Sir Hugh de Babington (d. 1296) and William Giffard, Archbp. of York
The...@aol.com
Dear Rosie, Louise, Chris, Doug, Richard, Ivor, Jerry, et al.,
While looking for another article, I came upon two items of
interest in The Genealogists' Magazine. The first was an article on
Pedigrees of Villeins and Freemen in the 13th Century, 'Being a
lecture delivered to the Society [of Genealogists] by Miss Helen Cam,
on Saturday, January 21st, 1933' [1]. The second was an article by
G. A. Moriarty, in response to the Cam article, in which he made 'a
few additions and corrections to her chart' [2].
The chart in question was one which Miss Cam used to illustrate
relationships (as then identified, some in error) between John
Giffard of Brimpsfield (d. 1299) and the family of Giffard of Boyton
[Gen. Mag. VI:305]. I give that portion of the chart only from Hugh
Giffard of Boyton and his wife Sybil de Cormeilles below {Moriarty's
corrections having made the earlier portion of the chart of little
value, here or elsewhere}:
Hugh Giffard = Sybil de Cormeilles
Constable of the Tower I d. before 1279
1236; d. 1246 I
_______________________________I___________________________
I I I I I I I I
Walter Godfrey William Agatha Mabel Letitia Juliana I
Abp. of Bp. of Sheriff Abbess Babington Abbess I
York Worcester of of I of I
d.1279 d.1301 Norfolk Shaftesbury I Wilton I
& Suffolk ________________I ________________I
1270-4 I I I
d.bef 1301 I Maud Alice de
= Catherine I de Evreux Mandeville
I _______I__ __________I _____I____
I I I I I I I
John d.1319 Hugh Thomas John William Walter Sybil de
I Babington Arch- o.s.p. Boderingham
V deacon of 1288
Giffards of Gloucester
Weston-sub-Edge 1288-98
As I noted above, Moriarty's additions and corrections to the
chart have to do with erroneous filiations in the earlier generations
(e.g., Hugh of Boyton is shown by Miss Cam as a younger son of a
Thomas Giffard, who fl. 1195 - Elias Giffard 'IV' of Brimpsfield
[father of John of Brimpsfield] is likewise erroneously given as
elder son of this Thomas). There is no mention by Moriarty of any
error in the issue of Hugh Giffard of Boyton as given in the chart
(above).
Three interesting relationships/identifications in this chart,
then, are:
1. "magistro J. de Ebroyc', nepoti meo ", nephew mentioned
in the will of Godfrey Giffard, bishop of Worcester, is
identified as 'John d'Evreux, archdeacon of Gloucester
1288-98'.
2. Hugh de Babington, concerning whose relationship to
William (and Godfrey) Giffard this thread originated,
is given as son (at least the elder of two) of _____
Babington by Letitia, sister of the Giffard bishops:
this would place him obviously as their nephew, as
elsewhere identified [see earlier posts in this thread]
but which is not explicitly set forth in any contemporary
document seen thus far.
3. Alice Giffard (elsewhere identified as a sister of the
Giffard bishops) is shown in the chart as having married
______ de Mandeville, and being by same the mother of
Sibyl/Sibilla de Mandeville, later wife of Henry de
Bodrugan [Boderingham]. If this filiation is correct,
this places Hugh Giffard of Boyton and Sibyl de
Cormeilles in the ancestry of Elizabeth Beauchamp [(b. bef.
1349, d aft. 1409) who m. William Fortescue (d. aft. 1409)],
and doubtless many other noted Bodrugan descendants.
Hope this is of interest.
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] Helen Cam, Pedigrees of Villeins and Freemen in the 13th Century
(The Genealogists' Magazine VI:299 et seq. (Sept. 1933)).
[2] G. Andrews Moriarty, Giffard of Brimpsfield (The Genealogists'
Magazine VII:110-111 (No. 3, Sept 1935)).
* John P. Ravilious
Louise Staley
<snip>
>
> 3. Alice Giffard (elsewhere identified as a sister of the
> Giffard bishops) is shown in the chart as having married
> ______ de Mandeville, and being by same the mother of
> Sibyl/Sibilla de Mandeville, later wife of Henry de
> Bodrugan [Boderingham]. If this filiation is correct,
> this places Hugh Giffard of Boyton and Sibyl de
> Cormeilles in the ancestry of Elizabeth Beauchamp [(b. bef.
> 1349, d aft. 1409) who m. William Fortescue (d. aft. 1409)],
> and doubtless many other noted Bodrugan descendants.
