Lake City,1989),263-271
> It's required reading for anyone interested in medieval
> Spanish lineages
I was sure I would find this book when I visited the FHL in Salt Lake, but
they didn't have it. Does anyone have an idea on where to find this article
through interlibrary loan or if it was printed anywhere else more easily
accessed?
Thanks.
Todd A. Farmerie
Rather than trying to get the article, try to get the whole book,
and copy the article yourself.
That being said, you should be aware that this article is
somewhat obsolete, some of the connections relying on sources
that are not to be trusted (likewise, the author includes a
diatribe spanish researchers for their lack of interest in
helping his with his project). If you really want to have fun
with your ILL department, give the following a try:
http://www.rootsweb.com/~medieval/sancha.htm
taf
taf
Nathaniel Taylor
Todd, I suppose you should add:
Todd A. Farmerie & Nathaniel L. Taylor, "Notes on the Ancestry of Sancha
de Ayala," _New England Historical and Genealogical Register_ 103
(1998), 36-48.
Nat Taylor
Gordon Banks
1. Sir Walter Blount = Sancha de Ayala
2. Sir James Blount = Anne Parker
3. Roger Blount = Eleanor (or Elizabeth) Whitney
4. Thomas Blount = Agnes Brydges
5. Walter Blount = Margaret Clinton
6. William Blount = Joan Horne
7. John Blount = Joan Sneade
8. John Blount = Jane de Lacy
9. Francis Blount = Margaret Hunbury
10. Anne Blount (b. 1597 - d. 1694) = Thomas Berwick
Thanks.
Paul Davis
of Shropshire.
Specifically, this is from "The Visitation of Shropshire,
taken in the year 1623 by Robert Tresswell, Somerset Herald, and
Augustine Vincent, Rouge Croix Pursuivant of Arms; with
additions from the pedigrees of Shropshire gentry taken by the
heralds in the years 1569 and 1584, and other sources", edited
by George Grazebrook and John Paul Rylands, published as volumes
28 and 29 of The Publications of The Harleian Society, 1889,
which I consulted in the Stanford University Library where it
has call number CS410H3.
Excerpted from pages 54 and 55 in the extensive pedigree,
"Blount", I find the couple "Walterus Blount miles" and his wife
"Sanchia de Ayala Hispana" had six children including "Jacobus
Blount, 2 filius" who married "filia Jacobi Parker de
Lellinghall". They in turn had "Rogerus Blount" who married
"Elizabetha fil. Rob'ti Whitney militis". They in turn had
"Thomas Blount" who married "filia et haeres Ricardi a Brugis".
They in turn had "Walterus Blount de Grindon" who, however, is
shown as having married "Perin filia Tho. a Barton de Webly". I
do not know whether this woman can be identified with "Margaret
Clinton", though this seems doubtful. Walter and Perin are
shown only with a son "Thomas Blount de Heref.". It is possible
that Walter Blount had two wives, with sons by each, but there
is no information here in regard to such.
The type face used in the printed edition for this
information indicates that it came from "Harl. MS. 1396", which
is the primary manuscript referred to in the title of the
publication, i.e. the visitation of 1623 by Tresswell and
Vincent..
Sir Walter Blount and Sanchia de Ayala were a very real
couple, covered also in Burke's Peerage, Roberts' book on
presidential ancestors, and other treatises. My wife is
descended from them through a different son.
Hopefully someone else has information on the second half of
this line.
- PKD [Paul K Davis]
Kay Allen AG
unreliable. A general rule of thumb is that you can only trust about two
generations before the recitor of the pedigree.
You might wish to go back to Stanford or Sutro and consult Marshall and
Whitmore on more Blount sources for you to check out.
Kay Allen AG
Nathaniel Taylor
all...@pacbell.net (Kay Allen AG) wrote:
>I find this particular Harleian visitation to be particularly
>unreliable. A general rule of thumb is that you can only trust about two
>generations before the recitor of the pedigree.
>
>You might wish to go back to Stanford or Sutro and consult Marshall and
>Whitmore on more Blount sources for you to check out.
>
>Paul Davis wrote:
>
>> The first half of this line can be found in the Visitations
>> of Shropshire. ...
>>
>> Gordon Banks wrote:
>>
>> > Does anyone have any hard source for this line?
>> >
>> > 1. Sir Walter Blount = Sancha de Ayala
>> > 2. Sir James Blount = Anne Parker
>> > 3. Roger Blount = Eleanor (or Elizabeth) Whitney
>> > 4. Thomas Blount = Agnes Brydges
>> > 5. Walter Blount = Margaret Clinton
>> > 6. William Blount = Joan Horne
>> > 7. John Blount = Joan Sneade
>> > 8. John Blount = Jane de Lacy
>> > 9. Francis Blount = Margaret Hunbury
>> > 10. Anne Blount (b. 1597 - d. 1694) = Thomas Berwick
Gordon,
You may begin by stating where you found this line, and who are the
people at the bottom--American immigrants, perhaps? We've had a number
of people on the list looking at various Blount lines (Maple Durham,
e.g.) descended from Sir Walter Blount. Does Croke (1823) include this
line?
Nat Taylor
Gordon Banks
(probably from the LDS Medieval Studies Unit, since before 1500 they
apparently don't accept patron submissions, for what that is worth)and
ancestry.com's equivalent. I started from Anne Blount daughter of Francis
Blount(not the English woman of the same name married to William Marbury,
who is one of my ancestors), an American Colonist whose descendant was
Alexander Hamilton Willard, one of the members of the Lewis & Clark
expedition. Then I found the line in several places on the internet. Here
are some of them:
Something called the Prescott chart (1902), apparently compiled by a Helen
Prescott whose files are in the collection of UNC, Chapel Hill. She misses
the Blount-Marbury connection. This may be the original source for the
others on the internet:
http://www.lamartin.com/genealogy/helen_prescott_blount_chart.htm
also, on same site:
http://www.lamartin.com/images/genealogy/blount_chart.jpg
Well presented, but most sources are AF:
http://dgmweb.net/genealogy/7/NRoots/FGS/ThomasBerwick-AnneBlount.htm
Doesn't give sources:
http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/BLOUNT4.htm
Nathaniel Taylor
eb...@gordonbanks.com ("Gordon Banks") wrote:
>Nat Taylor wrote:
>
>>Kay Allen wrote:
>>>
>>>Paul Davis wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Gordon Banks wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Does anyone have any hard source for this line?
>>>> >
>>>> > 1. Sir Walter Blount = Sancha de Ayala
>>>> > 2. Sir James Blount = Anne Parker
>>>> > 3. Roger Blount = Eleanor (or Elizabeth) Whitney
>>>> > 4. Thomas Blount = Agnes Brydges
>>>> > 5. Walter Blount = Margaret Clinton
>>>> > 6. William Blount = Joan Horne
>>>> > 7. John Blount = Joan Sneade
>>>> > 8. John Blount = Jane de Lacy
>>>> > 9. Francis Blount = Margaret Hunbury
>>>> > 10. Anne Blount (b. 1597 - d. 1694) = Thomas Berwick
>>>
>>>> The first half of this line can be found in the Visitations
>>>> of Shropshire. ...
>>
>>>I find this particular Harleian visitation to be particularly
>>>unreliable. A general rule of thumb is that you can only trust about two
>>>generations before the recitor of the pedigree.
>>>
>>>You might wish to go back to Stanford or Sutro and consult Marshall and
>>>Whitmore on more Blount sources for you to check out.
>>
>>You may begin by stating where you found this line, and who are the
>>people at the bottom--American immigrants, perhaps? We've had a number
>>of people on the list looking at various Blount lines (Maple Durham,
>>e.g.) descended from Sir Walter Blount. Does Croke (1823) include this
>>line?
>
>I don't know Croke. I found the line first, using ancestral file (AF)
>(probably from the LDS Medieval Studies Unit, since before 1500 they
>apparently don't accept patron submissions, for what that is worth)and
>ancestry.com's equivalent. I started from Anne Blount daughter of Francis
>Blount(not the English woman of the same name married to William Marbury,
>who is one of my ancestors), an American Colonist whose descendant was
>Alexander Hamilton Willard, one of the members of the Lewis & Clark
>expedition. Then I found the line in several places on the internet. Here
>are some of them:
>
>Something called the Prescott chart (1902), apparently compiled by a Helen
>Prescott whose files are in the collection of UNC, Chapel Hill. She misses
>the Blount-Marbury connection. This may be the original source for the
>others on the internet:
>
>http://www.lamartin.com/genealogy/helen_prescott_blount_chart.htm
>
>also, on same site:
>
>http://www.lamartin.com/images/genealogy/blount_chart.jpg
Gordon, thank you. I was not familiar with the source for these
connections, which appears to be a single typeset large-format chart:
"The BLOUNT AND BLUNT Pedigree Chart, by Helen M. Blount Prescott (1902.