Dear John,
Yet another interesting and provocative post and the second in the same day
from you to include lines of interest to me. I had seen the Mandeville
claim for Henry Bodrugan's wife before but the Giffard connection is new
for me. I don't suppose you have any hints of which Mandeville married
Sibyl?
I don't have the connections to make Hugh Giffard and Sibyl Cormeilles
ancestors of Elizabeth Beauchamp who married William Fortescue. However, if
the affiliation is correct then Hugh Giffard and Sibyl Cormeilles are
ancestral to the Bonvilles of Shute, including William, Lord Bonville and
the Grenvilles of Bideford amongst many others.
I only have the following ancestry for the Elizabeth Beauchamp who married
William Fortescue. Is this wrong, or is it one (of the many blanks) which
provides the link to the Bodrugans?
1. Elizabeth Beauchamp of Rhyme, was born before 1349 and died after 1409
in Whympston, DEV, ENG.
2. Sir John Beauchamp Lord of Rhyme, 3rd, was born about 1315 and died on
8 Apr 1349.
3. Margaret Whalesborough.
4. Sir John Beauchamp Lord of Rhyme 2nd, was born about 1285 and died
between 1337 and 1346.
5. Alice Nonant, was born before 1295 and died after 1344.
6. John Whalesborough .
8. Sir Humphrey Beauchamp Lord of Rhyme 1st, was born before Mar 1252 and
died before 18 Jun 1316.
9. Sibyl Oliver, died after 1306.
10. Sir Roger Nonant Lord of Cliston or Brode Clist .
16. Robert Beauchamp Lord of Hache 2nd, was born in 1219 and died before
25 Oct 1263.
17. Alice Mohun, was born about 1228 and died before 1284.
18. Walter Oliver Lord of Wambrook .
32. Robert Beauchamp Lord of Hache 1st, was born about 1190 and died on 1
Feb 1252.
33. Juliana Dourton, was born about 1200.
34. Renaud Mohun Lord of Dunster, was born about 1206, died on 20 Jan 1258
in Torre Mohun, DEV, ENG, and was buried in Newenham Abbey, DEV, ENG.
35. Hawis Fitz Geoffrey, died before 1243.
Louise
Sutliff
If you are not in a big hurry, I have a massive number of pages photocopied
from Smyth's Trigg Minor. There might be something among this. I do not
recall which Devonshire families are covered and have not yet reviewed them
for inclusion in my notes.
Hap
"Louise Staley" <car...@bigpond.com.au> wrote in message
news:ThrTb.39799$Wa.2...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
<snip>>
The...@aol.com
Dear Louise, Hap, et al.,
I have not verified the connection drawn below, but it appears
from this line presented a while back by Pat Patterson that
Sybil/Sibilla de Mandeville, wife of Henry de Bodrugan, was an
ancestress of Elizabeth Beauchamp. It is certainly possible this
line has been disproven (this was drawn from the SGM archives,
without further vouching).
Should anyone have further details or documentation (pro or
con), that would certainly be of interest.
Cheers,
John *
_________________________________
From: Pat Patterson (pat...@nyc.rr.com)
Subject: Re: Pedigree of Elizabeth Beauchamp
View: Complete Thread (9 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: 2001-02-23 01:30:04 PST
> Does anyone have a pedigree for Elizabeth Beauchamp (b bef. 1349, d aft.
> 1409) who married William Fortescue (d aft. 1409)?
I have this. Dave Utz previously posted that Joan #5 was Joan Nonant. I
don't have that info.
And questions to add:
1) I have #3 as Joan W(h)alesborough with a note that AR calls her Margaret.
Any certainty?
2) Can anyone offer some sources for this W(h)alesborough line?
3) Does someone have the ancestry of Margaret de Champernown, #15 below?
4) It seems this Sibyl de Mandeville can't be placed: or is there further
thought on that?
Pat Patterson, pat...@nyc.rr.com
Ahnentafel of Elizabeth Beauchamp
--- 1st Generation ---
1. Elizabeth BEAUCHAMP. Bornbefore 1349. Died after 1410.
--- 2nd Generation ---
2. Sir John BEAUCHAMP Lord of Ryme (DOR) Lord of Oburnford, Oulescombe,
Teignhervy & Buckerell (DEV) Born circa 1315. Died on 8 Apr 1349.
3. Joan WALESBOROUGH.
--- 3rd Generation ---
4. Sir John DE BEAUCHAMP Born circa 1285 Married Joan (----) before 1312
(by 1311/2) . Died after 1337, presumed dead by 1346.
5. Joan (----) Born before 1295. Died before 1344.
6. John WALESBOROUGH. Married Joan DE BODRUGAN Died in 1362.
7. Joan DE BODRUGAN. Born before 1331.
--- 4th Generation ---
8. Sir Humphrey DE BEAUCHAMP. Lord of Ryme Intrinseca (DOR) Lord of
Oburnford, Oulescombe, Teignhervy & Buckerell (DEV) Born before Mar 1253
Married Sibyl OLIVER before 1254. In 1274. "served overseas" Property:
Ryme, Dorset. Served "by military summons against the Scots, as holding £40
Somerset & Dorset lands" Humphrey and Sibyl OLIVER were divorced between
1287 and 1290. Married Alice (----) after 10 Aug 1300. In 1312 Knight of
the shire for Devon. In 1313 Knight of the shire for Devon and Dorset.
"dead 1317".
9. Sibyl OLIVER Born Wambrook, Somerset
14. Otto I DE BODRUGAN. Born on 6 Jan 1290. Died on 6 Sep 1331 at age 41.
.
15. Margaret DE CHAMPERNOWN Margaret DE CAMPO ARNULPHI. Born circa 1300
Married Otto I DE BODRUGAN Died in 1360
.
--- 5th Generation ---
16. Robert V DE BEAUCHAMP. Born circa 1223. Justice in Eyre for the
Western Counties. "Amongst their holdings of land in Somerset were Hache,
Marston Magna, Shepton and Stoke- sub-Hamdon." source = Hatch Beauchamp
website http://www.weavo.co.uk/hatch/. Died in 1264 (Sanders, Baronies.).
Dead by 1265/6 (Weis, AR.).
17. Alice DE MOHUN. Born circa 1228. Married William DE CLINTON the
younger (she married as young child). Married Robert V DE BEAUCHAMP before
1246 (Weis, AR.). Died before 1284.
18. Walter OLIVER Lord of Wambrook (SOM).
28. Sir Henry III DE BODRUGAN. Born circa 1263 (Ibid.) (Elliott-Binns, Med
CON.). Died in 1308 (Whetter, Bodrugans.).
29. Sybil / Sibella DE MANDEVILLE (Elliott-Binns, Med CON.) (Whetter,
Bodrugans.). Born circa 1250 (rough guestimate) (Elliott-Binns, Med CON.).
Married NN POUWERS / PONWERS (first husband) (Elliott-Binns, Med CON.).
Married Sir Henry III DE BODRUGAN circa 1287 (Whetter, Bodrugans.)
(Elliott-Binns, Med CON.).
--- 6th Generation ---
32. Robert DE VALLETORT > DE BEAUCHAMP (Sanders, Baronies.). Robert IV DE
BEAUCHAMP (Weis, AR.). Lord of Hatch Beauchamp (SOM) Robert DE VALLETORT
(Sanders, Baronies.). Born circa 1191 D M (of age) (Sanders, Baronies.).
Died in 1251.
34. Renaud / Reynold DE MOHUN (Weis, AR.). Born circa 1206 D M (a minor)
(Weis, AR.). D M (a minor) (Weis, AR.). Lord of Dunster (SOM) Married
Hawise Fitz Geoffrey DE MANDEVILLE before 1227 (first wife) (Weis, AR.).
Justice of Common Pleas. Chief Justice of Forests south of the Trent. Died
on 20 Jan 1258 Torre Mohun, Devonshire, 1257/8. Buried Newenham Abbey.
35. Hawise Fitz Geoffrey DE MANDEVILLE Hawise FITZ GEOFFREY. Property:
manor of Streatley, Berkshire, received "from half-brother, Wm de
Mandeville, Earl of Essex" Born circa 1210? Married Renaud / Reynold DE
MOHUN before 1227 (first wife) (Weis, AR.). Died before 1243.
56. Roger DE BODRUGAN (Whetter, Bodrugans.). Born after 1250. Married
Isolde DE PYN between 1260 and 1269 Cornwall. Died in 1277.
57. Isolde DE PYN Born before 1250 Married Henry DE POMEROY before 1260
Married Roger DE BODRUGAN between 1260 and 1269 Cornwall "In the 1260s
Philip's son, Roger, wed Isolde, the widow of Henry le Pomerai and dau of
Simon de Pyn. She was also the great-niece of Stephen Heym, steward of the
earl of Cornwall in the 1260s and a prominent ecclesiastic" (Whetter,
Bodrugans.). Died in 1311
Sutliff
but in Smyth's Trigg Minor, p. 554-5 (Parish of St. Endellion) the Bodrigan
pedigree is given. Sibyl is called sister and heir of Walter de Mandeville.
No sources for this given.