Press of W.F. Roberts, Washington, DC),"
as discussed and presented at the websites you've shown.
Surely most, if not all, of the English portions of this work derive
from the voluminous 19th-century compiled genealogical account of these
Blounts:
Alexander Croke, _Genealogical history of the Croke family, originally
named Le Blount_, 2 vols. (Oxford, 1823).
Croke is necessary to consult as a starting point, although the irony is
that the whole thing was published to support his claim that his Croke
family was descended from these Blounts, which is apparently not true;
but it remains the first detailed and important source for
reconstruction of the late medieval Blounts.
Now, I am not aware of any published *discussion or evidence*, in Croke
or elsewhere, of the alleged American agnate Blount lines (one in
Andover, Mass., and another in Virginia / North Carolina).
In our 1997 article on Sancha de Ayala, Todd & I mentioned the alleged
line to Andover, Mass. (but I had only found it in a source postdating
the 1902 chart). I have yet to see any evidence for either line, or
even the 'original' publication of these claims (if they predate the
1902 chart).
Nat Taylor
Nathaniel Taylor
>Thanks. So it appears we'd have to go back and try to find what Croke
>found, since he didn't document his sources.
Actually, Croke does document a great deal of his material (with
citations and quotations from many published and unpublished record
sources): a very good work indeed for 1823, except for the fact that
his own connection to the Blount family was actually incorrect!
However, I doubt the American immigrants are mentioned in Croke, but
it's worth checking. The nearest copy of Croke to me is over an hour
away, and it will have to languish low down on my 'to-do' list for
the next several weeks at least. To do it right, to see whether the
immigrant connections were published before the 1902 chart, one
should check the papers of the chart's author, which are discussed on
one of the websites you cited. The bottom line is that I always
presume that such identifications are a result of the
"name's-the-same" fallacy until proven otherwise.
>Looks like it is beyond what I can or am willing to do to establish
>a royal connection for Willard, especially since I found one for
>Meriwether Lewis already.
This is an understandable reaction, though it's worth a review for
other Blount descendants in New England and in the South. Colket,
Roberts and others have shown that Sir Walter Blount and Sancha de
Ayala have a large number of American colonial immigrant descendants
(esp. through the Sutton-Dudleys). It would be good to confirm or
eliminate other alleged immigrants sharing this line.
Nat Taylor
Tim Powys-Lybbe
paulk...@earthlink.net (Paul Davis) wrote:
> The first half of this line can be found in the Visitations
> of Shropshire.
>
> Specifically, this is from "The Visitation of Shropshire,
> taken in the year 1623 by Robert Tresswell, Somerset Herald, and
> Augustine Vincent, Rouge Croix Pursuivant of Arms; with
> additions from the pedigrees of Shropshire gentry taken by the
> heralds in the years 1569 and 1584, and other sources", edited
> by George Grazebrook and John Paul Rylands, published as volumes
> 28 and 29 of The Publications of The Harleian Society, 1889,
> which I consulted in the Stanford University Library where it
> has call number CS410H3.
From reading other visitations, I thought I would look this up. So
I have gone through the preface to this volume, as I have for a few
other of the so-called Visitation volumes. The trouble is that this
volume was _NOT_ taken from the visitation records but from early
handwritten copies or additions to copies of the originals. The College
of Arms held, and holds, the originals and in those days had a formal
policy of not releasing the originals to editors from the Harleian
Society.
While the data in the originals might be defective, the copied and
edited data will be even more so. It is to be hoped that one day, and
I believe they are changing their policies, the College of Arms will
allow the Harleain Society to publish the actual Visitation records.
For instance, the 1993 publicaiton of the Oxford Visitation of 1669 and
1675 was in fact made from probable original which is in the hands of
the College of Arms.
<snip>
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a patchwork of bygones: http://powys.org