I have Whetter somewhere, but cannot locate it at the moment. Sorry.
HS
<The...@aol.com> wrote in message news:a2.41f17cd...@aol.com...
Todd A. Farmerie
> 2. Sir John Beauchamp Lord of Rhyme, 3rd, was born about 1315 and died on
> 8 Apr 1349.
> 4. Sir John Beauchamp Lord of Rhyme 2nd, was born about 1285 and died
> between 1337 and 1346.
>
> 5. Alice Nonant, was born before 1295 and died after 1344.
> 10. Sir Roger Nonant Lord of Cliston or Brode Clist .
This has been questioned - apparently 4. Sir John was marreid to
another woman as well, and as Roger Nonant and wife Isabel passed
much of their property (and specifically Broadclist) to Joan,
daughter of John and Alice, it has been interpreted as indicating
that she was heiress of her mother, and that the son of John was
by the other wife. This is particularly pursuasive considering
that Broadclist passed out of the Nonant descendants, and no
claim was put forward by the Beauchamps, who otherwise would have
been the natural heirs.
taf
Gordon Kirkemo
I've been out of town and I'm just catching up on my messages. I noted your
posting below and I'm hoping you might post that Bodrigan pedigree to the
group. I have Henry de Chambernon married to Joan Bodrigan, daughter of Sir
Henry Bodrigan. My sources are AR7, Line 124A, and a 1999 posting by Ronny
Bodine. After reviewing the earlier message from Pat Patterson that John
referenced, I believe the father of Joan was Sir Henry III (#28) in Pat's
listing. Ronny's message makes reference to Otto (#14 in Pat's list) and
the context suggests this Sir Henry is Joan's father.
Does your Bodrigan pedigree match that posted by Pat (Otto I, Henry III,
Roger, Philip I, Henry II), and can you add anything further from the source
you cite?
Thanks,
Gordon Kirkemo
HS
______________________________
Rosie Bevan
Today I took a flying visit into the library to look in the register of
Archbishop Walter Giffard [W. Brown (ed), 'The Register of Walter Giffard,
Archbishop of York, 1266-1279' (Surtees Society Publication, vol. 109)].
An entry by the archbishop instructing payments, gives direct evidence that
Hugh de Babington was his nephew. The entry also mentions another nephew
called Robert de Estcote who was later a valet of the archbishop.
"DI. 3 non. Oct, anno 4, (Oct 5 1270). Notingham. To W., bailiffe of
Suwelle. Pay our nephew, Hugh de Babington, 11 li. 18s. 3d. "ad negotia
nostra in castro Noting' expedienda"; also our valet, Richard de Button, 100
li. for household expenses ; also our nephew, Robert de Estcot', 20 li., 'ad
negotia nostra in nundinis s. Botulfi expedienda." " [p.122]
Between Dec 1268 and April 1270 Hugh de Babington acted as valet for Walter
Giffard, and was in receipt of money for expenses for the upkeep of the
archbishop's household. In 1269 alone these amounted to over £280, which
indicates that Walter Giffard kept a princely establishment. By 1274/75 Hugh
was the bishop's seneschal.
"Feb 12 1274/75. Cawode.
Appointment by the archbishop of his seneschal Hugh de Babington, and Sir E.
de saxton and sir Simon Warde, as his justices for taking assizes of novel
disseisin within his liberty of Ripon and beverley." [p.273]
On 20 July 1268 Alice the archbishop's sister received a gift of money.
"Pay our dear sister, the lady Alice de Maundeville, ten marks, and the lady
Maude de Tywe ten marks." [p.127].
Walter also paid a debt of his mother on 6 May 1268, "...Roberto de
Mumpeillers xxxiiij s. vj d. pro debitis dominae Sibillae Gyffard, matris
nostrae..." [p.126]
Other gifts included one to Thomas de Babington for 40s., and Agatha Giffard
for 27 s.[p.124].
No doubt a longer study of the volume will reveal more relationships, but
for now at least we are getting somewhere with the evidence.
Cheers
Rosie
p.
John Ravilious
Dear Rosie,
Thanks for that information - I'm glad your fossick
turned up some useful ore.
The references to Hugh de Babington and Alice (Giffard)
de Mandeville are important steps in confirming the
relationships to the Bishops Giffard given in Cam's chart
(previously discussed). Hopefully, the
Giffard-Mandeville-Bodrugan connection will be proven in
this connection.
Good luck, and good hunting!
John
rbe...@paradise.net.nz (Rosie Bevan) wrote in message news:<0a0901c3f045$5d2b6300$cd00a8c0@rosie>...